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blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 226
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] See how in haiku 'Blake's [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ]
Re: [B7L] See how in haiku 'Blake's [ Iain Coleman <ijc@bas.ac.uk> ]
Re: [B7L] Time [ "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btin ]
Re: [B7L] See how in haiku 'Blake's [ Iain Coleman <ijc@bas.ac.uk> ]
Re: [B7L] Time [ Iain Coleman <ijc@bas.ac.uk> ]
Re: [B7L] New book by Camille Bacon- [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
Re: [B7L] See how in haiku 'Blake's [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
Re: [B7L] See how in haiku 'Blake's [ "Jessica Taylor" <morgaine54@hotmai ]
[B7L] Re:limericks [ Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net> ]
[B7L] Re: haiku [ Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net> ]
Re: [B7L] Time [ Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@power ]
Re: [B7L] Re:limericks [ Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@power ]
[B7L] Re: Haiku [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
Re: [B7L] New book by Camille Bacon- [ "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.con ]
Re: [B7L] New book by Camille Bacon- [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
Re: [B7L] Re:limericks [ B7Morrigan@aol.com ]
Re: [B7L] See how in haiku 'Blake's [ mistral@ptinet.net ]
Re: [B7L] Re:limericks [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ]
Re: [B7L] Time [ Iain Coleman <ijc@bas.ac.uk> ]
Re: [B7L] New book by Camille Bacon- [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
Re: [B7L] New book by Camille Bacon- [ Bizarro7@aol.com ]
RE: Re: [B7L] See how in limericks ' [ nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net ]
RE: Re: [B7L] See how in haiku 'Blak [ nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net ]
[B7L] Re: Redemption [ Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@mcr1 ]
[B7L] Haiku - Characters. [ Bernard Hunt <bernie@comp.lancs.ac. ]
Re: [B7L] See how in haiku 'Blake's [ "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.con ]
Re: [B7L] Haiku - Characters. [ "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.con ]
[B7L] Non fan haiku [ "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.con ]
[B7L] Zenith [ "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.de ]
Re: [B7L] Haiku - Characters. [ "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.de ]
Re: Re: [B7L] See how in limericks ' [ "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.de ]
Re: [B7L] Time [ "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btin ]
Re: [B7L] Non fan haiku [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
Re: Re: [B7L] See how in limericks ' [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 08:34:24 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] See how in haiku 'Blake's 7' is suddenly somehow less tacky
Message-ID: <F144yscXIW6Jm3pHToG0000b745@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bas.ac.uk> And here's mine:
>Whip out your tackle
>And nail it to the cheeseboard
>- you know you want to.
Less tacky?
Regards
Joanne
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 23:44:12 +0100 (BST)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bas.ac.uk>
To: b7 <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] See how in haiku 'Blake's 7' is suddenly somehow less tacky
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.1000809234157.8807A-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 9 Aug 2000, Neil Faulkner wrote:
>
> Rumours of Death:
> Just a plot device.
> No more nuts, a life cut short.
> Alas, poor squirrel.
This is pure art. Like the finest comedy, it expresses the most
fundamental and tragic truths about the universe, while leaving the
audience crying with laughter.
If this one doesn't end up on your website, Una, We Shall Have Words.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 23:40:42 +0100
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Time
Message-ID: <004801c003e5$49461e20$3f227bd5@leanet>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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>>>>>> "Andrew" == Andrew Ellis <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com> writes:
>
>> Erm. Basically. NO. At the simplest level FTL travel in itself simply
allows
>> you to travel arbitrarily fast, but NOT backwards in time.
>
>Wrong. Any FTL travel implies (as long as the theory of relativity
>holds) the possibility for effects predating causes, which is in
>practice the same as time travel. See
>http://www.physics.purdue.edu/~hinson/ftl/ for much detail (written
>for Star Trek, but most of it is valid for Real Life).
>http://www.physics.purdue.edu/~hinson/ftl/html/FTL_part4.html#sec:ftleqvofc
>goes straight to the bit about causality violation, but you probably
>need to have a look at the terminology before you can make sense of it.
Cursory problems with this analysis.
1)
Define C as some arbitrary limiting velocity which may (or may not) be
faster than c (C is in general finite, but I might be inclined to consider
tending to infinity, a useful mathematical process for dealing with
infinities and avoiding problems of division by zero etc)
In the discussion of figure 8.1, we are informed that everything is OK if
people (travelling at a velocity vp) AND messages (vm) can only travel at
(vp,vm) < c. The only explanations proffered relate to space time diagrams.
