From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se
Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #284
X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
X-Mailing-List: <blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se> archive/volume00/284
Precedence: list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------"
To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
------------------------------
Content-Type: text/plain
blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 284
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones. ]
[B7L] Re: Fantsy vs SF As I've alrea [ Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones. ]
Re: [B7L] Food [ Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@comp ]
Re: [B7L] Food [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
[B7L] Christmas presents [ "Emma Peel" <emmapeel@calvino.frees ]
Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.con ]
Re: [B7L] Avon (was: Rumours of Deat [ "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary ]
Re: Community (was Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary ]
Re: [B7L] Food [ "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary ]
[B7L] Pacey web site updated [ Mac4781@aol.com ]
Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
Re: [B7L] Re:Avon & the kitchen [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
[B7L] Re: blakes7 and the kitchen [ Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net> ]
[B7L] Re: Avon & the kitchen [ Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net> ]
Re: [B7L] Re: Avon & the kitchen [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
Re: [B7L] Food [ Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@power ]
Re: Re [B7L] Fantasy, SF and all tha [ Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com ]
Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary ]
Re: Re [B7L] Fantasy, SF and all tha [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
Re: [B7L] Re: Avon & the kitchen [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
Re: Community (was Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ Iain Coleman <ijc@bas.ac.uk> ]
Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ Iain Coleman <ijc@bas.ac.uk> ]
Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ Tavia Chalcraft <tavia@btinternet.c ]
Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ Iain Coleman <ijc@bas.ac.uk> ]
FW: Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ Tavia Chalcraft <tavia@btinternet.c ]
Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ "Doraleen McArthur" <d.mcarthur@wor ]
Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ Jacqueline Thijsen <inquisitioner@w ]
Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ mistral@centurytel.net ]
Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ Tavia Chalcraft <tavia@btinternet.c ]
[B7L] Postings for soldiers [ Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape. ]
Re: [Re: [B7L] Food] [ Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape. ]
Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@comp ]
Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ Iain Coleman <ijc@bas.ac.uk> ]
Re: [B7L] Food [ "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl> ]
Re: [B7L] Postings for soldiers [ "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl> ]
Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones. ]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 22:53:57 +0100
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy
Message-ID: <89eomLB1zO45EwY1@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <003b01c03101$63ecb740$0d01a8c0@codex>, Una McCormack
<una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk> writes
>Strangely enough, I was having this conversation yesterday over lunch (with
>some scientists), and I said that I didn't think what I did could
>meaningfully be called science. I use some quite precise statistical tools
>to do some quite specific measuring (and I get software to do this for me
>now, altho' I used to do the maths on paper), but I quite specifically make
>no claims to generalizability or repeatability.
Which is one of the reasons I would classify it as science. You
recognise the limitations of the tools you are using (and I wish one or
two physical scientists I know were as careful about it as you appear to
be). I've seen some utter garbage using lots of lovely statistics to
masquerade as social "science", although I haven't had the pleasure of
reading "The Bell Curve" <evil grin>. 'Tis looking at a much more
slippery thing than I spend my days thinking about, but follows the same
principle of fitting theory to observed facts rather than the other way
around.
This is why religion may or may not be compatible with science - note
that some of the great historical science came from religion. Religion
can be a means of trying to explain observed fact, but it can also turn
into trying to force observed fact to fit with pre-conceived ideas - a
notable example being various episodes in the career of Galileo.
Dragging this back to Blake's 7... It is noticeable that totalitarian
societies tend to go in for some fairly nasty distortions of science in
pursuit of ideology, one well known example being the USSR's official
views on evolution. I wonder to what degree science in the Federation is
stagnating? It does appear that they have a talent for pissing off top
quality scientists, given the number in voluntary, or in Avon's case
involuntary, exile.
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 22:32:22 +0100
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Fantsy vs SF As I've already said, I consider Pratchett primarily a humourist rather than a fantasist, but his love of the genre and awareness of its shortcomings is undeniable. His lampoons can be deliciously sharp.
Message-ID: <ON6kqyAmfO45Ewc2@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <39DF9B00.A9E@jps.net>, Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
writes
>Have you ever tried writing fantasy? Your 'orcs are the downtrodden
>masses' rant-beginning actually sounds like you could give lie to your
>theory about Fantasy not being subversive. Write the orcs. Let them rise
>up and overthrow their evil overlord, set up their own nation, and ally
>with the peasents of other societies to kill off the High King, etc.
