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blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 187
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Re: fav episodes
Re: [B7L] Fave episodes/ class status
Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
[B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #186
Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
[B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing
Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Re: [B7L] Servalan and Jareth (was Fave episodes/ class status/gender)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L] ZENITH IS HERE...
Re: [B7L] Creations
Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
[B7L] Zenith
Re: [B7L] Re: Traves
[B7L] Labyrinth (was Fave episodes/ class status/gender)
Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing
Re: [B7L] Priceline (was Posting fanfic?)
Re: [B7L] Midsummer Night's Dream
[B7L] Re: Other people's mail
Re: [B7L] After the revolution
[B7L] Re: fav episodes
Re: [B7L] Labyrinth (was Fave episodes/ class status/gender)
Re: [B7L] Labyrinth (was Fave episodes/ class status/gender)
Re: [B7L] Creations
Re: [B7L] Creations
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 13:08:15 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>,
"b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: fav episodes
Message-ID: <00aa01bfe42c$29bb54e0$77c628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk>
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----- Original Message -----
From: Una McCormack <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: b7 <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: fav episodes
> Yeah, I loved 'Watership Down'. And I love the cartoon film as well. I
> wasn't keen on his other books, tho'.
Couldn't get into "Shardik," but I thought "Maia" was interesting. If a bit
too long.
Fiona
Fiona Moore
http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html
Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 11:21:19 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>, "Jacqueline Thijsen" <inquisitioner@wish.net>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fave episodes/ class status
Message-ID: <00a801bfe42c$27b301c0$77c628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk>
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----- Original Message -----
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <inquisitioner@wish.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fave episodes/ class status
> At 14:45 29-6-00, Nyder wrote:
> >I think the Daily Mail would call Vila workshy
>
> I think even Vila would call Vila workshy. That doesn't turn him into an
> example of the "working class". He's more like someone who uses "working
> class" status because he thinks that that'll keep him from being held
> responsible for anything.
No, I'd agree, but I still think it's a negative stereotype of the working
class, and the fact that it's presented as acceptable and amusing is a bit
suspicious. Though you may be right that there's something more complex
going on.
Fiona
Fiona Moore
http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html
Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 13:07:06 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>, "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Message-ID: <00a901bfe42c$28859400$77c628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk>
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----- Original Message -----
From: Neil Faulkner <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: b7 <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
> Time to try and catch up on all those posts I would have liked to have
> answered sooner. (Why has the Lyst suddenly exploded of late?)
Has it? What's it normally like then?
> Ellynne:
> >But there's also the long standing
> > tradition of the trickster in folklore or the jester in real life.
> > Shakespeare lived in a rather dangerous time (producing the wrong play
> > could get you sent to the hangman) but still wrote (quoting from memory
> > and probably getting it wrong), "There is no slander in a licensed fool
> > though he do nothing but rail." Jesters and fools were supposed to act
> > as some kind of social safety valve, criticizing ironies in life and in
> > individual conduct but often from within a context of overall social
> > support.
>
> Rather like the slave whispering "Remember you are mortal" in the
general's
> ear. Because that's what he was told to do.
No, I'm with Elynne. Comedians do get away with more because they're
comedians. A playwright I like very much once said "Remember to make the
bastards laugh. That way they won't realise they've learned something."
> Thank you, comrades, for expressing your willingness to question certain
> aspects of the superior ideology's prevailing correctness. I did consider
> issuing you all with a set of winter clothing and packing you all on board
a
> train to Siberia, but then I had a change of heart.
>
> You're not getting any winter clothing*.
The barracks are unheated and the food is rancid potatoes, but the
dinner-table conversation is fabulous.
