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blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 185
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Other peoples mail
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
[B7L] Re: Blake's Back + Liberatored
Re: [B7L] 'Blake' and beyond
RE: [B7L] ZENITH IS HERE...
Re: [B7L] Re: Crew, Models and Liaisons
Re: Re:[B7L] Re: Crew, Models and Liaisons
Re: Re:[B7L] Re:B7/DS9 crossover thing,( was: Crew, Models and Liaisons)
Re: [B7L] Re: fav episodes
Re: [B7L] 'Blake' and beyond
Re: [B7L] 'Blake' and beyond
Re: [B7L] [Off-topic] Greco-Roman comedy
[B7L] [Off-topic] Greco-Roman Comedy
Re: [B7L] 'Blake' and beyond
Re: [B7L] Other peoples mail
Re: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
Re: [B7L] Fave episodes/ class status/gender
Re: [B7L] Creations
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re:[B7L] Re:B7/DS9 crossover thing
Re: [B7L] Screens (the technology of vision)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L] Creations
Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L] Other peoples mail
Re: [B7L] Re: Women we like
Re: [B7L] ZENITH IS HERE...
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 09:58:45 +1000
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Other peoples mail
Message-ID: <20000701095844.D2765@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Thu, Jun 29, 2000 at 09:29:19AM -0600, Ellynne G. wrote:
>
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:45:13 -0700 mistral@ptinet.net writes:
> > >
> > Ellynne wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, 09 Jun 2000 23:41:20 -0700 mistral@ptinet.net writes:
> > > >
> > > > Ellynne does a good Cally.
> > >
> > > I've been thinking about this and, despite some feelings some
> > people have
> > > towards Cally, think I can live with it. Cally probably is the
> > one I
> > > identify with the most.
> >
> > And I've been thinking about this, and it rather worries me that you
> > might think my comment was intended as a dig. It wasn't.
> >
> No, no, no. I didn't take this as a dig. My first reaction was she _is_
> the one I most identify with. Then I thought about the fanfic I did for
> Kathryn's Staked Blake, in which Cally figures prominently, and had a
> knee-jerk desire to point out this is NOT Mary Sue by another name. I'm
> not so much self-conscious about the Cally comparison as I am incredibly
> self-conscious about having written a nonflippant B7 story and getting
> nervous about how it will be received (although Kathryn liked it, which
> is a very good sign, I hope).
I wouldn't have said that Cally figured *predominantly* in it.
Considering that the original title of the story was "Willow", I
wouldn't say that at all! (grin)
And it isn't Mary-Sue-ish by *any* stretch of the imagination.
Geeze, just because I identify with Avon, does that make all my
stories with Avon in them Mary-Sue-ish?
Kerr Avonsen
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Servalan: We can do it, Avon.
Avon: I know we can.
Servalan: We'll be answerable to no one. Ours will be the only
voice. Imagination our only limit.
Avon: Imagination my only limit? I'd be dead in a week.
(Blake's 7: Aftermath [C01])
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@foobox.net>
/ \ | http://www.foobox.net/~kat
\_.--.*/ | http://jove.prohosting.com/~rubykat
v | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 18:35:32 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <20000701013532.31607.qmail@hotmail.com>
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Fiona wrote:
<We do see lots of people who are perfectly happy under the Federation, and
to whom Blake etc. do more damage than the Federation ever did; by contrast
we also see a lot of horror.>
Actually, could you tell me where we *do* see the former? This is a serious
question (for those who think I'm one-eyed about the topic :-)) since my
overall impression is that - except for those functionaries of the power
structure or straight-out rebels - themselves, we *see* precious little of
anyone who might have an opinion either way. The hoi polloi are kept firmly
off-stage, and while we *hear* a few scraps about passive support for Blake
(from "all sorts of citizens from Alphas to labor grades") I don't actually
recall many people outside the government or the military who might be said
to support the staus quo, except for the scientists on Fosferon (perhaps)
and Professor Kayn in Breakdown.
I could be wrong, but my impression is that very few people *were* happy
under the Federation, except those who were part of the power structure
itself; the majority were either unhappy but passive in the fact of their
own helplessness, or not in a state to have an opinion at all (e g drugged.)
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:49:08 EDT
From: B7Morrigan@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
Message-ID: <72.b7909f.268ea814@aol.com>
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In a message dated 6/30/00 8:31:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
N.Faulkner@tesco.net writes:
> Subj: Re: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
> Date: 6/30/00 8:31:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> From: N.Faulkner@tesco.net (Neil Faulkner)
> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se (b7)
>
> From: Una McCormack <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
> > I notice, also, that no-one has leapt to the defence of Thania's greasy
> > hair.
