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blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 88
Today's Topics:
[B7L] Horizon 2.0a
Re: [B7L] horizon
[B7L] Oops (re Horizon).
Re: [B7L] Horizon 2.0/*Wild* accusations!
[B7L] Re:Horizon
Re: [B7L] horizon
Re: [B7L] Re: Guest Stars
Re: [B7L] Avon and That Image
Re: [B7L] Horizon 2.0a
Re: [B7L] Horizon 2.0a
[B7L] Horizon...
[B7L] Horizon
[B7L] Horizon
Re: [B7L] Horizon...
[B7L] B7 information.
Re: [B7L] Horizon
Re: [B7L] Horizon
[B7L] Horizon...
Re: [B7L] Mary Poppins on the Liberator
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:21:56 GMT
From: "David Fielding" <davidft10@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Horizon 2.0a
Message-ID: <20000328202156.25871.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Here’s some supporting proof to show that Diane desires “Total control”
In case anyone has forgotten.
-----Original Message-----
From: Diane Gies (Horizon)
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 1999 3:58 PM
To: kathy@songbird.nascr.net
Cc: tuckers@easynet.co.uk; gillian@mpuddle.freeserve.co.uk;
jager@clara.net; paula.robinson@rcn.org.uk; rae@clara.net;
sue.cowley@bbc.co.uk; JudithSmith@csl-deloitte.co.uk
Subject: Horizon policy decision
Dear All,
At various times I think I've spoken to you all about my feelings on Fan
Porn, particularly relating to 'adult pictures' and accessability to the
uninitiated and recently I've been more and more unhappy about how easy it
is to find fan-porn on the internet, & how easy it is to stumble over adult
zines at guest-conventions.
B7 was always a PG show and whilst I've no objection to fans wanting to
write adult stuff and sell it to other consenting adults in private, I don't
think the vast industry in fan-porn is healthy. It is promoted as a
mainstream interest and as something new fans should be told about as soon
as they are told about 'regular' stuff, which I don't agree with. The idea
of our own Ultra 1 was to have adult stories, with non-PG rated sex scenes
as part of a proper dramatic story (plus humorous little romps) but some of
what's out there is so far removed from anything resembling B7 as we know it
that I don't believe it should be so easily accessible.
I can't do anything about what other people sell, and I wouldn't want to
try, but I don't see why Horizon should help them. Therefore, I would like
to implement a new advertising policy which would broadly encompass the
following points:
Advertising of fanzine Dealers in Orac's Oddments. Up till now we've been
advertising, for free, stuff sold by any club member, whilst asking them to
reciprocally advertise us. We have no way of knowing whether these people
DO advertise us and I've discovered for sure that Judith Proctor certainly
doesn't in any of her printed literature though she does on her website.
The new policy would be that free for sale ads would only cover 'one off'
sales (selling off a collection, or one item) rather than for people who
trade as fan or pro dealers. We could then have an advertising fee for any
dealers still wanting to advertise up to a maximum of xxxx words (yet to be
decided, but enough to give their name, address and extremely brief
description of what they sell - eg. B7/ST/DW fanzines or X Files & other
Trading Cards, or B7 audio tapes, etc.) We could waive the fee at our
discretion if the items were all being sold for charity (requiring proof) or
they guaranteed in writing that they were reciprocally advertising us.
Further, they would be required to sign something to confirm that they did
not produce, or agent for others, any B7 fan fiction containing 'adult'
artwork. If they want to sell adult fiction, that's up to them, but the
majority of the cast hate the idea of explicit artwork and so do I, as you
all know. We would obviously have to advise them what we considered
'explicit', eg. no nudity, and no portraits that would look out of place in
a PG rated zine and cause anyone to think "ey-up... bet they're going to be
having a **** any minute now".
Conventions - I don't believe that guests and adult artwork mix. I don't
want Horizon to advertise any convention that has a B7 guest unless they
confirm in writing that there will be a ban on dealers selling adult B7
fiction with explicit art content and, further, that any adult fiction
without such pictures will not be openly displayed on the sales table but
will be hidden away behind and anyone wanting to view it will have to ask
for it, rather than having it in a box on the table marked 'adult' - thus
creating a knowledge that such things exist in the person passing by.
What happens with other fandoms I can't be bothered to worry about, but
since the B7 people are our Honorary Members, I want to at least do
something in our own 'universe'. If they don't have a B7 guest, fine, let
them do what they like. Those of you who were with me at Cult TV 2 weeks
ago will know how upset I was to find that Judith Proctor was blatantly
selling such stuff, including a quite disgusting zine with graphic sexual
artwork, from her table top, whilst sitting selling photos & together again
tapes next to Paul at his autograph session (courtesy of Sheelagh Wells
arranging this). She was overheard the next day by someone - who doesn't
wish her name mentioned - having a conversation that clearly indicated that
she was well aware how he would feel if he knew what she was selling (along
the lines of "gosh you were so lucky sitting with him all that time..."