Fiona
Fiona Moore
http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html
Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 18:27:02 +0100
From: "Pat Sumner" <pat@freedomcity.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #186
Message-ID: <001501bfe44a$bd49b3a0$8e24883e@s5e8f3>
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From: Betty Ragan <bragan@aoc.nrao.edu>
> ... I just got "Warlord"/"Blake" -- thus finally completing my
> video set! -- and I have to watch that first. Don't be surprised if I
> come back here sobbing wretchedly afterwards, though. :))
Come, now Betty, Warlord isn't all that bad! <g>
Pat
------------------------------
Date: 02 Jul 2000 19:38:40 +0200
From: Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Message-ID: <863dlsph3z.fsf@tezcatlipoca.algonet.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>>>> "Nyder" == Nyder <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net> writes:
>> Time to try and catch up on all those posts I would have liked to have
>> answered sooner. (Why has the Lyst suddenly exploded of late?)
> Has it? What's it normally like then?
I think you can fairly say that it has. The June that just ended was,
at 1037 posts, the second most active month ever (only beaten by
February 1998, which had 1114 posts).
--
Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se
"Just about anything can be done if you are demented enough."
-- Christopher C. Petro, scary.devil.monastery
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 12:15:32 -0600 (MDT)
From: Betty Ragan <bragan@aoc.nrao.edu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
Message-Id: <200007021815.MAA02806@zia.aoc.NRAO.EDU>
Neil wrote:
> > [Pauses for thought, counts on fingers, frowns puzzledly.] Three?
> > Somehow I'm only coming up with two...
>
> Still two more than I can come up with.
Well, I did watch it again last night (I just couldn't face "Blake" on
an evening sandwiched between two 10-hour shifts at work), and Sally's
right. It *is* three. You just have to watch carefully. :)
--
Betty Ragan ** bragan@nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan
Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise.
"Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a
tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 12:42:54 -0600 (MDT)
From: Betty Ragan <bragan@aoc.nrao.edu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing
Message-Id: <200007021842.MAA03446@zia.aoc.NRAO.EDU>
Responding to me, Jacqueline wrote:
> >Because it's that whole thing again
> >about downplaying the dark, criminal side of a character.
>
> That bit of it might have been, but just a few scenes later, he tortured
> Odo, even though he didn't expect to gain anything by it.
True. (Well, he didn't except to gain any *information* by it, that
is. He had a great deal to gain *personally* by it...)
> And while
> opinions may vary about how terrible the torture was, I think the fact that
> Odo caved in eventually is by itself enough proof that he was hurting a
> lot. It simply was not a form of torture that most people would easily
> identify with. Being forced to hold your form comes naturally for us
> "solids".
Oh, I think it was a very effective scene, due in large part to a
wonderful acting job by both actors. But it *is* a form of torture
that is hard for us humans to identify with, and -- disturbing as that
scene was -- it would, I think, have been a rather different level of
disturbing if we'd seen Garak pulling someone's toenails out, say (or,
for that matter, threatining to burn their eyes out with a laser
probe). I suppose, if I have a point here, it's just that, the way I
see it, no matter how dark and amoral and anti-heroic a character
(like Avon or Garak) is supposed to be, if they're actually a
*protagonist*, there's a line somewhere that's just not going to be
crossed for fear of making the character too totally unsympathetic.
(Well, at least for TV characters, anyway.) Hmm, I hope that makes
sense...
> So, Garak was shown to be at least
> as ruthless as Shrinker, but we like to find excuses for his behaviour
> because he is so incredibly charming (sounds like anyone we know?). On the
> other hand, Shrinker is considered evil incarnate even though we only hear
> about some of his actions, because for a while we are led to believe that
> he killed someone Avon loved. What we are told about his past is no worse
> than what we've been told about Garak's past. But Shrinker has all the
> charm of a sign post, so every least sign that he might be bad is
> multiplied by ten in the minds of the audience.
This is certainly true, but I think an even greater part of it is that
Shrinker is supposed to be a Bad Guy, where Garak is... well, at least
something along the lines of a good guy. :) The audience is *supposed*
to think of Shrinker as evil, if only so *Avon* doesn't seem as
horrible for what he does to him. (Though personally, it gives me
chills. Not that he kills Shrinker, but the deliberately cruel way in
which he does it.)
> >But that doesn't change the fact that,
> >however likable and charming he is, Garak used to torture people for a
> >living. He might not have *enjoyed* it in quite the way Shrinker did
> >(I like to think he didn't, and, judging from his book, Andrew Robison
> >(Garak) seems to agree with me).
