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blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 300
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ Mac4781@aol.com ]
[B7L] Blake's 7 on DVD [ Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com ]
Re: [B7L] Blake's 7 on DVD [ Mac4781@aol.com ]
Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.con ]
[B7L] Headhunter (was Re: Avon as lo [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
[B7L] Avon and Marriage [ "Emma Peel" <emmapeel@calvino.frees ]
Re: [[B7L] Re: bookworms] [ Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape. ]
Re: [[B7L] Re:if Shakespeare wrote B [ Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape. ]
[B7L] Deja Vu [ Andrew Williams <AWilliams@daikin.c ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ Mac4781@aol.com ]
Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ Mac4781@aol.com ]
Re: [B7L] Avon and Marriage [ Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@power ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
Re: [B7L] Richard III and all that [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 14:20:58 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?) (getting even longer)
Message-ID: <3d.2abd710.2729d00a@aol.com>
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Betty wrote:
> Like going to the grocery store and fogetting to buy what you came for,
> hmm? I do that all the time. :)
Yep. :)
> Although I
> think my assessment of the risks involved in that plan is probably
> higher than yours. It seems to me that there are a *lot* of ways it
> could have gone horribly wrong.
I agree a lot could have gone wrong. And I think Avon was aware of that and
willing to take the risks. I just don't find that disturbing. Let me put it
this way, Blake was willing to risk his life for a goal that was very
important to him. Avon was willing to risk his life for a goal that was very
important to him. Two men, two different goals, both willing to take high
risks.
> Oh, yes, exactly. But I still think that if it were Blake, it would
> have been different. He *doesn't* expect that sort of thing from
> Blake. IMHO.
You keep saying that, but he believes Blake betrayed him so easily, it just
doesn't add up. And why would Avon put Blake on that type of pedestal? He
recognizes Blake to be a fallible human being. Blake might be the shipmate
Avon is least likely to trust for two reasons: (a) Blake has shown he's
capable of going to extreme lengths to get what he wants and (b) Blake is
vulnerable to mind manipulation. If it came down to the Cause or Avon, Avon
knows which Blake would choose.
Avon and Blake are two strong, complex characters. But what you're telling
me about them seems to suggest a heroine worshipping the male lead in a
romance novel, where characters are simpler and gentler.
> [Shrug] As I know I've said before, it seems to me the only explanation
> that makes any sense at all of many of his actions. Like the way he's
> constantly putting himself in danger for Blake...
Avon is constantly putting himself in danger for his other shipmates as well.
We've been through this before. If it appears he does it more for Blake,
it's because Blake is more often in trouble. In fourth series Avon takes the
most risks for Tarrant. Because Tarrant is the one who gets in trouble the
most often. Not because Tarrant is more important to him than Vila, Dayna or
Soolin.
> Yes, I think this is a good point. If you accept premise A ("Avon cared
> deeply about Blake"), you're sort of forced into premise B ("Avon had
> emotional problems that would let him accept that he cared deeply about
> Blake"). Of course, if you *reject* premise A, you then have to find
> some premise C to explain why, if he *doesn't* care about Blake, he
> nevertheless does everything for Blake that he does.
Because Avon was loyal to his shipmates. Because Avon accepts that he should
do his share of the work if he's accepting a share of the safety and
protection that being part of a team provides. It's pretty straightforward.
And it allows canon to stand without turning Avon into someone in need of
therapy.
>Or to put it another way I've seen various
> premise C's: "Avon really is an idealist, deep down, and *wants* to help
> Blake destroy the Federation"
Don't see that either.
> or "Avon really does have a noble, caring
> streak and would do the same for any of them."
Avon doesn't have a noble, caring streak, but he is a decent human being. He
would and does risk his life for people he cares about. Not just for Blake.
Why do you think he risks his life for the others?
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 13:09:47 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Cc: Freedom City <freedom-city@blakes-7.org>
Subject: [B7L] Blake's 7 on DVD
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1026120947-d07Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Why not send an e-mail to Fabulous Films telling them how pleased we are that
they're planning to release Blake's 7 on DVD? Because I don't know about you,
but I'm jumping up and down in delight!
You might also want to add a *friendly* request saying that you hope they'll
clean up the prints so that the picture quality is better than the video. Tell
them that we don't want Star Wars type extra digital footage or anything that
would cost a fortune, just our beloved original series in the best possible
condition. And some cast interviews would be nice... (and maybe that brief
scene that got lost in Rescue - I think there's a missing moment of Vila with a
bottle and one where Soolin sneaks away.)