Mary Gentle already did, in "Grunts". It's hysterically funny, and says
some very nasty things about some favourite fantasy cliches.
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 18:09:56 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Food
Message-ID: <200010091810_MC2-B64B-9840@compuserve.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Betty replied to Dana:
>> I don't think Jenna (or Servalan, for that matter) =
>>really even like food very much. I REALLY hate =
>>people like that.
>
>Really? I see them both as having the kind of self-indulgent =
>streak that would lead to an appreciation of good food. =
Bercol and Rontane thought Space Command's cuisine was "appalling", and
they were VIP visitors so should have been getting the best on offer. =
Though Bercol said he could have brought his own chef, so I suppose it's
possible that Servalan keeps one to provide her own meals.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 16:21:10 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Food
Message-ID: <39E244D6.3F6447A@sdc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Harriet Monkhouse wrote:
> Bercol and Rontane thought Space Command's cuisine was "appalling", and
> they were VIP visitors so should have been getting the best on offer.
> Though Bercol said he could have brought his own chef, so I suppose it's
> possible that Servalan keeps one to provide her own meals.
I'd be astounded if she didn't.
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"I love hearing that lonesome wail of the train whistle as
the magnitude of the frequency of the wave changes due to
the Doppler effect." -- Sidney Harris
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 00:09:02 +0100
From: "Emma Peel" <emmapeel@calvino.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Christmas presents
Message-ID: <003301c0330f$16201060$3127883e@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jacqui asked:-
As the Christmas decorations start to be sold in the shops, has anyone
considered what the crew of the Liberator would get for their 'end of year
celebrations'?
Non-scientist/intellectual Emma claps her hands.. at last! A frivilous
thread! Ok, I can do that....
Blake: Any hypnotherapy tape
Servalan: bumper No.17 make up kit (rainbow colours with glitter)
Travis: pack of christmas crackers to see if any of them have a better
quality ring
Avon: Who Wants To Be a Millionaire for the Playstation
Cally: one of those tapes of dolphins you play when you can't sleep
I'd really really like someone to get a spacehopper but I can't work out
who. And one of those Girls World things where you style its hair - I guess
that would have to be Soolin.
(sigh) not worth the wait after 3 months of lurking, was it? (grin)
Emma.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:02:58 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy
Message-ID: <00ba01c03245$14b3bdf0$0d01a8c0@codex>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Julia:
> In message <003b01c03101$63ecb740$0d01a8c0@codex>, Una McCormack
> <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk> writes
> >I use some quite precise statistical tools
> >to do some quite specific measuring (and I get software to do this for
me
> >now, altho' I used to do the maths on paper), but I quite specifically
make
> >no claims to generalizability or repeatability.
>
> Which is one of the reasons I would classify it as science.
I was waiting for you to say that <g>
> Dragging this back to Blake's 7... It is noticeable that totalitarian
> societies tend to go in for some fairly nasty distortions of science in
> pursuit of ideology, one well known example being the USSR's official
> views on evolution. I wonder to what degree science in the Federation is
> stagnating? It does appear that they have a talent for pissing off top
> quality scientists, given the number in voluntary, or in Avon's case
> involuntary, exile.
I get the impression that the whole of intellectual life is pretty stagnant
under Federation rule, never mind the sciences. I can't see many symphonies
being produced, or great novels being written - at least, not state
sanctioned ones.
It's interesting that the Clonemasters are quasi-religious in the way they
seem to present their research findings.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 07:34:45 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>, <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon (was: Rumours of Death question)
Message-ID: <005501c03245$f7914980$fac628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon (was: Rumours of Death question)
> After Dana wrote:
> <I think the Federation has obligatory National Service, preceded by
> obilgatory Patrol Scouts, so I presume everyone has been taught how to
make
> campfires, kill and gut giant-icky-grub-thingies, etc. - although I'm sure
> certain elements forgot that VERY quickly.
>
> Mistral answered:
> <Doesn't quite square for me with living in domes and it being a crime to
go
> outside - at least not for those born and raised on Earth.>
It does square for me. Ship them off to other planets to do their NS. The
Soviets used to have a policy to the effect that, whenever they had to send
soldiers into a region, they would choose soldiers from outside the region
so that they wouldn't have an emotional attatchment to the place.
Frankly, I fail to see how the Federation can maintain the vast numbers of
blackshirts we see *without* NS.