>
> I don't.
Well, bit of a clarification there. I think (no canonical evidence, I
know, but a definite personal impression) that Shrinker probably went
into his particular line of work because he enjoyed hurting people.
And I just don't see Garak as having that kind of a sadistic streak.
He may enjoy the challenge, or the satisfaction of a job well done,
but I don't really see him as enjoying inflicting pain per se.
> And considering how much we think of Paul Darrow's opinion of what
> Avon was really like, I tend to discount the opinions of actors when it
> comes to the deeper motivations of their characters.
Ah, well, after reading the book, I do think Robinson's view of the
character is pretty close to my own. (ATA, on the other hand, is one
of those exceedingly rare books that I actually wish I could un-read.)
> I think Garak would use the more subtle forms of torture: keep his victim
> tied up under a dripping faucet. Or get Vila roaring drunk one evening and
> then hold his attention with endless stories about how he tortured others
> while Vila is nursing the hangover of a lifetime.
I particularly like that last one. :) Although, one idea Robinson
advances in the book (and, again, one I very much agree with) is the
idea that Garak's *preferred* method of gaining information isn't
torture at all. It's getting you to talk to him voluntarily (either
because he's likeable and easy to talk to or because he's so
fascinatingly enigmatic that you want to keep him talking in hopes
that you'll get some information about *him*). And I think that would
be *very* easy with Vila. :)
--
Betty Ragan ** bragan@nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan
Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise.
"Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a
tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 19:52:19 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Message-ID: <027d01bfe456$bb2110d0$0d01a8c0@codex>
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Calle wrote:
> I think you can fairly say that it has. The June that just ended was,
> at 1037 posts, the second most active month ever (only beaten by
> February 1998, which had 1114 posts).
And how many of those had 'Animals' in the subject line?
Una
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 20:20:24 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Message-ID: <005801bfe45b$950123e0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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From: Ellynne G. <rilliara@juno.com>
> Simply put, I realize I don't really get the Cheeky Cockney as such, no
> gut reaction on the stereotype issue.
Possibly because it is a uniquely British stereotype, and one that has
largely disappeared over the past 4-5 decades.
I've been racking my brains over the past few days trying to come up with
some actual examples of the stereotype, and not had much success. The
closest I've come is Will Hay, largely on the basis of one film seen a long
time ago. The likes of Tommy Trinder and Norman Wisdom might also qualify.
Oh, and George Formby, a very definite contender. All had their heyday (or
Hay day) long before I was born.
Maybe we can tie this in with the Creations thread, and guess at where B7,
as originally devised by Terry Nation, might have come from. 'Robin Hood in
Space' points to what might be a unique hybridisation of (a) the Victorian
adventurer 'Boys Own' tradition - a largely British tradition, though there
are American examples (eg Edgar Rice Burrough's heroes) and (b) pulp science
fiction, which in turn draws heavily on the Western - both American
traditions. Not that this should come as any great surprise, coming from a
man who spent his childhood reading American comics and pulp magazines in
the air raid shelter.
Though I think it would also be a mistake (and a grave injustice) to suggest
that Nation was stuck in a wartime rut. By the time he came to create B7,
the world had moved on, become a much more complex and ambiguous place.
Which is why I think B7, even before Boucher started writing scripts
himself, had a darker undertone. Obviously, we can't ask Nation now, but I
suspect he may have been torn between Robin Hood and the Dirty Dozen,
perhaps representing his professional and artistic instincts respectively.
There's a sense of restraint in the 1st Season, something like a pulled
punch. Dark realism and bright fantasy rather uncomfortably juxtaposed. As
if Nation wanted to knock the viewers' teeth in but was scared of hurting
them.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Sun Jul 2 22:13:07 BST 2000
From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan and Jareth (was Fave episodes/ class status/gender)
Message-Id: <200007022118.WAA04251@smtp.uk2net.com>
me:
> > constant (let's leave Harvest and Sand out of it for a moment)
> > refusal to lapse into any kind of traditional 'feminine' behaviour.