The e-mail address is info@fabulousfilms.co.uk
(and thanks to Robert Windle for suggesting this - he says if B7 DVDs can be
done to the quality of the fothcoming Robots of Death, then it would be really
great, and I agree.)
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:40:05 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: freedom-city@blakes-7.org
Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake's 7 on DVD
Message-ID: <4e.cb682aa.2729e295@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Judith wrote:
> You might also want to add a *friendly* request saying that you hope
they'll
> clean up the prints so that the picture quality is better than the video.
<snip>
> The e-mail address is info@fabulousfilms.co.uk
>
> (and thanks to Robert Windle for suggesting this -
Thanks for the suggestion and for the email address. Yanks might also write
and ask about B7 DVDs that are compatible with our technology. I think we're
region 1, but I'm not positive about that.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:52:13 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <022901c03f86$53480410$0d01a8c0@codex>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Katie wrote:
> From: Sally Manton <smanton@hotmail.com>
>
> > Katie wrote:
> > <I just recently rewatched "Stardrive" (hey, I'm making progress in my
> > Grand Rewatching!)>
> >
> > - which means you get Animals next, lucky you ... :-)
>
> Oh no, I did that one the same day. Og's got a heck of a head on him
> there. I enjoyed that.
<smug>
Una
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:49:07 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Headhunter (was Re: Avon as loner?)
Message-ID: <LAW-F74IN4MmXKCnzNw00001a4a@hotmail.com>
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Katie wrote re Animals:
<Oh no, I did that one the same day. Og's got a heck of a head on him
there. I enjoyed that.>
Hey Una, you may have another convert ...
<I'm up to, er, "Headhunter" next. Is that the one with the bridge?>
Yep. Extremely silly but lots of fun, and Vena is one of the few people
that Avon takes a *liking* to IMO ... I like Headhunter. And like the next
one - Assassin - even more, even if Avon (and Soolin) not shooting Piri in
three seconds flat is another one of those 'suspension of disbelief goes
twang' moments. It's a good 'Our Heroes Behaving Badly' episode, which I
always enjoy (see Horizon :-)).
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Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:52:13 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?)
Message-ID: <LAW-F189AbAWFswl3tT000006d1@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Carol wrote:
<He observed people and learned from those observations. For instance, it
was his sure knowledge that his third-season shipmates would support him
that made him go through the elaborate effort to keep them out of it.>
Given the bludgeoning they gave him in Rumours on this point (at that stage
he didn't have a *clue*, he really did think they'd back off and let him
have his revenge in privacy, silly him), he'd have to be blind to the point
of stupidity not to realise that. But he *still* doesn't understand them at
all, since he doesn't realise that they aren't going to listen to him
anyway.
I sometimes think that part of the problem is that he keeps waiting for
these people to act like his beloved computers - that is, *rationally* - and
until the arrival of Soolin, there's really not one person on the ship who
does that (not even himself, but he chooses not to think about that too hard
:-)
Now Betty:
<The impulse to revenge is normal, if not, IMO, laudable. I do regard what
Avon did in "Rumours" as extreme. Disturbingly so.>
Agreed, but for another reason ... they all know what the Federation can do
to people's minds (Blake, Vila). *We* know even more (remember that machine
that Avalon was hooked up to)? It just takes one person to recognise Avon
and they're *all* in real trouble ...
I agree, this is not a certainty (and a gaping plot hole, moreover) as it
appears that very little firm information about Blake's and/or Avon's crew
ever got to the Minor Powers-That-Be. But this *is* the Security section
and Avon has been a prisoner before - what if they're weren't too stupid to
double-check his finger-prints or retina scan or the futuristic
equivalent???
And there's the over-riding importance of the timing as well - what if the
ship's discovered (they're orbiting Earth - the centre of the Federation*)
and they have to run just when he needs then? What if they're attacked en
masse? What if he breaks?
It's actually a very shonky plan, though if the peripheral organisation (the
transmitter bit, for instance) is quite clever. And it's not just his own
life that's at stake here, but the ship and the rest of them for the memory
of a long-dead woman. It's very Avon-ish (as I've said before, dead Anna
means more than live Cally, or live all four of them) but the whole thing
does emphasise the murkier aspects of My Darling's character ...
(So does the fact that he's prepared to release Servalan - in effect to help
her against the revolt he can see going on around them - to get the piece of
information he wants for his private revenge. Interesing ...)
