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blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 156
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Harvest of Kairos
Re: [B7L] Star One
Re: [B7L] Re: Terminal (was Sarcophagus)
[B7L] Re: "Hostage" & "Terminal" (was Re: Terminal)
Re: [B7L] Other peoples mail
Re: [B7L] Other peoples mail
Re: [B7L] "Hostage" & "Terminal" (was Re: Terminal)
Re: [B7L] Rich or Dead?
Re: [B7L] "Hostage" & "Terminal" (was Re: Terminal)
[B7L] Re: Countdown (was Terminal (was Sarcophagus) <g>)
Fwd: [B7L] Re: Countdown (would you believe an addendum??)
Re: [B7L] Other peoples mail
Re: [B7L] Harvest of Kairos
[B7L] Help! Animated gif needed for website
[B7L] Re: Other people's mail
[B7L] Other peoples mail
Fwd: [B7L] Re: "Hostage" & "Terminal" (was Re: Terminal)
Re: [B7L] Ben Steed
Re: [B7L] Ben Steed
Re: [B7L] Harvest of Kairos
Re: [B7L] Ben Steed
Re: [B7L] Other peoples mail
[B7L] PGP
Re: [B7L] "Hostage" & "Terminal" (was Re: Terminal)
[B7L] Re: Chris Boucher appreciation society
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 23:17:33 EDT
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Harvest of Kairos
Message-ID: <be.4d794e0.266f18cd@aol.com>
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In a message dated 6/5/00 12:22:38 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
blake@gaudaprime.co.uk writes:
> Tee-hee! BTW, I was watching RoD with my housemate the other day and she
> pointed out one of the weirdest Dayna moments ever:
>
> D: And if Servalan doesn't do as you ask (or something)?
> A: I'll blow the top of her head off
> D: (laughing) I really believe you would.
>
> What's going on with that? Again, Dayna forgets her burning mission to
kill
> Servalan....
<grin> Deference to her elders, perhaps? Actually, I think she's amused that
he's really serious about it this time.
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 23:17:35 EDT
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Star One
Message-ID: <79.50c2264.266f18cf@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 6/5/00 8:03:45 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
rilliara@juno.com writes:
> Maybe what Blake is doing is justified, but maybe Blake
> is beginning to realize the one person he can't justify this to is
> himself. It may be justified in _military_ terms, but he cannot justify
> it in terms of his _ideals_. On some level, he sees himself as doing a
> Samson in the temple, taking an extreme step because of _personal_ needs.
You have a very plausible point here, IMHO. I think it's this sort of inner
conflict that makes Blake increasingly disagreeable with the others as they
get closer to finding Star One. He's been *so* focused on destroying the
Federation for so long that his conscious mind can't let go of that goal, but
his basic natural compassion and idealism are starting to threaten his
ability to accomplish it. Therefore, he suppresses them as ruthlessly as
Avon does his feelings, with very similar results.
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:51:35 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Terminal (was Sarcophagus)
Message-ID: <20000606.211536.-94161.1.rilliara@juno.com>
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On Tue, 06 Jun 2000 01:00:16 PDT "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
writes:
> After I wrote:
> <Gan, Blake, Cally and Tarrant would have gone to Terminal for any
> of
> their crew-mates, no question.>
>
> Ellynne answered: [big snip]
>
> <I'm just trying to remember a time when Cally faced a dangerous
> rescue mission that wasn't 'cause' related.>
>
> Children of Auron?
>
Well, yeah. But I meant in cases of unknown individuals. I think Cally
is the sort to rescue complete strangers left lying along the roadside
regardless of personal danger. After all, she felt strongly enough about
the wrongs being done by the Federation to get involved even at the
expense of possible permanent exile, etc. But I can't think of
unquestionable proof.
In Children of Auron, she gets a call for help from her sister and
believes LOTS of her people are in danger (the whole world was a bit of a
surprise, apparently). We'd be surprised if the average person _didn't_
respond to such a plea (especially if it seemed to have the added carrots
of official end of exile and the incorrect belief that your enemies
weren't in that area).
Ellynne
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:35:24 -0600 (MDT)
From: Betty Ragan <bragan@aoc.nrao.edu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: "Hostage" & "Terminal" (was Re: Terminal)
Message-Id: <200006070335.VAA21387@zia.aoc.NRAO.EDU>
Sally wrote:
> Agreed. (Which makes Avon's 'it is an unacceptable risk' rather ironic in
> hindsight. But then My Darling is a firm believer in 'do as I say, not as I
> do').
