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blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 189
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) - totally tangential to anything.
[B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
[B7L] Which IRL society most resembles the Federation
[B7L] Ornithological nightmares (was Re: Women we like)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
Re: [B7L] Ornithological nightmares (was Re: Women we like)
Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188
Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188
Re: [B7L] Susan Matthews novels
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
[B7L] B7/DS9 crossover
Re: [B7L] Moondisks (was: Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188)
(Fwd) Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188
Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing
Re: [B7L] Labyrinth (was Fave episodes/ class status/gender)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution
Re: [B7L]After the revolution
Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing
[B7L] APE
Re: [B7L] After the revolution
[B7L] Cheeky Cockneys - not [was Re: Greco-Roman comedy]
[B7L]After the revolution
Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 21:46:07 +0100
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing
Message-ID: <022201bfe536$3cd12f40$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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Ellyne said -
>It suddenly occured to me that Garak has a great deal in common with
>Vila.
I'm not a DS9 expert (I don't really know his back story) but whenever I see
Garak I think 'Vila'. But then I have kind of idiosyncratic view of Vila
anyway, where the deceit goes very deep, and there's a lot more violence.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 14:32:52 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <20000703213252.9329.qmail@hotmail.com>
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Ika wrote:
<So Blake, for me, is trying to obtain freedom and self-government for all
colonized planets in the first instance - what he would do on Earth if he
won and the Federation ceased ruling there is another question,>
It's totally without canonical or any other evidence, but I'm convinced that
Blake did not expect to survive the Federation's downfall.
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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 22:15:53 +0100
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <008801bfe6c9$6cb0bc00$1f9701d5@leanet>
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>I'm *loving* this thread, and haven't said anything so far because everyone
>else is so much more interesting on it than I could be. But that never
stops me
>for long... Still, I'm not going to respond at length, because I can't. So,
>huge snips ahoy!
>
I'm so pleased for you.
Since everybody is invoking IRL examples. Was what Blake wanted a kind of
splitting up of planetary systems with a turbulent past, lots of
intermingling and different ideals ? A bit like the Balkans then. Might be a
good idea (I express no opinion), I just hope Blake puts the right people in
the right places to keep the whole thing stable.
Gnog.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 22:23:55 +0100
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) - totally tangential to anything.
Message-ID: <008a01bfe6c9$6eeb69c0$1f9701d5@leanet>
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>>
>> Which is why I went for Italy--<snip>
>The purpose of life :)
>
Could be !
Gnog
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 00:25:14 +0100
From: "Pat Sumner" <pat@freedomcity.fsnet.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188
Message-ID: <003801bfe545$f2e596e0$bd34883e@s5e8f3>
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From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
>Oh, and to Una's example of the dreamheads who died when Blake blew up
their
>Shadow supply, I'd add the inhabitants of a number of planets whose weather
>system was controlled by Star One.
I realise that I should be quoting Una's example myself, but I can't find it
anywhere(!)
I believe that Una was saying something along the lines of Blake not caring
what results his actions produced, resulting in the deaths of all the
dreamheads, hopelessly addicted to Shadow.
Surely all those dreamheads were addicted to a substance which was going to
kill them soon in any case?
Take the case of Peety, brother of Hanna and Bek,
HANNA: '...wasn't due another dose for twelve hours, but he just... just
died.'
BEK: 'Just died? That's what Shadow does, it kills you!'
And elsewhen in the episode, Largo speaking of the added ingredient to his
Shadow, states that it 'just kills them a little sooner.'
So the dreamheads would have died regardless of Blake's actions. He just
prevented many more potential addicts from dying (at least from Shadow
addiction).
The example should maybe have been Blake's genocidal act, killing an entire
intelligent species (apart from the one in Cally's room). We know they're
intelligent because previously in the episode they've been communicating
with and helping Cally.
Hardly the moral stance Blake took in 'The Web.'
Does anyone know (obvoiusly not in any great detail) how Shadow was
administered? All I want to know is, was it injected, swallowed, smoked or
maybe absorbed through the skin?
Also, how much was one dose? One of those orange spheres?