Back to Betty:
<[Shrug] As I know I've said before, it seems to me the only explanation
that makes any sense at all of many of his actions. Like the way he's
constantly putting himself in danger for Blake...>
I will say it again (no matter who doesn't want to hear it again) ... he has
given his alleigance to the point he will die for the man (Hostage), carry
out the suicidal defence of the galaxy for the man (Star One), kill another
crew member (Tarrant, Terminal) or let said other crew members be shot in
front of him for the man (Tarrant and probably Cally, Terminal). One has to
be grateful it is a once-off (or twice-off, with Anna) thing, because a
character who was prepared to go to such lengths for every member of his
crew would be somewhat nauseating and quite intolerable for me (I do not
like plaster saints, no matter how leather-n-studded they come).
It also appears that, while in 3rd season he rejects the idea that the
Liberator is still Blakes (Moloch), he still thinks of them all as 'Blake's
people' - when too tired and hurt to equivocate, he *agrees* that he is
Blake's (Rumours). Small point, but nice.
<I've seen various premise C's: "Avon really is an idealist, deep down, and
*wants* to help Blake destroy the Federation" or "Avon really does have a
noble, caring streak and would do the same for any of them." Neither of
which is remotely convincing to *me*.>
<gurgle> see above. If Avon does have a noble, caring streak, he's managed
to isolate and deep-freeze it somewhere in space where it won't bother him
... I've read some of these.
*This is also a problem with Pressure Point, but at least Blake isn't asking
Jenna to swan around the seat of power for *days*. And BTW, why in both
episodes was it the *pilot* who went down, for goodness sake? Shouldn't
she/he have been glued to the flight deck in case of trouble???
Oh well, if one had problems with plot holes one would watch ... would watch
... a nice documentary, perhaps?
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 22:18:54 +0100
From: "Emma Peel" <emmapeel@calvino.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Avon and Marriage
Message-ID: <002f01c0405b$beed53c0$8939883e@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Penny asked:-
> >Emma: He might go for her. She had money.
>
> Isn't that happy news, Mrs. Peel? Or is "marriage" not what you are
gunning
> for?
I'm happy to live 'over the brush' for a man with the right assets - do you
think he managed to take any of the Liberator strong room goodies with him?
High kicks in slinky frock -
'On Vern, dear, the sand makes him, quite tempremental
But diamonds are a girls best friend
His scowls may be grand, but they won't pay the rental
on a D.S.V.
(or buy B7 on D.V.D.)
Love grows cold
When your thermal suit gets old
And we all lose our charms in the end
But Zen's secret treasures
Will keep giving pleasure
Diamond's are a girl's best friend
(I don't mean Feldons!),
Diamonds are a girl's best friend.'
Emma.
------------------------------
Date: 26 Oct 00 14:07:52 PDT
From: Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape.net>
To: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [[B7L] Re: bookworms]
Message-ID: <20001026210752.1989.qmail@www0s.netaddress.usa.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net> wrote:
> From: =
> Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape.net>
> Add Sherlock Holmes to Avon's list
> =
Yes, considering a Sherlockian friend pointed out the finger-steepling
mannerism in "Mission To Destiny" indicating Avon was *deliberately*
playing at Sherlock Holmes.
If Avon is Sherlock Holmes who are Watson, and Lestrade (Vila would be ru=
nning
the lookouts Avon/Sherlock has on the streets)
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------------------------------
Date: 26 Oct 00 14:09:08 PDT
From: Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [[B7L] Re:if Shakespeare wrote Blakes 7]
Message-ID: <20001026210908.23009.qmail@wwcst269.netaddress.usa.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Servalan as Lady Macbeth?
Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net> wrote:
> =
> One wonders what Shakespeare would have done with Avon, especially if h=
e
> knew he had to take Servalan being queen into account. . . .
> =
Avon would be another Iago,and Blake probably really would have been a
pedophile. After all, Shakespeare couldn't risk Elizabeth thinking
Servie was meant to be an unflattering metaphor for *her*. So the
Supreme Commander would be the defender of the Federation, etc, etc.
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:31:49 +1000
From: Andrew Williams <AWilliams@daikin.com.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Deja Vu
Message-ID: <4103E830BB67D211877400A0247B635E34E204@dialup49.actonline.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain
Which young actor played a Federation soldier in B7 and then went on to play
a moustached CID officer?
Of course, you're meant to say Kevin Lloyd ('Tosh' Lines in The Bill), but
I'm actually thinking of David Haig. It only dawned on me yesterday that
Section Leader Forress ("Every part a moving part") in Rumours went on to
play DI Derek Grim ("I don't want any fannying about!") in "The Thin Blue
Line" with Rowan Atkinson.