Ah, yes. And it's far from the only thing he ever said to Blake that
becomes ironic in hindsight. :)
> <Blake, unlike Avon, is quite upfront about what he's going to do and why
> (although that *might* simply be because the rest of the crew happened to be
> present when the message from Travis came in - it's not like Blake couldn't
> be secretive, too).>
>
> I think he would probably have told them some of it, anyway.
I think so, too, actually. I can't really think of any good reason
for him *not* to tell them (unless maybe it's so he doesn't have to
listen to Avon tell him how stupid he's being the whole way there :)).
> It's too soon
> after Trial (which is what Vila appears to touch on with his "don't go
> alone, not again,")
One of those lovely bits of continuity that I so love about the show.
> <* Blake is very calm and together - almost matter-of-fact, even - about the
> whole thing, where Avon... erm... isn't. :)>
>
> That's one way to put it. Just 'coz he refuses to leave the flight deck for
> thirty hours,
Without sleep. Don't forget that part. :)
> Inga's safety may be important to Blake, but I still don't think he had more
> than cousinly affection for her. He certainly isn't emotionally affected the
> way he is for Cally (Seek-Locate-Destroy), Avon (The Web, Countdown) or
> Jenna (Deliverance).
Yes, I'm certainly not one of those who sees any *romantic*
involvement between Blake and Inga at all (an opinion I'm prepared
to defend at length if pressed :)). But I take his comment that she
meant a lot to him once at face value -- I think they were very close
once, that maybe he regarded her more as a little sister than as a
cousin. In any case, she *was* family, and he *did* care about her.
But he hasn't seen her (or probably even thought much about her) in a
long time... Which makes the situation, emotionally, very different
for him here than it does for Avon in "Terminal." (At least, if you
subscribe to the belief that Blake was very much on Avon's mind during
the third season, which, as you know, I most emphatically do.)
There are, of course, other reasons why Avon acts very differently
than Blake. Self-sacrifice may come naturally to Blake, but it goes
*very* much against Avon's grain. And Blake, at least, could quite
freely admit that Inga was important to him, and that any risk that
might save her was acceptable to him. I do think that a large part of
the reason why Avon didn't tell any of the others what he was doing
was that it would have involved admitting to them that he gave a fig
about Blake, and he just couldn't bring himself to do it. :)
--
Betty Ragan ** bragan@nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan
Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise.
"Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a
tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 00:11:29 EDT
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Other peoples mail
Message-ID: <f.4ce5228.266f2571@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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In a message dated 6/6/00 1:24:40 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk writes:
> <groan> thank you for that kind thought, yet another reminder that there
> are fans out there who are the same age now as some of us were when we
> watched the original run...
<grin> I just remind myself that youth and skill is no match for age and
treachery.
Nina
Smile - it make 'em wonder what you're up to.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 01:28:45 -0600
From: Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@powersurfr.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Other peoples mail
Message-Id: <4.1.20000607012352.00935370@mail.powersurfr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:11 AM 6/7/00 -0400, Pherber@aol.com wrote:
><grin> I just remind myself that youth and skill is no match for age and
>treachery.
Avon and Tarrant? "Age and Guile beat Youth, Innocence, and a Bad Haircut"
--name of P.J. O'Rourke book on my bookshelf (if it mitigates any, it's
sandwiched between the I Ching and The Secret Books of Paradys I & II).
--
For A Dread Time, Call Penny:
http://members.tripod.com/~Penny_Dreadful/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:55:15 +0200
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] "Hostage" & "Terminal" (was Re: Terminal)
Message-ID: <GSOLHPCjcVP5Ew1a@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <Pine.OSF.3.96.1000606122546.22724A-100000@bsauasc>, Iain
Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk> writes
>Great line. I bet it was written by Chris Boucher.
You know, after hearing his mutterings on the Together Again tape about
writers not being appreciated, I'm tempted to print off posts like these
and send them to him:-)
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:47:26 +0200
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: b7 <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Rich or Dead?
Message-ID: <MClJzBCOVVP5EwUr@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <000501bfcf58$c5257020$17604e0c@dshilling>, Dana Shilling
<dshilling@worldnet.att.net> writes
>On the
>screenwriting level, it's a very clumsy way to handle the exposition--Avon
>hauls the stuff into the teleport area so he can tell Jenna something SHE
>told HIM in the first place. Obviously the BBC couldn't afford another set
>to show the discovery rather than talking about it!
According to Joe and Sheelagh (I can't remember whether it was in the
book or mentioned on one of the Together Again tapes), that was pretty
much the reason - that early in the season, they couldn't afford (in
time as much as in money) to build all the sets the series would need.
