From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se
Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #23
X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
X-Mailing-List: <blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se> archive/volume00/23
Precedence: list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------"
To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
------------------------------
Content-Type: text/plain
blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 23
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] History
Re: [B7L] The TRUTH abaout Travis
[B7L] Plague (was Killer)
Re: [B7L] History
[B7L] Remove
Re: [B7L] Remove
Re: [B7L] Computer animated piccies
Re: Star One/Stardrive (was Re: [B7L] History)
Re: [B7L] Remove
Re: Re: [B7L] Remove
Re: Re: [B7L] Remove
Re: [B7L] Remove
Re: Star One/Stardrive (was Re: [B7L] History)
Re: [B7L] Brainwashing (was Mental health & Governments)
Re: Re: [B7L] Remove
[B7L] History (and morality)
Re: Re: [B7L] Remove
Re: [B7L] Capchered agane
Re: [B7L] Capchered agane
Fw: [B7L] Capchered agane
[B7L] History
Re: [B7L] Capchered agane
Re: Fw: [B7L] Capchered agane
Re: [B7L] Capchered agane
Re: [B7L] History (and morality)
Re: [B7L] History
Re: [B7L] brainwashing (was Mental health & Governments)
[B7L] What a total Burke!
[B7L] Re: Sheelagh's B7 Tapes
Re: [B7L] Remove
Re: [B7L] Remove
Re: [B7L] History
Re: [B7L] History
Re: [B7L] History
[B7L] bye for now
[B7L] getting off the list
Re: [B7L] History
Re: Fw: [B7L] Capchered agane
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:41:38 -0000
From: Alison Page <alison_page@becta.org.uk>
To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] History
Message-ID: <21B0197931E1D211A26E0008C79F6C4A60C07B@BRAMLEY>
Content-Type: text/plain
Sally said -
>>Ooooh, not only history, but historical semantics, now. I do agree with
Una (yes, I can hear you all falling off your chairs in shock) but it raises
an interesting (well, to me) point - when and how does rebellion *become*
civil war *become* revolution? (The latter, presumably, if it succeeds). The
one point we all seem to have argued towards is that, in the B7 universe,
there is *no* legitimate authority (if there was in the Federation, it has
died. If there was on the individual planets, it has been usurped.) Had
Blake's rebellion become a revolution, where would legitimacy have lain
then? Does the different title make a difference as to the legitimacy of
their actions? And who decides - and when - where the semantic boundaries
lie?<<
And this to me exposes the whole problem with rule-based morality, it
rapidly descends into absurdity, because real life doesn't fall into neat
categories.
To me - and I know many people will feel very differently - trying to define
'good' and 'bad' in rigid ways is nothing more than a buffer against
anxiety. You try (I mean 'one tries') to assure yourself that you are doing
the 'right thing' by trying to tie down exactly what is right and wrong,
what is true and false. And the more objective-seeming that definition is,
the better.
I don't think there is any such firm foundation to be had. People simply
bumble along. I certainly wouldn't stick to some rule I had thought up
earlier if it made me do something I felt was wrong. I certainly wouldn't
(let's say I was on the Liberator) betray my colleagues because of some
prior definition of what was a 'justified' rebellion, or a 'legitimate
authority'. No way.
Words are just something made up by people. As Humpty-Dumpty said on the
subject of semantics ' The question is - who is to be master' And I notice
that Alice was unable to disagree with him :-)
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:49:04 -0000
From: "Deborah Day" <d.day@ukgateway.net>
To: "blakes7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] The TRUTH abaout Travis
Message-ID: <00c701bf6661$048be0c0$8584bc3e@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Yet another brilliant instalment. How many more does Neil have up his
sleeve? (Glad to see he hasn't been wasting his time with anything serious
lately!) Molesworth and B7 go together wonderfully - my husband has no time
for B7, but has been reading these posts avidly.
Keep 'em coming Neil.