Using this explanation. why should things be any different if we just use
(vp, vm) < C ? There is no reason I can see, you just replace c with C, and
assert that there is nothing any more special about the speed of light than
there is about the speed of sound, but that C is a hard limiting factor. We
only have a causality problem if vp > vm and if you allow c < vp < C, why
not allow c < vm < C ?
I paraphrase ..... "As long as no signal can travel faster than <a limiting
speed C>, then it will be impossible for either observer to know about or
influence the event. So even though it is in one observer's past, he cannot
know about it, and even though it is in the other observer's future, he
cannot have an effect on it. This is how <thinking in frames of reference>
saves its own self from violating causality. " C can be any speed that
constrains the velocity of everything. It is once you allow one thing to
exceed C, you get problems, not the specific value of C.
In section 8.3 we define a paradox by introducing a bullet (velocity vm),
and imagine that vp > vb > vm, but we should really allow vp =< vb = vm = C.
In which case there is no paradox. After all, messages can always travel at
C, you encode whatever travels at C with your message !
Basically, lets insist that vp=vm=vb < C. If C < c, no problem, that is
normality. If C = c, no problem. If C = c + a little bit, still no problem.
And a little bit more ......
And anyway, it's not time travel being suggested just some sideways hint at
the grandfather paradox.
2)
Equation 9.4. Actually, its not the REST mass (m) squared that is negative,
but gamma squared, and consequently E squares and p squared that are. We
know this because at v > c, gamma is imaginary. If E squared and p squared
are both negative then inequality 9.3 holds for purely real mass. And I note
that contrary to the author observation, these equations suggest a negative
tachion energy, in accordance with peer reviewed scientific publications.
A tachions energy becomes less negative as the velocity increases. i.e. its
energy increases as its velocity increases ? Or its velocity decreases as it
emits radiation.
We then have an assumption, that you can use them for communication. i.e you
can get them to interact with matter.
With regard to the possible truths about tachions, I note that 1 and 2 are
degenerate.
Back to the meat.
What do we actually mean by time travel. Its the old grandfather paradox.
It's going back in time in your own frame of reference.
But anyway, provided we have a universal hard limiting velocity (C) there is
no time travel as would be recognised by individuals. Imagine time travel in
the same way as the twin paradox. In the usual statement of the twin
paradox, one twin ages more rapidly than the other and they are different
ages when they meet (It is widely accepted that this has been experimentally
observed, with two clocks showing different times after one has travelled in
a jet aircraft. However, due to the effects of general relativity, the ages
are actually the opposite way around than predicted by special relativity.
But I digress). To demonstrate a personal experience of time travel, you
need to meet your twin before you even left him, that, it, if he was 20 when
you left, he needs to be 18 when you get back, not 80 (as in the twin
paradox), otherwise, you would not experience any manifestation of time
travel within your own frame of reference. FTL travel does not, in itself
allow this, and nothing in this article suggests that it could. Of course,
if time travel is allowed, FTL travel follows naturally, but not the other
way around.
Gnog.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 23:46:50 +0100 (BST)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bas.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] See how in haiku 'Blake's 7' is suddenly somehow less tacky
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.1000809234606.8807B-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, J MacQueen wrote:
> >From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bas.ac.uk> And here's mine:
> >Whip out your tackle
> >And nail it to the cheeseboard
> >- you know you want to.
>
> Less tacky?
Than 'Animals'? You bet.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 00:02:25 +0100 (BST)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bas.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Time
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.1000809235301.8807C-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Fri, 11 Aug 2000, Andrew Ellis wrote:
>
> What do we actually mean by time travel. Its the old grandfather paradox.
> It's going back in time in your own frame of reference.
>
> But anyway, provided we have a universal hard limiting velocity (C) there is
> no time travel as would be recognised by individuals. Imagine time travel in
> the same way as the twin paradox. In the usual statement of the twin
> paradox, one twin ages more rapidly than the other and they are different
> ages when they meet (It is widely accepted that this has been experimentally
> observed, with two clocks showing different times after one has travelled in
> a jet aircraft. However, due to the effects of general relativity, the ages
> are actually the opposite way around than predicted by special relativity.
