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blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 107
Today's Topics:
[B7L] Re: Motivations, Justifications and Science
[B7L] Apologies...
[B7L] Blake's Legacy
Re: [B7L] Daily Star
Re: [B7L] Apologies...
[B7L] Together Again Seven
[B7L] Zenith
Re: [B7L] Re: Motivations, Justifications and Science
the age
Re: [B7L] First impressions: "Duel"
Motivations, etc.
Subject:
[B7L] Re: Motivations Justifications and Science
[B7L] Re: Motivations Justifications and Science.
[B7L] Re: Motivations Justifications and Science.
[B7L] Re: Motivations Justifications and Science.
Re: [B7L] Just another filk
[B7L] TTFN
[B7L] Rand and Avon
[B7L] Anna
[B7L] Carrying Concealed
[B7L] Possessions
Re: [B7L] Re: UnAmerican Activities
[B7L] Catching up on the backlog of Digests...
Re: [B7L] Catching up on the backlog of Digests...
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:13:01 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Motivations, Justifications and Science
Message-ID: <000501bfa3d9$337687e0$a5604e0c@dshilling>
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Speaking to gnog's question of the balance between intention and "must
finish this essay--it's due tomorrow" in B7 production: There is a theory
that Shakespeare's original actors never rehearsed--they just got handed
their cues and lines, went off and memorized them, then threw it all
together for the performance. I don't think this was true, but I can't help
suspecting that something of the sort went on at the Beeb.
What fascinates me is the range of disparity between the best and the worst
episodes--somebody must have approved all the scripts. (And somewhere there
must be some that were submitted and rejected for falling below the
Vogon-poetry watermark that actually got Ultraworld accepted--we've got to
find the repository and destroy them before they fall into the wrong hands!)
As I work my way through the tape series, I've just seen Terminal/Rescue, so
Power/Traitor is next. Ultraworld doesn't seem to appear on anybody's "worst
eps of all time" listings, so I know that worse is yet to come. How could
anybody commission a script as good as Terminal (and as unAmerican--having
Cally die offstage in yet another tunnel collapse, instead of going down
with the ship to operate the teleport one last time) and as bad as [fill in
your own choice].
-(Y)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:21:16 EDT
From: RCalla6725@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se (b7)
Subject: [B7L] Apologies...
Message-ID: <4a.3e9b737.2624c71c@aol.com>
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... I've been hitting "reply" to send messages to this B7 list... it doesn't
work like that, does it? Must remember to hit "reply all" next time... people
must be wondering what I'm doing mailing them individually, apologies to all!
Anyway, my points, for what they're worth (ie. very little) were:
<< In a message dated 09/04/00 14:41:17 GMT Daylight Time,
ariana@ndirect.co.uk writes:
<< The studio set for the alien planet was suitably creepy, IMHO. It was also
pretty cold, judging by Isla Blair's costume. >>
I'm glad someone else pointed this out as I didn't want to be the one to do
it... it was almost as distracting as the old lady spitting every time she
said a line, but not quite.
From the messages I've read on the list so far, I've seen that the members
generate intelligent, insightful commentary. As I can't do this, I thought
I'd just give two puerile observations on the episode at hand:
1. Vila - "I don't mind rough, it's fatal I'm not too keen on". I think it's
the way Michael Keating tells 'em that makes me laugh so much.
2. Travis. Just a thought. Do you think the psychotic Travis was named after
the psychotic Travis Bickle, this series being made just two years after Taxi
Driver?
