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blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 186
Today's Topics:
[B7L] Re: DS9 crossover (was Re: Crew, Models and Liaisons)
Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
Re: [B7L] [Off-topic] Greco-Roman Comedy
Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
Re: [B7L] Re: Sandy Denny
Re: [B7L] 'Blake' and beyond
Re: [B7L] Screens (the technology of vision)
Re: Re:[B7L] Re:B7/DS9 crossover thing,( was: Crew, Models and Liaisons)
Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Re: [B7L] Priceline (was Posting fanfic?)
[B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L] Screens (the technology of vision)
Re: [B7L] Screens (the technology of vision)
Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
Re: [B7L] Other peoples mail
Re: [B7L] Re: fav episodes
Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
[B7L] Re: Zenith is Here
Re: Re:[B7L] Re:B7/DS9 crossover thing,( was: Crew, Models and Liaisons)
Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing
Re: [B7L] Vila (was Greco-Roman comedy)
Re: [B7L] Creations
Re: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
[B7L] Midsummer Night's Dream
Re: [B7L] Richard Adams (was Re: fav episodes)
Re: [B7L] Creations
Re: [B7L] Creations
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:35:41 -0600 (MDT)
From: Betty Ragan <bragan@aoc.nrao.edu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: DS9 crossover (was Re: Crew, Models and Liaisons)
Message-Id: <200007011835.MAA29212@zia.aoc.NRAO.EDU>
Una wrote:
> > > How about Garak using those skills *on* Avon? ;-)
> >
> > Ohh! Ooh! But, no, then Avon would have to kill him, and I couldn't
> > bear that. (Avon is just so much less forgiving than Odo...) 'Tis a
> > lovely thought, though...
>
> Easy: they need to keep Garak alive because only he can do something of
> vital importance for them.
Oh, that could work well enough, but I think I might prefer the idea
of there being an ambiguity between whether they're going to be best
friends or worst enemies. :)
> > > Mail me mail me mail me mail me! We can brainstorm! Want want WANT this
> > > story!
> >
> > [LOL!] I'm not going to get out of this, am I? Well, OK, in that
> > case, I can use all the help I can get... :)
>
> :)
Sigh. Tell ya what, anybody who, for some sadistic reason, really
*wants* to help me brainstorm on this one, drop me a line at
ragan@sdc.org.
> Plot is just what characters do to each other.
Heh. That does sound like words to live by. :)
> :) Just set them off at each other and see where they take you.
That may just be the way to do it... Ususally I like to have
everything planned out before I set fingers to keyboard, but I suppose
that's not really *necessary*, is it?
> You don't
> have to write Garak, he does all his own talking.
True enough... Although I really *do* need to go back and re-watch
some of the Garak episodes. Right now, he's not talking in my head
*nearly* as clearly as Avon.
--
Betty Ragan ** bragan@nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan
Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise.
"Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a
tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:00:23 -0600 (MDT)
From: Betty Ragan <bragan@aoc.nrao.edu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
Message-Id: <200007011900.NAA29635@zia.aoc.NRAO.EDU>
> But Neil, I already *said* we all got distinctly different sets of the 52
> episodes. And yes, <gurgle> it was thrice and I can point to the
> fuzzying-through-rewinding places too (single-minded? moi?). That's why he's
> in such a poisonous mood, of course. Doing The Right Thing Once makes him
> bad-tempered enough (anyone need proof of that???) but three times in one
> day ...
[Pauses for thought, counts on fingers, frowns puzzledly.] Three?
Somehow I'm only coming up with two... And I *know* I got the same
set of tapes as you, Sally! Obviously must watch the episode again
and pay extra-special attention this time. Whee!
(Except I just got "Warlord"/"Blake" -- thus finally completing my
video set! -- and I have to watch that first. Don't be surprised if I
come back here sobbing wretchedly afterwards, though. :))
> Sally - who unashamedly and unabashedly sees the whole series as a backdrop
> for you-know-what, but is having problems trying to fit Ultraworld through
> to Deathwatch into this (but has not given up) :-)
Ah, well, you see, *that* period is the point where Avon's just
started to bounce back from the whole losing-Blake thing (and from
"Rumours" as well), and to reconcile himself to the idea that Blake's
probably not coming back. So "Ultraworld" through "Deathwatch"
*don't* directly relate to you-know-what: they're actually a run of
episodes that have nothing at all to do with Blake in order to lull
us (and Avon) into a false sense of security and thinking that it's
finally all over and done with -- until "Terminal" comes along and
socks us in the gut.