Of course, after thinking "I wonder if that was him" it took me an
incredible amount of time trying to find the cast list for either show. I
finally found details of "The Thin Blue Line" on the net, but had to wait
until I got home to check about Forress. Attwood came in handy for a
change!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:22:45 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?)
Message-ID: <c3.a6a0cae.272a16c5@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Sally wrote:
> I will say it again (no matter who doesn't want to hear it again) ... he
has
> given his alleigance to the point he will die for the man
When did he give this allegiance and why?
> given his alleigance to the point he will die for the man (Hostage),
Erp, that's a bit dramatic. There's no evidence to suggest that Avon thought
he was going to die when he went down to Exbar. And there's the little
matter of his phoning in certain information.
> carry
> out the suicidal defence of the galaxy for the man (Star One),
Avon has a personal stake in this one. If the Andromedans succeed, he'll be
one of the losers. Even if Blake hadn't asked, I can't see Avon passing on
this. Nor can I see Jenna or Cally passing.
> kill another
> crew member (Tarrant, Terminal)
Since he didn't kill him, this is just supposition. I don't believe Avon
would have pulled the trigger any more than Tarrant would have pulled the
trigger when he held the gun on Vila in MOLOCH. While Cally and Tarrant
initially think Avon's threat was serious, they change their minds pretty
quickly. Tarrant makes a joke about Avon's threat to shoot them if they
follow him to Terminal. Neither Cally or Tarrant are worried. I think he
and Cally were probably kicking themselves for allowing Avon to bluff them.
> or let said other crew members be shot in
> front of him for the man (Tarrant and probably Cally, Terminal).
This one didn't even come close to happening.
If Avon was so protective of Blake, why did he leave him without back up or
access to the teleport in GAMBIT?
> One has to
> be grateful it is a once-off (or twice-off, with Anna) thing, because a
> character who was prepared to go to such lengths for every member of his
> crew
When, except in ORBIT, did Avon leave a shipmate in a hazardous situation?
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 00:02:07 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <LAW-F19429xDbH8J0sc000008cb@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
After I wrote:
<I will say it again (no matter who doesn't want to hear it again) ... he
has given his alleigance to the point he will die for the man>
Carol wrote:
<When did he give this allegiance and why?>
Carol dear, you never *agree* with my "whys" when I give them <g> it's a
gradual process (there are faint signs of it if you're looking - and I am -
right back in 1st season).
<given his alleigance to the point he will die for the man (Hostage), ?
<Erp, that's a bit dramatic. There's no evidence to suggest that Avon
thought he was going to die when he went down to Exbar. And there's the
little matter of his phoning in certain information. >
"Leave me, watch yourself." Depends on how serious you think he was at that
minute - I think he was (to coin a phrase) dead serious. And yes, it's "a
bit dramatic" but then My Darling's good at dramatic (and dead serious)
gestures (what else *is* Rumours, adter all?)
<If the Andromedans succeed, he'll be one of the losers. Even if Blake
hadn't asked, I can't see Avon passing on this.>
I can. He's got the fastest ship in the galaxy, lots of space to hide in and
enough food to last a thousand or so years - he doesn't *need* the rest of
the galaxy and he knows it. And he doesn't give a damn about them anyway
(Killer). Again, different Avons (we each vastly prefer our own, but what's
wrong with that?)
<kill another crew member (Tarrant, Terminal) >
<Since he didn't kill him, this is just supposition. I don't believe Avon
would have pulled the trigger any more than Tarrant would have pulled the
trigger when he held the gun on Vila in MOLOCH.>
'Tis pure supposition that he wouldn't have, either. Tarrant was bright
enough to stand very, very still and not push it. So we all go with what we
see, and I *do* think he was a hairsbreath from shooting at that whispered,
venomous "you least of all", and both Tarrant (from the shell-shocked look
on his face) and Cally did believe it (and Cally at least knows him well
enough to judge). So they all fell back and did *not* push the matter of
his endangering the Liberator (and them all), because they did believe
trying to override him could get them killed.
The second time in the teleport was a bluff, true, since everything was back
on track as far as he was concerned. It felt like a bluff, and the others
reacted accordingly. But they were very wary, making absolutely sure he
wouldn't see them following him - in case the bluff turned real again IMO.
Tarrant wouldn't have pulled the trigger in Moloch, true (and god only knows
what he thought he was doing pulling the gun), but Avon is *not* Tarrant.
<or let said other crew members be shot in front of him for the man (Tarrant
and probably Cally, Terminal).>
<This one didn't even come close to happening.>
Tarrant had Servalan's gun at his head, and was told to contact the
Liberator *and Avon tried to stop him*. Given that *I* don't see him
thinking "she won't do it", it's enough proof for me.