Debbie Day.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:00:16 -0700
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Plague (was Killer)
Message-ID: <20000124.100020.11990.0.Rilliara@juno.com>
For what it's worth, the first science fiction plague story was written
by Mary Shelley (this is easy dating if you accept the theory that says
Frankenstein was the first science fiction novel). Since it's called The
Last Man, you can pretty much guess how it ends.
Anyhow, plague stories are nothing new, but AIDS era stories vary from
the ones of the few decades before (penicillin era) by having less
optimism of a cure. Killer was darker than many, but finding the cure was
still taken as a given in the ep. The concern was finding it in time.
Ellynne
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:18:19 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "B7 List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] History
Message-ID: <0d7f01bf668f$0c435900$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Me/Mistral:
> > Yet Avon never manages
> > to develop the intellectual courage to enable him to make decisions that
> > will affect 'many, many people' in order to counter a perceived evil, as
> > Blake did.
>
> Really? Are you discounting his decision at Helotrix that getting
> information that might protect both Scorpio's crew and many other
> planets was more important than getting involved in the fight for
> Helotrix?
Ooh, I should imagine I'm discounting that one on the grounds that it
probably doesn't fit my facts and I haven't seen 'Traitor' in ages.
> Or his efforts to form a league of non-aligned worlds
> in order that they might help protect each other? Those decisions
> affected 'many, many people'--they just didn't overstep his
> authority. (Not that I think he cared about that, mind you. I just
> think it goes with the natural detachment of his personality type,
> coupled with his experiences.)
I think you've just made the point that I was making: Avon doesn't do these
things because he's tussling in his mind over the rights and wrongs of
resistance, the limits of his personal authority, and whether he has the
right to fight - he does these things because he decides they're the best
way for him to survive. (Although personally I think it's a little
implausible that Avon would decide that bringing down the Federation is the
surest way to keep alive: 'I know, I'll just take on the mighty war machine
that is the most powerful force in the galaxy! That'll keep me safe!' but
that's the fourth season for you. Although I do like the fact that Avon is
basically *crap* at being the leader of a rebellion.)
I think that the fact that these decisions *do* affect 'many many people' as
well as him is mostly incidental.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:41:27 -0500
From: "Jim Mooney" <jim.mooney@city.mississauga.on.ca>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Remove
Message-Id: <00Jan24.124128est.115209@cmisint1.city.mississauga.on.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Please remove me from your mailing list.
Though I enjoyed the series, I'm afraid that I find the banter from this newsgroup to be boring.
Thank you.
>>> <blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se> 2000/01/20 9:40:04 pm >>>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:08:56 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Remove
Message-ID: <0dd801bf6696$16795080$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: Jim Mooney <jim.mooney@city.mississauga.on.ca>
> Please remove me from your mailing list.
>
> Though I enjoyed the series, I'm afraid that I find the banter from this
newsgroup to be boring.
>
> Thank you.
Cripes - that's us told!
Never mind, troops, I think you're all super-fascinating and mind-bogglingly
brilliant individuals who engage in a constant and life-affirming stream of
witty repartee and can I now claim my five pounds?
Jim, you might want to try 'uns*bscribe' rather than 'remove'.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:11:58 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Computer animated piccies
Message-ID: <000201bf669a$1e07fd20$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Una wrote:
> I just had this site brought to my attention:
>
> http://members.tripod.co.uk/aDziE/album.html
>
> which is a number of computer generated images of the Liberator in a
variety
> of scenes. I think it's rather fab.
>
Much as it pane me to admit she is ... er ... Much as it pains me to admit
it, she is right. There are some cracking images on this sight, though I
couldn't get some of them to download.
How do these people do it? I had a go at building a Liberator with
Asymetrix 3df/x (PC Format coverdisc giveaway) and decided it was going to
be too much like Bloody Hard Work. No way could I ever hope to match
adzie's standard. Yummy!
Neil
"The only good alien is a dead alien" - Ursula LeGuin
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:25:25 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Star One/Stardrive (was Re: [B7L] History)
Message-ID: <09SuUIAl7Gj4EwFe@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <388B775D.92B64155@ptinet.net>, mistral@ptinet.net writes
>Well, I'd have said he was saving five; it was the plasma bolt that
>would have killed six.