How's that? ;)
--
Betty Ragan ** bragan@nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan
Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise.
"Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a
tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:21:19 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] [Off-topic] Greco-Roman Comedy
Message-ID: <000a01bfe392$1f3a2d60$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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From: Meredith Dixon <dixonm@pobox.com>
> Neil, I was curious enough to double-check, wondering whether it really
could
> have been released under that title somewhere, perhaps in Britain. Afraid
> not. The Library of Congress shows 15 catalog entries, some for the
libretto,
> some for various recordings. At least one of them was published in
London.
> All of them bear the title, "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the
Forum."
Then my sources, whatever they were, must be wrong, but I have definitely
seen it listed under the longer title somewhere. Possibly one of those
self-replicating little errors of unknown origin.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:12:08 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
Message-ID: <000901bfe392$1e5858e0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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From: <B7Morrigan@aol.com>
> Neil wrote
> > Thania is clearly a woman who views spotty chins and greasy hair in
their
> > due sense of proportion, and I want her telephone number *now*.
>
> Una, I'm think if we don't bathe for a week, we'd have the hair and
possibly
> the spotty chin, the politics however...
Two out of three will do.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:10:03 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Sandy Denny
Message-ID: <000801bfe392$1d5c93c0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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From: Una McCormack <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
> Neil wrote:
> > I gather she's dead
> > now.
>
> Yes, she died in the early 1970s, I believe.
April 21st 1978, of a brain haemorrhage.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:48:25 -0600 (MDT)
From: Betty Ragan <bragan@aoc.nrao.edu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] 'Blake' and beyond
Message-Id: <200007011948.NAA00614@zia.aoc.NRAO.EDU>
Ellynne wrote:
> Jenna - We know she won't smuggle certain drugs and possibly other
> goods.
We also know she had at least some dealings with the rebels, in the
form of Avalon. It is entirely possible, within the framework of
canon, to view Jenna as a completely "good guy" smuggler: running
supplies to the rebels and doing her bit to take down the Federation
even before she met Blake. I wouldn't necessarily go quite that far,
myself, but in terms of the discussion of Our Protagonists'
criminality being depicted as relatively sanatized and tame, I'd say
it's relevant that that possibility, at least, is left open.
--
Betty Ragan ** bragan@nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan
Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise.
"Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a
tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:52:08 -0600 (MDT)
From: Betty Ragan <bragan@aoc.nrao.edu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Screens (the technology of vision)
Message-Id: <200007011952.NAA00688@zia.aoc.NRAO.EDU>
Ika wrote:
> I'm afraid I hate Jarvik more than anyone else in the B7 universe, so this
> prospect fills me with cold shuddering.
Yes! I am not alone! The very thought of Jarvik joining the
Liberator makes me nauseous. I hate Jarvik with a deep, abiding, and
utterly irrational loathing. His very presence makes the episode
nearly unwatchable for me. But I had just about resigned myself to
suffering in isolation. :)
--
Betty Ragan ** bragan@nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan
Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise.
"Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a
tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:53:59 -0600 (MDT)
From: Betty Ragan <bragan@aoc.nrao.edu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, minnie@picknowl.com.au
Subject: Re: Re:[B7L] Re:B7/DS9 crossover thing,( was: Crew, Models and Liaisons)
Message-Id: <200007011953.NAA00753@zia.aoc.NRAO.EDU>
Minnie wrote:
> Why not use the usual transporter malfunction or something or even a spacial
> rift!! <G>
Well, sure, that's the *easy* part! :)
--
Betty Ragan ** bragan@nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan
Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise.
"Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a
tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:04:45 +0100
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Message-ID: <008801bfe397$b482c8a0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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Ellyne said -
>Simply put, I realize I don't really get the Cheeky Cockney as such, no
>gut reaction on the stereotype issue.
This is just because 'Cockney' doesn't mean anything much in America, not
that the 'luvable cheery poor person' stereotype doesn't exist in US films
and TV shows.
The key points are
- not well off, and in a low status role in society
- noticeably lower class in accent, appearance, clothing (often overweight)
- not keen to 'better' themselves ('too much like hard work')
- a key pointer is that this person is more *sensual* that the higher social
status person. He/she drinks or eats more, or is more sexual, or likes to
sit around watching TV. He/she lacks refined tastes, and isn't good on
deferred gratification or exercise
Now apply these rules to your own media, and I think you'll spot a few
matches.