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 23:56:07 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] "Hostage" & "Terminal" (was Re: Terminal)
Message-ID: <393DF206.A19DEDA0@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Julia Jones wrote:
> In message <Pine.OSF.3.96.1000606122546.22724A-100000@bsauasc>, Iain
> Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk> writes
> >Great line. I bet it was written by Chris Boucher.
>
> You know, after hearing his mutterings on the Together Again tape about
> writers not being appreciated, I'm tempted to print off posts like these
> and send them to him:-)
Actually, after your last post on this subject, I found myself
wondering if there wasn't some way we could let him know how
much we do appreciate his work. Does he have an e-mail address
that we could cc relevant posts to, or even invite him to 'drop in'
on us occasionally? Without his contribution, I'm quite certain I'd
have never made it through the series once, let alone developed
any attachment to it.
Mistral
--
I won't get to get what I'm after till the day I die.--Pete Townsend
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 01:00:05 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Countdown (was Terminal (was Sarcophagus) <g>)
Message-ID: <20000607080005.56440.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Ika wrote:
<I always saw Countdown as a PR exercise, to be honest - is that too
cynical? <snip> What did you have in mind in Countdown as Blake's
'bleeding heart' overriding common sense?>
Obviously, Albian's rebellion coincides with his own overriding goal,
that's not what I meant. I was thinking of two specific points within
the episode:
a] When they find out the bomb is at the Pole, and Blake is all ready
to go off and help dismantle it, and *Avon* has to remind him that
they came here to find Provine <g> I love this. For someone who's
supposed to be obsessed at this point (and is certainly becoming
narrowly focused) he's still diverted by other people's problems.
b] His total freeze at the end, where they go below fifty and can't
reach Avon. After all, he *knows* staying won't help anyone, and made
it clear to ??? that he'd pull out. I know it's been argued that he
stops Vila from teleporting to safety to give Avon and Grant the
maximum chance of getting out in a hurry, but I can't help thinking if
he was thinking that clearly, he'd have mentioned it to Vila, not just
yanked Vila's arm down without taking his eyes off the countdown.
(Countdown's actually a wonderful episode for Blake as well as Avon,
both the good, the downright scary, and the
how-does-he-feel-about-Avon).
Me:
<When you think of it, Blake would probably be a better revolutionary
if he *could* stop his heart overruling his head, but a much worse
human being.>
Ika:
<Again, I'm a bit cynical about this. I'm not sure how often his heart
does overrule his head ->
Okay, on the 'getting sidetracked from The Cause by lame dogs' side
there's The Web (sidetracked from the need to get he Liberator free by
the threat to Decima, *then* gets sidetracked from the sidetrack when
Avon gets zapped. Good stuff.), Mission to Destiny, Deliverance,
Killer, Countdown, Hostage.
On the 'emotion over all', there's Seek-Locate-destroy (Avon only
stops him charging back into a base on full alert to rescue Cally by
appealing to his responsibility to the rest of them), ???, rial (see
below) and Countdown (see above).
Re Trial, Ika says:
<that might be because I've seen "Trial" too many times and really
taken to heart the bit where he as good as confesses to Avon that the
whole thing is a manipulation of the crew.>
No he doesn't <g> From the script:
AVON: They were almost ready to leave you.
BLAKE: Yes, I thought they migt be.
Nothing more than what he said in the tape, where he offered them the
option of doing so.
AVON: You handled them very skilfully.
BLAKE: Did I.
He's quite deliberately (IMO) *not* saying yea or nay, just as Avon
doesn't say yea or nay to the "you really hate me" line in Star One
(they're playing verbal games here, and Blake's winning.)
It all depends on how you view it, but the evidence is ambiguous.
Personally, I think it *was* a genuine, distraught bolt (the scene with
Cally indicates he's finding sympathy as hard to deal with as Avon's
savagery), and he's not thinking clearly at all (Blake is very very good -
if he *was* manipulating them, he'd do a much better job than
this.) Certainly, if it *is* a genuine, manipulative bid for sympathy, it's
an incredibly stupid one, since (as is conclusively proven) if anything goes
wrong, they have no way of getting to him (Avon has to cobble something up
in a hurry.) If he was manipulating them, he'd have covered his bases a lot
better (IMHO only, of course).
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 01:13:47 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: [B7L] Re: Countdown (would you believe an addendum??)
Message-ID: <20000607081347.39372.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Another reason I'd get hoiked off the Liberator is the appalling memory ...
in the above post, I left a couple of names while I looked them up - then
forgot to!!!!!