And this is part of the difference in how we see Star One - to me
choosing not to take an action is itself an action. I think that someone
who deliberately opts not to act has to take responsibility for the
consequences of not acting just as they would have to take
responsibility for the consequences of any other course of action.
If Blake, knowing that destroying Star One was the best and possibly the
only chance of destroying the Federation, turned away from the
opportunity to do so, he would be taking on a small share of complicity
in the crimes of the Federation - and those crimes are monstrous.
He does not have other options. He has tried the peaceful protest route,
as have others, and it does not work. The long slow grind might work,
eventually, but that will cause a great deal of death and destruction as
well, and there will be drugged slavery for many people for a good deal
longer.
As for taking over Star One: if he uses it for blackmail, well, does
that make him any better than the Federation; if he tries sitting tight
for long enough that people have adequate warning to switch to other
systems, he might find that he has company. Travis has the location to
Star One, and Blake has no idea what Travis intends to do with that
information - he might well sell it back to the Federation.
And as Blake says in that "Get thee behind me, Satan" scene, that much
power would tempt anyone. He doesn't trust himself with it any more than
he would trust Servalan with it.
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:36:43 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.jones@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Remove
Message-ID: <kSVavdA7uJj4EwVl@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <00Jan24.124128est.115209@cmisint1.city.mississauga.on.ca>,
Jim Mooney <jim.mooney@city.mississauga.on.ca> writes
>Please remove me from your mailing list.
Use the uns*bscribe word in the subject, not remove.
>
>Though I enjoyed the series, I'm afraid that I find the banter from this
>newsgroup to be boring.
Er, it's not a newsgroup...
Egad, and we'd been doing some seriously heavy stuff on legitimacy of
governments etc... Good thing we hadn't been doing a round of "Is that
all Darrow in those red leather trousers".
Jim, if you're still here - what did you actually expect to find?
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:06:07 EST
From: KKrause658@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Re: [B7L] Remove
Message-ID: <64.2eb801.25bdfc9f@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Julia Jones wrote<< Er, it's not a newsgroup...
Egad, and we'd been doing some seriously heavy stuff on legitimacy of
governments etc... Good thing we hadn't been doing a round of "Is that
all Darrow in those red leather trousers".
Jim, if you're still here - what did you actually expect to find?>>
Gee!!! As a newbie I was getting really interested in the different
discussions! The only reason I didn't get into them was by the time I
thought of a rejoinder(SP?) someone had got there before me! I liked the
serious along with the totally "out there" <g> of course, I was at first
worried when I read Neil's "Avon diaries." But luckily, I'm found out it was
a pastiche and not something seriously wrong with Neil. (Well, I am new to
this list.)
Since My reply to all seems to work, I might be able to join in more often.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:30:24 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Re: [B7L] Remove
Message-ID: <0ed701bf66a1$7897b800$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: <KKrause658@aol.com>
> I was at first
> worried when I read Neil's "Avon diaries." But luckily, I'm found out it
was
> a pastiche and not something seriously wrong with Neil.
Oh boy, I'm chortling at this end and restraining myself nobly from
responding, as I'm sure you can imagine! ;)
Welcome aboard! I'm very glad you've chosen to brave that first post - but
you didn't put your name?
Una
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:58:55 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Remove
Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000124145803.00d72810@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
KKrause658@aol.com wrote:
>But luckily, I'm found out it was a pastiche and not something seriously
>wrong with Neil.
Those are not necessarily mutually exclusive propositions, you know.
- Lisa
--
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
From Eroica With Love: http://eroica.simplenet.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:12:52 -0000
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Star One/Stardrive (was Re: [B7L] History)
Message-ID: <00c801bf66b2$80254040$72ac01d5@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
The thread started talking about Avon "killing" Dr Plaxton in the episode
Stardrive.
>>Well, I'd have said he was saving five; it was the plasma bolt that
>>would have killed six.
>
Julia Jones then said....