>We tend to
>lionize people who work for a living - starting out poor working class
>and becoming rich is a popular story - but don't really trust the rich or
>upper class once we feel they're seperated from the rest of us
I honestly feel that you are looking at your own society through rosey specs
there, Ellyne. In fact the most common criticism of England that I've heard
from Americans is the exact reverse of this, that you are more keen to
celebrate success and more encouraging of 'get rich quick' attitudes than we
are.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 16:10:01 EDT
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Priceline (was Posting fanfic?)
Message-ID: <8e.72f1b74.268faa19@aol.com>
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In a message dated 6/28/00 1:44:49 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
bragan@aoc.nrao.edu writes:
> Oh, dear god, now I've got this horrible image (erm, what's the
> auditory equivalent of "image?") of PD singing "The Ballad of Bilbo
> Baggins," a la *Nimoy*... and a sudden urge to run away screaming
> "aargh!"
An entirely understandable reaction! On the other hand, it could hardly be
much *worse* than the original.
<gag>
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 14:23:41 -0600 (MDT)
From: Betty Ragan <bragan@aoc.nrao.edu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing
Message-Id: <200007012023.OAA01137@zia.aoc.NRAO.EDU>
Jacqueline wrote:
> As for torture: wasn't Garak's stare supposed to be his most important
> interrogation tool?
Yes, there was the incident where he supposedly just stared at a guy
for a couple of hours and got him to break completely. (They hauled
the fellow off screaming "His eyes! His eyes!") But, while on the
one hand, that particular detail amuses me greatly (and, having *seen*
Garak's eyes, I believe it completely and immediately), there is
something about that that really bothers me. And, yeah, I know this
is off-topic, but it ties into a current B7 discussion here, so bear
with me a moment if you would... Because it's that whole thing again
about downplaying the dark, criminal side of a character.
Interrogating somebody by just *staring* at them seems harmless and
funny, and we can be presented with the image of Garak doing this
without losing any sympathy for his character or feeling particularly
disturbed or disquieted. But that doesn't change the fact that,
however likable and charming he is, Garak used to torture people for a
living. He might not have *enjoyed* it in quite the way Shrinker did
(I like to think he didn't, and, judging from his book, Andrew Robison
(Garak) seems to agree with me). But he was very, very, good at it.
Anyway, if I was going to have Garak interrogating somebody, I'd feel
rather compelled not to whitewash it. (Although, come to think of
it, I'm not at all sure I could convincingly write a torture scene,
particularly not for Garak. Hmm.)
> Just get him into a staring match with Avon. And I'd
> love to read the ensuing exchange of insults.
All of the above, of course, does not mean that an Avon/Garak staring
contest would not be fun. And the exchange of insults is practically
an inevitability. :)
--
Betty Ragan ** bragan@nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan
Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise.
"Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a
tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 22:38:36 +0100
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <013c01bfe539$7fff5640$184e063e@leanet>
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>Una wrote:
><Ah - but this is the point: give enough people sufficient interest in the
>status quo, however iniquitous, and they'll go on and maintain it for you.>
>
>So how many *would* have come into this category in something like the
>Federation?
Not that I subscribe to the "evil Federation that drugged and exploited
people" point of view, but....
The way you get large sectors of the population to have an interest in the
status quo is to ensure that different groups of people have different
values. SO one grade (beta's ?), covert material wealth, and are willing to
work all hours to get it. Others (delta's ?) enjoy a family life, and accept
a lower level of material possessions, because they "value other things".
And another group is clearly suppressed (gamma's ?), but they are offered
ways out of poverty. Mix in peer groups, so that people only compare things
locally rather than across the entire Federation, myths about the status of
other professions, rumours that the grade system is a thing of the past and
you can do what you want, offer education as a way of bettering yourself.
Make people believe that they have worked for what they have got. Now you
can have a society where most people are content with their lot, even though
a very few people actually have nearly everything. They worry about losing
what they have got, and are so interested in the status quo.
Gnog
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 22:17:52 +0100
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Screens (the technology of vision)
Message-ID: <013b01bfe539$7f1d81c0$184e063e@leanet>
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>Gnog:
>
>> But, you are correct, the main screen on the liberator does not display a
>> direct optical image, but an image processed by the computer. As such it
is
>> equally likely to be inaccurate as any other information the computers
>> present. I think what Jarvik is refering to is that he has an instinct
that
>> there is a conflict between the two forms of data (main screen and Zen's
>> verbal report). [snip] On the whole this scene comes down to the theme of
>> the episode. Servalan believes the direct output of the computer
>> unquestioningly, and acts to minimise her personal danger. Jarvik
interprets
>> all of the information presented to him, takes into acount the human
>> element, trusts his instincts, and takes calculated risks.