Neil wrote
> Thania is clearly a woman who views spotty chins and greasy hair in their
> due sense of proportion, and I want her telephone number *now*.
Una, I'm think if we don't bathe for a week, we'd have the hair and possibly
the spotty chin, the politics however...
Morrigan (aka Trish)
"I don't mind rough. It's fatal I'm not too keen on. "
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:08:42 +0930
From: "Minnie" <minnie@picknowl.com.au>
To: <freedom-city@blakes-7.org>, "Lysator List" <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Cc: "Freedom City" <freedom-city@blakes-7.org>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Blake's Back + Liberatored
Message-ID: <004501bfe2fd$176d3720$9ec326cb@marina>
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>Judith wrote:
>Good news! Sheelagh got enough requests to make a short copy run viable.
There
>are now a limited number of Blake's Back and Liberatored available.
>
>Send cheques for 8.25 pounds or checks for US$15 to Sheelagh Wells, 20a New
Rd,
>Brentford, Middlesex, TW8 0NX, UK
>
>I'll have stock shortly and will process orders for Aus/NZ fans who
requested
>copies as it'll be cheaper for you to pay by credit card rather than trying
to
>get hold of UK currency or International Money Orders.
>
Yes Please Judith. I just sent a message asking about these <G> Please let
me know how to pay by credit card. Cheers.
Min.
>
>PS. There are reviews of both tapes on http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
>
>--
>http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
>pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
>Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org )
>Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 22:35:19 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] 'Blake' and beyond
Message-ID: <009501bfe305$16926de0$69614e0c@dshilling>
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Responding to the Nyder and Neil dialogue about family entertainment:
> I agree about the evening family entertainment bit-- but I think that
could
> provide a good answer to the question of why our heroes weren't the most
> believable as criminal masterminds.
Treason never prospers, what's the reason--
If it prosper, none dare call it treason.
By definition anyone who gets caught is not excessively skillful as a
criminal. In fact, although Avon is very good at a lot of things that
could be shown as family entertainment, he's absolutely crap at
being a criminal--not just the bank fraud, but Harvest of Kairos
and Gold.
-(Y)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 03:47:45 +0100
From: "Andy Hopkinson" <andyrh@netcomuk.co.uk>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>,
"Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
Subject: RE: [B7L] ZENITH IS HERE...
Message-ID: <OFEJJKHJKAJGONINCJKMGEKLCEAA.andyrh@netcomuk.co.uk>
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Fiona wrote;
>I just got my contributor's copy (shameless bias warning) and I have to say
>it is great. The cover exceeds expectations (love the picture of Brian
>Croucher on the back. Why isn't this man playing big-man-on-the-manor in
>any of the recent spate of cockney-gangster films?). The articles, my own
>efforts aside, are thus far excellent-- I haven't had a chance to get all
>the way through yet as I got in around eleven last night, but Una's piece
on
>the Beeb is spot on, Judith's take on Collector's Lot provoked the odd
>knowing chuckle, and I'm sure the other pieces will be as good.
>To add to this praise, my flatmate, who is a non-fan and has never seen any
>B7, borrowed my copy (before I'd had a chance to read it, the beggar) and
>was equally impressed; said it was better than three-quarters of the
>professionally produced stuff out there.
>Let's have an Issue 2, Andy, please? Willing to help in any capacity but
the
>financial...
:)
Thanks Fiona, pleased you liked it.
There will be another one, providing people buy this one first...
Andy.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 23:22:22 +0930
From: "Minnie" <minnie@picknowl.com.au>
To: <Tigerm1019@aol.com>, <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Crew, Models and Liaisons
Message-ID: <000b01bfe2fc$4b6f8920$9ec326cb@marina>
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>>
>Tiger M wrote:
>
>How about Garak using those skills *on* Avon? ;-)
Oh this idea just gets better and better <VBEG>
Min.xxx
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 23:25:48 +0930
From: "Minnie" <minnie@picknowl.com.au>
To: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>,
"lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Re:[B7L] Re: Crew, Models and Liaisons
Message-ID: <000c01bfe2fc$4c8b5960$9ec326cb@marina>
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>Una stampy-foot bratface wrote <G>:
>Mail me mail me mail me mail me! We can brainstorm! Want want WANT this
>story!