> But I digress). To demonstrate a personal experience of time travel, you
> need to meet your twin before you even left him, that, it, if he was 20 when
> you left, he needs to be 18 when you get back, not 80 (as in the twin
> paradox), otherwise, you would not experience any manifestation of time
> travel within your own frame of reference. FTL travel does not, in itself
> allow this, and nothing in this article suggests that it could. Of course,
> if time travel is allowed, FTL travel follows naturally, but not the other
> way around.
I'm having some difficulty in following this analysis. This may be because
it refers to some text with which I'm unfamiliar, or because it's not
couched in standard relativistic terminology, or because I'm very drunk.
No matter.
It is quite clear, from the most elementary spacetime diagram, than a
superluminal velocity allows a causal connection between events separated
by a spacelike interval. This interval can be transformed into any other
spacelike interval by the Lorentz transformation. In particular, one can
choose a Lorentz transformation such that the second event occurs at an
earlier time than the first. Thus, FTL travel implies time travel.
It is not, however, clear to me that FTL travel alone suffices for a given
observer to travel into his own past light cone. In that respect, issues
such as the grandfather paradox need not arise, and FTL travel appears to
be a limited form of time travel.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 19:06:27 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] New book by Camille Bacon-Smith
Message-ID: <39920013.89C717ED@sdc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Una McCormack wrote:
> > > I thought people might be interested to know that there is a new book
> > > out by
> > > Camille Bacon-Smith (who wrote 'Enterprising Women' about media fandom).
> >
> > Hey, I just bought this. Like, yesterday!
>
> We are the good taste twins!
Correction of possible minor confusion: it's _Enterprising Women_ I just
bought, not the new book. Hence my grumbling. The nerve of these
authors, writing new books before I've had the chance to read their old
ones!
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"Imposing Latin rules on English structure is a little
like trying to play baseball in ice skates." -- Bill Bryson
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 19:11:39 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] See how in haiku 'Blake's 7' is suddenly somehow less tacky
Message-ID: <3992014B.F3D3014E@sdc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Responding to me, Una wrote:
> > I'll let you know whether I accept the mission when I find out
> > whether my muse is back from wherever it went on vacation.
>
> Your mission, then, is track down your muse.
Well, she came slinking back from wherever she went, but does not seem
inclined to do much real work at the moment. Sort of like me when I get
back from vacation. I did try the haiku, but the best I could come up
with was:
"Orbit":
The ship's too heavy
Avon thinks fast, grabs a gun
Vila, where are you?
"Blake":
At last they find Blake
His act's much too convincing
Everybody dies
Which may be fairly servicable as plot summaries, but are really quite
dull (especially when compared to Helen's little "Aftermath" gem) and
have nothing at all to do with Nature, or whatever the criterion for a
"real" haiku was...
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"Imposing Latin rules on English structure is a little
like trying to play baseball in ice skates." -- Bill Bryson
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:46:45 EST
From: "Jessica Taylor" <morgaine54@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] See how in haiku 'Blake's 7' is suddenly somehow less tacky
Message-ID: <F221FJS51MK3WE0OVNQ0000001b@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Betty wrote:
>Which may be fairly servicable as plot summaries, but are really quite
>dull (especially when compared to Helen's little "Aftermath" gem) and
>have nothing at all to do with Nature, or whatever the criterion for a
>"real" haiku was...
Yeah, this seems to be the hardest thing about haiku. The criteria was
something about needing to express a feeling or emotion in the poem and I
had the same problem you talk about, it isn't too difficult to say what
happened but it makes it harder if you're trying to describe someones
reaction to it happening.
Helens onre for Aftermath probably comes closest to doing this and I
remember someone did a good one for Trial.
Jessica
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 18:09:04 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re:limericks
Message-ID: <399200B0.5D07@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Penny,
We're not worthy!
But continue, anyhow.
BTW, I hope you don't mind, but I named a Professor at Hogwarts after
you.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 18:11:47 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: haiku
Message-ID: <39920153.1DA5@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Wow, Mistral... yours were good summaries, well, phrased, and
contemplative of the episode. Proper haiku indeed. Some liberties, of
course, but closer than most of us have gotten.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 22:47:40 -0600
From: Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@powersurfr.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Time
Message-Id: <4.1.20000809224425.00934270@mail.powersurfr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:02 AM 8/10/00 +0100, Iain Coleman wrote:
>It is quite clear, from the most elementary spacetime diagram, than a
>superluminal velocity allows a causal connection between events separated
>by a spacelike interval. This interval can be transformed into any other
>spacelike interval by the Lorentz transformation. In particular, one can
>choose a Lorentz transformation such that the second event occurs at an
>earlier time than the first. Thus, FTL travel implies time travel.