>
>Ha! Ha! I *knew* it! Just because *we* know Jarvik is right doesn't mean he
>actually has a likely chance of being right! (Sorry, the whole "I'm a
natural
>man" thing gets on my nerves.
Exactly.
>> How about Servalan only stunning Jarvik, rather than killing him, and
Jarvik
>> joining the crew, set on overthrowing a Federation regime so cold,
heartless
>> and dependant on technology ? A three way struggle for control ?
>
>I'm afraid I hate Jarvik more than anyone else in the B7 universe, so this
>prospect fills me with cold shuddering. But, past the cold shuddering, I
can't
>see Tarrant trying to overrule him that much - too much FSA conditioning in
>their pasts. What *would* be interesting to me would be the ex-Federation
vibe
>between them, and how that would affect the politics of the season.
>
And again, precisely the point. It wouldn't work, but (in B7) who would turn
away a man with such apparent skills just because he doesn't fit in ?
And the tension between motivations for fighting.
And the possibilities between Jarvik and Dayna, both of whom want revenge
and enjoy the physical side of combat.
The eventual integration into the crew, and forging of common goals, even if
unspoken.
Not the ideal crew. But excellent television, in the best traditions of B7.
Gnog.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 22:02:31 +0100
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Screens (the technology of vision)
Message-ID: <013a01bfe539$7e541740$184e063e@leanet>
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>Gnog wrote about message transmission:
>
>> It appears so, but they do appear to travel at a FINITE speed.......What
about loss, what about
>> the divergence of the beam.
>>
>It would seem that there would have to be some sort of regeneration device,
>relay stations that boost the signal in some type of hubbing arrangement
>rather like long distance tandem switches. Of course, that would give our
>heroes some lovely targets; take out the relay stations and cut out an
entire
>sector's communications with the rest of the galaxy.
>
>Morrigan (aka Trish)
You are correct. To overcome that one you could send the signal to more than
one hub at once, just in case. But even with a network of communication
stages, its still a long way to go from one planetary system to the other.
If I recall correctly, the Mars probe communicates at less than one bit per
second, because of signal loss / beam divergence. When you "hear" messages
intercepted by the liberator, they sound awfully like 30 kbit/s modems to
me, which is like four orders of magnitude more launch power (at least),
just to get to Mars.
Gnog
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 20:36:54 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
Message-ID: <000601bfe3ac$323557e0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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From: Betty Ragan <bragan@aoc.nrao.edu>
> > But Neil, I already *said* we all got distinctly different sets of the
52
> > episodes. And yes, <gurgle> it was thrice and I can point to the
> > fuzzying-through-rewinding places too (single-minded? moi?). That's why
he's
> > in such a poisonous mood, of course. Doing The Right Thing Once makes
him
> > bad-tempered enough (anyone need proof of that???) but three times in
one
> > day ...
>
> [Pauses for thought, counts on fingers, frowns puzzledly.] Three?
> Somehow I'm only coming up with two...
Still two more than I can come up with.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 15:31:35 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Other peoples mail
Message-ID: <20000701223135.9163.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Kathryn wrote:
<Geeze, just because I identify with Avon, does that make all my stories
with Avon in them Mary-Sue-ish?>
And I identify with Jarriere. Should I worry?
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 00:08:04 +0100
From: "Ariana" <ariana@ndirect.co.uk>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: fav episodes
Message-ID: <011801bfe3b3$84ba0d60$48e107c3@ariana>
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From: Una McCormack <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
> Yeah, I loved 'Watership Down'. And I love the cartoon film as well. I
> wasn't keen on his other books, tho'.
"Shardik" was quite good, but "Maya" was heavy going. I haven't tried
anything else by him; "Watership Down" was evidently his masterpiece. Read
that and you'll certainly never look at rabbits the same ever again.
Ariana
http://www.alpha.ndirect.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:19:23 EDT
From: B7Morrigan@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Message-ID: <65.66b6f15.268ff29b@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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> This is just because 'Cockney' doesn't mean anything much in America, not
> that the 'luvable cheery poor person' stereotype doesn't exist in US films
> and TV shows.