Fiona
Fiona Moore
http://nyder.r67.net/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 08:01:47 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: <mistral@centurytel.net>, "B7 List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Community (was Re: [B7L] Fantasy)
Message-ID: <005601c03245$f8392240$fac628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
----- Original Message -----
From: <mistral@centurytel.net>
> Kathryn Andersen wrote:
>
> > I agree with Natasa about the individual to some extent, from this
> > point of view -- individualism has robbed us of *community*.
>
> No. Selfishness, fear, and isolation have robbed us of community
> (and I agree that population density plays a large part as well).
If you'll forgive me, I don't see community, even in the hotbeds of Western
individualism, decreasing so much as taking different forms. A real-life
example: in my professional life, I study foreign expatriates in the City of
London. My German interviewees repeatedly told me that there was "no German
community in London," that they were all fragmented, family groups, cast
adrift. A bit of further digging, however, produced the information that
they all sent their kids to the same school, most lived in the same area of
London, and virtually all of the Germans in the City knew each other, at
least by name. It's very fashionable these days to mourn the loss of
community, but just because we're not all living in tiny villages (a life I
personally have tried and found utterly intolerable) doesn't mean people
don't form amicable groupings.
Fiona
Fiona Moore
http://nyder.r67.net/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 08:04:06 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: "Betty Ragan" <ragan@sdc.org>, "B7 Lyst" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Food
Message-ID: <005701c03245$f8f03d40$fac628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Sally Manton wrote:
>
> > Which of course reminds us of one more of the horrors of Life Under the
> > Federation Jackboot (as shown in Moloch) ... murder, repression, rapine,
> > corruption and ***ersatz coffee!!!!*
Vote Rontane-- a Colombian bean in every pot.
Fiona
Fiona Moore
http://nyder.r67.net/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 19:22:12 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, freedom-city@blakes-7.org
Subject: [B7L] Pacey web site updated
Message-ID: <83.13ffa00.2713ad24@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
There are some new pictures at the Tarrant Nostra's Steven Pacey web site.
http://www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/turnpike/91/spbio.htm
New pictures include...
A picture from Steven's upcoming play, A FAMILY AFFAIR.
And some new, absolutely wonderful, intriguing, interesting pictures of
Steven when he appeared as Raoul in Ken Hills' PHANTOM OF THE OPERA. (With
thanks to Joyce who spotted the Phantom programs for sale on ebay.)
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 21:05:43 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: "'Lysator mailing list'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy
Message-ID: <00cb01c03258$1380e8a0$bc694e0c@dshilling>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Iain asked:
> Iain asked:
> >I'm curious: how many of the people banging on about what science is have
> actually done any honest-to-God science?
In this connection, honest-to-God may rate as a Freudian slip. However, as
a non-scientist, I would consider "improving human understanding of
the mind of God" as a pretty good definition of "science."
-(Y)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 21:10:08 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: "B7 List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:Avon & the kitchen
Message-ID: <00cc01c03258$17900840$bc694e0c@dshilling>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mistral said:
>
> > I find it touching how much faith this man who trusts no-one can have in
> > technology.
One of my pet peeves is the unquestioning reliance ALL B7 characters
put in technology that has failed them over, and over, and over again.
>
> Fairy tales are too close to myth which is too close to religion;
> I have wondered if there's actually any fiction allowed at all,
> other than deliberate propaganda.
They don't have Mother Goose, they have Pappa Ganda...
Actually, I think they have a lot of popular entertainment, like
1984 Prolefeed and the Nazi films churned out by UFA.
-(Y)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 17:51:06 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7 and the kitchen
Message-ID: <39E267F9.485D@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Tarrant is the sort who would burn boiled eggs (before anyone cries
> 'Toothy-bashing' *I* am the sort who *has* burned boiled eggs, so I speak
> from experience :-))
>
Tarrant has the excuse of being an officer and *not* trained for boiling
eggs. (Likewise, it isn't your profession) The cafeteria where I work
has people who cook for a living burn boiled eggs. :^P
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 18:09:40 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon & the kitchen
Message-ID: <39E26C53.37BF@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >Mistral wrote:
> > >What, you never curled up with an apple and a good book?<
> >Actually, no :-)
>
> Chocolate's better <grin>
>
The book is the main necessity (or computer, in Kerr's case). Fruit is
good, especially if one has a cold. Chocolate can actually distract from
the reading, but it can be a welcome distraction. For myself,
pomegranates were preferred over apples, but Granny Smith apples
definitely ranked up there.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:31:49 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon & the kitchen
Message-ID: <39E28DA5.EB7CD312@sdc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Helen Krummenacker wrote:
> > >Mistral wrote:
> > > >What, you never curled up with an apple and a good book?<
> > >Actually, no :-)
> >
> > Chocolate's better <grin>
> >
> The book is the main necessity (or computer, in Kerr's case). Fruit is
> good, especially if one has a cold. Chocolate can actually distract from
> the reading, but it can be a welcome distraction. For myself,
> pomegranates were preferred over apples, but Granny Smith apples
> definitely ranked up there.