"yes, lucky he didn't know what I was selling..." ) That wasn't the exact
conversation, but that's what was basically happening. I can't stop her
selling this stuff, and to all intents and purposes laughing in his face
about it, but I don't see why I should make it easy for her. She was also
making the point while she was selling the tapes that "Oh, you can't get
these from Horizon any more..." which didn't help to endear her to me, but
that's another story.
Apart from dealers conditions at a con with a B7 guest, there'd also need to
be a condition about the art/model displays at the convention (ie.
prohibiting any 'adult' art being displayed, even if it was 'hidden').
Websites - from Horizon's links section, you only effectively need to do 3
quick 'clicks' through Proctor's site to get into reading X-rated excerpts
from zines on her own site. In several cases there isn't even any warning
and depending on which bits of her site you start off reading, you don't
necessarily get an explanation of what slash fiction, for example, means so
the non-fan who has done a search for Blake's 7 can come into the Official
Fan Club Site (us!), go through to Proctor's site and immediately be told
that there's loads of fiction featuring explicit sex scenes between main
characters. It's one thing for people to go and buy these zines, where they
have to make some effort and conscious decision to buy, but if it's just
sitting there on the internet, I think this is awful and there seems to be
so much of it.
Proctor's site links to several others which have the most unbelievably
disgusting porn stories, without even any warnings in some cases (though
others say "Hey, if you're not over 18, go away now" which is really going
to deter the average 13/14 year old playing with dad's computer, isn't it?)
Again, I can't stop them doing this, but I can refuse to link Horizon's site
to any site that has X-rated material anywhere on it, or that links to a
site that does. So I'd be wanting to email all the sites we currently link
with issuing them with an agreement to sign or we can just remove them and
refuse to mention they exist in any shape or form.
Some of you may agree with me 101% (I know some of you do) but others of you
may not agree at all, or think I'm taking this 'crusade' too far. I want to
know what ALL of you think, please, as soon as possible because I think this
is very important, and I don't want to leave things as they are for much
longer. Do you think the conditions I wish to implement are reasonable? If
not, what - if anything - do you suggest.
I'm sending a non-email copy of this to Margaret, Valerie Guy and to Claire
Saunders who I've just co-opted onto the committee to do 'Finding Publicity
Photos' . I'll leave Edna out of it as she doesn't have any idea this even
exists and at 70+ years I don't think she needs to. Obviously Andy and Alan
won't be asked!! I'd appreciate you not discussing this with anyone
outside the committee until the issue has been resolved.
Have a nice day!!
xx Diane
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:42:51 +0100
From: JMR <jager@clara.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] horizon
Message-Id: <E12a3wg-000FMJ-00@oracle.clara.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 16:11 28/03/00 , Emily Darby wrote:
(snip)
>I which case i would question why you feel the need to
>mention it and why if you are not a member of the
>Horizon committee do you have access to the member
>records ? or are these public property and available
>on request
>
>I don't mean this to sound as if i am attacking you i
>just cannot understand why you felt the need to say
>that we were not members.
>
>Emily
>
I was merely pointing out that neither "Horizon", nor "Deliverance" have
any record of the individuals "Emily Darby", "David Fielding" or "Mat
Shayde", which makes one wonder *why* they are complaining about things
that don't affect them.
Of course, if they are bona fide members/attendees choosing to hide behind
anonymous Hotmail/Yahoo accounts, then one simply wonders why they feel the
need to conceal their identities. Surely everyone should be prepared to
acknowledge and stand by what they say, write or do? Or perhaps I should
have used a Hotmail account to make the observation, rather than posting
under my real name and email address?
And the question of access is nowhere near as sinister as certain parties
are making it out to be. I stated that I wasn't on the "Horizon" committee
- I'm not. But I was. Just as I was one of the ConCom for the "Deliverance
98" convention (and the "Who's 7" conventions). As such, I have had
perfectly legitimate access.
Stating that "x" is not a member is rather different from stating "y" *is*
a member and thus publicly exposing their - shock! - guilty secret: that
they belong to a fanclub and/or attended a convention.
Judith
http://home.clara.net/jager
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:11:08 -0500
From: Meredith Dixon <dixonm@pobox.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Oops (re Horizon).
Message-ID: <2db2es07vqeqfu7ncea77n2oumn5k6u6no@4ax.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Now I'm doing it. :> Diva wasn't the person who'd looked up all
the Horizon memberships. Diva, I'm sorry for the misattribution.
It was a long thread.
--
Meredith Dixon <dixonm@pobox.com>
Check out *Raven Days*, for victims and survivors of bullying.