For:
<After all, he *knows* staying won't help anyone, and made it clear to ???
that he'd pull out.>>
??? = Cauder.
for <appealing to his responsibility to the rest of them), ???, Trial (see
below) and Countdown (see above).>
I can't *remember what ??? was supposed to be <groan>. Nevertheless we can
shove Cygnus Alpha in either here or in the earlier category, since a
revolutionary whose head continually ruled his heart would have gone looking
for other rebels to stock his wondfall ship, not headed straight off to
rescue an unprepossessing bunch of career criminals (he's already *got* the
showiest pair of the lot, in Avon and Jenna).
Honestly.
Notwithstanding his goodness of heart, I would not like to be around to
explain to Blake the seventeenth time I teleported them down then forgot to
bring them back ...
________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 23:28:15 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Other peoples mail
Message-ID: <393DEB7E.99018B5F@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Nina wrote:
> <grin> I just remind myself that youth and skill is no match for age and
> treachery.
Tarrant's no match for Avon, true.
> Smile - it make 'em wonder what you're up to.
Particularly the one at the end of Warlord.
Mistral
--
I won't get to get what I'm after till the day I die.--Pete Townsend
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 01:02:54 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Harvest of Kairos
Message-ID: <20000607080254.24321.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Jacqueline wrote:
<Last year we had a discussion about Mary Sues and about what would
*really* happen if one of us was to appear on the Liberator. Well, I'd
get kicked off after the fifth time I'd nearly managed to crash into a
star or some other inconveniently placed piece of space furniture
because I was too busy reading a book to look where we were going.>
*My* main worry (there would be at least seven hundred and two of them, each
perfectly designed to win a one-way ticket to the airlock) would be just how
far away from the target one can teleport someone - like thirty feet off the
ground because one has a small problem with remembering where the decimals
*should* go ("he landed on the tarmac like a blob of strawberry jam").
________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:40:32 +0930
From: "Minnie" <minnie@picknowl.com.au>
To: "Freedom City" <freedom-city@blakes-7.org>,
"Lysator" <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Help! Animated gif needed for website
Message-ID: <000b01bfd060$3c028860$07af3acb@marina>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi all
I was wondering if anyone has an animated B7 gif?? My sister is starting a
website for various Sci Fi shows she likes and she rather kindly, more for
my benefit than hers although she has watched B7, has offered to set up a
link for B7. This has made me very happy, but she would like an animated gif
for the link ( I think).
Can anyone help??
Cheers. Min.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 08:56:34 +0100
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Other people's mail
Message-ID: <393E0031.8E0BF020@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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Jessica asked: "Have you ever seen the tapes that combine episodes into
one block. I
accidentally watched most of the first season this way but they're
dreadful.
It's like whoever's made them has taken four hours worth of episodes and
compressed them into three hours so that a lot of stuff doesn't entirely
make sense and there is no flow to it. Does anyone know why these were
made,
I can't work it out."
These were the first B7 videos to be released. You have to remember
(even thought you weren't born <grumble, groan>) that at the time videos
as a commodity were in their early days and the suppliers weren't really
sure what people would want. This was one of may ideas they tried. Dr
Who suffered by having some of its stories combined into one long film,
cutting out the opening and ending credits and little bits.
Jessica also said: "Getting episodes out on video has its advantages but
it gets kind of annoying when you miss really important episodes because
you can't find them"
You can always try Blackstar. I think they have most of them still for
sale. The address is:
http://www.blackstar.co.uk
--
cheers
Steve Rogerson
http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson
Redemption: The Blake's 7 and Babylon 5 convention
23-25 February 2001, Ashford, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 01:01:20 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Other peoples mail
Message-ID: <20000607080120.30545.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Jessica wrote:
<I also started wondering if the same conversation topic would keep
coming up every so often as new members joined and old ones left,
strange thought, like that idea of history being a cycle.>
Well, when I joined, I first read the FAQ list from Sue Clerc (then
copied it 'cause it was fun :-)). And yes, she gave a list of popular
topics that do seem to be perennial ...
"Anything remotely to do with Avon. Any topic not directly about Avon
will mutate into an Avon-centered discussion within a maximum of 5
posts.
Why is Vila the only man called by his first name?
Why do the stories about Auron in the first and third season conflict?
Why didn't Blake just kill Travis when he had the chance(s)?
What happened to the 4 months between taking Liberator and arriving at
Cygnus Alpha?
Hey, the Federation symbol is a lot like the one from Star Trek turned
sideways!
Travis was marked so why didn't he die when Servalan used Imipak on
the guard?
Was Avon a bubble off plumb in season 4?
Was Blake a terrorist or a freedom fighter?
Hey, it could have been Blake's clone on Gauda Prime!
I know! Let's recast the crew with other actors! Who would you pick
for Avon?
How did you get hooked on the series?