Pretzels are good, too. Although somehow I can't quite see Avon being a
pretzel-eater, even as a child...
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"I love hearing that lonesome wail of the train whistle as
the magnitude of the frequency of the wave changes due to
the Doppler effect." -- Sidney Harris
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 23:44:32 -0600
From: Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@powersurfr.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Food
Message-Id: <4.1.20001009232245.00947e70@mail.powersurfr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I don't know about cooking and eating habits but Servalan would
*definitely* be an "Iron Chef" fan. Whereas Avon probably yearns tragically
for Martha Stewart. And Cally likes Emeril. Jenna thinks Bobby Flay is
cute...Blake likes that show where they go around to some stranger's house
and whip up a gourmet meal out of whatever they find in the kitchen while
the strangers look on in horrified fascination ("Door-Knock Dinners" I
think)...and only Vila understands that cooking shows just haven't been the
same since "The Galloping Gourmet" went low-fat.
--Penny (Picturing Iron Chef/Death-Watch Crossover)
--
"Why would anybody eat snails on purpose?" -Angela Anaconda
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 23:41:45 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Re [B7L] Fantasy, SF and all that stuff
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1009224145-965Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Mon 09 Oct, Sally Manton wrote:
> Mistral wrote:
> <Robin Hood in outer space - I always thought Blake's and Tarrant's clothes
> drew the parallel deliberately.>
>
> Nononono ... well, yes for Blake. Tarrant's into the Pirate King look (see
> Rumours, then think of Pirates of Penzance).
>
> Makes sense, in a space opera ...
So, have you read the Gilbert and Servalan Song Book, complete with 'The Pirates
of Gauda Prime'?
I bet some of you think I'm joking...
It's actually a hugely entertaining zine and should be a compulsory purchase for
any B7 fan who also enjoys Gilbert and Sullivan. Chris Blenkarn wrote most of
it - I just contributed a plot (shamelessly nicked from the Gondoliers). The
zine is still in print and can be bought from my web site.
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
I can also be talked into bringing one or two copies over to Eclecticon.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:45:46 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>,
<blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy
Message-ID: <003301c03283$a4395820$7fc428c3@stx.ox.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Iain:
>
> > I'm curious: how many of the people banging on about what science is
have
> actually done any honest-to-God science?
As the daughter and granddaughter of biochemists, psychologists and speech
pathologists, currently a practicing anthropologist (a soft science
admittedly but there's a certain amount of hard science in the method and
background)-- I'd say yes.
Fiona
The Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane
Available for public perusal at http://nyder.r67.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:21:01 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Re [B7L] Fantasy, SF and all that stuff
Message-ID: <LAW-F122szPDCm5P27n0000e5bc@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Judith wrote:
<So, have you read the Gilbert and Servalan Song Book, complete with 'The
Pirates of Gauda Prime'?>
I have! I have! I adore it - Chris is the very *best* writer of Vilakins's
voice I've read, and in rhyme *yet* ... 'tis a truly inspired collection.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:30:27 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon & the kitchen
Message-ID: <LAW-F259rNSeL8Pytau0000e4bd@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
I wonder if My Darling's a devotee of comfort food? Somehow, the picture of
him curling up with a bowl of steaming hot sago pudding and trickling
patterns of jam or honey in it is distinctly appealing ...
Also Zen might find that easier to replicate than Prawns a la Albian or
Alien-Animal-Flambe.
I wonder how much of the concentrated foods that were going to last all
those years were along the taste-bud lines of reconstituted
broccoli-swede-and baked-bean-casserole concentrate (after all, what the
Altas thought delicious and what Our Heroes might have thought ...)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:04:50 +0100 (BST)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bas.ac.uk>
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Community (was Re: [B7L] Fantasy)
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.1001010100419.30227A-100000@bscomp>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Nyder wrote:
>
> If you'll forgive me, I don't see community, even in the hotbeds of Western
> individualism, decreasing so much as taking different forms.