> > She's not your typical femme fatale at all - I've never seen a
> > female character like her. (Actually, she reminds me a bit of Jareth
> > out of Labyrinth, which is great because I thought
> > you had to be a bloke to be that cool).
Kathryn:
>
> What, she reminds you of Jareth from Labyrinth because she's cool, or
> because he defies gender roles?
I hadn't really thought about that... A bit of both, I think. Jareth is cool in
a way that I thought was confined to male characters - although that does
involve a bit of gender confusion (cf "effeminate"-type Bond villains.) His
"femininity" is sinister, and so is Servalan's, I think, in a way which is
usually for effete male villains rather than femme fatale types.
Hmmm. I'm going to think about this for a bit.
Love,
Ika
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 14:34:59 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <20000702213500.13826.qmail@hotmail.com>
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Fiona/me:
<We do see lots of people who are perfectly happy under the Federation,
and to whom Blake etc. do more damage than the Federation ever did; by
contrast we also see a lot of horror.>
<Actually, could you tell me where we *do* see the former?>
Fiona then gave a list of examples, though <grin> I wouldn't exactly call
many of these *perfectly* happy, but then neither are Our Heroes ...
Yes, I accepted the scientists on Fosferon as at least passively
non-unhappy. IMHO Carnell and the soldiers come under my heading of
functionaries of the power structure (and willing instruments of
oppression), and, since Marryatt seems to be in the employ of Servalan, I'd
put him there as well (the crew of the London ... doubtful, but I'll let
pass on the grounds that they seem to be a privately-owned prison ship
rather than nationalised. Ditto Tynus seems to be private security). Kayn is
not a citizen of nor under the rule of tthe Federation - he may admire the
dictatorship, but you will notice he carefully does it from the safety of a
neutral station.
I'd accept that some of these (and presumably a relative handful of others
we don't see) are - as I said - passively non-unhappy, and enough so to
accept Federation rule as something that can be lived with (as long as one
shuts one's eyes firmly to what is happening to others :-)). If there's no
hope of change, they do make the best of it - and one thing it seems the
Federation actively works at (from Servalan's line in SLD, one of my
favourite in the series) is the crushing of hope. The only ones, however,
who seem to actually think the status quo is A Good Thing (as apart from to
be something to put up with) are the apparatniks, the soldiers ... and the
outsider.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 21:28:36 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>,
"Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] ZENITH IS HERE...
Message-ID: <01dd01bfe468$697573e0$77c628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk>
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----- Original Message -----
From: Una McCormack <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [B7L] ZENITH IS HERE...
> I loved your idea for film revivals: the picture of Darrow in Trek costume
> was just this side of disturbing... <g>
In fairness, that was Andy's stroke of genius not my own-- but thanks for
the praise :).
Fiona
Fiona Moore
http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html
Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 21:21:08 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: "Iain Coleman" <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk>,
"Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
Cc: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Creations
Message-ID: <01db01bfe468$67a8a320$77c628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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----- Original Message -----
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: Una McCormack <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
Cc: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [B7L] Creations
> A chip supper? Jesus. This may be a linguistic issue, but where I come
> from 'an X supper' means 'X with chips', as in fish supper, haggis supper,
> deep-fried mars bar supper, etc. A chip supper sounds like serious
> dedication to the cause of coronary disease.
Actually there's a cafe near where I used to live in Oxford that served
"chips" as a main dish in and of itself. It was usually referred to as
"chips with yer chips, luv?" by regular patrons.
Fiona
Fiona Moore
http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html
Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 21:25:08 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>, <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Message-ID: <01dc01bfe468$689b4080$77c628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk>
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----- Original Message -----
From: Alison Page <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
> Ellyne said -
> that the 'luvable cheery poor person' stereotype doesn't exist in US films
> and TV shows.
>
> The key points are
>
> - not well off, and in a low status role in society
> - noticeably lower class in accent, appearance, clothing (often
overweight)
> - not keen to 'better' themselves ('too much like hard work')
> - a key pointer is that this person is more *sensual* that the higher
social
> status person. He/she drinks or eats more, or is more sexual, or likes to
> sit around watching TV. He/she lacks refined tastes, and isn't good on
> deferred gratification or exercise
Two words: Homer Simpson.