Go Una!!!!!!! If there is anything that I can do................... :)
Min jumping up and down excitedly. <G>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 23:21:04 +0930
From: "Minnie" <minnie@picknowl.com.au>
To: "Betty Ragan" <bragan@aoc.nrao.edu>, <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Re:[B7L] Re:B7/DS9 crossover thing,( was: Crew, Models and Liaisons)
Message-ID: <000a01bfe2fc$4aa61ea0$9ec326cb@marina>
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>>Betty Ragan wrote:
>Well, I need a plot that gets Garak onto the Liberator, allows
>everybody to show off just how devious/amoral/sneaky/really cooly
>anti-heroic they can be, and requires Garak to use his interrogation
>skills at some point (preferably where Avon can see). If you happen to
>have one of those lying around... :)
>
Why not use the usual transporter malfunction or something or even a spacial
rift!! <G>
Min. xxx
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 21:29:04 EDT
From: B7Morrigan@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: fav episodes
Message-ID: <6a.4498442.268ea360@aol.com>
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> Ariana:
>
> > Amazingly, the Narnia stories came recently up on another list I'm on. We
> > then branched off onto Watership Down -- hands up anyone who worshipped
> that
> > book as much as I did (first thing I wrote fanfic for!).
>
> Yeah, I loved 'Watership Down'. And I love the cartoon film as well. I
> wasn't keen on his other books, tho'.
I confess to missing that as a child. I read it last year and thought it was
marvelous. I had a difficult time reading anything else after, nothing stood
up well in comparison. Perhaps while I'm waiting for my zine orders, I'll go
read it again. (smile)
Morrigan (aka Trish)
"I don't mind rough. It's fatal I'm not too keen on. "
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:02:02 +0930
From: "Minnie" <minnie@picknowl.com.au>
To: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>, <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] 'Blake' and beyond
Message-ID: <001201bfe2fc$519f65e0$9ec326cb@marina>
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Sally wrote:
>Now, then, she *could* have died last Friday week ... but actually I do
>agree that he's been there a few months, at least. How (and when and why)
>did he get there? Why does he stay? What was he doing before then? We don't
>know (but whatever it was, it hurt.)
I agree. We dont know if it was just Jennas death that changed him or
something else. But it was big what ever it was.
>
>Do you mean Tando? (Because I went through the transcript and that's the
>only one I can find). Tando wasn't one of their people but a rival bounty
>hunter and 'worse than the people he hunted' (Arlen calls him 'one of your
>erstwhile colleagues, but then at this point she's supposed to think Blake
>is a real bounty hunter too). As I said, grimmer and more detached - Blake,
>like the Scorpio crew, kills more easily than he did before.
I got the impression though that they were is colleagues and that he used
them to round her up and head her in Blakes direction. Scary thought
really if he is now able to kill a colleague to get what he wants.
(although they all went down didnt they so you could be right).
>
>Ah. *That's* where our opinions differ, and there's nothing in the series
to
>go either way. My opinion is that there *must* be an element of
>law-abiding-wannabes (probably hiding in the cities that we don't see) or
>else there wouldn't be this clean-up and bid to rejoin the Federation going
>on (someone had to be organising that, and it wasn't the likes of Tando.)
>People like Klyn. There are 'good' (or semi-good) people in countries
waging
>full-scale civil war, after all.
Hey thats true. Good point. they wouldnt have been able to leave either
because of the blockade. This could be the reason Blake went there. A
chance to help the helpless etc.
Min.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 10:46:44 +0930
From: "Minnie" <minnie@picknowl.com.au>
To: "Lysator List" <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] 'Blake' and beyond
Message-ID: <001101bfe2fc$50374a60$9ec326cb@marina>
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Judith wrote:>
>Decent? A compulive thief, a murderer, an embezzeler (with other frauds in
his
>past too), a smuggler - I doubt the people he found on Gauda Prime would
have
>averaged out much worse. (Given the crime Blake was accused of, I don't
think
>he would have accepted a convicted rapist, but that's just my opinon)
Yeah good point. I guess im biased here because we got to know the
Liberator crew.
Judith wrote:
>It's a close toss as to who was going down the slope fast enough, Avon or
Blake.
>They were both getting harder and more ruthless in spite of being basically
>decent people. They were both getting into 'ends justify means' territory.
>Actually, they were both there already -examples aren't hard to find for
either
>of them. But that is part of the appeal of the series. Perfection is so
>unbelievable.
This is a very good point. I thing they both got out of their depths. It
seems it is easier to be a bad guy (because you dont care who you hurt) than
it is to be a good guy (I use these terms loosely) because you do care who
you hurt.