E.g. this mailing list.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:18:04 +0100 (BST)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bas.ac.uk>
To: "'Lysator mailing list'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.1001010101639.30227B-100000@bscomp>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Dana Shilling wrote:
> Iain asked:
>
> > Iain asked:
> > >I'm curious: how many of the people banging on about what science is have
> > actually done any honest-to-God science?
> In this connection, honest-to-God may rate as a Freudian slip.
Not if it was intentional, shirley.
However, as
> a non-scientist, I would consider "improving human understanding of
> the mind of God" as a pretty good definition of "science."
I wouldn't. That definition can encompass too many things that are clearly
not science, and doesn't really capture what is distinctive about science.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:31:13 +0100
From: Tavia Chalcraft <tavia@btinternet.com>
To: 'Lysator mailing list' <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy
Message-ID: <01C032AD.D34E9F10.tavia@btinternet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Dana and Iain (I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to guess which is
which):
>> However, as
>> a non-scientist, I would consider "improving human understanding of
>> the mind of God" as a pretty good definition of "science."
>I wouldn't. That definition can encompass too many things that are clearly
>not science, and doesn't really capture what is distinctive about science.
Actually, I think it works quite well as a broadbrush explanation of the
aims of science, which appears to be something that non-scientists
sometimes struggle to understand. One would need to supplement it with a
note about scientific methodology.
Trying to drag this slightly more on topic, one of the reasons I became a
scientist in the first place (whether or not I remain one now is quite
another matter) was reading a lot of science fiction as a young kid.
Asimov, Wyndham, Clarke and the like may write poorly, but they have an
enthusiasm and a concern about scientific ethics, and particularly the i
nteraction between science and society, that appealed to me. CP Snow when
slightly older then really got me hooked. Whilst I watched Blake's Seven at
much the same time, I don't remember it having any influence -- I saw it
more as soap opera, I think.
Tavia
http://www.viragene.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 11:57:40 +0100 (BST)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bas.ac.uk>
To: "'Lysator mailing list'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.1001010114856.30227E-100000@bscomp>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, Tavia Chalcraft wrote:
> Dana and Iain (I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to guess which is
> which):
> >> However, as
> >> a non-scientist, I would consider "improving human understanding of
> >> the mind of God" as a pretty good definition of "science."
>
> >I wouldn't. That definition can encompass too many things that are clearly
> >not science, and doesn't really capture what is distinctive about science.
>
> Actually, I think it works quite well as a broadbrush explanation of the
> aims of science, which appears to be something that non-scientists
> sometimes struggle to understand. One would need to supplement it with a
> note about scientific methodology.
I do like the emphasis on science as a spiritual quest rather than a
number-crunching exercise. However, the definition Dana gave implicitly
assumes a particular form of natural theology. It's one that a fair number
of scientists would go along with, but it's not a necessary part of
science.
You're right that one would have to mention methodology. However, it's
vitally important to get across that this methodolgy is intimately
connected with the higher aims of science. We use that methodology because
it's the best way we've found to achieve those aims, not for any arbitrary
or dogmatic reason.
The bottom line is that defining science in a couple of sentences is hard
- not least because one is not really _defining_ science, one is
_describing_ science.
>
> Trying to drag this slightly more on topic, one of the reasons I became a
> scientist in the first place (whether or not I remain one now is quite
> another matter) was reading a lot of science fiction as a young kid.
> Asimov, Wyndham, Clarke and the like may write poorly, but they have an
> enthusiasm and a concern about scientific ethics, and particularly the i
> nteraction between science and society, that appealed to me. CP Snow when
> slightly older then really got me hooked. Whilst I watched Blake's Seven at
> much the same time, I don't remember it having any influence -- I saw it
> more as soap opera, I think.
I used to think the same thing about the influence of Clarke upon my
career. Reading him at an impressionable age was certainly important, but
I've come to realise that deep, deep down, I'm a scientist because when I
was a little boy with a cute button nose I really wanted to be Doctor Who.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 12:47:26 +0100
From: Tavia Chalcraft <tavia@btinternet.com>
To: 'Lysator mailing list' <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: FW: Re: [B7L] Fantasy
Message-ID: <01C032B8.57FF8A30.tavia@btinternet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Dubiously quoting myself:
>...one of the reasons I became a scientist in the first place ... was
reading a lot of
>science fiction as a young kid. Asimov, Wyndham, Clarke and the like may
write poorly,
>but they have an enthusiasm and a concern about scientific ethics, and
particularly
> the interaction between science and society, that appealed to me. ...