How do you get others hooked on the series?
Why didn't Blake just say 'no' to Avon in Blake so Avon didn't shoot
him?
Blake was going to blow up Star One just to prove he was right."
There must be one of these we haven't discussed in the last - umm - err -
________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 23:49:26 EDT
From: B7Morrigan@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: [B7L] Re: "Hostage" & "Terminal" (was Re: Terminal)
Message-ID: <e2.56412da.266f2046@aol.com>
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Trish
"I don't mind rough. It's fatal I'm not too keen on. "
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Return-path: <B7Morrigan@aol.com>
From: B7Morrigan@aol.com
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Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 23:49:04 EDT
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: "Hostage" & "Terminal" (was Re: Terminal)
To: bragan@aoc.nrao.edu
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Betty wrote
>
> Yes, I'm certainly not one of those who sees any *romantic*
> involvement between Blake and Inga at all (an opinion I'm prepared
> to defend at length if pressed :)). But I take his comment that she
> meant a lot to him once at face value -- I think they were very close
> once, that maybe he regarded her more as a little sister than as a
> cousin. In any case, she *was* family, and he *did* care about her.
Especially since the Federation hadn't left him many of those folk! I won't
press you for an argument, Betty. I, for one, saw absolutely zero passion in
that kiss.
>
> I do think that a large part of
> the reason why Avon didn't tell any of the others what he was doing
> was that it would have involved admitting to them that he gave a fig
> about Blake, and he just couldn't bring himself to do it. :)
Avon admit he cared about someone? Heaven forbid. What did they drag out of
him about Anna Grant? "She was important to me" or something equally loving?
Avon as Romeo would have been a much shorter play, with a slight change in
ending.
Trish
"I don't mind rough. It's fatal I'm not too keen on. "
--part1_e2.56412da.266f2046_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:37:28 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed
Message-ID: <20000606.211535.-94161.0.rilliara@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:42:41 +0300 (EET DST) Kai V Karmanheimo
<karmanhe@cc.helsinki.fi> writes:
> Hello again.
>
> With the risk of stating the obvious, I'm going to contribute to
> this
> discussion of Ben Steed's three episodes, or rather
> his... ideology.
[big cut]
This got me thinking. I've read how the rise in technology in western
culture has been tied to the breakdown between "women's work" and "men's
work," since job performance is less and less likely to be based on
things like extra muscle. I'd never seen any connection between that and
Steed's anti-powerful women theme before reading this. I just saw his
anti-tech bent as coexisting with it rather than interconnected.
Interesting.
> I think the main problem with "Power" is that as Gunn Sar is
> disposed, the
> task of being the dominant male and the vehicle of Steed's ideology
> falls
> largely on Avon's shoulders. The key scene is the one where Avon
> forcefully takes the neckband from Pella.
Well, I still say the only defense for Power (not that I'm eager to make
one [or I wouldn't be if it weren't for the unendurable alternative of
taking it at face value]) is to assume the Seska are a recently deposed
group of tyrants who abused both male and unempowered female subjects,
that Seska abuses of women were a particular grievance, and that Gunn Sar
has plenty of reasons for pretending to be a lot stupider than he is
(notice how long he survives once Pella realizes the males have using
technology). Besides that, he blusters and draws attention while Nina,
who is more knowledgeable about offworlders (or, at least, Dorian) sizes
up the situation and signals her conclusions. In this context, it can be
argued Gunn Sar's attempt to strike Nina was actually a deliberate
attempt to draw Avon into a fight - based on the assumption that anyone,
no matter how slimey, would intervene to protect an unknown woman no
matter how low her apparent status and no matter how dangerous the
overall situation. This is an assumption Pella seems to share since,
when she is trying to gain sympathy (and we know at least part of her
story doesn't hold water), she hypes on the theme of women being abused
by men. But for the full arguement, see Judith's site (yes, it's a
twisted pretzel of logic - but it avoids the pain of taking Power as is).
Whereas the other moments
> of
> Avon kissing someone in the series are given drooling ovation, I
> haven't
> at least noticed much attention to this scene, [big snip] (compare this
to the formally similar scene in
> "Sarcophagus")?
There are similarities, but it's the differences that matter. In
Sarcophagus, the alien is linked to Cally's emotions and has already made
overtures to Avon. Despite his intent, his actions cannot be seen as
uninvited or unwanted. He is also fighting for Cally's life and the
crew's freedom (possibly their lives as well). The alien is _in the act_
of commiting murder. Her ring doesn't simply represent her greater
power, it is her murder weapon. While she implies she won't be
indisciminately feeding off the crew, the track record is very much
against her. Extreme measures are justified, and there is still a sense
Avon is not entirely comfortable with what he does.