>Neil wrote:
>I'm with Min here. They were a thoroughly decent bunch of squeaky clean,
>middle class (even Vila) make-believe criminals with all the glam of being
>on the run from the law with none of the grimy banality that gets you
>running in the first place.
Thank you Neil. I wasnt sure If I was getting my view across. I often know
what Im trying to say but I find it hard to put to paper/email. Thats
exactly what I was trying to say.
>Neil wrote:
>Suppose Blake had had to crew his ship with the likes of Ted Bundy, Frankie
>Fraser, the Krays, Ian Brady and fifty squillion England supporters, all of
>them far more likely to get shipped off to Cygnus Alpha than the cuddly
>munch bunch that did sail on the London. As I once said in a Horizon
>letterzine - What did Nova do to get deported? Step on the President's
>hamster?
A very good point. They would make a very scary crew and Blake would be
dead in a week <G>
>Dana wrote:
>I can't get past the fact that apparently destroying Star One would wipe
two
>hundred or so terraformed planets off the board. In fact I can easily
>imagine
>several series about people who happened to be off planet that day, and are
>now EXTREMELY unhappy with Blake.
I had that problem too. I noted a similar problem everytime I watched 'the
Matrix' (14 times <G>) ignorance can sometimes be bliss. Whos right is it
to take that away from you, even in the name of freedom.
Min.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 23:49:43 -0400
From: Meredith Dixon <dixonm@pobox.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] [Off-topic] Greco-Roman comedy
Message-ID: <l0qqlssh57r767n6bf1f6ilmlcr73ttcc3@4ax.com>
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On Sat, 1 Jul 2000 00:30:39 +0100, Neil wrote:
>At the risk of being ultra-pedantic, not to mention pointlessly so, I
>believe the original Broadway production was called "A Funny Thing Happened
>*to me* on the Way to the Forum".
If you mean that literally and narrowly, I suppose it's possible. I've never
seen the ads for its Broadway run.
But the original cast recording is entitled "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way
to the Forum," and its book (i.e., the script in hardbound octavo form, not a
novelization, in case they don't use that term in Britain) is also
called "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum." And every production
of it I've ever seen has been called "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the
Forum". (I've seen three, though all far, far off Broadway.)
So if it was really so called at the opening of its Broadway run, it lost the
extra two syllables pretty quickly.
--
Meredith Dixon <dixonm@pobox.com>
Check out *Raven Days*, for victims and survivors of bullying.
And for those who want to help.
http://www.pobox.com/~dixonm/raven.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 00:01:36 -0400
From: Meredith Dixon <dixonm@pobox.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] [Off-topic] Greco-Roman Comedy
Message-ID: <b2rqlsso3bfdv5f0cmqn9ap5bj257omf17@4ax.com>
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Neil, I was curious enough to double-check, wondering whether it really could
have been released under that title somewhere, perhaps in Britain. Afraid
not. The Library of Congress shows 15 catalog entries, some for the libretto,
some for various recordings. At least one of them was published in London.
All of them bear the title, "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum."
--
Meredith Dixon <dixonm@pobox.com>
Check out *Raven Days*, for victims and survivors of bullying.
And for those who want to help.
http://www.pobox.com/~dixonm/raven.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 00:14:08 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] 'Blake' and beyond
Message-ID: <395D9A3F.BC0B58A4@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Dana Shilling wrote:
> By definition anyone who gets caught is not excessively skillful as a
> criminal. In fact, although Avon is very good at a lot of things that
> could be shown as family entertainment, he's absolutely crap at
> being a criminal--not just the bank fraud, but Harvest of Kairos
> and Gold.
Part of Avon's problem there is that he likes big, dramatic scores.
A big crime is far less likely to go unsolved than a petty one, both
because it's less likely to go unnoticed, and because there is more
incentive for the authorities to spend the effort thwarting or solving it.
Mind you, I don't think you can blame Avon for Kairos; he didn't
plan it, and wasn't much interested in it, from what I saw.
Mistral
--
"Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!"
--Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 00:21:15 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Other peoples mail
Message-ID: <395D9BEA.73AA2BA8@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Kathryn Andersen wrote:
> Geeze, just because I identify with Avon, does that make all my
> stories with Avon in them Mary-Sue-ish?
<g> I ran up against this myself. But then I realized that I'm not
attracted to Soolin in quite that way. And I'd never eat aspic with
pickles and sardines.
Mistral
--
"Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!"
--Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 09:51:27 +0100 (BST)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.1000701095043.16310A-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Una McCormack wrote:
>
> I notice, also, that no-one has leapt to the defence of Thania's greasy
> hair.