In a message dated 10/04/00 16:05:49 GMT Daylight Time,
karmanhe@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
<< The mysterious sneer
on a character's face may only be the result of the actor trying hard not
to break wind, but it is duly logged, analysed and assigned a significance
that seems to go together with all those other isolated character moments
in the series >>
Thought this was a really well thought-out post by Kai, but I just had to say
that after reading this line I'll never be able to watch the series
(particularly the scenes with Avon) in quite the same way again. :)
In a message dated 11/04/00 03:42:49 GMT Daylight Time, rilliara@juno.com
writes:
<< 8. Also, I'd like to put in a good word for the costumes. It's difficult
to make a full length, long sleeved dress that, in and of itself, is
enough to make a person think twice about showing the video in mixed
company (some people are pretty deadly with nacho chips, and you don't
want a war to break out during the MST3K treatment). A real
accomplishment there. >> Sorry, I'm afraid this lost me - what is a nacho
chip, and what is the MST3K?
<< And, uh, .... let's see. There must have been something ....
Oh, yeah! Telling us enough about the dietary habits of mutoids to give
plot fodder to anyone wanting to do a Buffy the Vampire Slayer / B7
crossover! Not to mention raising questions about green blood in the
Federation. Was that a metaphor for envy or are Mutoids just very
ecletic eaters (except for alien vampire bats)? >> Is it just me or did Deep
Space Nine take this as inspiration for their Dominion warriors that have
similar-shaped vials of ketresel (sp?) white to keep their reason and
strength?
Richard
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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:30:36 EDT
Subject: Re: [B7L] First impressions: "Duel"
To: ariana@ndirect.co.uk
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In a message dated 09/04/00 14:41:17 GMT Daylight Time, ariana@ndirect.co.uk
writes:
<< The studio set for the alien planet was suitably creepy, IMHO. It was also
pretty cold, judging by Isla Blair's costume. >>
I'm glad someone else pointed this out as I didn't want to be the one to do
it... it was almost as distracting as the old lady spitting every time she
said a line, but not quite.
>From the messages I've read on the list so far, I've seen that the members
generate intelligent, insightful commentary. As I can't do this, I thought
I'd just give two puerile observations on the episode at hand:
1. Vila - "I don't mind rough, it's fatal I'm not too keen on". I think it's
the way Michael Keating tells 'em that makes me laugh so much.
2. Travis. Just a thought. Do you think the psychotic Travis was named after
the psychotic Travis Bickle, this series being made just two years after Taxi
Driver?
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:40:59 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: Freedom City <freedom-city@blakes-7.org>
Subject: [B7L] Blake's Legacy
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0411174059-199Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
I've a link on my site to Blake's Legacy. I erroneosly confused this with
Blake's Legend. The two projects were *different* attempts to make a sequel to
the series.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 15:15:40 EDT
From: Prmolloy@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Daily Star
Message-ID: <29.39904e8.2624d3dc@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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But Una, didn't you note how carefully Neil distanced himself from anyone
imagining that he might have actually bought the Star?
Trish
Neil wrote:
> The news of the proposed B7 movie seems to have filtered down to the Daily
> Star. I salvaged the relevent page (from Friday 7th Apr edition) from the
> works canteen because some its little gems of misinformation seemed worthy
> of a wider audience.
What amazes me most about this report is that I didn't spot a single misused
apostrophe.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:36:38 +0100
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Apologies...
Message-ID: <002701bfa3ed$61c76f60$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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Hi Richard. I can't remember you posting before, but this is the stuff.
> 1. Vila - "I don't mind rough, it's fatal I'm not too keen on". I think
it's
>the way Michael Keating tells 'em that makes me laugh so much.
Absolutely. It would also make a good T shirt.
>Is it just me or did Deep
>Space Nine take this as inspiration for their Dominion warriors that have
>similar-shaped vials of ketresel (sp?) white to keep their reason and
>strength?
>
I have a vague recollection that we were all discussing precisely this in
the pub on Saturday night. Can't for the life of me remember what we
concluded.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:43:58 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: Freedom City <freedom-city@blakes-7.org>
Subject: [B7L] Together Again Seven
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0411184358-6d1Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1
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Sorry, looks like I used a pound sign instead of typing the word pound. that
always gets mucked about by the internet.
