From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #254 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: <blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se> archive/volume00/254 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 254 Today's Topics: [B7L] Re: Evidence of Religion [ Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com ] Re: [B7L] Mission to Destiny [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ] Re: Evidence of Religion (was Re: [B [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ] [B7L] Re: blakes7- religion [ Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net> ] Re: Evidence of Religion (was Re: [B [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ] Re: [B7L] Re: Sara = 54124 [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ] Re: [B7L] Re: Evidence of Religion [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ] [B7L] Re: Evidence of religion [ Tavia Chalcraft <tavia@btinternet.c ] Re [B7L] New zine - submissions want [ Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk> ] Re: [B7L] Monetary systems SF, fanta [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ] Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7- religion [ Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com ] [B7L] Jenna's Skills [ "Christine+Steve" <cgorman@idirect. ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 19:03:44 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com> To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: [B7L] Re: Evidence of Religion Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0908180344-bc8Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri 08 Sep, Kathryn Andersen wrote: > On Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 08:20:04AM +0100, Judith Proctor wrote: > > Having now drifted totally off topic, let's try and see if there's > > any evidence at all for the survival of any living religion in the > > Federation. > > > > I can only think of the fancy dress nun in Gambit - suggesting that > > the image might be recognised, but given Krantor's love of period > > costumes, that might not signify. > > There's also the usage of the word "hell", but again, that could > simply be cultural, rather than religious -- though if all religion is > banned, then one might have thought such a term would be suspect. It's amazing how long a word can linger on out of context, especially if it's a swear word. I was listening to a very interesting radio programme the other day (Routes of English) and they were talking about the way swear words either lose their impact over time or else develop socially acceptable alternatives. eg. Blimey and bloody both derive from 'By our Lady' or 'By Lady Mary'. My favourite was 'fiddlesticks' which if one thinks about it, once had a much cruder meaning. Did you know that the words rabbit and donkey entered the language because coney sounded a little too like a four letter word beginning with C and ass had similar problems. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 18:58:23 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net> To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Mission to Destiny Message-ID: <009301c019eb$f52622a0$20694e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Replying to Sally: >It's just a > flash of inspiration (on seeing the instrument in the filter plant) that > gives it to him. Don't forget that we're accustomed to cell phones and beepers, at one extreme, and Agatha Christie at the other, so it seems much dumber to take that long to figure it out that it would be for someone conversant with both. > > I'm with Judith on Blake and the Ortega - the Liberator was weak at that > minute, Sara and her accomplices were unlikely to sit back and watch them > swan off with the priceless McGuffin without a fight. I see it as a > preemptive strike. But didn't anyone regret the loss of a perfectly good ship? For that matter, was Travis subject to a payroll deduction order for killing a presumably expensive Blake clone? -(Y) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 19:04:13 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net> To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: Evidence of Religion (was Re: [B7L] Re: Sara = 54124) Message-ID: <009401c019eb$fcb679c0$20694e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathryn Andersen said: > > Note that most of these are variations on "what the hell" so they > could well be dismissed as linguistic remnants. > However, Vila refers to Hell as a place, and so do Servalan and Avon. When the convicts get to Cygnus Alpha, they seem reasonably conversant with concepts like worship and ritual. In Rescue, instead of telling everyone else to go away, Avon says he will seek out his own "salvation." Actually I'd kind of put it the other way--that the only CONTRARY evidence is in PressurePoint, when Blake explains to Gan what a "church" used to be. -(Y) (who has written several stories positing that the Catholic Church has survived in some form, and that Avon's address book includes churches among other places he isn't supposed to turn up) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 18:29:12 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7- religion Message-ID: <39B99267.5DB5@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Servalan: Go to hell, Avon. > Avon: Probably. (Blake's 7: Rumours of Death [C8]) > This would indicate the concept of it as a destiny for the wicked is still around, as in religious sense (although whether believed in or not is another question). The others could simply indicate 'a bad place' as in when we say "Work was hell today". ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 20:30:22 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Evidence of Religion (was Re: [B7L] Re: Sara = 54124) Message-ID: <20000908.204007.-88763.2.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 8 Sep 2000 19:04:13 -0400 "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net> writes: > > (who has written several stories positing that the Catholic Church > has survived in some form, and that Avon's address book includes > churches among other places he isn't supposed to turn up) > Wait, wait, wait. Now I'm intrigued. What do you mean? Avon keeps lists of places he shouldn't show up? Why? Because it would hurt the image he's worked so hard to build up in the minds of everyone else (and does that mean he goes in disguise?), because he's not certain what a splash of holy water would do to him, or because of a joke I'm missing entirely? Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 20:29:56 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Sara = 54124 Message-ID: <20000908.204007.-88763.1.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 8 Sep 2000 08:20:04 +0100 (BST) Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com> writes: > > If I recall correctly, all Sikhs are called Singh as their last > name. It was a > conscious choice when the religion was founded. Thus you only have > to explain > Noonian and it might well be a name as traditional as John is for us > in Singh's > culture. Thanks, Judith. I didn't know that about the name Singh. He's the only other Noonian (I _think_) in Star Trek but that doesn't mean even the writers were thinking of it (or, worse, it may have been used by someone who was trying to think of a name from that area, used it, and never remembered where he'd heard of it before [how fleeting is fame]). Basially, pairing Noonian with Singh would not be as > controversial as > pairing Adolf with Hitler because of the surname being so > widespread. True. A historian once explained the lengthy career of one Joe McCarthy in the 19th century (a figure of minor importance in her field of study) and explained why he should _not_ be confused with another Joe McCarthy who also lived in the 19th century. It never occurred to her that anyone might here the name and think of a certain, infamous senator back in the 50's. (Unless > his parents thought the Khan was a hero of course - maybe the > android was an > attempt to create a perfect being instead of doing it by > eugenics...) Comments about who would be most likely to be a successful eugenic experiment on B7, who would be most likely to be an unsuccessful experiment, and who might simply be an android in poor (or not so poor) disguise come racing to mind but... I shall resist. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 20:40:05 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Evidence of Religion Message-ID: <20000908.204007.-88763.3.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 8 Sep 2000 19:03:44 +0100 (BST) Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com> writes: > On Fri 08 Sep, Kathryn Andersen wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 08, 2000 at 08:20:04AM +0100, Judith Proctor wrote: > > There's also the usage of the word "hell", but again, that could > > simply be cultural, rather than religious -- though if all > religion is > > banned, then one might have thought such a term would be suspect. > > It's amazing how long a word can linger on out of context, > > eg. Blimey and bloody both derive from 'By our Lady' or 'By Lady > Mary'. I'd heard 'blood of God' as the root for bloody, but I know what you mean. And what the heck does heck mean, anyway? However, when Servalan told Avon to go to hell and he said 'Probably,' the impact would have been greatly reduced if he wasn't familiar with the definition we all know and love. Dana wrote: > When the convicts get to Cygnus Alpha, they seem reasonably > conversant with concepts like worship and ritual. Maybe they thought it was the Lion's Club or a Fraternity? In Rescue, instead > of telling everyone else to go away, Avon says he will seek out his > own "salvation." Once again, _Avon_ is (ironically) the one who makes the clearest reference to religion. Hmm. Actually I'd kind of put it the other way--that the > only CONTRARY evidence is in PressurePoint, when Blake explains > to Gan what a "church" used to be. I don't know. The Federation seems very much the kind of regime that would discourage religion for a variety of reasons. There's also little to know evidence of religion playing any part in dayly life except for a few nonTerran 'primitives' (penal colonists and nonhumans [who, suspiciously, seem to share out identical chant CDs]). Also, when ethical arguments are made, religious belief never seems to be implied in any of them. Ellynne (who is not about to give up one of her most cherished stereotypes about the Federation without a fight but who admits that doesn't mean she may not just _possibly_ be less than completely right on this one) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 10:00:09 +0100 