>And this is part of the difference in how we see Star One - to me
>choosing not to take an action is itself an action. I think that someone
>who deliberately opts not to act has to take responsibility for the
>consequences of not acting just as they would have to take
>responsibility for the consequences of any other course of action.
Exactly so. Indeed although it availed him little in the end, the defence
offered by Thomas Moore in the play "A man for all seasons" was that "The
maxim of the law is that silence gives consent".
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:25:12 -0000
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Brainwashing (was Mental health & Governments)
Message-ID: <00c901bf66b2$8185baa0$72ac01d5@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>"Andrew Ellis" wrote:
>: Anybody fancy watching all 17 episodes of "The Prisoner" again to add
>: another SF dimension to this debate ?
Claudia Mastroianni replied....
>
>Ha! Just did this earlier this month... almost exactly five years
>after the *last* time I watched the whole series. Both times were
>marathon viewings... I know some sick people. ;-)
>
Congratulations. OT. Have you ever tried watching just the 9 or so "core"
episodes that were not (elegedly) just padding for the networks ?
>The difficulty is, I'm much more inclined to take The Prisoner
allegorically
>than to read anything it says about brainwashing terribly literally.
>What did you have in mind?
>
Having just put away Collins Concise...... isn't all SciFi meant to be
taken allegorically, especially the reflections / amplifications of
political systems, mind control etc, made more palatable to the viewer by
some unreasonable scientific premise such as teleport and FTL travel ? (or
removal of spies to some remote village where everybody agrees to be called
by numbers).
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:42:34 EST
From: KKrause658@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Re: [B7L] Remove
Message-ID: <86.57bb58.25be214a@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<<Welcome aboard! I'm very glad you've chosen to brave that first post - but
you didn't put your name?
Una>>
Uh, are you kidding? maybe later <g> when this has died down. But until
then I can be recognized as the one with her mouth wide open and her eyes
wide shut, blindly going into the heat of battle! I'm not going into battle
of wits against Neil only half armed!
Note to self: REALLY read over bulletins before posting!
------------------------------------------------
Oh heck why not, we're among friends(?)
Karen
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:50:12 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] History (and morality)
Message-ID: <388CD725.5E0B@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Edmund Burke - 'It is necessary only for the good man to do nothing, for evil to
> triumph.'
I've always found this quote a little unsettling.
Edmund Burke was friends with Thomas Paine and a member of Parliment.
That same Parliment put a death sentence on Thomas Paine's head. Why?
Trying to use free speech. He asserted that England's interest in
declaring war on Revolutionary France was not due to their suddenly love
of the French Pre-revolution government, whom England had never been on
good terms with, but rather, an economic interest-- many of the members
of Parliment had ownership in companies that stood to make large profits
from gearing up for war.
Burke apparently proved his statement. While he himself appears to have
been genuinely appalled by the deaths of innocents under the Terror,
what did he do to defend his friend's right to voice his views?
Obligatory B7 reference.
In contrast, Blake allowed Avon to counter and contradict his own ideas.
And, had they been at a big rebel meeting and Avon's mouth angered the
others, I'm sure Blake would have defended Avon with his own self if he
had to. Right?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:18:00 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Re: [B7L] Remove
Message-ID: <0f7101bf66b8$e2b8f110$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Karen!
> <<Welcome aboard! I'm very glad you've chosen to brave that first post -
but
> you didn't put your name?
>
> Una>>
>
> Uh, are you kidding? maybe later <g> when this has died down.
I'm afraid this is as calm as it gets!
> But until then I can be recognized as the one with her mouth wide open and
her eyes
> wide shut, blindly going into the heat of battle! I'm not going into
battle
> of wits against Neil only half armed!
>
> Note to self: REALLY read over bulletins before posting!
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> Oh heck why not, we're among friends(?)
Or as near as damn it.
I'll leave it to someone else to do the tortuous pun on arms, half-witted
and Neil, because I'm trying to be nice to him.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:17:42 EST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Capchered agane
Message-ID: <20000124221742.27139.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
>But if you can get hold of the books, they're disturbingly similar to
>Neil's
>versions. I think the same authors perpetrated '1066 and all that' which is
>a classic text on history.