>The key points are
>- not well off, and in a low status role in society
>- noticeably lower class in accent, appearance, clothing (often overweight)
>- not keen to 'better' themselves ('too much like hard work')
>- a key pointer is that this person is more *sensual* that the higher social
>status person. He/she drinks or eats more, or is more sexual, or likes to
>sit around watching TV. He/she lacks refined tastes, and isn't good on
>deferred gratification or exercise
>
I will definitely have to back Alison on the "Cheeky Cockney" appearance in
the US. Generally it is depicted by region. You'll see specific targets in
Southerners, rednecks, hillbillies, folks who live in the Appalachians,
immigrants, etc. It is amazing to me as a resident of the Northeast how many
people make derogatory comments about Southerners. It's a pet peeve in the
family since my brother-in-law and his family are Southerners. He happens to
be a graduate of West Point and a Ph.D. candidate in physics, and the rest of
his family is pretty similar.
And don't get me started on the stereotyping by ethnic origin or race.
Signed,
the overpriviledged, upper middle class white kid who is definitely not a
liberal, just a realist,
Morrigan (aka Trish)
"I don't mind rough. It's fatal I'm not too keen on. "
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:57:17 EDT
From: JEB31538@cs.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Zenith is Here
Message-ID: <99.6fb9037.268ffb7d@cs.com>
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> >Let's have an Issue 2, Andy, please? Willing to help in any capacity but
> the > >financial...
>
> :)
> Thanks Fiona, pleased you liked it.
> There will be another one, providing people buy this one first...
> >
> Andy.
>
I've ordered my copy of ZENITH but haven't got it yet. Andy, I do hope
that ZENITH becomes a series, but I realize you need people to buy issue # 1
to let you know if it's worth pursuing. So, EVERYONE out there, ORDER a
copy of ZENITH from Judith Proctor. http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
I think it's up to us B7 fans to show that there is a market for a new B7
fanzine/magazine. B7 in print will die unless we support it.
Andy, I'm a big Blake fan so I hope that issue # 2 has a few things about
Blake and, also, perhaps Gareth Thomas in it.
Joyce Bowen
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 11:40:43 +0930
From: "Minnie" <minnie@picknowl.com.au>
To: "Betty Ragan" <bragan@aoc.nrao.edu>, <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Re:[B7L] Re:B7/DS9 crossover thing,( was: Crew, Models and Liaisons)
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>Minnie wrote:
>
>> Why not use the usual transporter malfunction or something or even a
spacial
>> rift!! <G>
>Betty Ragan
>Well, sure, that's the *easy* part! :)
LOL!!!! Well whats stopping you <G>
Min.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 22:13:52 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Message-ID: <20000701.221651.-79371.0.rilliara@juno.com>
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On Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:04:45 +0100 "Alison Page"
<alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Ellyne said -
>
> >Simply put, I realize I don't really get the Cheeky Cockney as
> such, no
> >gut reaction on the stereotype issue.
>
> This is just because 'Cockney' doesn't mean anything much in
> America, not
> that the 'luvable cheery poor person' stereotype doesn't exist in US
> films
> and TV shows.
>
> The key points are
>
> - not well off, and in a low status role in society
> - noticeably lower class in accent, appearance, clothing (often
> overweight)
> - not keen to 'better' themselves ('too much like hard work')
> - a key pointer is that this person is more *sensual* that the
> higher social
> status person. He/she drinks or eats more, or is more sexual, or
> likes to
> sit around watching TV. He/she lacks refined tastes, and isn't good
> on
> deferred gratification or exercise
>
> Now apply these rules to your own media, and I think you'll spot a
> few
> matches.
>
> >We tend to
> >lionize people who work for a living - starting out poor working
> class
> >and becoming rich is a popular story - but don't really trust the
> rich or
> >upper class once we feel they're seperated from the rest of us
>
> I honestly feel that you are looking at your own society through
> rosey specs
> there, Ellyne. In fact the most common criticism of England that
> I've heard
> from Americans is the exact reverse of this, that you are more keen
> to
> celebrate success and more encouraging of 'get rich quick' attitudes
> than we
> are.
Miscommunication. That's part of what I meant. In a lot of films and
books, if it's to make money or gain success, any amount of cut throat
activity is presented as admirable (people who inherit money, on the
other hand, are shown much more negatively, generally for assuming they
have a right to lord it over everyone else [the self made rich types also
do this but, even when presented negatively, it tends to be presented as
part of the take charge attitude that got them where they are).
It's the dark side of Horatio Alger, the idea that, if you fail, you're
not trying, mixed with the idea of individual worth=net worth. That's
_not_ rosy. That's scary.
Yes, there's a negative image associated with blue collar types.
However, it's also associated with certain characteristics we value.