By the way, there's nothing insidious about my need for this knowledge. I'm
writing a roleplaying adventure (featuring all-new characters). So if anyone
from the roleplaying group is on this list, you never read this.
Pat
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 22:20:30 +0100
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <008901bfe6c9$6e099540$1f9701d5@leanet>
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>Nyder said:
>
>> Are the lower classes happy with their lot? More easily duped? Or just
not
>> posh enough?
>
And Dana replied.
>If you're not the lead sled dog, the scenery never changes. The Lower
>Grades
>may feel that they have very little stake in what the Alphas are doing,
>because
>whatever happens, they're still going to be working in factories and
>cleaning
>houses.
>-(Y)
>
As you say, the "Lower Grades" have nothing material to gain by change. And
it always seems to be the Lower Grades who suffer during change (quite often
by being killed), so the status quo sounds pretty good, even if those snobby
Alpha's are grabbing all the credits for themselves. AND, if I clean this
house really well, I might get to clean a house Outside the Dome.
Gnog
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 22:32:25 +0100
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Which IRL society most resembles the Federation
Message-ID: <008b01bfe6c9$6fabac80$1f9701d5@leanet>
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>> ......Terran Federation and the
>> Roman and British Empires:
>>
>Sigh. ........ Catholicism in Ireland as one example.
>
>> The Federation, .....reminds me more of the Soviet Union
>> under Stalin.
etc etc.
OR...
The Federation has some history books, and tried to take the most effective
lessons from all sorts of regimes. So it behaves like Stalin towards
religion (which gives people two leaders, and so spreads the power). It
fakes some form of cultural tolerance like the Romans (to gain the trust of
the people, and so indoctrinate local leaders in Federation schools). It
operates its military system like Fascists, with compulsory Cadetship. It
takes a huge pride in free market economies like the west in the late 20th
century. It covertly supports organised crime like (.......). It formed like
the Athenians, because it did. And because power corrupts, it is corrupt.
etc etc.
Gnog
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 11:14:09 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Ornithological nightmares (was Re: Women we like)
Message-ID: <20000704011409.26035.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
>So you don't actually know that you are an unwitting pawn in their grand
>conspiracy? There might yet be some slender filament of hope for you.
>Of course, as an unwitting pawn you could hardly be expected to know, could
>you? Just keep your wits about you in future, and be extra cautious of
>anything that shuffles.
There's me done for - thanks to you two, there are penguins everywhere. The
last straw was yesterday evening. After work, I saw a large, inflatable
version sitting at the door of the Australian Geographic shop in the
shopping centre next to where I work. Straight after that, on the bus, I saw
a headline in one of the newspapers: Penguins evacuated.*
It's all too much!
Regards
Joanne
(presently listening to I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue Vol. 1, and still at a
loss about Mornington Crescent)
*For Neil's benefit: South African penguins, I think - the report came from
Johannesburg.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 13:14:26 EST
From: "Jessica Taylor" <morgaine54@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <20000704031426.36489.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
>To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
>Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
>Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:16:14 +0100
> > I'll contend that it might have made something of itself if its
> > leader hadn't been stark raving mad.
>
>Can an individual have a noticeable impact on history? In Hitler's case one
>would instantly say, 'yes', but the interesting thing about the example is
>the extent to which the bulk of that society happily threw itself behind a
>leader who was stark raving mad.
Not too surprising really. Hitler was presented brilliantly by the likes of
Riefenstahl and Goebbels as a loving father to his people, he was presented
as generous, a lover of children and the family, so people trusted him. What
Hitler did was take advantage of the anger and uncertainty among the
population caused mainly by poverty and project it where he wanted, this
gave them something to follow and believe in. In convincing the people that
the reason they were poor and hungry was because wealthy Jews had stabbed
them in the back and because of crippling reperations forced by Britain and
France he found scapegoats and created common enemies to unite the
population.
Basically he found a way to boost morale by giving the people a hero, they
didn't see him as stark-raving mad.
> > Even Nazi Germany produced Leni
> > Riefenstahl and Albert Speer,
>
>Both of whom I'd use as contrary examples <g>: people whose talents and
>intellects were corrupted by the political system in which they operated.