Yeah, that's what I meant.
>It is not, however, clear to me that FTL travel alone suffices for a given
>observer to travel into his own past light cone. In that respect, issues
>such as the grandfather paradox need not arise, and FTL travel appears to
>be a limited form of time travel.
And that's what I failed to mention. Thank you, your Eminence.
--
For A Dread Time, Call Penny:
http://members.tripod.com/~Penny_Dreadful/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 22:50:35 -0600
From: Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@powersurfr.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:limericks
Message-Id: <4.1.20000809224754.0093c660@mail.powersurfr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 06:09 PM 8/9/00 -0700, Helen Krummenacker wrote:
>I hope you don't mind, but I named a Professor at Hogwarts after
>you.
Ooh, do I get to be mean to Harry Potter? (;-p)
--
For A Dread Time, Call Penny:
http://members.tripod.com/~Penny_Dreadful/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 00:20:33 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Haiku
Message-ID: <005d01c00287$9d0eb080$1f614e0c@dshilling>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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Imagine this mousse belongs
To a space captain
Moloch says: curl up and dye
-(Y)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 06:32:49 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] New book by Camille Bacon-Smith
Message-ID: <0b8601c0028d$1cd1f520$0d01a8c0@codex>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Betty wrote:
> Una McCormack wrote:
>
> > > > I thought people might be interested to know that there is a new
book
> > > > out by
> > > > Camille Bacon-Smith (who wrote 'Enterprising Women' about media
fandom).
> > >
> > > Hey, I just bought this. Like, yesterday!
> >
> > We are the good taste twins!
>
> Correction of possible minor confusion: it's _Enterprising Women_ I just
> bought, not the new book.
Hey, I bought that one last week and am reading it now!
Una
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 00:06:13 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] New book by Camille Bacon-Smith
Message-ID: <39924655.4EB90D0D@sdc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Una McCormack wrote:
> > Correction of possible minor confusion: it's _Enterprising Women_ I just
> > bought, not the new book.
>
> Hey, I bought that one last week and am reading it now!
Well, then, very much the Good Taste Twins! (And here I thought *Sally*
was my twin on this list!) I'm probably going to start reading my copy
tomorrow, after I've finished the Bizarro zine I'm currently perusing.
Ah, I am a happy little fan!
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"Imposing Latin rules on English structure is a little
like trying to play baseball in ice skates." -- Bill Bryson
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 03:02:28 EDT
From: B7Morrigan@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:limericks
Message-ID: <67.811ca48.26c3ad84@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> At 06:09 PM 8/9/00 -0700, Helen Krummenacker wrote:
>
> >I hope you don't mind, but I named a Professor at Hogwarts after
> >you.
>
Penny replied:
> Ooh, do I get to be mean to Harry Potter? (;-p)
> --
And what's her relationship with Snape?
Morrigan
"When I get a little money I buy zines; and if any is left I buy food and
clothes."
(apologies to Erasmus)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 23:25:39 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] See how in haiku 'Blake's 7' is suddenly somehow less tacky
Message-ID: <39924AE2.C0BAEEC5@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Una wrote:
> > What fun. Last year, during a dull spell on the lyst, I thought of writing
> > a prequel to 'Animals' in haiku. Really.
>
> Brilliant! Will you write it anyway and can I have it for my 'Animals'
> love-in site - as proof that 'Animals' inspires people to poetry?
I hope you're proud of yourself. I've just wasted nearly a day trying
to decide if this makes you a sadist or a masochist.
Mistral
--
"Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!"
--Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:16:06 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:limericks
Message-ID: <F144mENOPODvIbttyDE0000bd4c@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: B7Morrigan@aol.com
> Penny replied:
> > Ooh, do I get to be mean to Harry Potter? (;-p)
>And what's her relationship with Snape?
Suddenly, I'm thinking Dreadful-Snape - admittedly, it's an interesting
name, but I shudder to think what its owner would get up to...
Regards
Joanne
(contemplating Travis II as an antidote - yes, it is time to go home, why do
you ask?)