And for those who want to help.
http://www.pobox.com/~dixonm/raven.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:17:17 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Emily=20Darby?= <emilydarby@yahoo.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon 2.0/*Wild* accusations!
Message-ID: <20000328221717.27413.qmail@web4001.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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--- Diva <diva@tn.prestel.co.uk> wrote:
> Nice try, but I'm not Diane and I'm not her lover -
> ROTFLMAO - I think
> you've been reading too much slash mate! That really
> is funny though...While
> we are on wild guesses, are you and Emily the two
> secret identities of Andy
> Hopkinson?
>
For the record i have never met Andy Hopkinson , i
only know of him through reading articles about him or
by him in various publications and by virtue of the
fact that he helped to create the fantastic liberator
set that was used at the Deliverance Con.
I don't like being accused of this whole thing being a
set up because i am assuming that is the implication
behind this.
As i have stated before i have no personal axe to
grind and i was merely trying to get a debate going, i
am a huge believer in fandom being a good place to be
with people enjoying themselves through a shared
interest , in fact Deliverance was one of the best
conventions i have been to, with some of the best
dispalys and panels i have seen in a long time
HOWEVER i still maintain that 2 years for videos in
unaccepatable and that was part of my reasons behind
starting the debate, i wanted to know what other
people think and ultimatley thi should help Horizon
better serve the members, if we all tell Horizon what
we want it will make for a better fan club although
sadly what i am hearing is that that is not what
horizon is about anymore
Please tell me that Horizon is not as it is portratyed
to be, surely the other members of the committee must
have something to say in defense of their club????????
Emily
____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1990 00:44:28 -0000
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re:Horizon
Message-ID: <000001bf989f$74d1ed00$0f5e063e@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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From: Neil Faulkner
>Rather than make lots of posts replying to various comments, I'll try and
>slap it all down in one go.
Good idea, I'll do the same (hope I don't hit 25 k !). Clearly, I have
changed my mind since last night (the posting from which only went out this
evening).
Emily
> i was personnaly very very disappointed with the
> latest offering from Horizon this time and i was
> interested in hearing what other people thought
> i know that there are a lot of Horizon members on list
> and i was intereseted in their views.
A perfectly reasonable thing to do. I thought it was OK, in the
circumstances. Posting that view appears to have contributed to fuelling the
current discussion. Supporting Horizon does not seem very fashionable on
this list.
Neil.
>The fact that so many people have publicly voiced their dissatisfaction
with
>Horizon (David, Mat, Emily, Una, Calle and I readily add myself) suggests
>that there is something wrong with the way the club operates.
and I would like to know the reasons. But I would also like them to
acknowledge that other people may have different views. So whilst it is
valuable to let us know why you have left Horizon so remaining members can
review thier membership in an informed fashion, please don't try and bring
the whole thing down with insubstantiated accusations, personal attacks and
general bitching.
Judith
> ... to know that no-one of that name is, nor has ever been, a member of
Horizon.
The point is, you didn't like it, you left - fine. But respect the fact that
people have different views and some people just might want Horizon to carry
on as it is. Unless your a member of the San Fransisco oil painting society,
you don't really have a mandate to critise it, this is not government or a
national institution, its just a club. BUT, I do value your opinion as to
why you all left (or have not joined) provided it is objective. Particularly
if you think that damage is being done to B7 fandom.
Mat
> he has never been a Horizon member and has read someone else's magazines.
Emily
> Does it matter ?
Yes it does.
Diva,
>there are still lots of B7 fans who aren't online. For those people,
Horizon may be their only source of B7 info.
Diva
>A
>discussion about the conduct of the official B7 fanclub clearly falls
>within these limits, in my opinion.
Provided it is a discussion and not a slanging match.
Diva
>I'm suggesting that people ought to have the decency to refrain from
trivialising someone else's health problems.
I agree.
Diva,
>As I understand it, Andy Hopkinson and Alan Stevens were given
>responsibility for some or all of the production of Horizon 40.
and so the health problems should not be an issue at all, because deputies
were appointed.
Neil
> I agree with those who
>assert that Diane attempts to exert a more or less total control over
>Horizon and especially the content of its publications.
This is worrying, if it is true.
Neil
> Garry 'Dreamwatch' Leigh, who ultimately took
>Horizon to court and effectively won in an out-of-court settlement
Ooch. And Horizon always made such a point of copyright and chasing people
who were selling stuff etc.
>- not
>that Horizon's publications made any mention of these legal wranglings,
>though I believe such silence was part of the settlement).
So we should not have mentioned it in public really then !
Mat
>A lot of the comment has been criticism of the way the Horizon performs and
>what it produces. Are you suggesting that it should be immune from
>criticism? That it's members should just pay their money and accept any old
>tat that the club produces?