Well it gives me the horn.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Thu Jun 29 14:54:35 BST 2000
From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fave episodes/ class status/gender
Message-Id: <200006291359.OAA12059@ns4.uk2net.com>
me:
> (She's great! No,she's evil! Hang on, which side am I on again?) I don't
> think she's a
> > stereotypically evil woman at all. Any more than Blake (or Avon ;) is a
> > stereotypically good (nice) man.
> >
> Ika! What men have you been hanging with that make Blake and Avon look
> stereotypically good? Shudder.
>
>
> Morrigan (aka Trish)
Evil men. Far more evil than Servalan.
Love
Ika
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 09:55:52 +0100 (BST)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: Una McCormack <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Creations
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.1000701095338.16310B-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Una McCormack wrote:
>
> Like Barry Letts and Terrence Dicks, who meet up for a chip supper every
> week, bless.
A chip supper? Jesus. This may be a linguistic issue, but where I come
from 'an X supper' means 'X with chips', as in fish supper, haggis supper,
deep-fried mars bar supper, etc. A chip supper sounds like serious
dedication to the cause of coronary disease.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 00:08:30 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <395D98ED.3BAFE4D7@ptinet.net>
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Sally wrote:
> Fiona wrote:
> <We do see lots of people who are perfectly happy under the Federation, and
> to whom Blake etc. do more damage than the Federation ever did; by contrast
> we also see a lot of horror.>
>
> Actually, could you tell me where we *do* see the former?
<snip>
> I could be wrong, but my impression is that very few people *were* happy
> under the Federation, except those who were part of the power structure
> itself; the majority were either unhappy but passive in the fact of their
> own helplessness, or not in a state to have an opinion at all (e g drugged.)
Part of the problem in discussing this is how do you define 'happy'?
I'm not sure I know anybody IRL who isn't unhappy with some
aspect of the government they live under. It seems to me that the
issue is more a matter of how many people are _unhappy enough
that they would support a violent rebellion_. That number *might*
be very small or very large. Someone who is 'unhappy but passive',
as you put it, is passive because they're not willing to pay the price
of doing something about it, e.g. they would rather live under the
current government than take the risk. Wide-scale rebellion comes
when there is an aggregate mass of people who *are* willing to
pay that price.
In 'Voice' we learn that there are a lot of planetary governors who
would support a bloodless removal of those in power, but would not
support a violent rebellion; that indicates to me that the problem was
not perceived *by them* as a flaw in the system, but rather by the
misuse of a sound system by corrupt people.
Clonemaster Fen didn't seem either drugged or anti-Federation,
though she certainly seemed contemptuous of Servalan and Travis.
Docholli indicated that he didn't see anything wrong with what the
system asked of him, until at risk for a mind-wipe himself.
And possibly the best example, if irritating to some (and you may look
away now, Ika), is Jarvik. He had deliberately taken himself *out* of
the power structure because he simply wasn't interested any more;
he had no qualms about speaking his mind; and yet when given the
opportunity, had equally no qualms about serving his government by
capturing the Liberator, a symbol and effective tool of rebellion. It
doesn't seem that he had any problems with the system.
Jarvik is also an example that demonstrates that either (1) drugging
was not universal or (2) the drugs didn't interfere with mental
functioning and decision-making (and indeed my guess is both, that
the drugs were simply anti-aggressive, and used at specific times
and locations [before the post-war re-expansion.]) If he were
drugged into a state of impairment, he certainly wouldn't have
been able to out-think Tarrant (and a preoccupied Avon as well.)
So I do think that a broad spectrum of attitudes is likely to exist
within the general population; and it's possible that we only see the
extremes because those are the pieces in play, so to speak. To
some number of those people in the middle, Blake and his bunch
would be a worse curse than the Federation. For example, all the
dreamheads that died when he blew up the next crop of shadow.
Just for the sake of discussion,
Mistral
--
"Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!"
--Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 12:10:00 +0200
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <inquisitioner@wish.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re:[B7L] Re:B7/DS9 crossover thing
Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20000701120151.00a7eee0@pop3.wish.net>
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At 15:51 30-6-00, Minnie wrote:
> >>Betty Ragan wrote:
> >Well, I need a plot that gets Garak onto the Liberator, allows
> >everybody to show off just how devious/amoral/sneaky/really cooly
> >anti-heroic they can be, and requires Garak to use his interrogation
> >skills at some point (preferably where Avon can see). If you happen to
> >have one of those lying around... :)
> >
>
>Why not use the usual transporter malfunction or something or even a spacial
>rift!! <G>
>
>Min. xxx
It's easy: have Garak take a trip through the wormhole, and the prophets
are going to see that this guy is clearly in the wrong universe. So they
transport him to the Liberator, because it happens to be in a convenient
spot. Just use the word "nexus" and everybody will swallow that explanation
because years of ST have conditioned us to do so. Or use the phrase "trans
dimensional time rift", which clearly explains everything from shifting
universes to the Dutch football team losing the match.
As for torture: wasn't Garak's stare supposed to be his most important
interrogation tool? Just get him into a staring match with Avon. And I'd
love to read the ensuing exchange of insults.
Jacqueline
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 03:12:56 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Screens (the technology of vision)
Message-ID: <20000701101256.37113.qmail@hotmail.com>
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Gnog wrote:
<How about Servalan only stunning Jarvik, rather than killing him, and
Jarvik joining the crew, set on overthrowing a Federation regime so cold,
heartless and dependant on technology ? A three way struggle for control?>
Murder on the Liberator Express, IMHO - I got the distinct impression Avon
*really* took a dislike to Jarvik (which is of course one reason *I* think
it'd be fun having him there :-)) I agree with Ika that Jarvik's obnoxious,
though *not* as bad as Piri or Governer Le Not-so-Grande) but then I have
the feeling that was what the actor (if not the writer) was aiming for. All
that macho posing, and that *laugh* ...
Kairos comes under the heading of episodes I like in spite of their faults
(along with The Web, Destiny, Deliverance, Orac, Voice from the Past,
Warlord ...). And Jarvik is both one of the biggest faults, and one of the
reasons I do enjoy it (does anyone else cheer when he gets his?) I find him
nearly as funny as Brian ...
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Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:28:03 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <008a01bfe348$2bd5de10$0d01a8c0@codex>
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Sally wrote:
> Fiona wrote:
> <We do see lots of people who are perfectly happy under the Federation,
and
> to whom Blake etc. do more damage than the Federation ever did; by
contrast
> we also see a lot of horror.>
>
> Actually, could you tell me where we *do* see the former? This is a
serious
> question (for those who think I'm one-eyed about the topic :-)) since my
> overall impression is that - except for those functionaries of the power
> structure or straight-out rebels - themselves, we *see* precious little of
> anyone who might have an opinion either way. The hoi polloi are kept
firmly
> off-stage, and while we *hear* a few scraps about passive support for
Blake
> (from "all sorts of citizens from Alphas to labor grades") I don't
actually
> recall many people outside the government or the military who might be
said
> to support the staus quo, except for the scientists on Fosferon (perhaps)
> and Professor Kayn in Breakdown.
There's the lawyer and his wife in TWB.
> I could be wrong, but my impression is that very few people *were* happy
> under the Federation, except those who were part of the power structure
> itself; the majority were either unhappy but passive in the fact of their
> own helplessness, or not in a state to have an opinion at all (e g
drugged.)
Ah - but this is the point: give enough people sufficient interest in the
status quo, however iniquitous, and they'll go on and maintain it for you.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 11:45:03 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <009101bfe349$6c534ee0$0d01a8c0@codex>
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Fiona wrote:
> Now let's take fascist Italy: a totalitarian dictatorship
> and an unforgivable one, with a regime merciless to its opponents and
> notoriously given to activities like chucking "degenerate" art out of
> windows and deporting foreigners-- and yet I know of elderly Sicilians who
> have (rather quietly) remarked that they were grateful for the rise in
> living standards and the suppression of the Mafiosi.
>
> I am not in favour of fascism or of totalitarianism of any sort, but I
think
> one can't characterise any regime as *inherently* good or evil. Even the
> Federation.
Fiona, I take your point that there are swings and roundabouts in most
societies (the US example was a good example, the fascist Italy one even
more interesting). But I do think that one can reasonably describe societies
as structurally 'evil' or structurally 'good' (and this is even coming from
Ms Hyper-Relativist, and containing all the usual caveats on
value-judgements!). But this doesn't preclude good societies from doing bad
things and bad societies doing good things.
Hereby forgoing victory in this argument, I invoke Nazi Germany, which I
think one could reasonably suggest was a structurally evil regime,
predicated on waging war, economically dependent on slave labour, and
ideologically committed to the eradication of specific sections of its
society.