Fiona
Fiona Moore
http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html
Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 21:38:28 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: <mistral@ptinet.net>, "B7 List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <01df01bfe468$6b391ce0$77c628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk>
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----- Original Message -----
From: <mistral@ptinet.net>
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
>
>
> Sally wrote:
> > I could be wrong, but my impression is that very few people *were* happy
> > under the Federation, except those who were part of the power structure
> > itself; the majority were either unhappy but passive in the fact of
their
> > own helplessness, or not in a state to have an opinion at all (e g
drugged.)
>
> Part of the problem in discussing this is how do you define 'happy'?
> I'm not sure I know anybody IRL who isn't unhappy with some
> aspect of the government they live under.
Good point. Perhaps I shouldn't have said "perfectly happy"; what I meant
was people who were leading more or less decent, normal lives under the
Federation, not being imprisoned, deprived, brainwiped, sold into slavery
etc.
Fiona
Fiona Moore
http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html
Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 16:09:54 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>, <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <01da01bfe468$66df38a0$77c628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk>
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----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Ellis <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 10:38 PM
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
<Interesting, spot-on and uncomfortably close-to-home class analysis
snipped>
> Make people believe that they have worked for what they have got. Now you
> can have a society where most people are content with their lot, even
though
> a very few people actually have nearly everything. They worry about losing
> what they have got, and are so interested in the status quo.
To tie this thread into the class-war thread going on elsewhere: this post
reminds me that we actually don't *see* many people who would be below, say,
a beta-grade. Blake and Co's associates, contacts and nemeses are
politicians, army officers, surgeons, scientists, royalty... some of the
soldiers could be delta-grade (e.g. in RoD or Moloch), and ditto the bar
staff in "Gambit," but for the most part, not only are our heroes middle
class, but so are most of the people with whom they interact.
Are the lower classes happy with their lot? More easily duped? Or just not
posh enough?
Still playing the devil's advocate,
Fiona
Fiona Moore
http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html
Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 21:36:50 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>, "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
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----- Original Message -----
From: Sally Manton <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 2:35 AM
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
> Fiona wrote:
> <We do see lots of people who are perfectly happy under the Federation,
and
> to whom Blake etc. do more damage than the Federation ever did; by
contrast
> we also see a lot of horror.>
>
> Actually, could you tell me where we *do* see the former?
Along with the examples already cited by Una and Misty, I'd cite the
scientists in "Killer"; Dr Bellfriar, while he seems to be at least mildly
critical of the Federation, certainly isn't suffering desperately under it.
Likewise Tynus doesn't seem too unhappy. Carnell is presumably also a member
of the Federation (and I don't count him as top brass; he's a hired gun);
the two soldiers at the beginning of "Aftermath" and of course Par and Lye;
Kayn of "Breakdown"; Muller and the missus in "Headhunter"; the crew of the
London (not exactly happy, but again, not suffering through any agency of
the Federation in and of itself); Maryatt and family were presumably happy
up until things went horribly wrong with the Orac caper.
Oh, and to Una's example of the dreamheads who died when Blake blew up their
Shadow supply, I'd add the inhabitants of a number of planets whose weather
system was controlled by Star One.
Fiona
Fiona Moore
http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html
Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 21:53:44 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>,
"Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
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----- Original Message -----
From: Una McCormack <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
>But I do think that one can reasonably describe societies
> as structurally 'evil' or structurally 'good' (and this is even coming
from
> Ms Hyper-Relativist, and containing all the usual caveats on
> value-judgements!). But this doesn't preclude good societies from doing
bad
> things and bad societies doing good things.
I'll have to semi-agree to disagree. I can't see any *type* of society as
inherently good or evil; there's nothing fundamentally good about democracy,
IMO, and there's nothing fundamentally evil about a tyranny, it just depends
what you do with it.