Yeah, good point. The Nazis were also one of the first nations to begin
anti-smoking campaigns, they promoted the need for healthy young Aryans, the
perfect German was good at sport and running so a campaign against smoking
was run to encourage the population to stay healthy. Same thing again. Good
ideas, scary reasoning.
> > and ended the howling chaos that was Weimar
>The classic example of how shit democracy can be!
>Una
To be fair, in the last year, before Hitler came to power one of the leaders
whose name escapes me did try to set up what he called a five year economic
plan to sort out Germanys economy, probably would've worked out too if he
hadn't died.
Jessica
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 23:23:02 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Message-ID: <00aa01bfe56a$28119c00$89614e0c@dshilling>
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Mistral said:
>
> Are you sure you don't mean 'validated as an Animal'?
I'm working on a "Una as android" theory myself.
-(Y)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 23:44:08 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
Message-ID: <00ad01bfe56a$36cc0e60$89614e0c@dshilling>
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Sally said:
> > Avon OTOH has strong (if erratic) protective instincts, but of the
three
> > crew members who inspire them most strongly, two of them are Fearless
> Leader
> > (for the most part as fragile as a battering ram) >
and Morrigan replied:
> Not at all irrational. Neither Fearless Leader or Dayna are physically
weak
> but both have a tendency to be impulsive, acting before thinking (if they
> ever get round to that) and therefore need someone to come along and
rescue
> them, sweep up the pieces or protect them from their own irrationality.
> Perfectly logical. <g>
Actually this is on the brink of the OtherList, but I can imagine a B7
version of "Candida" with Avon giving himself to the Weaker of the Two
and poor Vila slinking poetically into the night... Blake does have that
Rev. Morell quality of having his invulnerability sustained by a large
support system.
-(Y)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 06:30:27 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ornithological nightmares (was Re: Women we like)
Message-ID: <020001bfe579$7b495430$0d01a8c0@codex>
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Joanne wrote:
> There's me done for - thanks to you two, there are penguins everywhere.
Hey - don't blame me! It's Neil with the psychosis!
> Joanne
> (presently listening to I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue Vol. 1, and still at a
> loss about Mornington Crescent)
Still funny tho', isn't it?
Una
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 06:32:44 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188
Message-ID: <020101bfe579$7b9a5a60$0d01a8c0@codex>
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Pat wrote:
> From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
>
> >Oh, and to Una's example of the dreamheads who died when Blake blew up
their
> >Shadow supply, I'd add the inhabitants of a number of planets whose
weather
> >system was controlled by Star One.
>
> I realise that I should be quoting Una's example myself, but I can't find
it
> anywhere(!)
I don't actually remember giving this example, but I just assumed my memory
was faulty. Maybe I didn't after all.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 06:27:03 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Message-ID: <01ff01bfe579$7aed9fa0$0d01a8c0@codex>
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Dana:
> Mistral said:
> >
> > Are you sure you don't mean 'validated as an Animal'?
> I'm working on a "Una as android" theory myself.
Unkind to androids.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:31:39 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <20000703.233407.-97551.0.rilliara@juno.com>
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On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 22:20:30 +0100 "Andrew Ellis"
<Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com> writes:
> As you say, the "Lower Grades" have nothing material to gain by
> change. And
> it always seems to be the Lower Grades who suffer during change
> (quite often
> by being killed), so the status quo sounds pretty good, even if
> those snobby
> Alpha's are grabbing all the credits for themselves. AND, if I clean
> this
> house really well, I might get to clean a house Outside the Dome.
>
Like poor farmer in some parts of Latin America. They'll pick a low
value food crop (with a low failure rate) over a high risk cash crop.
Having a marginal existance where survival is a constant concern, they'll
take assured poverty over iffy improvement.
Seems to me there was a peasant revolt or two in the Middle Ages where
the peasants went after reformers out to improve their lot because they
saw it as threatening their lives.
I know that was the cause of riots when they changed calendars, people
afraid they would lose the wages for the 'vanished' days.