>Whilst I watched Blake's Seven at much the
>same time, I don't remember it having any influence -- I saw it more as
>soap opera, I think.
Actually, thinking about this more clearly, the reason becomes rather
evident... Asimov (Susan? in the Robots stuff) and Wyndham (Diana Brackley
in Trouble with Lichen) bothered to provide female scientist role models,
while Blake's Seven did not, at least not in the shape of the major
characters. TwL (cringe though I do on rereading) had more effect on my
early career choices than anything else I can recall.
Tavia
http://www.viragene.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:50:36 -0400
From: "Doraleen McArthur" <d.mcarthur@worldnet.att.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy
Message-ID: <001401c032c1$1ee9f560$06f25a0c@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: Natasa Tucev <tucev@tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu>
>
> What I think I'm trying to say, is that intellectual truths are fine, but
we
> can't live by intellectual truths alone. And the problem is not that the
> emotional truths may be at odds with the intellectual ones - the problem
is
> that they are totally neglected. And this may leave us somewhat crippled
as
> human beings.
Thing is, I don't think this is true of everyone. I've lived my entire
life without any sort of supernatural/spiritual truths; I really do believe
chemistry and physics and so on can explain it all eventually (though I
doubt we'll ever get there). I don't feel particularly crippled, though.
Some people are searchers that way and some aren't.
--Katie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 16:38:13 +0200
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <inquisitioner@wish.net>
To: 'Lysator mailing list' <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy
Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001010163330.009dc090@pop3.wish.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
At 11:31 10-10-00 +0100, Tavia Chalcraft wrote:
>Dana and Iain (I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to guess which is
>which):
> >> However, as
> >> a non-scientist, I would consider "improving human understanding of
> >> the mind of God" as a pretty good definition of "science."
>
> >I wouldn't. That definition can encompass too many things that are clearly
> >not science, and doesn't really capture what is distinctive about science.
>
>Actually, I think it works quite well as a broadbrush explanation of the
>aims of science,
Only if you're a christian who believes that your god created everything.
If you're an atheist, "improving understanding of the mind of god" is as
valid as "improving understanding of the mind of Rudolf the red nosed
reindeer" as a definition of "science".
Jacqueline
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:55:14 -0700
From: mistral@centurytel.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy
Message-ID: <39E33BE1.20BCBB1B@centurytel.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jacqueline Thijsen wrote:
> At 11:31 10-10-00 +0100, Tavia Chalcraft wrote:
> >Dana and Iain (I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to guess which is
> >which):
> > >> However, as
> > >> a non-scientist, I would consider "improving human understanding of
> > >> the mind of God" as a pretty good definition of "science."
> >
> > >I wouldn't. That definition can encompass too many things that are clearly
> > >not science, and doesn't really capture what is distinctive about science.
> >
> >Actually, I think it works quite well as a broadbrush explanation of the
> >aims of science,
>
> Only if you're a christian who believes that your god created everything.
> If you're an atheist, "improving understanding of the mind of god" is as
> valid as "improving understanding of the mind of Rudolf the red nosed
> reindeer" as a definition of "science".
Well, just to nitpick ;-) It could also work for Jews, Muslims, those
polytheistic religions which have a creator in the pantheon, and
possibly some of the pantheistic ones for whom everything is god.
Maybe especially for pantheists? Though I'd call it a personal
meaning of science and not a definition per se.
Mistral
--
"Who do you serve? And who do you trust?"
--Galen, 'Crusade'
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:20:46 +0100
From: Tavia Chalcraft <tavia@btinternet.com>
To: 'Lysator mailing list' <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy
Message-ID: <01C032DE.6E9941C0.tavia@btinternet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jacqueline and Mistral:
>> Only if you're a christian who believes that your god created
everything.
>> If you're an atheist, "improving understanding of the mind of god" is as
>> valid as "improving understanding of the mind of Rudolf the red nosed
>> reindeer" as a definition of "science".
>Well, just to nitpick ;-) It could also work for Jews, Muslims, those
>polytheistic religions which have a creator in the pantheon, and
>possibly some of the pantheistic ones for whom everything is god.