> Hereby forgoing victory in this argument, I invoke Nazi Germany, which I
> think one could reasonably suggest was a structurally evil regime,
Which is why I went for Italy-- more ambiguous. But, purely for the sake of
argument, I'll contend that it might have made something of itself if its
leader hadn't been stark raving mad. Even Nazi Germany produced Leni
Riefenstahl and Albert Speer, and ended the howling chaos that was Weimar
(the way it did it is unforgivable, as I'd be the first to say-- but wasn't
Imperial Rome also aimed at world domination and built on slave labour?).
> There are also societies which are structurally flawed and end up on the
> road to self-destruction: Harriet supplied an interesting example
elsewhere,
> in which she described how the Spartan ruling class eventually endangered
Don't know anything about Sparta, so I'll pass.
> of protecting humanity, and that's why we see the rebellions emerging. The
> irony is that the rebellion has to be as vicious as the regime its trying
to
> replace. Even in its opposition, the Federation creates brutality.
Agreed, that any regime where the only form of resistance is an illegal one
is flawed. But I'd still maintain that that's got less to do with the
Federation's structure and more to do with the way it's run.
Playing devil's advocate again,
Fiona
Fiona Moore
http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html
Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 00:07:12 +0100
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Zenith
Message-ID: <395FCB1F.FDE28B7E@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
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I got my copy of Zenith at the Gareth Thomas signing in Barking on
Saturday. It looks really good and what I've read so far suggests the
content matches. This is a must buy for B7 fans, a good, glossy B7
magazine. Nice one Andy. I'd like to join those calling for an issue 2.
--
cheers
Steve Rogerson
http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson
Redemption: The Blake's 7 and Babylon 5 convention
23-25 February 2001, Ashford, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:30:28 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Traves
Message-ID: <20000702233028.80116.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: Jacqueline Thijsen <inquisitioner@wish.net>
>And what, exactly, is so funny about using a pogo stick to move around?
><holding teletubbies tapes ready to deal firmly with the first one who
>sniggers>
<straight face, but not for long> Hehehe...
Sorry, Jacqueline, but I need a laugh at the moment...
Regards
Joanne
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Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:38:50 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Labyrinth (was Fave episodes/ class status/gender)
Message-ID: <20000702233850.44944.qmail@hotmail.com>
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>From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
>What, she reminds you of Jareth from Labyrinth because she's cool, or
>because he defies gender roles?
Thankyou to the pair of you, because I'm now trying to get rid of the idea
of Servalan reeling off the "You remind me of the babe" bit of the movie,
with assorted troops and toyboys standing in for the goblins!
Regards
Joanne
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Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 15:27:40 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0702142740-572Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Sun 02 Jul, Jacqueline Thijsen wrote:
>
> Coming back to the topic of Garak enjoying his former job: I think he did
> enjoy it, and only lost his some of his taste for it after several years of
> living among people who didn't try to stab him in the back. He even seemed
> to be enjoying himself a little while he tortured Odo, with the kind of
> horrified enjoyment one can have for doing something one knows is wrong but
> which feels good nevertheless. I think that half the time he was trying to
> justify it to himself, not by telling himself that he was actually keeping
> Odo from being tortured by someone else, but by telling himself that he
> didn't owe Odo anything and that his loyalty to Taim demanded that he do this.
There is an absolutely wonderful SF novel by Susan Matthews (I'm blanking on the
title, but I'm sure Julia will tell me) where the hero is training to be a
surgeon (and is a very good one indeed) when he is drafted into the ranks of the
torturers. To his absolute horror, he finds that he enjoys his new work. The
book is a fascinating study of a man caught in an ethical nightmare.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:48:50 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Priceline (was Posting fanfic?)
Message-ID: <20000702234850.82962.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: Pherber@aol.com
>An entirely understandable reaction! On the other hand, it could hardly be
>much *worse* than the original. <gag>
Haha! You've reminded of an article in July's issue of SFX, entitled "It's
only Spock'n'Roll", which contains the sentence:
"S Club 7 would not be popular pre-teen pin-ups if they line-danced their
way around the universe in a spaceship called the Liberator."