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:00:37 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <58.27023c3.272a2db5@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sally wrote:
> Carol dear, you never *agree* with my "whys" when I give them <g>
Sally dear, I've never asked you this particular question before. If you
don't think you'll persuade me, regardless that it is a new question, think
of it as persuading undecided voters. :)
I don't expect to change your mind either, but I'm happy to have the
opportunity to present evidence to support my theories.
> "Leave me, watch yourself." Depends on how serious you think he was at
that
That's not dying for Blake. It's typical pragmatic Avon. If one person is
mobile and can get away, he tells him to get away. Just as he told Liberator
to leave in Terminal. If someone else had been there other than Blake, what
do you think Avon would have said?
> I can. He's got the fastest ship in the galaxy, lots of space to hide in
and
> enough food to last a thousand or so years - he doesn't *need* the rest of
> the galaxy and he knows it. And he doesn't give a damn about them anyway
> (Killer). Again, different Avons (we each vastly prefer our own, but
what's
> wrong with that?)
Definitely different Avons. I have no problem that you prefer a different
Avon, but I do admit to curiosity about how different your Avon is. I have a
lot of trouble believing that someone who is the bastard you describe in
regard to almost the entire universe becomes a veritable saint when it comes
to Blake. Again, I ask why? Why would a man who is so indifferent to his
fellow human beings change so drastically when it comes to Blake?
And also again, why would a man so dedicated to Blake leave him without
backup or teleport in GAMBIT?
Nor did you answer another of my questions, when did Avon leave any shipmate
in a hazardous situation?
If you don't have answers to those questions and/or don't care about those
questions--you just want to enjoy your Avon as you see him--that's fine. Just
tell me. I enjoy discussing the characters and what makes them tick. But I
need canonical facts to do that. I'm not interested in "he is; he isn't."
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:24:47 -0600
From: Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@powersurfr.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and Marriage
Message-Id: <4.1.20001026192053.0094c650@mail.powersurfr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:18 PM 10/27/00 +0100, Emma Peel wrote:
>Love grows cold
>When your thermal suit gets old
>And we all lose our charms in the end
>
>But Zen's secret treasures
>Will keep giving pleasure
>Diamond's are a girl's best friend
Ahahahaha! Mrs. Peel, you take the cake.
--
For A Dread Time, Call Penny:
http://members.tripod.com/~Penny_Dreadful/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:09:13 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?) (getting even longer)
Message-ID: <39F8F1D9.6D8DC55D@sdc.org>
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Responding to me, Carol Mc wote:
> > Oh, yes, exactly. But I still think that if it were Blake, it would
> > have been different. He *doesn't* expect that sort of thing from
> > Blake. IMHO.
> You keep saying that, but he believes Blake betrayed him so easily, it just
> doesn't add up.
Well, I don't think it was a *rational* response, but I find it an
easy one to understand, nevertheless. I've tried to explain why I see
it that way; maybe I just haven't done a very good job of it, or maybe
it's just a major difference in how our minds work. But, let me try
again. Here's the way I see it: 1) Avon trusted Blake, probably more
than anybody else in the world. But 2) Trust is difficult for Avon
even under the best circumstances, and Anna proved to him that even
the people he trusted most in all the world *could* betray him. 3)
Betrayal from the people we most trust and care about hurts far, far
worse than betrayal from anybody else. The result of points 1 through
3 is that, when Blake appears to have betrayed him in the tracking
gallery, he is *just* capable of believing it, and it's like his worst
nightmare coming true... all over again. Which is why he responds
violently, emotionally, and irrationally. (And the fact that, IMO,
much of his self-image is based on being an intelligent, pragmatic guy
who doesn't let himself be weakened by trust or sentiment doesn't
help, either... Once again, he's forced to "recognize the fool," and
that's *gotta* hurt.)
Now, you might not agree that that's what's happening, but surely the
psychology doesn't seem all *that* bizarre, does it?
> And why would Avon put Blake on that type of pedestal? He
> recognizes Blake to be a fallible human being.
Oh, he *certainly* recognizes that Blake is fallible. And he points
it out often enough! But Blake is nevertheless something special
(IMHO, and, I believe, in Avon's, not that you'd get him to admit it).
He's that Honest Man that Avon didn't believe existed. He's not
corrupt and self-serving like the rest of that dysfunctional universe.
And yet he's not naive and stupid, the way Avon sees so much of the rest
of the universe (and particularly idealistic types) as being.