The price of the new tape will be £8.25 or in non-scrambled text, 8.25 pounds.
$15 will serve too.
That includes P+P.
The address to pre-order is Sheelagh Wells, 20a New Rd, Brentford, Middlesex,
TW8 0NX, UK
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:51:22 GMT
From: "Andy Spencer" <stickman1968@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Zenith
Message-ID: <20000411205122.90203.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Judith wrote:
I've a link on my site to Blake's Legacy. I erroneosly confused this with
Blake's Legend.
Hi,
Just had a look at Judiths site, http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 , to check
out Blake's Legacy.
While there I noticed a banner with Zenith, the new Blakes 7 magazine, on
it.
Just like to say that it looks fantastic, can't wait for it to become
available.
A question to those concerned, is that Pete Wallbanks artwork on the cover?
It looks like it. As with the magazine, it also looks fantastic, a must for
Travis fans. Roll on May!
I haven't been able to find out how many people have been phoning the BBC
and logging their appreciation of the B7 reruns, as my friend has been on
holiday. As soon as I can I'll post them.(if anyones interested)
Andy.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 20:16:15 +0100
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: b7 <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Motivations, Justifications and Science
Message-ID: <uk48ASB$n384Ewuv@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <000501bfa3d9$337687e0$a5604e0c@dshilling>, Dana Shilling
<dshilling@worldnet.att.net> writes
>What fascinates me is the range of disparity between the best and the worst
>episodes--somebody must have approved all the scripts.
As the script editor explained when asked about this, if someone turns
in a good outline, and is commissioned to write a full script, and the
script itself turns out to be rubbish, there just isn't time to do
anything about it. You have to clean it up as best as possible, and get
on with it - there isn't time or money to get someone to write a new
script, so the only person to do the cleaning up is the script editor.
Chris was able to rewrite only so many scripts in a season.
>(And somewhere there
>must be some that were submitted and rejected for falling below the
>Vogon-poetry watermark that actually got Ultraworld accepted--we've got to
>find the repository and destroy them before they fall into the wrong hands!)
I have never actually seen "Man of Iron", but it is available from
Horizon.
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 08:58:34 +1000
From: "Roger the Shrubber" <powerplay@cheerful.com>
To: "blake's seven" <blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: the age
Message-Id: <200004112257.IAA02790@vasquez.zip.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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I haven't been on this main list for about a year, I have only been in the
secret, isolated world of the Spin list, so when I happened to read this on
The Age's web site today (a Melbourne-based newspaper), I almost fell off
my chair.
*****
Blake's Seven set for comeback after 20 years
JAMES MORRISON
Tuesday 11 April 2000
Producers are trying to resurrect the characters of cult science fiction
series Blake's Seven in a TV movie - 20 years after its entire cast was
gunned down on screen.
The low budget space saga, which told of a group of freedom fighters
battling against a ruthless Federation, is being turned into a
multi-million dollar TV film.
It is hoped the production, which will star Paul Darrow, reviving his role
as charismatic anti-hero Avon, will act as a pilot for a full series.
The new project is being fronted by Andrew Sewell, a freelance producer
currently working with BBC Worldwide, who bought the Blake's Seven rights
from the estate of its creator, the late Terry Nation.
He said: ``We plan for next year to shoot a television movie with a view to
a series. A script is being written and I can confirm that Paul Darrow will
be reprising his role.
``We cannot specify the exact cost as yet, but it will be several million.
The beauty of Blake was the characters and it's not going to be overloaded
with special effects, but when they are there they will be
state-of-the-art.''
He added: ``The plan is to set it 20 years on from when the last series
ended. When Paul did the last one he was in his mid-30s. He's now in his
mid-50s.''
Sewell said the film would retain the name Blake's Seven despite the fact
that the title character was killed by Avon in the last episode to date in
1981.
Blake, played by Gareth Thomas, was a regular only in the first two seasons
of the original series.