While Avon has seen some things about Pella that may be having him
reconsidering her as an ally, her violence has been directed against
people he knows are her enemies. In other episodes, Avon has been
willing to wait for the double-cross (although he likes to be ready for
it) or simply inform someone he knows he'd be dead in a week if he played
their game - and then refuse to play. I also can't think of another
episode where he uses sexuality to get at someone when he's not
interested in her and he knows she's not interested in him. If we saw
Pella as representing an extreme and immediate threat and if Avon's
actions seemed to be for something other than his ego, it might come
across more like the scene in Sarcophagus.
Avon of course uses technology to a degree, but
> in
> the end, it's him alone, one *man* walking tall and carrying a big
> stick
> that puts it right, all under the convenient pretext that "she
> started
> it!"
Personally, this was the only part I found digestable (not palatable,
digestable). Pella has killed pretty indiscriminately at this point,
including the last of her people (not that she wasted any tears). She
clearly meant to steal the ship all along and had also betrayed her
previous ally, Dorian (OK, so that was a smart thing to do, the fact is
the only other Seska present is a tad shocked at these developments). By
stealing the ship alone, she created a situation where Avon was justified
in killing her to stop her and get the ship back. Add everything else
she's done, and her last statement about men answering everything with
violence shows a deliberate blindness to her own murderous actions
leading to this end.
Personally, I find this portrayal of Avon nasty but not
> entirely out-of-character, at least more easily acceptable than that
> of
> "Harvest".
>
Avon needing to assert his superiority to all around in rather negative
ways I can handle. Avon dissing women and using sexuality this
negatively and I have to assume he was channelling Dorian or something.
> There is more you could say about his characterisation and his plots
> (quite obvious the way he conveniently ignores Soolin until the last
> minute) of the actual episodes, but have to go now.
>
Ah. What do you think would have happened if Soolin _hadn't_ been curled
up in the bomb shelter, presumable catching up on her reading, while
waiting to see if Avon and the others could defuse the bomb?
Ellynne
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 04:24:37 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed
Message-ID: <20000607112437.32513.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Ellynne wrote:
<I still say the only defense for Power (not that I'm eager to make one [or
I wouldn't be if it weren't for the unendurable alternative of taking it at
face value]) ...>
I've decided that in my personal canon, Power is simply a dream Vila had
after getting rather too stuck into Dorian's *third*-best stock of wines.
We will not go into the reason why Vila was dreaming about Avon getting
knocked out so often and dragged around by hairy barbarians ...
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------------------------------
Date: Wed Jun 7 12:25:57 BST 2000
From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Harvest of Kairos
Message-Id: <200006071130.MAA28019@ns4.uk2net.com>
> From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
> Subject: Re: [B7L] Harvest of Kairos
> Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:11:48 +0100 (BST)
> -----
> On Mon 05 Jun, Steve dobson wrote:
> > Mistral added
> >
> > > I have to agree with you, Gnog. I was deeply annoyed when Jarvik
> > > got killed, I'd hoped that he would be an ongoing and worthy adversary
> > > to our heroes. He was much more believable and easier to take than
> > > Servalan's third and fourth series vampish nuttiness.
> >
> > Yes, I really enjoyed Jarvik too, always cool when it looked like the
> > Liberator had gotten away - supreme confidence in his plan. Although he
did
> > overcome the Federation guards a bit too easy foer my liking.
>
> Although I liked Jarvik as a character, I used to really hate the way
Servalan
> reacted to him as I felt it was the horrible 'every women just needs a real
man'
> stereotype. (which may indeed have been how Ben Steed intended it, given his
> other episodes).
I do agree with this - although see below
>
> However, a few years back, another fan pointed out to me that Servalan could
be
> confident enough in her own power and sexuality to be able to accept
domination
> in the bedroom as something she could enjoy - an escape from the pressure of
> always having to be in command.
> I like that view of the relationship, especially as Jarvik's lack of
political
> ambition makes it very believable. He wasn't a threat to her in that way and
> she could be certain that his attraction to her as a woman was genuine.
>
That's true. Also the tone of her voice on the line "That degrading act I was
subjected to... I should like you to do it again" does suggest that she remains
in control of the situation. (Also - although Ben Steed is keying into
man-dominant, woman-submissive, the class politics - ie the President of the
Federation getting together with a construction worker - do remind us that
Servalan is in control to a very real degree.)
Another really ingenious way of "rescuing" Servalan that a friend of mine
thought up is to remember that the next episode is Children of Auron (at which
point Servalan has given up on "conventional" methods of having children)....