Hands ought to be thrown at you, Una (yes, I know, and I've been reading
Corpse Marker recently, too!). Another double-act altogether perpetrated
1066 and all that (and its sequel And now all this), Seller and Yeatman.
But then <grin> History is what you remember...
Regards
Joanne
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:21:32 EST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Capchered agane
Message-ID: <20000124222132.96431.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
>I assure you, Neil has the pastiche perfectly. I have to admit I never
>thought of Avon as Molesworth, but he is *so* appropriate:-)
Er, because he's an interplanetary clot?
Regards
Joanne
(moving away rapidly before Julia the mad maths mistress can muster her
rhomboids)
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:34:30 -0000
From: "kerry.hale" <kerry.hale@zoom.co.uk>
To: "Lysator List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Fw: [B7L] Capchered agane
Message-ID: <000d01bf66bb$546b5120$a2c628c3@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
----- Original Message -----
From: kerry.hale <kerry.hale@zoom.co.uk>
To: Una McCormack <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: [B7L] Capchered agane
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Una McCormack <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
> To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 8:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [B7L] Capchered agane
>
>
> >
> > Penny wrote:
> >
> > > At 03:34 PM 23/01/00 -0700, Helen Krummenacker wrote:
> > >
> > > >BTW< I have no idea what these are based on
> > >
> > > Oh joy! I thought that (as with the last one...or three...) perhaps I
> was
> > > the only one in the whole wide world who didn't get the joke!
> >
> > This should help a little:
> > http://www.digiserve.com/mike/html/molesworth.html
> >
> > But if you can get hold of the books, they're disturbingly similar to
> Neil's
> > versions. I think the same authors perpetrated '1066 and all that' which
> is
> > a classic text on history.
> >
> >
> > Una
> > ---
> > Please do not throw hands at me.
> >
> The Molesworth books seem very English to me so that I can't imagine that
> anyone brought up in a non-English background would appreciate the suptle
> humer.
> 1066 and all that (again very English) wasn't written by the same pair but
> has the same Public School background. It's main tenet is that "History is
> not what you thought, it's what you can remember". (That's the B7 link)
>
> Kerry
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:32:35 -0000
From: "Jonathan Coupe" <jonathan@meanwhile.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] History
Message-ID: <008001bf66ba$ea0e0200$4b2c893e@freeserve.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Una wrote:
> Yet Avon never manages
> to develop the intellectual courage to enable him to make decisions that
> will affect 'many, many people' in order to counter a perceived evil, as
> Blake did.
Oh, but he does. He decided to risk the future of the entire human race to
keep the Muller robot intact, despite the advice of Orac. Of course the fact
that Tarrant disagreed probably gave him a comfidence boost...
Jonathan
PS Did anyone notice that there was a competitor called "Orac's Revenge" in
last weeks's Robot Wars? (A sort of televised gladiator contest for home
built robots shown on BBC2.)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:59:37 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Capchered agane
Message-ID: <629dmLBZlNj4Ew1h@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <20000124222132.96431.qmail@hotmail.com>, Joanne MacQueen
<j_macqueen@hotmail.com> writes
>(moving away rapidly before Julia the mad maths mistress can muster her
>rhomboids)
Don't see what you're panicking about. I have never hidden the fact that
I think that Avon occasionally needs a swift kick up his delectable
little backside.
Not so much the clot bit, just the general dyspeptic air...
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:00:48 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: Lysator List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Fw: [B7L] Capchered agane
Message-ID: <4mTdCMBgmNj4EwVl@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <000d01bf66bb$546b5120$a2c628c3@default>, kerry.hale
<kerry.hale@zoom.co.uk> writes
>> The Molesworth books seem very English to me so that I can't imagine that
>> anyone brought up in a non-English background would appreciate the suptle
>> humer.
You imagine incorrectly...
--
Julia Jones
"Have you ever had a fist in your mouth?"