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:17:03 +0100 (BST)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bas.ac.uk>
To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Time
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.1000810101133.18234A-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 9 Aug 2000, Alison Page wrote:
> The statement 'FTL travel is possible for normal matter, but relativity is
> true' is a self-contradictory statement, so you can argue from it that
> either time travel is possible, or time travel is impossible. Because you
> can prove anything from a contradictory premise.
>
> So everyone is right
It's a neat argument, Alison, but I don't think it's valid. This is really
an argument about geometry. Special Relativity postulates that spacetime
has a particular geometry, and that would be unaffected by the existence
of superluminal travel. What _would_ require serious reconsideration would
be the physical interpretation of that geometry, in particular of causal
structures. This does not have to lead to logical contradictions, however.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 09:26:17 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] New book by Camille Bacon-Smith
Message-ID: <LAW-F254X0XRix8Ivm500013e68@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Betty wrote:
<Well, then, very much the Good Taste Twins! (And here I thought
*Sally* was my twin on this list!)>
Yes well this twin has to either wait till the book arrives in
Australia or go and order it specially ... and my bankcard's still
recovering from the last time I did that ($240 for two books,
Elizabethan funerals and medieval ghosts...)
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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 07:14:47 EDT
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] New book by Camille Bacon-Smith
Message-ID: <f3.1afe412.26c3e8a7@aol.com>
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Has anyone else seen that hour-long Showtime documentary on Trek Fandom in
all its nuances? It's salted throughout with the most fascinating (and
sometimes hysterical) anecdotes as told by the actors. It even discusses
fanfic and slash. I thought it was terrific, and kept wishing it would have
covered the whole of media fanfic somewhere down the line, including B7.
This, after seeing a full-page article in the local newspaper on the topic of
slash fanfic on the web. Welcome to the cultural mainstream!
Leah
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 09:36 +0100
From: nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net
To: Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@powersurfr.com>,
lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: Re: [B7L] See how in limericks 'Blake's 7' is suddenly somehoweven more tacky
Message-Id: <20000810113623.8F601F84E3@chalfont.mail.uk.easynet.net>
>Una did complain:
>
>>> Alas, I'm crap at writing haiku. So, at the end of this message, are my
>>> feeble attempts at the first few episodes, and your mission, should you
>>> choose to accept it, is to supply me with the rest.
>
>I still can't do haiku. But how about limericks?
>
<fun snipped>
Quatrains?
Wake! For something in the Rebel's brain
Has started his memories going again
Causing him to spout slogans, steal spaceships
And clutch his forehead as if in pain...
That sound you hear is Omar Khayyam doing 360 degrees.
Fiona
http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html
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Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 09:42 +0100
From: nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net
To: mistral@ptinet.net, B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: Re: [B7L] See how in haiku 'Blake's 7' is suddenly somehow less tacky
Message-Id: <20000810113630.8C9D7F85EA@chalfont.mail.uk.easynet.net>
>Hmm. No, I think it's just as tacky.
>Mistral
No, no, some of them are quite deep.
Fiona
http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:05:25 +0000
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Redemption
Message-ID: <3992C4B4.AFFE189D@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
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Jacqueline asked: "when do we get the hotel booking
forms? The website says "nearer to the convention date", which is a wee
bit
vague for my taste."
We are putting together the hotel booking forms at the moment along with
the second progress report. If all goes to schedule, these will be
mailed out together in October.
--
cheers
Steve Rogerson
http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson
Redemption: The Blake's 7 and Babylon 5 convention
23-25 February 2001, Ashford, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:17:16 +0100 (BST)
From: Bernard Hunt <bernie@comp.lancs.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Haiku - Characters.
Message-Id: <200008101417.PAA14373@slave.lancs.ac.uk>
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Middle of the night
I should write some *bad* Haiku
Blake's Seven people.
Vila, good with locks
adrenalin and soma
his drink of choice
Avon, hi-tech wiz
popular with the ladies
man in black leather
Cally, Auronar
no need to say any more
you can read my mind !
Blake started it all
but in the end, do we know
did he betray them ?
Smuggler and pilot
Jenna never really grew
kind of disappeared
Gan, strong as an ox
some would say a little slow
but his heart was good
Supreme Commander
very evil but stylish
her name Servalan
Travis, two faced man
but with only one good eye
surely doomed to fail
Zen, ships computer
ask an important question
answer clear as mud !