There often presented as lacking pretense, being extremely realistic and
practical. I could list the American heroes who were poor, common men
who succeded when 'book learned' experts said it was impossible (that
practical-real thing over the artificial). We do it even when history
doesn't actually support the story (Newsbreak: all the highly educated
types in Columbus' day believed the world was round and had for
centuries. Columbus just thought it was a smaller ball than they did.
Please note, Columbus was wrong - but his misestimate was just about the
right distance to get you to the Americas).
Take a look at Rockwell's The Four Freedoms. The man standing up to
speak his mind in the public assembly comes across as the plain, simple,
but honest type, probably a farmer with little public education. In our
mythos, he's the person you expect to see honestly precisely because he
hasn't been corrupted by all that other stuff.
Also, take those very sweet movies like It's a Wonderful Life (Potter has
money which we never see him earn, Potter is bad [the friend who made his
fortune by his own enterprise in plastics, though not as good as George,
helps save the day by offering $25,000 at the end [George, who helps
other people achieve the American dream and it's financial security, is
the hero]). Then there's that Capra movie about the guy who inherits the
fortune, doesn't like free loaders like the arts, and is in danger of
being put in a mental hospital by the corrupt and greedy when he tries to
use his money to help those in need).
And you're right. I'll say it again: The dark side of this coin is a
tendency to see get rich quick as a virtue to be pursued - and to blame
those who fail.
However, this still doesn't mean I have the right emotional response to
Vila as the Cheeky Cockney. It's like I never realized how much of Jane
Eyre I was missing on an emotional level till I saw a version that made
me think of Mr. Rochester _not_ as the wealthy gentleman but as part of a
clique - and Jane as one of the people excluded from the clique.
Cliques, I have a gut level response to.
Yes, I've read about New Yorkers taking speech classes to improve their
job prospects. I've heard how a lot of people knock ten points off the
estimated I.Q. when hearing a southern accent. America is not as
classless as it likes to pretend.
But we also interpret things by our own experience. My emotional
response to Vila is still of the kid who's always been picked on at the
playground. He has weaknesses I don't admire, like his drinking and his
ability to cave in to almost any temptation in less time than it takes
for him to be tempted, but he makes me think more of a little three year
old I would like to protect (but most likely won't ever admire).
Ellynne,
Who admits she should be able to say these things consisely but can't.
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 09:40:30 +0200
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <inquisitioner@wish.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing
Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20000702090110.00a80b40@pop3.wish.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
At 22:23 1-7-00, Betty Ragan wrote:
>Jacqueline wrote:
>
> > As for torture: wasn't Garak's stare supposed to be his most important
> > interrogation tool?
>
>Yes, there was the incident where he supposedly just stared at a guy
>for a couple of hours and got him to break completely. (They hauled
>the fellow off screaming "His eyes! His eyes!") But, while on the
>one hand, that particular detail amuses me greatly (and, having *seen*
>Garak's eyes, I believe it completely and immediately), there is
>something about that that really bothers me. And, yeah, I know this
>is off-topic, but it ties into a current B7 discussion here, so bear
>with me a moment if you would... Because it's that whole thing again
>about downplaying the dark, criminal side of a character.
That bit of it might have been, but just a few scenes later, he tortured
Odo, even though he didn't expect to gain anything by it. And while
opinions may vary about how terrible the torture was, I think the fact that
Odo caved in eventually is by itself enough proof that he was hurting a
lot. It simply was not a form of torture that most people would easily
identify with. Being forced to hold your form comes naturally for us
"solids". But just imagine being tied up in a very uncomfortable position
for so long that it starts to do serious damage to muscles and blood
vessels, and I suppose you come close. On the other hand, we only know that
Shrinker tortured people because we were told so. We never actually saw him
do anything wrong.
Now Garak torturing Odo was made slightly more easily digestible to the
audience by the fact that Garak apparently did it to make sure that someone
who might have really done serious damage to Odo didn't do it, but once he
accepted the job, he didn't hold back. So, Garak was shown to be at least
as ruthless as Shrinker, but we like to find excuses for his behaviour
because he is so incredibly charming (sounds like anyone we know?). On the
other hand, Shrinker is considered evil incarnate even though we only hear
about some of his actions, because for a while we are led to believe that
he killed someone Avon loved. What we are told about his past is no worse
than what we've been told about Garak's past. But Shrinker has all the
charm of a sign post, so every least sign that he might be bad is
multiplied by ten in the minds of the audience.