"Not in my mouth, no..."
Soldiers of Love Part 1
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:41:11 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Capchered agane
Message-ID: <0fce01bf66c0$62a15f00$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joanne and Kerry enlightened me:
> >From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
> >But if you can get hold of the books, they're disturbingly similar to
Neil's
> >versions. I think the same authors perpetrated '1066 and all that' which
is
> >a classic text on history.
>
> Hands ought to be thrown at you, Una (yes, I know, and I've been reading
> Corpse Marker recently, too!). Another double-act altogether perpetrated
> 1066 and all that (and its sequel And now all this), Seller and Yeatman.
<Courteous nod> Thank you, ladies. Was it the same cartoonist? Why do I have
these so firmly associated in my mind?
> But then <grin> History is what you remember...
Hey - I worked that one out years ago!
Una
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:13:45 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] History (and morality)
Message-ID: <0fef01bf66c0$aeb64cc0$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Helen Krummenacker wrote:
> > Edmund Burke - 'It is necessary only for the good man to do nothing, for
evil to
> > triumph.'
> I've always found this quote a little unsettling.
And I was tickled to see Burke quoted in the context of justifying
rebellion.
> Edmund Burke was friends with Thomas Paine and a member of Parliment.
> That same Parliment put a death sentence on Thomas Paine's head. Why?
> Trying to use free speech. He asserted that England's interest in
> declaring war on Revolutionary France was not due to their suddenly love
> of the French Pre-revolution government, whom England had never been on
> good terms with, but rather, an economic interest-- many of the members
> of Parliment had ownership in companies that stood to make large profits
> from gearing up for war.
> Burke apparently proved his statement. While he himself appears to have
> been genuinely appalled by the deaths of innocents under the Terror,
> what did he do to defend his friend's right to voice his views?
Again, not my period of history, but when did that ever stop me indulging in
innuendoes, half-truths, and bald-faced lies, to paraphrase Mr Garak? :)
I don't know whether Burke and Paine were friends, so I can't comment on
whether there was a personal issue between them. I understand that Paine was
charged with sedition, and that he was ultimately outlawed, but I was not
aware of a death sentence being passed on him - presumably once he was
outlawed he would be subject to the death penalty if he returned to England?
I think that I find it a little anachronistic to talk of 'the right to free
speech' in terms of late 18th century England, although it's a period in
which many people are saying very radical things, and it's a period in which
journalism is perhaps more sophisticated than ever before. But you're also
talking about a period in which rights theory is only starting to emerge and
become formalized. Regardless of the theoretical innovations that are
emerging in the US, I should imagine that 'free speech' in England, at
least, would have been considered a rather fringe and dangerous idea at the
time (again, not a specialist subject - if anyone has done their PhD in the
development of the concept of 'free speech' in English society, 1750-1810,
then I will happily learn more about it). I wonder whether Paine *did* have
the right to speak, in a legal sense, which is presumably what led to his
being found guilty of sedition. (Please note! Not saying this is a *good
thing*, simply trying to contextualize people's actions and beliefs
according to their own society and not our own.)
Edmund Burke's primary passion was for tradition and the rule of law, and he
passionately despised the type of radicalism which was emerging in the wake
of the French Revolution and which he perceived threatened the stability of
society, and which was espoused by Paine, Price, Wollstonecraft et al. (this
is why I find it difficult to believe that Burke and Paine were close
friends, but I don't know the biographies of the two men in any detail, so
I'm prepared to stand corrected. Wollstonecraft, at least, loathed Burke).
It's important to remember just how shocking Burke found the events and
ramifications of the French Revolution (I think it goes well, well beyond
'genuinely appalled'), and how profoundly he believed it threatened what he
perceived to be 'the natural order' of society and tradition.
In this context, I should imagine that Burke's exhortation for good men not
to stand by is to encourage them to rally against radicalism and revolution
and protect their traditions and the rule of law. Which he did, repeatedly,
throughout his career.