Ellynne
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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:37:11 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188
Message-ID: <20000703.233407.-97551.1.rilliara@juno.com>
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On Tue, 4 Jul 2000 00:25:14 +0100 "Pat Sumner"
<pat@freedomcity.fsnet.co.uk> writes:
> From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
>
> The example should maybe have been Blake's genocidal act, killing an
> entire
> intelligent species (apart from the one in Cally's room). We know
> they're
> intelligent because previously in the episode they've been
> communicating
> with and helping Cally.
Because of the complete lack of debate, including from Cally, I wonder if
they didn't have some kind of communal intelligence. Since Blake was
only destroying part of the Shadow crop, he was damaging the organism but
not killing it. It would explain why the plants hung around even though
the Federation harvested them.
OTOH, if it was intelligent and mobile, why didn't Cally just tell them
how it was bieng used for mass murder, etc?
And did she save any cuttings from a certain planet with intelligent and
carnivorous plants?
What kind of greenhouse does the woman have?
Ellynne
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Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 06:41:53 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Susan Matthews novels
Message-ID: <021501bfe57a$9191b740$0d01a8c0@codex>
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Sondra wrote:
> Judith mentioned "a wonderful SF novel by Susan Matthews" where
> the hero is a surgeon who becomes a torturer and discovers that he
> enjoys his work.
Sondra, is this the same person who wrote 'Mind of a Man' etc?
Una
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:40:14 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0703174014-c72Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Mon 03 Jul, Christine+Steve wrote:
> > Kathryn wrote:
> > <Well, to pick a nit, that was caused by the Andromedans. IMHO, I don't
> > think just destroying Star One would have caused as much chaos as what
> > actually happened - I think the Andromedans were deliberately making the
> > systems go nutzy.>
>
> Then Sally Manton added :
> >
> > I'll share that nitpick :-) What we see in the early scenes of Star One
> > seems to be the results of climate control *out* of control, rather than a
> > reversion to whatever was natural for each planet. It is probable that
> there
> > would have been *some* serious problems (and probably deaths) from the
> > latter, but nothing like what Durkin was displaying.
>
> I guess it depends how inhospitable the planets were before the climate
> control systems were switched on. How much did the climate systems control?
> Whether it changed an existing "livable" environment, or whether it was able
> to generate a new atmosphere over a previously poisonous one.
given how difficult climate control is in reality - anyone out there know an
easy way of halting global warming? - I'd suspect that planets can't be taken
far from their original climatic regime. Some control over where rain falls
would not be too difficult (provided that clouds actually pass over the region
in question), but large scale adjustments would need incredible amounts of
energy.
Massive solar mirrors to warm worlds too far from the sun might be possible, but
a stable climate might not result for centuries.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:34:33 +0000
From: Murray <mjsmith@tcd.ie>
To: Lysator <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] B7/DS9 crossover
Message-Id: <l03110701b5875ffba302@[134.226.96.44]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Una,
>> An excellent B7/DS9 crossover story already exists in print: 'Seas of God'
>> by Sharon Eckman, published by Diane Gies in the zine 'The Web 3', which I
>> very strongly recommend, as it also has superb illustrations.
>
>Does it have Garak?
Indeed it does. Here is a sample from page 18:
"Vila. What a nice surprise."
Servalan had rarely sounded so insincere. Quark looked up and
licked his lips. "Beautiful woman. Beautiful dress."
"One of my first," said Garak from behind them. "Madame Servalan
does it more than justice."
Vila tried to conceal a shudder as he studied the newcomer. Grey
skin, thick cord-like ridges circling his eyes, running down his neck. A
lizard, or an insect. Dark eyes and a smile as insincere as Servalan's.
Murray
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 01:33:49 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Moondisks (was: Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188)
Message-ID: <20000704083349.10368.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Pat wrote:
<The example should maybe have been Blake's genocidal act, killing an entire
intelligent species (apart from the one in Cally's room). We know they're
intelligent because previously in the episode they've been communicating
with and helping Cally.>
Depends on what you call 'intelligent' - nothing that Cally says indicates
any *sentient* intelligence, just consciousness (whatever that means <g>),
telepathic warm-and-fuzziness and helping her much in the way a dog will
help you if it can grasp what you want (which, it being a telepathic
communication, need not have been anything approaching sentience.).