Slave, grovel, grovel
you are not responsible
it is all my fault
Orac, know it all
yet absence of social skills
insufferable
I ran out of steam
and had to go back to bed
you can do the rest . . .
Best regards, Bernie
I shall go back to lurking
seven further years ?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 17:06:01 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "B7 List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] See how in haiku 'Blake's 7' is suddenly somehow less tacky
Message-ID: <0c5501c002e4$fd5ddd00$0d01a8c0@codex>
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Mistral wrote:
> Una wrote:
>
> > > What fun. Last year, during a dull spell on the lyst, I thought of
writing
> > > a prequel to 'Animals' in haiku. Really.
> >
> > Brilliant! Will you write it anyway and can I have it for my 'Animals'
> > love-in site - as proof that 'Animals' inspires people to poetry?
>
> I hope you're proud of yourself. I've just wasted nearly a day trying
> to decide if this makes you a sadist or a masochist.
Either way.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:00:00 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Haiku - Characters.
Message-ID: <0c9801c002ec$902dc530$0d01a8c0@codex>
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Bernie wrote:
> Middle of the night
> I should write some *bad* Haiku
> Blake's Seven people.
[snip]
> Best regards, Bernie
> I shall go back to lurking
> seven further years ?
Wow. Hope you post more often, Bernie.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:14:17 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Non fan haiku
Message-ID: <0caf01c002ee$6bc1aa20$0d01a8c0@codex>
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This was written by my friend Ian, who isn't a fan, and has seen only 2 1/2
episodes.
Cygnus Alpha:
Somebody told me
Brian Blessed was in this.
I must have missed him.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:10:23 +0100
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Zenith
Message-ID: <008c01c002f2$1bc1c9c0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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A replacement copy of Zenith arrived today and - yay - the blank pages are
now full of even more lovely pics of Brian Croucher. Delightful
The interview with Peter Miles is very funny isn't it?
PM - 'I was cast as a German scientist called Rudolph Hess'
Int - 'It was Heinz Laubenthal'
PM - 'Was it? How very disappointing'
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:23:04 +0100
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Haiku - Characters.
Message-ID: <008d01c002f2$1cefe980$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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Lurk for seven years
And then post fourteen haikus
Stylish achievement
>Slave, grovel, grovel
>you are not responsible
>it is all my fault
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:32:49 +0100
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Re: [B7L] See how in limericks 'Blake's 7' is suddenly somehoweven more tacky
Message-ID: <008e01c002f2$1e0418a0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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Fiona
>Quatrains?
Yes, I like it. It almost fits what we have been discussing.
Awake, for distorts in the dome of night
Have warped the core and set the stars to flight
And lo! the paradox of time hath caught
The fleeing space ship in a cone of light
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 22:03:23 +0100
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Time
Message-ID: <001201c004a0$deec9920$d83c073e@leanet>
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>>On Fri, 11 Aug 2000, Andrew Ellis wrote:
>
>>
>> What do we actually mean by time travel. Its the old grandfather paradox.
>> It's going back in time in your own frame of reference.
>>
>> But anyway, provided we have a universal hard limiting velocity (C) there
is
>> no time travel as would be recognised by individuals. Imagine time travel
in
>> the same way as the twin paradox. In the usual statement of the twin
>> paradox, one twin ages more rapidly than the other and they are different
>> ages when they meet .....his article suggests that it could. Of course,
>> if time travel is allowed, FTL travel follows naturally, but not the
other
>> way around.
>
>I'm having some difficulty in following this analysis. This may be because
>it refers to some text with which I'm unfamiliar, or because it's not
>couched in standard relativistic terminology, or because I'm very drunk.
Iain, the text you pasted was hardly an analysis, just a discussion of what
is traditionally meant by time travel. If you'd had a drink I'll forgive
you. You do however, manage to agree the main point in saying...
>
>It is not, however, clear to me that FTL travel alone suffices for a given
>observer to travel into his own past light cone. In that respect, issues
>such as the grandfather paradox need not arise,
but I don't follow the definition and statement do not really lead to your
conclusion.
>and FTL travel appears to
>be a limited form of time travel.
Perhaps my definition of time travel is not universally accepted.
Now, causality.