Paine is a coda in English political theory, although I do appreciate that
his stature is considerably greater in American political theory. Burke
remains one of the key authors on English conservatism right up to the
present day. Both men passionately believed in what they said, but I also
think that *both* men managed to remain self-consistent to their own
beliefs, insofar as anyone does.
> Obligatory B7 reference.
Yeah, I'd better get to that too!
> In contrast, Blake allowed Avon to counter and contradict his own ideas.
> And, had they been at a big rebel meeting and Avon's mouth angered the
> others, I'm sure Blake would have defended Avon with his own self if he
> had to. Right?
I'd probably see Avon more in the Burke role and Blake in the Paine role,
myself :)
Una
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:19:27 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] History
Message-ID: <101001bf66c1$776740c0$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jonathan wrote:
> Una wrote:
>
> > Yet Avon never manages
> > to develop the intellectual courage to enable him to make decisions that
> > will affect 'many, many people' in order to counter a perceived evil, as
> > Blake did.
>
> Oh, but he does. He decided to risk the future of the entire human race to
> keep the Muller robot intact, despite the advice of Orac. Of course the
fact
> that Tarrant disagreed probably gave him a comfidence boost...
<Note to self - remember always to clarify statements with 'perhaps' or 'it
could be argued that' or 'one way of characterizing the situation is'...>
Although I do think there's a difference between taking an action which you
know for certain *will* harm 'many many people' (e.g. Blake and Star One)
and pursuing a course which has the potential to harm said 'many many
people' (TM) (e.g. keeping a robot about which might, possibly, at some
point go bonkers and try to take over the universe).
Did I mention I'd trademarked the phrase 'many many people'? You all have to
pay me a fiver everytime you use it from now on. Actually, I was thinking of
looking into the possibility of retroactive charges, so this whole debate
may have proved very profitable for me.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:39:12 -0700
From: Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@powersurfr.com>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] brainwashing (was Mental health & Governments)
Message-Id: <4.1.20000124161447.0093ac90@mail.powersurfr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 04:15 PM 23/01/00 +0000, Alison Page wrote:
>There's some stuff in William Burroughs about all this.
In our next 'pastiche', Blake and pals visit Enozretni-13, the
Not-So-Secret Planet of the Milk-Fed Space-Cadets. Nauseating hijinks
aplenty ensue! Sadly it all ends badly when Avon attempts to impress Vila
by shooting a glass of Adrenaline-and-Soma(tm) off of Blake's head from the
other side of the flight deck, while blindfolded and falling-down drunk. He
takes careful aim and is about to fire when suddenly, boom, they are all
hit by a big truck. John Waters directs.
--
For A Dread Time, Call Penny:
http://members.tripod.com/~Penny_Dreadful/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:37:18 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] What a total Burke!
Message-ID: <104701bf66c3$f5d8b860$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Incidentally, re: Burke - I've spotted my first historical gaffe. I
constantly refer to England and the English - Burke was, of course, an
Irishman.
Big bag of sweeties to anyone who comes up with Five Great Historical
Inaccuracies in my last post, not including that one.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:40:10 -0800
From: Susie Wright <piscescat@home.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Sheelagh's B7 Tapes
Message-ID: <388D0D0A.ECD00395@home.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sorry, it'll be more like May or June... she said "late spring 2000." Still....hooray!
Susie
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:53:21 -0600
From: "huh" <huh@ccm.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Remove
Message-ID: <00f001bf66df$579cd7a0$1d64e0d1@huh>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
)
> Cripes - that's us told!
>
> Never mind, troops, I think you're all super-fascinating and
mind-bogglingly
> brilliant individuals who engage in a constant and life-affirming stream
of
> witty repartee and can I now claim my five pounds?
>
> Jim, you might want to try 'uns*bscribe' rather than 'remove'.