>Interrogating somebody by just *staring* at them seems harmless and
>funny, and we can be presented with the image of Garak doing this
>without losing any sympathy for his character or feeling particularly
>disturbed or disquieted. But that doesn't change the fact that,
>however likable and charming he is, Garak used to torture people for a
>living. He might not have *enjoyed* it in quite the way Shrinker did
>(I like to think he didn't, and, judging from his book, Andrew Robison
>(Garak) seems to agree with me).
I don't. And considering how much we think of Paul Darrow's opinion of what
Avon was really like, I tend to discount the opinions of actors when it
comes to the deeper motivations of their characters. Mind you, in this case
it was a good thing. Robinson made Garak charming and likeable, and the
writers made him dark and mysterious by putting in conflicting remarks
about his past. Put those together, and you get the Garak I've come to love
(although I'd never *ever* turn my back on him, but the same thing goes for
Avon). I also find it funny that this is the one character where it doesn't
matter if the writer doesn't know his back story. After all, whenever Garak
says something about his past, I simply expect him to contradict at least
three other things he's said before. And even when events are in conflict,
it only makes me believe that there is some underlying and carefully hidden
explanation for the discrepancy. Like Garak told Worf: lying is a skill
like any other, it has to be practiced constantly. And Garak is a very
diligent man when it comes to keeping up his skills :-).
Coming back to the topic of Garak enjoying his former job: I think he did
enjoy it, and only lost his some of his taste for it after several years of
living among people who didn't try to stab him in the back. He even seemed
to be enjoying himself a little while he tortured Odo, with the kind of
horrified enjoyment one can have for doing something one knows is wrong but
which feels good nevertheless. I think that half the time he was trying to
justify it to himself, not by telling himself that he was actually keeping
Odo from being tortured by someone else, but by telling himself that he
didn't owe Odo anything and that his loyalty to Taim demanded that he do this.
>But he was very, very, good at it.
>Anyway, if I was going to have Garak interrogating somebody, I'd feel
>rather compelled not to whitewash it. (Although, come to think of
>it, I'm not at all sure I could convincingly write a torture scene,
>particularly not for Garak. Hmm.)
I think Garak would use the more subtle forms of torture: keep his victim
tied up under a dripping faucet. Or get Vila roaring drunk one evening and
then hold his attention with endless stories about how he tortured others
while Vila is nursing the hangover of a lifetime. That might even get him
Avon's sympathy...
Jacqueline
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 23:23:27 EST
From: "Jessica Taylor" <morgaine54@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila (was Greco-Roman comedy)
Message-ID: <20000702132327.99629.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
>To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
>Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
>Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 07:28:13 -0600
Ellynne wrote:
>So, back to Vila. To me, he'll always be the scared guy who got picked
>on by the schoolyard bullies and will go to any lengths to appease them
>or avoid conflict...
I agree with you, I always thought of Vila as the sort of kid who'd
make fun of himself so that others wouldn't tease him or he'd let the other
kids tease him and try to laugh with them, because he was afraid of getting
hurt (Tarrant on the other hand strikes me as just the kind of kid who'd
pick on the little kids for their lunch money).
Jessica
Jessica
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 11:06:02 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>,
"b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Creations
Message-ID: <00a601bfe42c$2621b360$77c628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk>
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----- Original Message -----
From: Una McCormack <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: b7 <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 4:54 PM
Subject: [B7L] Creations
> of the job he held throughout the production of the show. As script
editor,
> Boucher pretty much had the final word on *all* the scripts that went out.
> This would mean that *every single episode* would be subjected to
Boucher's
> touch.
Which is a very good point.
> Moreover, there are several occasions when scripts were running under and
> Boucher wrote more material (uncredited) to bring the episode up to the
> right time length (is it 'Breakdown' or 'Bounty' - or both - that's the
> classic one here?). I wonder if there any other examples from later
seasons
> when Boucher basically had to rewrite an entire script so that is was
> suitable for the show.
Whih would be an interesting thing to do sometime, too, one of you people
who run zines/webpages etc-- sit Chris Boucher down with one of said script
and work out which bits are whose.
> Terry Nation had limited input on the show during season 3, and none
across
> season 4.
IIRC there's a bit on the newest "Together Again" where somebody asks a
question about Nation's influence in season 3, and Chris Boucher remarks a
bit sharply that N. was more or less out of the picture.
> It's interesting to remember that Bob Holmes was offered the job of script
> editor on B7. I'd argue that the show would have been *completely*
different
> if he'd accepted, rather than suggesting Boucher to Maloney.