And, as Ellynne points out, Cally doesn't utter a peep of protest (her
attitude to the one she saves is *entirely* that of someone with a pet) so I
can't believe that she - would has been 'communicating' with them -
considers them an intelligent species. Yes, her conscience is somewhat in
abeyance in this episode, but I'm not really prepared to see it as *that*
lacking.
Wiping out an animal/vegetable species (which, telepathic or not, they still
appear to be) comes under the heading of enforced extinction, not genocide,
and since they're being harvested and killed anyway (and others are being
killed by them) ...
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Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 01:34:30 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: (Fwd) Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <20000704083430.27982.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Dana wrote:
<If you're not the lead sled dog, the scenery never changes. The Lower
Grades may feel that they have very little stake in what the Alphas are
doing, because whatever happens, they're still going to be working in
factories and cleaning houses.>
I doubt that the lower grades of worlds like Albian (who along with the rest
of the population were being ground into *total* impoverishment - and guess
who normally starve first) would quite see it that way ... (and personally,
I wouldn't be that confident of the views of those who *were* being drugged,
no matter how many or few one chooses to argue this may be).
On Saurian Major, OTOH, Blake says, half the population were butchered, the
rest transported (and this is termed 'typical Federation efficiency'). Going
by 20th century precedents (Katyn, Cambodia) there's a good chance that the
upper grades/intelligencia were among the former. So maybe one was better
off being lower down, as 'twere ...
OTOOH, Joban (Voice) says clearly that Blake's support is spread from the
Alphas to labour grades ("They talk of him as a sort of...hero"), so it
appears at least some (and a significant some in the President's eyes) of
the lower classes are *not* indifferent (whether passive through fear,
inertia or helplessness).
Swings and roundabouts, maybe ...
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Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 10:24:13 +0100 (BST)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.1000704102320.2028A-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 3 Jul 2000, Judith Proctor wrote:
> given how difficult climate control is in reality - anyone out there know an
> easy way of halting global warming?
I have a simple and elegant solution to the problem of climate change, but
unfortunately the margin of this post is to small to contain it.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 02:10:42 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188
Message-ID: <3961AA11.D7DBEFA9@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Pat Sumner wrote:
> From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
>
> >Oh, and to Una's example of the dreamheads who died when Blake blew up
> their
> >Shadow supply, I'd add the inhabitants of a number of planets whose weather
> >system was controlled by Star One.
>
> I realise that I should be quoting Una's example myself, but I can't find it
> anywhere(!)
Probably because I'm the one who brought up the dreamheads, not Una.
> I believe that Una was saying something along the lines of Blake not caring
> what results his actions produced, resulting in the deaths of all the
> dreamheads, hopelessly addicted to Shadow.
Actually, I didn't say at all that Blake didn't care; what I said, was
that it's reasonable to assume that at least some portion of the
population didn't agree with or appreciate his actions. I'm quite
certain that he did care, that he'd decided that the ends justified
whatever means he had to use.
> Surely all those dreamheads were addicted to a substance which was going to
> kill them soon in any case?
I wish I could say that I'm surprised, but unfortunately I knew
that somebody would bring this up.
We are *all* dying from the day we're born, some of us faster
than others. The fact that someone is dying does *not* IMO make
their life less valuable; it may make each day more precious to them
and those that love them. Did you really get the impression that Bek
didn't care about Petey's death?
Many addictions kill the addicts if allowed to go to their natural
conclusion, for example alcoholism. Would you really walk into
an oppressive regime and execute all the alcoholics if it would
bring freedom to the survivors? Or maybe you'd go to Africa
and execute all the Aids sufferers (including 25% of 15-18 year
olds in some countries, so I've read) on the grounds the standard
of living would go up for everyone else. Paint me hopelessly
retro, but I find those horrifying prospects.