But he declined to give a hint as to how Avon, last seen surrounded by
Federation stormtroopers before apparently perishing with his companions in
a hail of gunfire, has managed to survive.
The new film, which is not being aimed at a cinema release, is based on an
idea by Nation, whose most famous TV creation was Dr Who's Daleks.
Sewell, whose recent projects have included working on the global new media
marketing of recent BBC hit Walking with Dinosaurs, said he did not yet
know who would broadcast the film.
But he added: ``It would be nice to think maybe the BBC would go with it,
but the new nature of the broadcasting markets gives us a lot of options.''
The announcement comes as BBC2 continues a round of repeats of the first
season of the original Blake's Seven, and follows a successful re-run of
the series on UK Gold.
- PA
******
Wow! Can we get Mr Sewell to join this mailing list ?
Panic Disorder
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2634/index.html
_________________
There are some things one must know about if one
is to be educated.
_________________
The aspiration to be number one and gain great fame
is both natural in man and, properly trained, one of the
soul's great strengths.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 19:42:13 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] First impressions: "Duel"
Message-ID: <20000411.194215.-89523.0.rilliara@juno.com>
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On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:38:15 EDT RCalla6725@aol.com writes:
> In a message dated 11/04/00 03:42:49 GMT Daylight Time,
> rilliara@juno.com
> writes:
>
> enough to make a person think twice about showing the video in
> mixed
> company (some people are pretty deadly with nacho chips, and you
> don't
> want a war to break out during the MST3K treatment). A real
> accomplishment there. >> Sorry, I'm afraid this lost me - what is a
> nacho
> chip, and what is the MST3K?
I understand chips are called crisps in the UK. A nacho chip (also known
as a tortilla chip) is a chip made from corn flour. Some are round but
some are triangular (making them much better weapons, also making it more
painful if you bit down wrong in just the right way).
MST3K is for Mystery Science Theater 3000, a sort of old movie show
"hosted" by a character who has supposedly been imprisoned on a satellite
and is being forced to watch really bad movies as part of an experiment
by a mad scientist who wants to take over the world. The guy stays sane
by making a couple robot buddies who watch the movies with him and they
all comments about it as they watch. Hence, the MST3K treatment is when
the viewers start throwing in their own observations and commentary.
An example of it in a B7 episode might be something like this: They have
just teleported down to another planet.
Blake: Spread out, but be careful. We don't know what might be here.
Viewer [pretending to speak for Avon]: Yeah, right, it's the same old
quarry pit he always takes us to. Does he really think we haven't
noticed.
Other viewer [on behalf of Jenna]: You'd think he'd admit he's lost and
ask for directions.
Blake [on behalf of Blake]: We're lucky the Federation doesn't know we're
here.
Viewer: Yeah, none of them know, EXCEPT FOR THE ARMY HIDING BEHIND THE
BUSH!
Other viewer [on behalf of Federation guard]: Hey, aren't those the same
guys we fought of last week? Every time we rebuild the set, they come and
tear it down again. What's their problem?
Ellynne
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 18:55:40 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Motivations, etc.
Subject:
[B7L] Re: Motivations Justifications and Science
[B7L] Re: Motivations Justifications and Science.
[B7L] Re: Motivations Justifications and Science.
[B7L] Re: Motivations Justifications and Science.
Message-ID: <38F3D79C.1421@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> <Just to add my own angle to this question: I think that if people like a
> character, they are more willing to see that character's inconsistencies as
> character complexity and more willing to explain and rationalise them with
> their own inventions, while with less-interesting characters any
> illogicalities are more likely to be just dismissed as bad writing.>
>
That makes sense, fo an extent. It wasn't until I got on the list that I
saaw Tarrant's as having some complexity. Nor have I yet seen Jenna or
Soolin as being enigmatic as much as simply underdeveloped (dull). The
worshippers of the Golden Goddess speak more of her icy loveliness than
how the wiggling of her pinky finger indicates extreme consternation at
Tarrant's choice of girlfriend, etc. Though I did like it when she
finally got some real script of her own, in Headhunter.