<shuddering at the combination>
Regards
Joanne
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 09:54:24 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Midsummer Night's Dream
Message-ID: <20000702235424.35437.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
>Gareth will be playing Oberon in A Midsummer Night's Dream
This is better: Gareth, as Oberon, exclaiming "Tarry, rash wanton", and the
like. Much, much better than the image of Servalan imitating Jareth...
Regards
Joanne
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Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 20:53:59 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Other people's mail
Message-ID: <200007022054_MC2-AADB-78DD@compuserve.com>
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Ellynne wrote:
>I know the same thing happened as a kid in school
>when they asked us which of a bunch of historical
>characters we identified with and I couldn't come up
>with an answer - admired and would like (in some areas)
> to be more like, yes, I could say that. But _identify_ with?
> That seemed to be saying a bit much. I went through the
>quick list of everyone I could think of since the dawn of
>time and couldn't find one.
Nobody ever asked me, but I wanted to be Hephaistion, son of Amyntor.
Though that might not be the same thing as identifying.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 20:53:50 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] After the revolution
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Una unexpectedly quoted me from another place:
>Harriet supplied an interesting example elsewhere,
>in which she described how the Spartan ruling class
>eventually endangered its own existence by the rigid
>application of laws which tended to reduce the
>numbers of people who qualified to belong to it.
I was vaguely hoping that someone who remembered the Lycurgan constitution
better than I did might jump up and explain precisely what it was...
But (as I have undoubtedly said before) I think the Federation is more like
the Athenian Empire. This starts out as the defensive alliance of Athens
and other Greek city states/and islands against Persia, and is originally
known as the Delian League. Gradually, the headquarters, treasury etc are
shifted from Delos ("just to be more secure from raids") to Athens, which
then begins to regard the league's resources as its personal property.
Contributions to the alliance's funds become tribute to Athens, liable to
be used on the construction of Athenian temples. Allies attempting to
leave the league are suppressed, sometimes with great brutality.
Similarly, as Una says, the Federation is likely to have originated in the
crisis of the Atmoic War, though I don't think it was necessarily
militaristic from the first; it may have been a co-operative alliance
between Earth and the colonies (suppose the outer worlds have been cut off
from off-planet supplies, and are very anxious to see some sort of
organisation to supervise the reconstruction of trade etc). Since then,
figures in the Earth government have used that as a powerbase to seize
control of said colonies. But propaganda would naturally continue to
present the Federation as still pursuing its original, beneficent aims.
Re Blake's failure to set out a political programme, I think Bran Foster's
remarks indicate the Freedom's Party's general thinking (unless they'd had
a dramatic change of heart). He lays great stress on autonomy for the
Outer Worlds, and the campaign appears to be focussed on tying up the
Federation at home so that those Outer Worlds can achieve independence.
Possibly they hope that the independent planets may in turn put pressure on
the Federation at home, but freeing Earth citizens doesn't seem to be the
chief priority. Avon, in Pressure Point, has a slightly different
emphasis, and talks about resistance movements on Earth bringing down the
Federation, but he too mentions the Outer Worlds revolt first. My
assumption has always been that Blake's aim is autonomy and
self-determination - the freedom to make one's own mistakes. It will
probably result in some democracies and some tyrannies, but (he hopes)
there's a greater chance of freedom for significant numbers than if the
Federation maintains its control over everybody.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 20:54:58 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: fav episodes
Message-ID: <200007022055_MC2-AADB-78E6@compuserve.com>
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Una replied to me:
>> So what's your favourite Narnian episode? Mine is The Silver Chair.
>
>Me too, Harriet. Especially after seeing Tom Baker as
>Puddleglum (the only redeeming feature in those whole
>ghastly BBC productions). 'The Magician's Nephew'
>would probably come a close second.
That's odd, because Puddleglum is definitely one of the main reasons why I
like the book, but I thought Tom Baker was completely miscast. I'm not
sure who I would cast, though I did once see an actor, name of Clive
Russell, in Our Country's Good, who had the perfect build.