>Maybe especially for pantheists? Though I'd call it a personal
>meaning of science and not a definition per se.
I can't speak for Dana, obviously, but I'm certainly not a Christian and am
quite possibly an atheist -- I'm currently reserving judgement (and
awaiting thunderbolts). 'Understanding the mind of God' works just fine for
me. Metaphorically speaking.
Tavia
http://www.viragene.com/
------------------------------
Date: 10 Oct 00 10:17:21 PDT
From: Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Postings for soldiers
Message-ID: <20001010171721.6491.qmail@ww183.netaddress.usa.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The Romans did the same with their auxiliaries
It does square for me. Ship them off to other planets to do their NS. The=
Soviets used to have a policy to the effect that, whenever they had to se=
nd
soldiers into a region, they would choose soldiers from outside the regio=
n
so that they wouldn't have an emotional attatchment to the place.
Frankly, I fail to see how the Federation can maintain the vast numbers o=
f
blackshirts we see *without* NS.
Fiona
Fiona Moore
http://nyder.r67.net/
____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home=
=2Enetscape.com/webmail
------------------------------
Date: 10 Oct 00 10:20:35 PDT
From: Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape.net>
To: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>,
"INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [Re: [B7L] Food]
Message-ID: <20001010172035.3786.qmail@ww181.netaddress.usa.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> wrote:
Betty replied to Dana:
>> I don't think Jenna (or Servalan, for that matter) =
>>really even like food very much. I REALLY hate =
>>people like that.
>
>Really? I see them both as having the kind of self-indulgent =
>streak that would lead to an appreciation of good food. =
Bercol and Rontane thought Space Command's cuisine was "appalling", and
they were VIP visitors so should have been getting the best on offer. =
Though Bercol said he could have brought his own chef, so I suppose it's
possible that Servalan keeps one to provide her own meals.
Harriet
She has probably also acquired tolerances to some of the poisons (as in t=
he
Peter Wimsey (Dorothy Sayers) story (I forget which)
Jackie
____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home=
=2Enetscape.com/webmail
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:20:19 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy
Message-ID: <200010101320_MC2-B66F-83C7@compuserve.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Ellynne wrote:
>I agree with that Lewis quote (which said pretty much
> what I'd wanted to earlier only better and briefer), "Even
> in your world, my son, that is not what a star is but only
> what it is made of."
Unfortunately, Lewis gives the line to a star who is a patriarchal figure=
in a long white shirt.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 19:05:36 +0100 (BST)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bas.ac.uk>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.1001010190419.14121A-100000@bscomp>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 10 Oct 2000, Harriet Monkhouse wrote:
> Ellynne wrote:
> >I agree with that Lewis quote (which said pretty much
> > what I'd wanted to earlier only better and briefer), "Even
> > in your world, my son, that is not what a star is but only
> > what it is made of."
>
> Unfortunately, Lewis gives the line to a star who is a patriarchal figure
> in a long white shirt.
Even more unfortunately, the line is the worst kind of naive essentialism.
Is all Lewis's metaphysics this bad?
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:08:50 +0200
From: "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
To: "B7 Lyst" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Food
Message-ID: <006f01c032e5$33077440$a5ee72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Harriet Monkhouse wrote:
>Though Bercol said he could have brought his own chef, so I suppose it's
possible that Servalan keeps one to provide her own meals.<
Maybe Servalan's hunger for power leaves no room for a taste for food :-)
Marian
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:12:32 +0200
From: "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Postings for soldiers
Message-ID: <007201c032e5$aed0e840$a5ee72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Fiona wrote:
>Frankly, I fail to see how the Federation can maintain the vast numbers of
blackshirts we see *without* NS.<
Maybe only the lower grades were drafted in? (Vila would either have found
a way of evading conscription or he would have been kicked out very soon
because of his kleptomania.)
Marian
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:38:43 +0100
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: Blake's 7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy
Message-ID: <8wb41qAjrj45EwIa@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <20001009230805.A9799@welkin.apana.org.au>, Kathryn Andersen
<kat@welkin.apana.org.au> writes
>Since when is "What a load of bollocks" a reasoned argument?
It isn't, it was a deliberate example of an emotional response. What
followed was a reasoned argument. Or at least, a pointing out of *why*
the notion that science is heartless, cold stamp-collecting is a load of
bollocks.
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #284
**************************************