Still, I think some actors play subtext more obviously, or the
director's favor their use of subtext. Certainly the director's shot
brings attention to Avon's reaction to seeing Jenna slapped in his first
episode. Having seen that, the viewer then looks for other subtleties.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 00:04:17 EDT
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Just another filk
Message-ID: <71.234fdd1.26254fc1@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 4/9/00 5:09:08 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
j_macqueen@hotmail.com writes:
> Ain't no refuge (Song for Zen)
>
> (Tune: Ain't no sunshine)
>
Very nice, and it fits in with the B7 Blues too! Well done.
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:12:19 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Cc: "Freedom City" <freedom-city@blakes-7.org>
Subject: [B7L] TTFN
Message-ID: <00a001bfa470$48502e90$0d01a8c0@codex>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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Dear all,
Just a quick note to say cheerio for the moment. As you may have spotted
from recent emails, I've developed RSI. Since the PhD involves typing,
writing HTML and extensive note-taking, there's no respite there, and I just
can't keep up with the email traffic. So I'm going to have a little rest.
I owe quite a few of you personal emails - I hope you'll be patient if my
reply takes even longer than usual!
Be nice to Animals in my absence. I'm sure I'll go stir crazy without
conversation and be back sooner than is good for me, and I'll still be
hanging around on the spin.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:44:46 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Rand and Avon
Message-ID: <20000412.094752.-95945.1.rilliara@juno.com>
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I can see Avon stoically enduring torture (well, sardonically, anyhow)
and then telling his torturors how to fix their machinery. The machinery
would then either blow up or electrocute the torturors.
Ellynne
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:42:24 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Anna
Message-ID: <20000412.094752.-95945.0.rilliara@juno.com>
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Maybe, in Anna's coup, the guerillas were always meant to be killed. It
depends on how power was handed on in the Federation but, if relationship
to the previous holder of a position was important enough, Anna might
have been a natural choice to succeed her dead husband (if her part in
his death wasn't known [in some places, even if it was]). Then if
Servalan was killed just before rescue (which was why Anna went to the
basement with a gun), who would have been her successor (in the normal,
noncoup form of succession). A case might be made for Chesku having a
shot at it and, consequently, Anna.
Anna, meanwhile, having made sure no guerillas survived, would make it
seem she had been held hostage along with Servalan but had survived (a
little artistic wounding might have been needed). This might help make
her the darling of the hour.
Add to that whatever influence she already had, along with Bartholomew's
connections (and possible supply of black mail material gathered on other
high-ranking people in the Federation) and she could be quite ready to
advance her cause. In this case, her reasons for wanting Servalan kept
alive had nothing to do with her usefulness. She just wanted to keep her
till the last minute, to give her death more emotional punch (and
possibly to weaken the position of whoever had been running things during
the crisis [vice-president or whatever (the guerillas didn't kill her
till the VP fumbled things - making rumors questioning how accidental it
was the VP's problem, not Anna's)]) and to make Anna's survival less
questionable.
Ellynne
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:00:17 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Carrying Concealed
Message-ID: <000501bfa498$342530a0$c96b4e0c@dshilling>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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It would certainly be handy to have a teleport system, and it might save
trouble to combine the teleport with communications functions, but why a
teleport _bracelet_? I was wearing a bracelet the other day and had to take
it off because it got in the way of using my laptop computer--imagine the
problems of climbing things, firing blasters, etc. while wearing a teleport
bracelet. Not to mention how often the damn things fall off or malfunction,
and the ease with which enemies can notice that one is wearing a teleport
bracelet and order its removal.