I think that the shadow addicts, like any other addicts, were not as
a rule trying to kill themselves, but trying to make their lives more
bearable. They may have consciously been trading length of life
for quality of life, or perhaps they thought they'd escape the 'it just
kills you' part (denial is a part of addiction), but that's a far cry from
signing away your right to live.
The disturbing thing is that Blake knew that destroying the cacti
wouldn't even have much effect toward his cause; he *said* so.
He was just sending a message to the President. Expensive message.
If he'd cared, he could have at least had Orac attempt to formulate
a cure for shadow addiction, or a maintenance drug. Blake is being
at least as selfish and short-sighted here as Avon at the end of Killer.
And <sigh> before anybody flames me for taking this position, let's
remember that Our Heroes skirt the line between heroism and
terrorism rather closely, and that it appears to be designed into the
series; that's part of its appeal. Yes, I come down just a bit to the
terrorism side. Wouldn't it be dull if nobody did?
Cheers,
Mistral
--
"Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!"
--Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 02:22:34 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing
Message-ID: <3961ACD9.DE550F13@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Alison Page wrote:
> I'm not a DS9 expert (I don't really know his back story) but whenever I see
> Garak I think 'Vila'. But then I have kind of idiosyncratic view of Vila
> anyway, where the deceit goes very deep, and there's a lot more violence.
Ooh, what a tease. Can't you at least give us a thumbnail? Or is it
not suitable for this lyst?
Mistral
--
"Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!"
--Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 02:25:45 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Labyrinth (was Fave episodes/ class status/gender)
Message-ID: <3961AD98.60AE7E4F@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Joanne wrote:
> >From: mistral@ptinet.net
> >Does it help any if I volunteer that I don't see any resemblance
> >between the two (perish the thought--I'm very fond of Jareth),
> >but I've always seen a distinct similarity between Jareth and Avon?
>
> Er <thinks for a second>, no, the only (vague) similarity I can think of
> off-hand, involving trousers shall we say, is best discussed on the Other
> List, and I was there only briefly some time back (something didn't like me
> being there, I know not what...)
Well, actually, I was thinking personality-wise; but if you're looking
for a physical similarity, there's that lovely sullen pout.
Mistral
--
"Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!"
--Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 12:20:15 +0100
From: Alison Page <alison_page@becta.org.uk>
To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution
Message-ID: <21B0197931E1D211A26E0008C79F6C4AB0C675@BRAMLEY>
Content-Type: text/plain
There seems to be a bit of a consensus on the list that as Andrew says:
> the "Lower Grades" have nothing material to gain by change
As a member of the Lower Grades I'd just like to say that this is manifestly
not the case.
Please note that I am not saying that any particular program of change is
guaranteed to produce material improvement. Nor am I saying that Blake's
revolution is such a program (apart from the disadvantage that it is
fictional).
What I'm saying is that clearly the lower classes can benefit from change,
because they have done so in loads of examples. This can be gradualistic
change (as in the UK in the last century) or precipitate change (as in South
America under Simon Bolivar). An explicit political program can (to take an
example) reduce deaths in childbirth, decrease infant mortality, increase
average heights by inches within decades, increase life expectancy by years,
eliminate rickets, improve literacy (this is particularly true for female
literacy levels) and so on virtually indefinitely.
Let me just take one example. My grandmother and I were both born to
homeless households without a breadwinner. She is under five feet tall, with
only basic education, and she nearly died in childbirth without anaesthetic.
I am six inches taller than her, I've been to University, and I had full
surgical attention which saved my life in childbirth. I work for 8 hours a
day, she worked for 14. These are not trivial differences. I actually think
such a 'material gain' is literally worth dying for.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:24:43 +0100 (BST)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.1000704130550.2028B-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 4 Jul 2000, Alison Page wrote:
> There seems to be a bit of a consensus on the list that as Andrew says:
>
> > the "Lower Grades" have nothing material to gain by change
>
> As a member of the Lower Grades I'd just like to say that this is manifestly
> not the case.
<much wisdom snipped>
I'm jumping in here because this discussion has been bugging me a bit, and
I want to articulate why.