There are also societies which are structurally flawed and end up on the
road to self-destruction: Harriet supplied an interesting example elsewhere,
in which she described how the Spartan ruling class eventually endangered
its own existence by the rigid application of laws which tended to reduce
the numbers of people who qualified to belong to it. (Directly lifting your
words there - sorry, Harriet: cut'n'paste is too much of a temptation!)
Whether one would apply the words 'good' or 'evil' is another question, but
you could at least say, 'not terribly effective' <g>
As always in this type of discussion, I end up thinking of Ursula Le Guin's
short story, 'The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas', in which a society is
knowingly founded on a specific act of cruelty to a single individual.
To drag this post kicking and screaming OT... the Federation. Well, I'd say
it had structural problems, as societies go. We can guess that it formed in
response to unique pressures (the Atomic War), and used specific tools to
enforce obedience in order to survive. From this emerged a society which was
militaristic, and drugged and exploited substantial parts of its population,
but left enough people with an interest in maintaining the status quo to,
um, maintain the status quo.
My feeling is always that we're coming in at a point where the brutality and
totalitarianism can no longer be justified (if they ever could be) in terms
of protecting humanity, and that's why we see the rebellions emerging. The
irony is that the rebellion has to be as vicious as the regime its trying to
replace. Even in its opposition, the Federation creates brutality.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 03:53:25 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <20000701105325.45361.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Una wrote:
<Ah - but this is the point: give enough people sufficient interest in the
status quo, however iniquitous, and they'll go on and maintain it for you.>
So how many *would* have come into this category in something like the
Federation? Hard to say ... the problem, of course, with answering *this*
one is that, the series being what it is, the story of
Our-Heroes-vs-The-Powers-That-Be, is that most of the people we see are one,
the other, or allies thereof, so all have vested interests (yes, even the
Less-Than-Committed-Heroes like Vila and Avon :-)) There are a couple of
times that Servalan gets lectured by representatives of the President on
Blake's popular support, therefore it can (IMHO) be said to be canonical;
there aren't any where the widespread loyalty of Federation citizens gets
airplay (that doesn't mean that someone *didn't* lecture Blake at one stage
about it, just that Sally can't recall any canonical instances, but would be
interested if anyone else can ...)
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:17:01 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Creations
Message-ID: <00b901bfe34d$e7597610$0d01a8c0@codex>
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Iain wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2000, Una McCormack wrote:
>
> >
> > Like Barry Letts and Terrence Dicks, who meet up for a chip supper every
> > week, bless.
>
> A chip supper? Jesus. This may be a linguistic issue, but where I come
> from 'an X supper' means 'X with chips', as in fish supper, haggis supper,
> deep-fried mars bar supper, etc. A chip supper sounds like serious
> dedication to the cause of coronary disease.
I think it's a linguistic thing. I mean 'a trip to the chip shop'.
Although chips with chips does sound smashing.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 07:28:13 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Message-ID: <20000701.075409.-31933.1.rilliara@juno.com>
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On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:33:24 +0100 "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
writes:
>
> The two can work in tandem. The Cheeky Cockney does not deny the
> inequalities, rather he is there to affirm their validity. He is
> not a
> safety valve, but a salve for upper class guilt.
OK, started a reply to this, which I think I accidentally sent off to
Neil in an incomplete and, no doubt, incoherent state.
Simply put, I realize I don't really get the Cheeky Cockney as such, no
gut reaction on the stereotype issue. I'd guess it's because too many
Americans are descended from Cockneys, cheeky or otherwise. We have a
lot of what are essentially inversions of certain elements of British
class structure (or the class structure as it used to be). We tend to
lionize people who work for a living - starting out poor working class
and becoming rich is a popular story - but don't really trust the rich or
upper class once we feel they're seperated from the rest of us (the main
argument used in drumming up popular support against a tax cut or in
favor of a tax hike seems to be telling people the rich are getting away
with something, even though considerable historical evidence shows that,
once enacted, the government defines this 'tax on the rich' as applying
to everyone who actually has any money at all).
Yes, there are ethnic stereotypes, but they don't exactly translate. I
realized once that the social equivalent of My Fair Lady in America would
be to present an African American woman in the same time period wanting
to learn to pass for white - and that casting the play to present that
would probably make it too offensive to present around here. Call it
different cultural landmines.
So, back to Vila. To me, he'll always be the scared guy who got picked
on by the schoolyard bullies and will go to any lengths to appease them
or avoid conflict - even when it's not necessarily the bullies he's
dealing with anymore (his friends are tough personalities who often show
bullying tendencies, but they aren't Servalan).