>It is quite clear, from the most elementary spacetime diagram, than a
>superluminal velocity allows a causal connection between events separated
>by a spacelike interval. This interval can be transformed into any other
>spacelike interval by the Lorentz transformation. In particular, one can
>choose a Lorentz transformation such that the second event occurs at an
>earlier time than the first. Thus, FTL travel implies time travel.
>
Firstly, standard relativity does not allow causality violation for events
which fall within each others past and future light cones, so there is
something slightly wrong with the argument as presented.
You are clearly hung up on the superluminal velocity thing. The whole
spacetime argument does not depend on it being the speed of light being the
limiting velocity, just that there IS a limiting velocity. This is an
important point. Please stop and understand it. The velocity of light has no
special property in a space time diagram other than being the limiting
velocity we have chosen to use.
You have two choices
1) You allow some things to travel FTL, and not others, in particular
messages can travel FTL. So then if an event falls outside the future and
past cones of an observer who is restricted to light speed, he can breach
causality by sending a FTL message to another observer for whom the event is
in his future cone. The FTL message actually leaves his future cone in order
to do this. The first observer then observes the consequences of the event
at some time in the future, having influenced that event. This is the
situation that is described in the article and imagined by yourself, and
leads to the possibility of causality violation, but not my definition of
time travel. It is aged that if an event falls within the future or past
cone of an observer, there is no possibility of causality violation, no
matter how many Lorentz transforms you carry out.
2) You allow particles, people and messages all to travel up to the same
limiting velocity (C). Instead of using the velocity of light (c) to define
an observers future and past light cones (or future and past cones for
simplicity), we use the new limiting velocity C. Now, in the degenerate case
that C = c, we basically have the universe as we know it (everything is
limited to the speed of light), with no breach of causality. Events within
the future cone can be influenced by the observer, events in the past cone
can have influence the observer, but events outside the two cones are
independent of the observer. Now, imagine an event outside the future cone
of an observer. By argument (1) you can get a violation of causality if a
message is transmitted to the event at a velocity vm > c. However, in this
case, in order for the message to reach the event, we need to gradually
increase the actual limiting velocity of our universe such that C > vm. That
is, in order for the message to reach the event, it must lie within the new
future cone as defined by velocity c, and as we all know from relativity, if
all objects and messages are constrained to move within their future cones,
there can be no violation of causality.
So. Either (1) messages can travel FTL, and other things cannot, in which
case you can get causality violation in certain special circumstances.
Or, (2) everything can travel FTL, in which case you do not get causality
violation.
In the absence of experimental evidence you are actually free to select
whichever theory you prefer, and make concrete predictions from your theory,
which may be tested experimentally. However, it is usual to select the most
likely theory or the simplest (there is a current implicit assumption that
these are one and the same, but this is not a fundamental physical law), and
I would argue that the second theory is more likely, since it automatically
precludes nasty things like causality violation.
So the answer to the original question is that
FTL travel does not *necessarily* imply that time travel or causality
violation is possible. However, it is easy to imagine a case where
causality violation may occur without grandfather paradox type time travel
being allowed. Furthermore, if you allow time travel, FTL travel follows
naturally.
So basically, you can have it which ever way you like, but you need to be
clear on the background technobabble, since to get causality violation
without explicit time travel into your own past, you need to restrict some
objects to a light cone defined by c, but messages to a greater lightcone
defined by C.
Of course, the spacetime diagram / future cone thing is just one aspect of
the problem, what about the transition from infinite positive energy to
infinite negative energy during the instant you "smoothly" accelerate
through light speed. etc etc.
Gnog
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 21:18:10 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Non fan haiku
Message-ID: <LAW-F30kP79MTuf5NXt0000721a@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
<This was written by my friend Ian, who isn't a fan, and has seen only 2 1/2
episodes.>
<grin> he *must* have dozed off early ... from the moment he appears on
screen, Brian is a leeetle hard to miss ... (suddenly struck by the idea of
*Vargas* joining the crew on a permanent basis ...)
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Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 08:58:29 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Re: [B7L] See how in limericks 'Blake's 7' is suddenly somehoweven more tacky
Message-ID: <F21DGuF69SDRpLwg6Z900007e76@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
>Awake, for distorts in the dome of night
>Have warped the core and set the stars to flight
>And lo! the paradox of time hath caught
>The fleeing space ship in a cone of light
<applause>
Regards
Joanne
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