Not sure what my second would be... Other favourite characters include
Trumpkin (the DLF) in Prince Caspian, and Lazaraleen in The Horse and His
Boy.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 17:25:52 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Labyrinth (was Fave episodes/ class status/gender)
Message-ID: <395FDD8F.2A0267F3@ptinet.net>
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Joanne wrote:
> >From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
> >What, she reminds you of Jareth from Labyrinth because she's cool, or
> >because he defies gender roles?
>
> Thankyou to the pair of you, because I'm now trying to get rid of the idea
> of Servalan reeling off the "You remind me of the babe" bit of the movie,
> with assorted troops and toyboys standing in for the goblins!
Does it help any if I volunteer that I don't see any resemblance
between the two (perish the thought--I'm very fond of Jareth),
but I've always seen a distinct similarity between Jareth and Avon?
Mistral
--
"Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!"
--Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 12:36:13 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Labyrinth (was Fave episodes/ class status/gender)
Message-ID: <20000703023613.37091.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: mistral@ptinet.net
>Does it help any if I volunteer that I don't see any resemblance
>between the two (perish the thought--I'm very fond of Jareth),
>but I've always seen a distinct similarity between Jareth and Avon?
Er <thinks for a second>, no, the only (vague) similarity I can think of
off-hand, involving trousers shall we say, is best discussed on the Other
List, and I was there only briefly some time back (something didn't like me
being there, I know not what...)
Regards
Joanne
(showing signs of infection from the Juliajones bug in her operating system)
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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:21:08 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Creations
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Me/Fiona:
> > It's interesting to remember that Bob Holmes was offered the job of
script
> > editor on B7. I'd argue that the show would have been *completely*
different
> > if he'd accepted, rather than suggesting Boucher to Maloney.
>
> D'you think? Remember, Boucher and Holmes (what a lovely pair of names!)
> were close colleagues, and Boucher was Holmes' protege. Both of them too
do
> have a gift for plotting and amusing and vivid characterisation, and have
> clever, well-paced plots. Par and Lye are a "Holmsian" double-act if ever
I
> saw one.
Yes, as as Bercol and Rontane, Forress and Grenlee; and I'm sure I could
think of many more if I'd had my first cup of coffee of the day yet.
Yes, there are obvious similarities between Boucher and Holmes (yes, you're
right - they are good names together!), but I think there are stylistic
differences. Just think how different those colonials are in 'Traitor' from
Forress and Grenlee (and excuse me while I stop and think about Christopher
Neame for a moment <happy sigh>... We're in 'Rewatching Colditz' mode at the
moment...).
> That having been said, I think it would have had much more of a
> Gothic/Victorian feel to it.
Definitely.
> > Incidentally, I think 'Survivors' is terrific, is absolutely Nation's
> > creation, and that once he was off the show (season 3?), it was crap
(except
> > for 'The Last Laugh'). Of course, maybe there was a really good script
> > editor there too... <g>
>
> Agreed, and that's one reason I think to defend Nation a bit on B7-- the
> party line these days seems to be tending a bit towards the "Nation wanted
> to make it a jolly adventure romp and Boucher gave it grit and edge."
While
> I agree that it was Boucher gave it the edge, I think "Survivors" shows
that
> a Boucherless B7 needn't have been crap.
Oh no - but it wouldn't have been the same B7 by any stretch of the
imagination.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 03:25:43 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Creations
Message-ID: <20000703102543.7568.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Una wrote:
<It's interesting to remember that Bob Holmes was offered the job of script
editor on B7. I'd argue that the show would have been *completely* different
if he'd accepted, rather than suggesting Boucher to Maloney.>
Well for one thing Blake and Avon would probably have been sent to separate
parts of the *galaxy* in episode three and *kept* there. Holmes could write
both of them very well, and they both have beautiful interaction with other
characters, but he seemed to *hate* the relationship and kept them firmly
apart. His Avon-Vila stuff is very very good, of course.
And for another thing, the wimp-the-women tendency would have become a full
flood. In both Killer and Gambit, Jenna and Cally are at their weakest
(Jenna's bimbette turn in Killer is glaring).
OTOH, his guest characters are some of the best ... and just maybe we'd have
gotten a few more episodes with Jarriere!!!!!!
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