> Blake might be the shipmate
> Avon is least likely to trust for two reasons: (a) Blake has shown he's
> capable of going to extreme lengths to get what he wants
But he also goes to those same extreme lengths for his people. He
expects them to risk their lives beside his, yes, but he will risk his
life *for* them, as well.
> and (b) Blake is vulnerable to mind manipulation.
Now, that's a more interesting point. But they did supposedly manage
to get all of the residual programming out of him in "Voice." Sure,
he's vulnerable to having it done again, but so is *everybody* (well,
except maybe Vila).
> If it came down to the Cause or Avon, Avon
> knows which Blake would choose.
That's true, but Avon knows exactly where he stands, there. (He may
not *like* it, but he knows it.) I think (and I think Avon probably
does as well), that if it came down to a choice between Avon and the
Cause, Blake would do everything he possibly could find a third
option. And, being Blake, he'd probably succeed... Anyway, in
"Blake," it looks like he's sold out not just Avon, but Avon *and* the
Cause, which is even more shocking.
> Avon and Blake are two strong, complex characters. But what you're telling
> me about them seems to suggest a heroine worshipping the male lead in a
> romance novel, where characters are simpler and gentler.
Oh, gawd no! "Simple" and "gentle" are the *last* two words I would
ever use to describe either of them! They're fantastically complex
people; in fact, Avon is IMO perhaps the *most* complex and layered
character I've seen in media SF. I think Avon's emotions towards
Blake are *very* complicated and conflicted, and not at all gentle.
(The phrase "love-hate relationship" doens't *quite* capture it, I
think, but at least conveys some of the flavor.) I certainly don't
think Avon "worships" Blake. Blecch.
Oddly enough, the impression that I've gotten of *your* Avon seems far
too simple and gentle to me.
> Avon is constantly putting himself in danger for his other shipmates
> as well. We've been through this before. If it appears he does it
> more for Blake, it's because Blake is more often in trouble. In
> fourth series Avon takes the most risks for Tarrant. Because
> Tarrant is the one who gets in trouble the most often. Not
> because Tarrant is more important to him than Vila, Dayna or
> Soolin.
Yes, we have been through it before... And I'm quite sure we're not
going to agree about it now! I see a difference between the risks he
takes for Blake and the risks he takes for the others: the former seem
(often) to be more extreme, less rational, and more emotional. You
don't see that. Once again, it's a difference of intepretation...
> > Yes, I think this is a good point. If you accept premise A ("Avon cared
> > deeply about Blake"), you're sort of forced into premise B ("Avon had
> > emotional problems that would let him accept that he cared deeply about
> > Blake"). Of course, if you *reject* premise A, you then have to find
> > some premise C to explain why, if he *doesn't* care about Blake, he
> > nevertheless does everything for Blake that he does.
>
> Because Avon was loyal to his shipmates. Because Avon accepts that
> he should do his share of the work if he's accepting a share of the
> safety and protection that being part of a team provides. It's
> pretty straightforward. And it allows canon to stand without
> turning Avon into someone in need of therapy.
But "safety and protection" are the *last* things the Liberator
affords him! Running around blowing up Federation installations every
week when he could find himself some neutral planet to hide on?
Doesn't sound like the safe & sane choice to *me*. IMO there is no
rational reason why he should choose to stay and fight Blake's battles
for him. Which just leaves emotional reasons... And *that* allows
canon to stand without turning Avon into an idiot... :)
> > Or to put it another way I've seen various
> > premise C's: "Avon really is an idealist, deep down, and *wants* to help
> > Blake destroy the Federation"
> Don't see that either.
I *have* seen it used in fanfic more than once, though.
> > or "Avon really does have a noble, caring
> > streak and would do the same for any of them."
>
> Avon doesn't have a noble, caring streak, but he is a decent human
> being. He would and does risk his life for people he cares about.
> Not just for Blake. Why do you think he risks his life for the
> others?
Because they are useful to him, because he feels a measure of
responsibility towards them, and because they're the only thing
resembling friends he's got. But I *still* see a difference between
the lengths he's prepared to go to for the rest of them and the
lengths he's prepared to go to for Blake. Or Anna, of course. Here's
an interesting question: Do you think Avon would have undergone five
days of torture to get revenge on Tarrant's killer? Soolin's? He
certainly doesn't do anything like that for Gan's killer, or Cally's.
Some people mean more to him than others...
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"The Himalayas are quite tall at this time of the year."
-- Vila Restal, promoting Earth tourism, _Blake's 7_
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:11:20 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?)