From: Tavia Chalcraft <tavia@btinternet.com> To: 'Lysator mailing list' <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: [B7L] Re: Evidence of religion Message-ID: <01C01A44.C01D5520.tavia@btinternet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vila's 'I'm in Hell and it's full of Avon's' suggests a certain knowledge of the possibility of an afterlife of punishment. However, none of this, Avon's salvation comment and the Go to Hell--Probably exchange make me believe that any of the conversationalists were actively religious, or that they believed what they said literally. It just suggests that the cultural reference still survives. For eg, I regularly use religious imagery in speech (and I don't just mean swearing) and it even creeps into my writing occasionally, without any active belief. It's merely a convenient set of references. Tavia --When the fire and the rose are one ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 14:25:26 GMT From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re [B7L] New zine - submissions wanted Message-Id: <200009091325.OAA10459@smtp.uk2net.com> Neil wrote: > (Usual guidelines apply, ie graphic sex/violence/strong language > permissible, but *no smut*. What's the difference? Would I be correct in thinking smut would be graphic sex calculated to arouse the reader and possibly tempt them in the direction of Onan? Love, Ika ---------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using http://uk2.net NEWS - CHEAPEST DEDICATED SERVERS IN THE WORLD - 29/month UK's FREE Domains, FREE Dialup, FREE Webdesign, FREE email ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 22:28:53 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net> To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Monetary systems SF, fantasy, etc Message-ID: <000601c01a6c$1b5f6280$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ellynne G. <rilliara@juno.com> > But the math nuts would always be pushing for something more efficient. > Hexidecimal, perhaps. Or how about a simple binary? I've actually had > it explained to me that a base monetary unit, a, with b being twice the > value of a, and c being twice the value of b, with d = a+b+c would be ten > times more efficient for making change. Thinking about this, I notice a 1-2-5 progression in monetary units. 1p-2p-5p, 10p-20p-50p, L1-L2-L5, L10-L20-L50. This strikes me as an elegant compromise between the efficiency of binary with the relative ease of thinking in decimal. Do other decimal coinages use the same progression? Neil ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 07:50:39 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com> To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7- religion Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0909065039-0b0Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Sat 09 Sep, Helen Krummenacker wrote: > > > > Servalan: Go to hell, Avon. > > Avon: Probably. (Blake's 7: Rumours of Death [C8]) > > > > This would indicate the concept of it as a destiny for the wicked is > still around, as in religious sense (although whether believed in or not > is another question). The others could simply indicate 'a bad place' as > in when we say "Work was hell today". But then the concept can linger long long after the belief and knowledge are gone. Who's familiar with the concept of putting a coin on the eyes of a corpse to 'pay the ferryman'. Think how old the religion that relates to is. Has anyone here ever said 'By Juiter!' or would at least understand what was meant? My personal take is that religion in the Federaton was banned at the start of the New CAlendar. That (by my dating system) means that religion has been surpressed for around two and a half centruries. That's long enough to drive it underground, but certainly not to kill it. Those who have only had a basic education and who have been exposed to Federation propaganda most of their lives (GAn) will know almost nothing of religion. Those who deal with the underground will probably know people in churches (Vila) and those with a good education in history (Blake and other Alphas) will also know the basic concepts of religion. JUdith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 20:41:18 -0400 From: "Christine+Steve" <cgorman@idirect.com> To: "B7 Mailing List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: [B7L] Jenna's Skills Message-ID: <00e701c01ac0$549a1140$dc0c9ad8@cgorman> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was watching Redemption last night - for the first time in well over a year - and noticed something about Jenna. I guess she's shown she's an excellent pilot from Breakdown, where she had to pilot the Liberator without any computer help. In Redemption, however, she shows hardly any combat tactical skills. During the attack by the Liberator style ships, she's basically doing what Blake tells her too. He runs the battle and determines the tactics. Maybe that's why she was captured during her smuggling days - outwitted by her opponent captain. I can't remember seeing her take the lead during a space battle, can anyone else? I also wondered where Blake himself would have picked up space battle techniques, unless his previous uprising took to space - but I doubt that actually happened. Steve Dobson. -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #254 **************************************