There seems to be this assumption that the 'lower grades' are effectively
apolitical, through choice or apathy. Does no-one remember Red Clydeside?
The 'lower grades' can be intelligent, literate, well-informed and highly
politicised.
For some reason, this reminds me of a story that was told on a TV
programme about the life of Kenneth Williams. Sometime in the 70s,
Williams caused some controversy by making forceful, right-wing,
anti-union comments on the Parkinson chat show. Such was the hubbub that
Williams was invited back on the show the following week to debate these
points with a trade unionist: namely Jimmy Reid, a highly articulate and
intelligent man who at that time worked in the Glasgow shipyards. Williams
didn't know Reid, and clearly regarded himself as far more cultured than
this Glaswegian manual worker. Before the show, they did a soundcheck.
Normally, each speaker would simply say a few words into the microphone,
but Williams rose and gave a powerful, eloquent delivery of a beautiful
poem. As he sat down, Reid said 'That was Yeats, wasn't it?'. Grumpily,
Wiliams acknowledged that it was. Then Reid did his soundcheck. Again, he
delivered a powerfull, passionate poem that left the audience profoundly
moved. Then he turned to Williams and said 'Do you know who wrote that?'
When Williams said he didn't know, Reid told him 'I did'. When it came to
the televised discussion, Williams was clearly rattled, and very
uncomfortable indeed.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:48:45 +0100
From: Alison Page <alison_page@becta.org.uk>
To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing
Message-ID: <21B0197931E1D211A26E0008C79F6C4AB0C677@BRAMLEY>
Content-Type: text/plain
Mistral said -
>Ooh, what a tease. Can't you at least give us a thumbnail?
Oh, you know, I tend to bang on about this from time to time. I kind of
considered the idea that Vila (and later Tarrant) were both Fed spies, or
started as Fed spies and went native. I still like this idea, but I can't
prevent myself taking it a bit further
In my private canon Vila is actually an agent of whoever is behind the whole
first two seasons. Whether human, alien, or artificial intelligence. The
enigmatic 'forces' who made sure that the London, carrying just the right
people, stumbled across the Liberator, just the right ship. Who made sure
that Blake found Star One, and that Servalan was in a position to believe he
found it, and help him fight the andromedans.
I'm thinking of agencies that have brain power but very little physical
force, and so manipulate human beings into doing the hard work
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:03:32 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" <BLAKES7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] APE
Message-ID: <200007040903_MC2-AB17-DBC9@compuserve.com>
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charset=ISO-8859-1
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In June, we were told about a publication called APE which included a B7
graphic story by Loulou Harris and might be available via WHSmith. Smith
and other places I tried looked blank, and the notice did say something
about getting copies by mail order when the retailers started returning
them. Are there any more details on this?
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:03:46 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] After the revolution
Message-ID: <200007040904_MC2-AB17-DBD6@compuserve.com>
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charset=ISO-8859-1
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Sally wrote:
>Tynus seems to be private security
I think not. According to the transcripts, Mr Tynus says: "I'm only the
commander technician here. Federation Security is in charge of all
sensitive stores." Don't think the Federation were the types to have
private security on their bases.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:03:53 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Cheeky Cockneys - not [was Re: Greco-Roman comedy]
Message-ID: <200007040904_MC2-AB17-DBD7@compuserve.com>
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charset=ISO-8859-1
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Neil identified as a Cheeky Cockney:
>George Formby, a very definite contender.
Come off it, he's the Emperor of Lankysheer.
By the way, Neil, I hope you're going to explain the real significance of
the evacuation of the Jackass penguins from Robben Island?
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 09:27:04 PDT
From: "Hellen Paskaleva" <hellen_pas@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L]After the revolution
Message-ID: <20000704162704.35194.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Again time for a revolution, eh? I'm back then. ;-)
>From: Andrew Ellis:
>Was what Blake wanted a kind of
>splitting up of planetary systems with a turbulent past, lots of
>intermingling and different ideals? A bit like the Balkans then.