>
>
> Una
Ah, but then he wouldn't have been able to get in the zinger about how
boring we are.Makes all the difference in the world, really. Although I
don't post, I do in fact think that you're all super-fascinating and
mind-bogglingly brilliant individuals, etc... or at least remarkably witty
much of the time.
lisabeth
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:15:26 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Remove
Message-ID: <388D154D.4BC16A60@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
huh wrote:
> Although I
> don't post, I do in fact think that you're all super-fascinating and
> mind-bogglingly brilliant individuals, etc... or at least remarkably witty
> much of the time.
And we all think the same, lisabeth.
Ooh. No! No! What I mean to say is, we all think the same of *you*.
Mistral ;-)
--
"Who do you serve? And who do you trust?"
--Galen, 'Crusade'
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:48:20 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] History
Message-ID: <388CF2D3.615526C7@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Una wrote (re Avon):
> I think that the fact that these decisions *do* affect 'many many people' as
> well as him is mostly incidental.
Sure, Una. Must be the cynic in me that thinks that's true of
Blake as well <g>.
Mistral
--
"Who do you serve? And who do you trust?"
--Galen, 'Crusade'
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 06:23:20 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "B7 List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] History
Message-ID: <10ed01bf66fc$aed687b0$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mistral wrote:
> Una wrote (re Avon):
>
> > I think that the fact that these decisions *do* affect 'many many
people' as
> > well as him is mostly incidental.
>
> Sure, Una. Must be the cynic in me that thinks that's true of
> Blake as well <g>.
Oh, I think Blake chooses to make decisions on behalf of other people quite
intentionally.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:08:27 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] History
Message-ID: <388D4BEB.1ABDD7C5@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Una McCormack wrote:
> > > I think that the fact that these decisions *do* affect 'many many
> people' as
> > > well as him is mostly incidental.
> >
> > Sure, Una. Must be the cynic in me that thinks that's true of
> > Blake as well <g>.
>
> Oh, I think Blake chooses to make decisions on behalf of other people quite
> intentionally.
Ah. Yes. What I should have said, though, is that I don't think
his motives are as entirely altruistic as is sometimes represented,
particularly when discussing Star One. From Spacefall to Star One,
mostly what we hear from him strikes me more as vendetta.
Plus, of course, I don't in the least admire making decisions on
behalf of other people you're not responsible for. Whether Avon
avoids that particular gaffe because of self-restraint or selfishness
makes very little difference to me; and if that makes me as cold
as our favorite computer analyst, well, I'm in good company. It's
a pity I don't have some of his other admirable traits as well. ;-)
Mistral
--
"Who do you serve? And who do you trust?"
--Galen, 'Crusade'
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 07:19:57 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] bye for now
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0125071957-d07Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
I'm having to unsub for a while - the fingers are too painful to type any more.
I hope to be back when they recover.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:21:57 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] getting off the list
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0124222157-b07Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
for people who join the list and can't remember how to get off again, it may be
worth remembering that I always keep the instructions on my web site in the fan
clubs section.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:10:45 +0000 (GMT)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] History
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.1000125100938.17918A-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 24 Jan 2000, Una McCormack wrote:
> Did I mention I'd trademarked the phrase 'many many people'? You all have to
> pay me a fiver everytime you use it from now on. Actually, I was thinking of
> looking into the possibility of retroactive charges, so this whole debate
> may have proved very profitable for me.
Fair enough. By the way, did I mention I trademarked "Una" in 1985?
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 00:05:07 +1100
From: Joanne <calliste@bigpond.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Fw: [B7L] Capchered agane
Message-Id: <l03130302b4b34fa06237@[139.134.109.215]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>In message <000d01bf66bb$546b5120$a2c628c3@default>, kerry.hale
><kerry.hale@zoom.co.uk> writes
>>> The Molesworth books seem very English to me so that I can't imagine that
>>> anyone brought up in a non-English background would appreciate the suptle
>>> humer.
>
>You imagine incorrectly...
Definitely. I'm Australian and I've owned (and loved) the Molesworth and
St Trinian books for years. Very silly and extremely funny.
Joanne
‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚
Because I love it. It takes me to the stars, to the moon, on any journey I
can imagine. Any place but here ...
Cyrano de Bergerac
‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚ÄÄ
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #23
*************************************