I'll leave the link to your imagination!
Ika
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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:29:17 +0300 (EET DST)
From: Kai V Karmanheimo <karmanhe@cc.helsinki.fi>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.20.0006071525050.22025-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I hope this was meant to be on the Lyst.
Dana wrote:
<Responding to Kai's well-reasoned post, with a "nevertheless":
The sexual politics of "Power" is a little more complex than might be
assumed. I was frankly dreading watching it, but it is not entirely
simplistic. Considering what an idiot Gunn Sar is, he can't be considered
much of a role model, and considering that Pella does in fact turn out to
be
a murderer, Avon's suspicions prove well-founded. Also, Dayna is given
credit for vanquishing Gunn Sar in combat, whereas Avon doesn't get credit
for having done it first (sure, he cheated, but then he would, wouldn't
he?)
-(Y)
PS--I once referred to David Mamet as the Ben Steed of the
intelligentsia.>
I saw "Power" myself for the first time only about five months ago. After
the horror stories I had read on the Lyst, it wasn't half as bad as a
whole as I had expected. However, the ideology is unsettling and I can't
ignore it (I have tried).
Well, yes, it is probably more complex than that. However, I don't
consider Gunn Sar a role model nor do I think that he is meant to be one
(every little boy's dream: to grow up to be a smelly, semi-ignorant,
murderous barbarian), but he still serves as a vehicle for ideology. After
all, it is through characters that lot of the themes are represented and
even a villain of the piece can make points that the author wishes to
express.
In this case Dayna's victory is the heart of the matter. The credit given
is hollow, because Dayna, like Avon, achieves her victory through
subterfuge, even if she herself doesn't realise it. She is actually losing
the battle, but with a little telekinetic help from the remaining Seska,
she kills him. Now compare this to "The Harvest of Kairos" where she takes
on Jarvik: "You fight well. But you're still a woman." Perhaps if Cally
had had her moondisc to boost her latent telekinetic abilities, Jarvik's
next line might not have been "If not quite a lady", but
"Unnnghohsitmycobblers!", though I doubt that Steed would have ever
thought of that. For this is exactly the point: women cannot beat a real
man in a fair fight. Against nature. Man's strength will always be
greater. It is only with trickery and technology that three, *three* women
pooling their strength can just manage to kick the crap out of mighty Gunn
Sar ("Two Seskas and a woman against Gunn Sar?" asks Kate in disbelief. I
mean, just the three of them against Hunk Hogan out there...). So Dayna's
victory is not her own, but only goes to prove the point, while Nina, the
"reformed" Seska and the acceptable face of womanhood, weeps over the body
of her fallen hero (Her comment about the people finding "a new home, far
from here, a new way of life" could of course be read as a sign of true
change, perhaps even criticism of Gunn Sar's values, but as no more of it
is heard, it remains completely open).
As for Pella, yes she is indeed a murderer, there is no way round that
fact. She has to be to justify Avon killing her, an eye for an eye. The
bad guy (the bad gall here) must spill blood first so that the good guy
can take him out without upsetting the audience. Now I don't feel that
much sympathy for the character, but the whole device whereby she becomes
a cold-blooded murderer is a bit too neat and far too obvious. It is like
old colonial-era adventure stories where the brutality of one evil native
against his own is the reason that justifies not only his killing but also
a continuing occupation of the natives' land - to maintain order and
protect the ignorant savages from themselves. Kate's murder is the final
and far-from-surprising nail to the coffin. "Oh my God! She killed
Kate! Now she is taking Scorpio! She's leaving Our Heroes stranded! Come
on, Avon, do something! Waste her! Kill the bitch!" Isn't this how it's
suppose to make us react? A neat little plot machination that removes the
Seska from the table with a perfectly palatable excuse - and allows the
writer to hammer home his subtext.
Think of what Avon says on Scorpio's flight deck with Pella's corpse lying
there as if listening: "It's a problem, isn't it? You can have war between
races, war between cultures, war between planets. But once you have war
between the sexes, you eventually run out of people." On the surface,
quite acceptable and logical, hence quite Avon. But the Hommiks did
survive. The Seska were killed or forcefully integrated into the Hommik
tribe. What does it really say, after what we have witnessed during the
past 45 minutes? The way I read it: "Don't rock the boat. Don't try to
break the natural order of things, because you will jeopardise everything
and force us to do what is necessary. And don't try to fight, because you
will lose - every time." The Seska had to die to prove the point, Pella
had to kill to facilitate a guilt-free extermination. Perfectly
acceptable on story level, but too purposefully manipulative beyond
that. Too bad that Avon again had to be a mouth piece for that line. But
that's just my reading.