Message-ID: <39F8F258.3761163F@sdc.org>
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Sally Manton wrote:
> Now Betty:
> <The impulse to revenge is normal, if not, IMO, laudable. I do regard what
> Avon did in "Rumours" as extreme. Disturbingly so.>
> Agreed, but for another reason ... they all know what the Federation can do
> to people's minds (Blake, Vila). *We* know even more (remember that machine
> that Avalon was hooked up to)? It just takes one person to recognise Avon
> and they're *all* in real trouble ...
Yes, this is a large part of what I had in mind, actually...
> And there's the over-riding importance of the timing as well - what if the
> ship's discovered (they're orbiting Earth - the centre of the Federation*)
> and they have to run just when he needs then? What if they're attacked en
> masse? What if he breaks?
And it's not just that... Even if nothing goes wrong, there's an
inevitable time delay between when the signal cuts out and when the
others can show up. It's very short, admittedly... But in that short
amount of time, Avon comes very close to losing his eyes. And it
could equally well have been his life.
> One has to
> be grateful it is a once-off (or twice-off, with Anna) thing, because a
> character who was prepared to go to such lengths for every member of his
> crew would be somewhat nauseating and quite intolerable for me (I do not
> like plaster saints, no matter how leather-n-studded they come).
Amen to that!
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"The Himalayas are quite tall at this time of the year."
-- Vila Restal, promoting Earth tourism, _Blake's 7_
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:22:19 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?)
Message-ID: <39F8F4EB.9F5BDA2B@sdc.org>
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Responding to Sally, Carol wrote:
> > I will say it again (no matter who doesn't want to hear it again)
> > ... he has given his alleigance to the point he will die for the
> > man
>
> When did he give this allegiance and why?
Ah, that's the $64,000 question. I've already given some idea of *my*
take on the "why," I think (although probably pretty sketchily). As for
the "when," I'd say: gradually, and with considerable reluctance, but
nevertheless quite early on.
> > given his alleigance to the point he will die for the man (Hostage),
>
> Erp, that's a bit dramatic. There's no evidence to suggest that Avon
> thought he was going to die when he went down to Exbar.
It was a distinct possibility, though. And he definitely thought it
likely that he was going to die at Terminal.
> And there's the little matter of his phoning in certain information.
Which, IMO, was an incredibly risky and irrational thing to do.
> > carry
> > out the suicidal defence of the galaxy for the man (Star One),
>
> Avon has a personal stake in this one. If the Andromedans succeed, he'll be
> one of the losers. Even if Blake hadn't asked, I can't see Avon passing on
> this. Nor can I see Jenna or Cally passing.
I can't see Jenna or Cally passing, no. I can't see *Avon* agreeing
to it without being pushed, though. How is Avon one of the losers if
the Andromedans come in and destroy the Federation? The Federation
were Avon's enemies, anyway. Will flying around on the Liberator in
a galaxy inhabited by hostile Andromedans be any worse than doing so
in a galaxy inhabited by hostile humans? And why should he risk his
life protecting a galaxy full of people who never did anything for
him, anyway?
> > kill another crew member (Tarrant, Terminal)
>
> Since he didn't kill him, this is just supposition. I don't believe Avon
> would have pulled the trigger
I think he very well might have, but, you're right, we'll never really
know.
> While Cally and Tarrant
> initially think Avon's threat was serious, they change their minds pretty
> quickly. Tarrant makes a joke about Avon's threat to shoot them if they
> follow him to Terminal. Neither Cally or Tarrant are worried.
Hmm. It seemed like a very *nervous* sort of joke to me...
> If Avon was so protective of Blake, why did he leave him without back up or
> access to the teleport in GAMBIT?
He has a truly touching amount of faith in Orac, and was counting on
the plastic box to be able to teleport them out if they really needed
it. I don't think he really thought he was putting Blake and co. at
any greatly increased risk, actually.
> When, except in ORBIT, did Avon leave a shipmate in a hazardous situation?
Well, if it had been up to him, he would have turned back in
"Breakdown" once he realized the true extent of the danger, and let
Gan die. Just off the top of my head...
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"The Himalayas are quite tall at this time of the year."
-- Vila Restal, promoting Earth tourism, _Blake's 7_
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:35:14 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <39F8F7F2.B29BF184@sdc.org>
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Here I am, jumping in between Carol and Sally yet again, but, hey, my
Avon and Sally's Avon are practically identical... :)
Carol wrote:
> Sally dear, I've never asked you this particular question before. If you
> don't think you'll persuade me, regardless that it is a new question, think
> of it as persuading undecided voters. :)
Assuming there's any still reading this. :)
> Definitely different Avons. I have no problem that you prefer a different
> Avon, but I do admit to curiosity about how different your Avon is. I have a
> lot of trouble believing that someone who is the bastard you describe in
> regard to almost the entire universe becomes a veritable saint when it comes
> to Blake.