Why not put the teleport and communications on something about the size and
shape of a credit card or the modem card for a laptop? Then you could keep
it concealed more easily. And why hasn't anybody thought to develop
explosives in an epoxy-like two-part form, where you actually could keep one
part in one pocket of one's low-cut jumpsuit and the other part in another
pocket, instead of wherever Dayna stashed the heat-seeking blowing-things-up
module in City at the Edge of the World.
-(Y)
Although the Federation by and large seems to be a Microsoft shop, we can
see from Children of Auron that Servalan favors Open Sores code for at least
some applications.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:28:38 -0700
From: Pat Patera <patpatera@netzero.net>
To: B7 Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Possessions
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Mistral wrote:
>Indeed. I imagine Vila sees everything in the worlds as 'ours'-- the
>possession of whoever thinks they own it, and Vila's whenever it becomes
>convienent for him to have.
This arrangement would certainly solve my storage problems. How nice to
own everything, while having it warehoused by others. Vila, you're a
genius!
Gnog wrote re:
>P.S. Have to ask this: did Gnog happen all of a sudden or did you deny
>your essential Gnogness for years? <smile>
>
Oh, I think that Gnog has been in my subconscious for years, just
waiting
for an excuse to come out.
I have this vision of Gnog bursting from your chest like in Alien.
Alas, I think the artist formerly known as Andrew has been *possessed*
by Gnog.
PatPat
--
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:03:16 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: UnAmerican Activities
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Ellynne, replying to my discussion with Iain, wrote:
> > > > into law, and I prefer laws to stay out of morality except
> > insofar as
> > > > is necessary to protect citizens from being violated by others.
> > >
> > > So does everybody.
> >
> > Surely you don't believe that? There are a great many people who'd
> > be happy to see laws move much further into the realm of morality,
> > as long as it's *their* morality that's being enforced.
>
> Perhaps I shouldn't bring this up, but ALL laws have a moral base.
Sure. That's why I said except.
<snip for brevity examples from various cultures and time periods>
> What do we have against these things? Well, they're - you know -
> _wrong_. They're _bad_. You _shouldn't do them_.
Er...Yes and no. The idea of some things being just 'wrong' because
they're 'wrong' is inherently based on the idea of an absolute morality.
Not everyone agrees that such a thing exists, and even those of us
who do rarely agree completely on what it entails.
The US Declaration of Independence and Constitution aren't
based on morality, they're based on freedom--the idea that
rights should *only* be limited enough in order that people can
live together in peace and relative safety. Our laws were never
intended to make us all think and behave in the same way.
> And don't come back with, "It's not ethics. They just don't serve the
> common good," or "It's property rights," or "It's bad for the economy,"
> or "enlightened self-interest."
Actually, your examples fall pretty much entirely under person
and property, and the few that don't fall under equality before
the law, which I'll admit to having as an underlying assumption.
> Who decided what the common good is and
> why should it be served anyway?
Actually that's pretty much my point. Majority vote doesn't make
something right.
> Property rights, economy, what do I
> care? What if the only enlightenment I care about _is_ my own
> self-interest, and I can get away with it? Why _should_ I care what
> happens to anyone else? Other than it being the _right_ thing?
Again, the problem is that to base laws on what's 'right', you
have to assume either that (1) people substantially agree on
what 'right' is--*they don't*; or (2) that the majority has the
right to impose its view of what 'right' is on the minority. Since
you can't empirically prove that an absolute morality does or
does not exist, or what it might be if it does, you can't prove
that the person whose morality you're violating might not be
the one who's correct about what's 'right'. Galileo, for example.
People have a right to be wrong, to think wrong, to do wrong;
that's what free will is about. Our laws were originally designed
to limit those freedoms enough to protect people from each other,
not from themselves. Diversity is a strength that should be protected.
> OTOH, western culture has long recognized a difference between private
> and public (not that there haven't enough tragic exceptions). However,
> the distintion between the two is not as simple and trite as "you can't
> legislate morality," since it could be argued that's all the law has ever
> done.