D'you think? Remember, Boucher and Holmes (what a lovely pair of names!)
were close colleagues, and Boucher was Holmes' protege. Both of them too do
have a gift for plotting and amusing and vivid characterisation, and have
clever, well-paced plots. Par and Lye are a "Holmsian" double-act if ever I
saw one.
That having been said, I think it would have had much more of a
Gothic/Victorian feel to it. "Gambit" meets "Raffles" might well be right--
though I think that could have been an interesting approach...
> Incidentally, I think 'Survivors' is terrific, is absolutely Nation's
> creation, and that once he was off the show (season 3?), it was crap
(except
> for 'The Last Laugh'). Of course, maybe there was a really good script
> editor there too... <g>
Agreed, and that's one reason I think to defend Nation a bit on B7-- the
party line these days seems to be tending a bit towards the "Nation wanted
to make it a jolly adventure romp and Boucher gave it grit and edge." While
I agree that it was Boucher gave it the edge, I think "Survivors" shows that
a Boucherless B7 needn't have been crap.
Fiona
Fiona Moore
http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html
Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed
------------------------------
Date: Sun Jul 2 15:02:15 BST 2000
From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
Message-Id: <200007021408.PAA01586@smtp.uk2net.com>
> From: Una McCormack <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
> > I notice, also, that no-one has leapt to the defence of Thania's greasy
> > hair.
>
Neil:
> Thania is clearly a woman who views spotty chins and greasy hair in their
> due sense of proportion, and I want her telephone number *now*.
>
Sorry Neil, me and Thania don't give our telephone number out in case Servalan
catches up with us.
Love,
Ika
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Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 10:21:27 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: Freedom City <freedom-city@blakes-7.org>
Subject: [B7L] Midsummer Night's Dream
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0702092127-ab5Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Gareth will be playing Oberon in A Midsummer Night's Dream and a part (not yet
known which) in 'Dear Brutus' a play by JM Barrie. It will be at the Nottingham
Playhouse. Dates are not yet known, but are likely to start near the end of
August and end in October.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Sun Jul 2 15:35:28 BST 2000
From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Richard Adams (was Re: fav episodes)
Message-Id: <200007021441.PAA01782@smtp.uk2net.com>
> From: Una McCormack <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
> > Yeah, I loved 'Watership Down'. And I love the cartoon film as well. I
> > wasn't keen on his other books, tho'.
>
Ariana:
> "Shardik" was quite good, but "Maya" was heavy going. I haven't tried
> anything else by him; "Watership Down" was evidently his masterpiece. Read
> that and you'll certainly never look at rabbits the same ever again.
The other way round for me - I couldn't get past the first chapter of "Shardik"
but I *loved* "Maya" (possibly just because it was a bit rude, though).
Did anyone read "The Girl In a Swing" which is not only my fave of his books
but one of my favourite books in the Whole World? (I'm sure there's a B7
connection there, but for the moment it eludes me).
Love,
Ika
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Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 11:06:47 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: "Judith Proctor" <Judith@blakes-7.com>,
"Lysator List" <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Creations
Message-ID: <00a701bfe42c$271450c0$77c628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk>
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----- Original Message -----
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [B7L] Creations
> The overlap is by no means total, but comparing Box to Orac will give an
instant
> flash of recognition.
>
LOL! It did, it did...
Fiona
Fiona Moore
http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html
Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed
------------------------------
Date: Sun Jul 2 15:55:48 BST 2000
From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Creations
Message-Id: <200007021501.QAA01892@smtp.uk2net.com>
Una:
> > Incidentally, I think 'Survivors' is terrific, is absolutely Nation's
> > creation, and that once he was off the show (season 3?), it was crap
> (except
> > for 'The Last Laugh'). Of course, maybe there was a really good script
> > editor there too... <g>
Nyder/Fiona:
>
> Agreed, and that's one reason I think to defend Nation a bit on B7-- the
> party line these days seems to be tending a bit towards the "Nation wanted
> to make it a jolly adventure romp and Boucher gave it grit and edge." While
> I agree that it was Boucher gave it the edge, I think "Survivors" shows that
> a Boucherless B7 needn't have been crap.
>
Terry Nation wrote "Terminal", didn't he? One of the darkest episodes ever.
(Maybe not gritty per se, but still incredibly hard to watch - probably second
only to 'Blake', which I'm not allowed to watch because it makes me impossible
to live with for days.) I tend to think of TN & CB (and RH) as standing
together against the forces of ... oh, let's see... and just MHO, but Ben Steed
and Tanith Lee.
And I love the few episodes of Survivors I've seen, btw.
Love,
Ika
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