"A veritable saint?" [Snort] No, I certainly don't think he was
*that*. He was frequently nastier to Blake than to anyone else. He
made Blake's life even more difficult than Blake himself did. He
*killed* Blake, fer cryin' out loud! Avon was never, and in no way a
saint to *anybody*. But, IMO, he did care about Blake. A lot. Enough
to make him do ill-advised, irrational, risky things for him. Yes, that
seems a bit contradictory. I *said* I thought he was an extremely
complex person...
> Again, I ask why? Why would a man who is so indifferent to his
> fellow human beings change so drastically when it comes to Blake?
There's really two questions here, I think. "Why would a man who is so
indifferent to most of his fellow human beings feel so drastically
different when it comes to one particular human being?" and "Why
Blake?" I'm not entirely sure which one you're asking, and they're both
pretty complicated questions...
> I enjoy discussing the characters and what makes them tick. But I
> need canonical facts to do that. I'm not interested in "he is; he isn't."
Unfortunately, canonical facts only take you so far... If you want to
go any farther, you need to come up with a theory based on those
canonical facts, and it's the realm of theory that we've gotten into
now...
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"The Himalayas are quite tall at this time of the year."
-- Vila Restal, promoting Earth tourism, _Blake's 7_
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 00:35:17 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?) (getting even longer)
Message-ID: <00e401c03fd3$5a3efa60$20684e0c@dshilling>
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Replying to Betty and Carol:
> > Anna refused to talk. Or so her brother believed. From "Countdown":
> > "They kept her under interrogation for nearly a week. They tried
> > everything but she never broke. If she had spoken, told them what they
> > wanted to know, she'd be alive now." Presumably "what they wanted to
> > know" was Avon's whereabouts, or possibly details about his plans.
Actually I think what they wanted to know was where the money was.
>
> Seriously, Orac told Avon that Blake was a bounty hunter. Blake looked
like
> a rough and tumble bounty hunter. That's the type of betrayal Avon would
> perceive he's encountering: Blake as a bounty hunter. Bounty hunters
don't
> normally have a base and large staffs. That overhead would kill their
profit
> margin.
Unless of course it was amazon.com's latest business model.
-(Y)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 00:40:39 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner?
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Katie said in reply to Natasa:
>
> "Oh no, you never did." At the end he chose *not* to quit in the
manner
> of his death. Probably enjoyed the absurdity of it all...
The unique quality of B7 is its endless parade of rock-and-hard-place
choices. If, for the sake of the argument, Avon had accepted the intention
of Blake's explanation rather than its text, and told him, "Love, I've come
through all the fires of Hell to be with you again," then he would have
spent
his last 13 seconds of life much happier (or 50% happier, 50% furious at
Blake for making it so difficult) his life expectancy wouldn't have been any
greater--they all would have died anyway.
-(Y)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 00:44:55 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Richard III and all that
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Natasa suggested an Avon/Del Grant rather than
Hamlet/Laertes graveside punch-up. Well,
depressed chap who spent a lot of time in graduate
school, loads of black gear...And really, everything
Avon ever says is a soliloquy, because no one ever
pays a blind bit of attention.
However, on a more symbolic level, Hamlet =
Blake, born to set right the times out of joint,
Claudius = Servalan, killer and usurper.
-(Y)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 00:59:23 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: "B7 Lyst" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?) (getting even longer)
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Betty said:
> [Shrug] As I know I've said before, it seems to me the only explanation
> that makes any sense at all of many of his actions. Like the way he's
> constantly putting himself in danger for Blake...
"Falling in love again...
What am I to do?
Never wanted to.
Can't help it."
>
> Yes, I think this is a good point. If you accept premise A ("Avon cared
> deeply about Blake"), you're sort of forced into premise B ("Avon had
> emotional problems that would let him accept that he cared deeply about
> Blake
Typo (Freudian slip?) s/b "Avon had emotional problems that would NOT
let him accept..." unless My Client agrees with me that attachment to
Blake is a sign of poor judgment or worse.
Don't forget Duel: Avon as shop steward of the Blokes' Union--why do you
have to be irrational to prove you care, or have to prove it at all? And at
least some of the discussants here are let's-talk-about-it Americans
and not stiff-upper-lip Brits.
-(Y)
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End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #300
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