Ellynne
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Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 07:37:24 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <20000701.075409.-31933.2.rilliara@juno.com>
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On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:11:57 +0100 "Nyder"
<nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net> writes:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew Ellis <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
> To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 10:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
>
>
> > From: Ellynne G.
>
> > >Sadly, I think Blake saw himself more as a reformer than a
> revolutionary.
>
> Not sure about that-- but Morrigan said it better than I could. On
> occasion,
> though, I wonder if Blake *did* have a coherent platform or whether
> he was
> just aware that the moment he crossed the line it was only a matter
> of time
> before he was tracked down, and was just going to go down with as
> much fight
> as possible.
>
> > I might agree with the "removing evil from the healthy body" bit.
> But
> > doesn't "healthy body" kind of suggest that the Federation, as
> such, is
> not
> > fundamentally evil, but rather a force for "good", that is
> suffering from
> a
> > degree of corruption ?
>
The thing about Blake is that he was willing to go to incredible lengths
to change the Federation, but he also never seemed to have a plan
outlining what he wanted in its place. Rather than assume he's one of
those dense revolutionaries who get so focused on overthrowing the Evil
Overlord they never consider this, I have to assume he saw the basic
structure as redeemable (since we don't really know what the basic
structure was and how much certain nastiness could be blamed on 'corrupt'
elements vs inherent [or how much someone who'd been raised with a rosy
view of it (even if they changed their mind) might still harbor delusions
on this issue], it's hard to say how nuts that would be).
He did seem to accept the class structure, as far as Vila and some others
goes, but not the abuses it led to (people not being punished for crimes
against lower orders).
Then again, maybe he was just one of those optimists who believed you
only had to remove the corrupt structure and natural goodness would
assert itself.
Then again, maybe I'm missing something.
Ellynne
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Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 07:54:07 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Other peoples mail
Message-ID: <20000701.075409.-31933.3.rilliara@juno.com>
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On Sat, 1 Jul 2000 09:58:45 +1000 Kathryn Andersen
<kat@welkin.apana.org.au> writes:
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2000 at 09:29:19AM -0600, Ellynne G. wrote:
OK, OK, I admit it, I have no idea why it bothers me to be identified
with a fictional character I like and that I _do_ identify with. I know
the same thing happened as a kid in school when they asked us which of a
bunch of historical characters we identified with and I couldn't come up
with an answer - admired and would like (in some areas) to be more like,
yes, I could say that. But _identify_ with? That seemed to be saying a
bit much. I went through the quick list of everyone I could think of
since the dawn of time and couldn't find one.
This probably has something to do with some repressed trauma or maybe I
spent a little too much time as a kid pointing out that wanting to be
'_just_ like' someone was an unachievable goal likely to lead to stress,
disappointment, and destruction of what made you unique. After all, I
lectured my third grade teacher on statistics (I think she knew better,
but the subject matter was simplified for the class - and I still say it
was a lousy way to predict sales) once and got very defensive when she
objected to my use of certain poetic devices in my papers, so
overthinking things has been my hallmark from pretty early on.
Then again, maybe I'm just being neurotic again.
Ellynne
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Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 16:35:43 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Women we like
Message-ID: <017901bfe372$0799cc80$0d01a8c0@codex>
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Neil:
> Just keep your wits about you in future, and be extra cautious of
> anything that shuffles.
I already knew not to trust anyone in slippers.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 16:34:50 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] ZENITH IS HERE...
Message-ID: <017801bfe372$0748ed60$0d01a8c0@codex>
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Fiona wrote:
> I just got my contributor's copy (shameless bias warning) and I have to
say
> it is great. The cover exceeds expectations (love the picture of Brian
> Croucher on the back. Why isn't this man playing big-man-on-the-manor in
> any of the recent spate of cockney-gangster films?).
The title of the Croucher article is just brilliant - 'Lock, Stock, and Two
Smoking Fingers': heh!
Travis 2 people, 'Zenith' really is a must for you.
> The articles, my own
> efforts aside, are thus far excellent--
I loved your idea for film revivals: the picture of Darrow in Trek costume
was just this side of disturbing... <g>
> To add to this praise, my flatmate, who is a non-fan and has never seen
any
> B7, borrowed my copy (before I'd had a chance to read it, the beggar) and
> was equally impressed; said it was better than three-quarters of the
> professionally produced stuff out there.
Matthew was dead impressed as well, and he's a notorious miserable git.
> Let's have an Issue 2, Andy, please? Willing to help in any capacity but
the
> financial...
Seconded, Andy.
Una
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End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #185
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