In fact I didn't say that, if you'll go back and check. And my
concern is that the line is moving further and further into private
lives at an alarming rate. We protect our own freedoms when
we protect the freedoms of people we disagree with.
Scrambling for a B7 connection...er...okay:
You'll have noticed that churches are outlawed in the Federation.
People are slotted into jobs deemed appropriate for them, whether
or not they find those jobs stimulating. Planets full of workers are
blown up, or the workers left stranded, because of economic
reasons. Planets held hostage with solium devices, native cultures
destroyed because they are deemed savages. Presumably, all of
these things are indeed justified by 'the common good'. Somehow,
I don't think *any* of Our Heroes would agree. Mind you, Avon
probably wouldn't think the common good justified leaving anchovies
off the pizza. <g>
Mistral
--
Eccentricity has always abounded when and where strength of character
has abounded; and the amount of eccentricity in a society has generally
been proportional to the amount of genius, mental vigor; and moral
courage which it contained. That so few now dare to be eccentric,
marks the chief danger of our time.--John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:57:06 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Catching up on the backlog of Digests...
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Mistral wrote:
>There's no suggestion in Jesus's teachings, or that of the
> apostles, that it's acceptable to coerce people to give/share.
I'm still several days behind catching up with my digests, so forgive me if
someone has mentioned this, but what about Ananias and Sapphira (Acts
5.1-11)? In brief, the apostles' supporters are selling all their land and
houses and laying the money at the apostles' feet; a couple called Ananias
and Sapphira secretly keep back part of their proceeds; Peter accuses them
of lying to the Holy Ghost and they both drop dead on the spot; "and great
fear came on all them that heard these things".
Dana wrote:
>Tonight: season finale THE SOPRONOS.
Ah, that reminds me, where has the second season of the Sopranos got to in
UK television? I haven't missed it, have I? I meant to have another
attempt at deciphering the accents.
Susie titillated me with:
>Thinking of Dana's Shakespeare reference, I'm now considering
>Bercol & Rontane to rival Rosencrantz & Guildenstern.
Yes! Yes! The entire series from the point of view of Bercol and Rontane!
(Of course they survived Trial.) How soon can you write it?
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 09:40:03 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Catching up on the backlog of Digests...
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Harriet Monkhouse wrote:
> Mistral wrote:
> >There's no suggestion in Jesus's teachings, or that of the
> > apostles, that it's acceptable to coerce people to give/share.
>
> I'm still several days behind catching up with my digests, so forgive me if
> someone has mentioned this, but what about Ananias and Sapphira (Acts
> 5.1-11)? In brief, the apostles' supporters are selling all their land and
> houses and laying the money at the apostles' feet; a couple called Ananias
> and Sapphira secretly keep back part of their proceeds; Peter accuses them
> of lying to the Holy Ghost and they both drop dead on the spot; "and great
> fear came on all them that heard these things".
Right, but check verse 5.4; Peter says that it was their land, under
their control. Even after they sold it, the money was theirs. The
problem wasn't that they didn't want to give it, the problem was that
they *lied* about it. They were essentially defrauding the church.
Notice that Peter gave Sapphira a chance to tell the truth. That
wasn't necessary if his real concern was getting the money.
The early church did practice a form of socialism, but it was
voluntary (and not without its problems, which led to the creation
of the office of deacon); in fact I've got nothing against voluntary
socialism, although it's not what I'd choose; it's coercion that
disturbs me.
It's been remarked on how the crew of Liberator seem to have
few personal possessions and share things. I think this works
because they all know each other well and have similar goals;
in fact it's one of the reasons the relationships strike me as
familial. I do think that it breaks down where the goals crossed
each other, as in 'my ship'. Similarly, I think it would get harder
and harder to maintain successfully if the crew complement
increased, because they would know each other less well, and
there would be more people to use the same amount of resources.
Mistral
--
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End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #107
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