All right, I think that's enough Ben Steed for me for awhile. BTW, does
anyone know whether he has written anything else? Would be interesting to
know whether it's all like this, or did his implied author change later.
Kai
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:45:18 -0400
From: "Christine+Steve" <cgorman@idirect.com>
To: <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Other peoples mail
Message-ID: <00aa01bfd07e$4f677460$99249ad8@cgorman>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jessica Taylor wrote
> Have you ever seen the tapes that combine episodes into one block. I
> accidentally watched most of the first season this way but they're
dreadful.
> It's like whoever's made them has taken four hours worth of episodes and
> compressed them into three hours so that a lot of stuff doesn't entirely
> make sense and there is no flow to it. Does anyone know why these were
made,
> I can't work it out.
I had all 4. The first 3 (The Way Back, Duel and Orac) wern't too bad , but
then the 4th one jumped to the start of series 3, at Aftermath. Someone
unfamilier with the series would wonder what the hell this war was. At that
time there was so much clamour for B7 and the BBC had such a small Sci-fi
output that maybe they wanted to test the waters. The videos wouldn't have
taken too long to create.
I stupidly gave them away to a then friend when I started collecting the
early 1990's video collection - I get the feeling they may turn into a
collector's item given time!
Steve Dobson.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:53:36 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] PGP
Message-ID: <20000607.075343.-88907.0.rilliara@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
What happened after Blake suddenly came to me.
Avon dies. He just doesn't stay dead. Neither did Blake who, on top of
losing an eye, has really gone round the deep end. They do manage
something that brings down the the Federation (also destroying all
post-Bronze Age tech everywhere), but find themselves stranded on Gauda
Prime (renamed Earth). The completely round the bend Blake takes to
riding around raiding various people at first under the delusion they
were Federation sympathizers but eventually as because his bleeding heart
is burnt out and raiding and pillaging for the fun of it has a certain
appeal. He starts going by Chronos.
Avon intially goes along with this out of the OVERWHELMING guilt he feels
but eventually starts to develop his own vicious streak and give up his
civilized veneer (maybe it's something in GP's water). He somehow picks
up the nicknames Methos and Death. They get joined by Gan, also
immortal, who went a tad beserk being experimented on by Federation
torturers. He still likes animals but he's not too keen on people
anymore. They were thinking of calling themselves the Four Horsemen but
couldn't, for obvious reasons, when Travis (one or the other of him)
showed up with a glass eyeball after also recovering from death. Nobody
liked him, but he completed the quartet, so they decided to let bygones
be bygones.
Besides raiding and pillaging, they also named part of GP (now Earth,
remember) Scotland and told the people there to all add Mc or Mac to
their family names (a last burst of idealism from Blake, who'd been
deeply impressed by Braveheart). Or else. Funny how that worked against
them....
Ellynne
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:14:29 +0100 (BST)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] "Hostage" & "Terminal" (was Re: Terminal)
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.1000607161237.22585B-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Julia Jones wrote:
> In message <Pine.OSF.3.96.1000606122546.22724A-100000@bsauasc>, Iain
> Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk> writes
> >Great line. I bet it was written by Chris Boucher.
>
> You know, after hearing his mutterings on the Together Again tape about
> writers not being appreciated, I'm tempted to print off posts like these
> and send them to him:-)
Feel free, feel free.
Actors get far too much attention in drama, and writers get far too
little. This is why I'm an actor.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:13:14 EDT
From: B7Morrigan@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Chris Boucher appreciation society
Message-ID: <d9.52233b5.266fce9a@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Julia Jones wrote:
>
> > In message <Pine.OSF.3.96.1000606122546.22724A-100000@bsauasc>, Iain
> > Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk> writes
> > >Great line. I bet it was written by Chris Boucher.
> >
> > You know, after hearing his mutterings on the Together Again tape about
> > writers not being appreciated, I'm tempted to print off posts like these
> > and send them to him:-)
Mistral
> Actually, after your last post on this subject, I found myself
> wondering if there wasn't some way we could let him know how
> much we do appreciate his work. Does he have an e-mail address
> that we could cc relevant posts to, or even invite him to 'drop in'
> on us occasionally? Without his contribution, I'm quite certain I'd
> have never made it through the series once, let alone developed
> any attachment to it.
>
His brilliance is appreciated to such an extent that I generally attribute eve
ry good line to Chris Boucher. Hmm, maybe his point about writers not being
appreciated is correct - it's the Story Editor that gets the credit. Julia,
please do send him our emails to let him know how highly we think of him.
Trish
J
"I don't mind rough. It's fatal I'm not too keen on. "
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #156
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