>Might be a good idea
Ha! Nice sample. I live there, but I didn't thought about it... Well, as the
Balkans were part of the Soviet block and as such they acted as one single
economical and political body, we *can* compare them to the Federation.
After the downfall of Berlin wall in the beginning of the 90's, countries
from the region spitted up from Russia and became effectively independent -
with economical and political structure of their own. (Here we have to
exclude Serbia, which still is federative communist republic.) After only
several years of a relative chaos, situation with the civil rights in the
countries from Balkan region improved significantly (as well as their
economical conditions) and most of them now can meet European Union's
criteria in these fields. Which is unthinkable progress, believe me...
If we extrapolate this to the size of the Earth Federation, we can assume
that not long ... after the revolution, we will have vast number of planets
with independent governments and stabilising economies. We don't know how
many of them will be actually democratic and non-totalitarian, but this is
entirely at their own to decide. Probably their experience with the
Federation will prevent people there to make the wrong choice.
>...I just hope Blake puts the right people in
>the right places to keep the whole thing stable.
I do not think this is Blake's job - to "put" or remove governing bodies.
The very idea of the change is to let the planets and their people to make
*their* choice who will rule them. IMO.
Hellen
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Date: Tue Jul 4 17:48:05 BST 2000
From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
Message-Id: <200007041653.RAA31768@smtp.uk2net.com>
> Sally wrote:
> >
> > Avon OTOH has strong (if erratic) protective instincts, but of the three
> > crew members who inspire them most strongly, two of them are Fearless
> Leader
> > (for the most part as fragile as a battering ram) and the Valkyrie Dayna
> > (who would scare the dickens out of any sensible man and the first time
> she
> > lays eyes on him, slings him over her shoulder and carts him off to a
> > deserted cave :-)). Two of the *strongest* people he comes across.
> >
> > Avon does have this wonderful illogical streak among the cold rationality,
> > and it's such *fun* to watch it in action.
Trish:
> Not at all irrational. Neither Fearless Leader or Dayna are physically weak
> but both have a tendency to be impulsive, acting before thinking (if they
> ever get round to that) and therefore need someone to come along and rescue
> them, sweep up the pieces or protect them from their own irrationality.
> Perfectly logical. <g>
>
I like this idea - Avon might not be the most handy in a fight, so his
protective impulses are directed towards an area where he actually *can*
protect people. Sweet.
Love,
Ika
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Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 22:52:46 +1000
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <20000704225246.A27294@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 02:32:52PM -0700, Sally Manton wrote:
> Ika wrote:
> <So Blake, for me, is trying to obtain freedom and self-government for all
> colonized planets in the first instance - what he would do on Earth if he
> won and the Federation ceased ruling there is another question,>
>
> It's totally without canonical or any other evidence, but I'm convinced that
> Blake did not expect to survive the Federation's downfall.
Not cannonical, perhaps, but I think there are intimations.
Jenna: At least you're still alive.
Blake: No! Not until free men can think and speak. Not until power is
back with the honest man.
Avon: Have you ever _met_ an honest man?
(Blake's 7: Spacefall [A2])
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@foobox.net>
/ \ | http://www.foobox.net/~kat
\_.--.*/ | http://jove.prohosting.com/~rubykat
v | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 23:16:23 +1000
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <20000704231623.C27294@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 02:30:28PM -0400, B7Morrigan@aol.com wrote:
> Murray wrote:
>
> > The Federation, by contrast, appeared to be hostile to _all_ religion as a
> > matter of ideology, and for that reason reminds me more of the Soviet Union
> > under Stalin.
>
> I'd agree that the Federation resembles the Soviet Union in objection to all
> religion; I wonder if religion was kept as alive in the Federation as the
> Russian Orthodox Church managed.
I would think so. I'd also expect that a number of the non-Federation
worlds would be very religious by contrast, having been colinized by
those fleeing religious persecution.
Kathryn Andersen
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Gan: What's that expression of yours?
Cally: Companions for our death? (Blake's 7: Bounty [A11])
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@foobox.net>
/ \ | http://www.foobox.net/~kat
\_.--.*/ | http://jove.prohosting.com/~rubykat
v | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #189
**************************************