It should not be immune from critis, but the first port of call should be
the club itself, not this list.
Some members may just think that the "old tat" is actually quite good value,
and are happy to pay for it. Vive la difference.
Mat
> Dorian - "You mean you're here by choice?"
Exactly, people are still in Horizon by choice.
Diva,
>If you live near enough to a committee member, why not
>help with the practical side of things?
Mat
>assuming that you would be allowed to. I'm afraid that Horizon has become
more and more of an insular clique over the last few years.
Neil,
>Basically, my own experience of Horizon and Diane leads me to believe that
>all the accusations of her dictatorialism re Horizon are well founded, that
>criticism of the way the club operates is equally well founded and
perfectly
>legitimate,
Is this a recent thing ? Mat suggests it might be. We were warmly welcomed
into the fold a few years ago when I had more time, and the only reason I am
did not become more involved is that I found myself with less time. I was
certsinly asked to join in on certain things to do with running the club.
>and that exhortations to start a 'revolution' and wrest control
>of Horizon from Diane are just so much wasted hot air
Not if you do it sensibly. If Horizon has only two members, and a new club
has thousands, what is going to happen ?
Calle also said:
>I run this list. What have *you* done?
Thanks Calle, and all the Web site people out there, and Horizon (IMO). *I*
have not *done* anything because I am satisfied with the way things are.
Diva
>but I do think that when people stoop to nasty remarks about her
>health or when they say things like "I've seen behaviour from Horizon that
I
>really don't like, and as a consequence of that I will never lift a finger
>to help them" then that is inappropriate and also that the people reading
it
>are unlikely to take your point of view too seriously.
Exactly, express your dissatisfaction, bring evidence to the discussion, but
keep it objective when it involves real people. Save the bias for discussing
the episodes and Avon drool.
Emily
>Andy had done loads of work for Diane/Horizon
>and i wondered myself what had caused the break up,
>all i can say is that it is very sad day for B7 fandom
>when fans lose friendship with one another it only
>makes for a poorer fandom in my opinion
It certainly is a sad fact. And if Andy or Diane feels able to enlighten
us......
Diva
>I suggested is that if you have problems with Diane's involvement in
Horizon you discuss it with Diane rather than discussing it behind her back
and then perhaps give other fans a summary of the discussion.
Could we perhaps review the FACTS
The Horizon newsletters are very proffessionally produced. Infinitely better
than other fan clubs I could mention. Even 39.5 knocks spots of a lot of
other clubs offerings, not only in production quality but in content. Yes I
said content. Some clubs are even more out of date. 1 year old news ? How
about 17 year old news and an editorial !
Diane has had health problems, and arranged for somebody to take over
producing the magazine. Indeed a new team put out NL-39, people seemed to
like that. I met the guys responsible on a Theatre trip, and everything
seemed fine.
Same sort of arrangement is put in place for NL-40, maybe a different team,
maybe the same, I can't recal.
For some reason the key people appear to have left Horizon, so no NL-40.
End of Facts.
Now we have wild speculation about personality clashes, editorial
interference, work commitments or whatever. Unless the people involved speak
up, thats all it is, speculation.
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:23:52 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Emily=20Darby?= <emilydarby@yahoo.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] horizon
Message-ID: <20000328222352.21632.qmail@web4003.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
--- JMR <jager@clara.net> wrote:
>
> I was merely pointing out that neither "Horizon",
> nor "Deliverance" have
> any record of the individuals "Emily Darby", "David
> Fielding" or "Mat
> Shayde", which makes one wonder *why* they are
> complaining about things
> that don't affect them.
at the risk of repeating myself, i am using a web
based account because i am away from home and cannot
access my home account.
i am now beginning to wonder if i should reveal my
real name..should i be concerned about reprisals ?
No surely not , fandom is a fun place to be right ?
WRONG, it feels bloody uncomfortable right now
but as soon as i get access from my home account and
not through a mobile i will continue the debate
<remainder snipped>
Emily Darby
____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:25:10 +0100
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Guest Stars
Message-ID: <000a01bf989f$e6c8bb00$0f5e063e@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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From: Claudia Mastroianni <
>"Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com> wrote:
>: I spotted 1 and 3 (HHGTTG & SW-TESB) but 2 sounds interesting for some
>: universes. Unfortunately of course, we have subsequent Canon to go by. In
>: Cygnus Alpha, it takes about 10 milliseconds for a teleported individual
to
>: explode, not fail to materialise cause there is no dirt around to form
into
>: matter, but fully materialise and explode. So in the B7 universe we are
left
>: with 3 and 4.
>
>I've never had the impression that Vargas exploded because that's what
>happens to one in a vacuum. Rather, it had to do with the teleport
>range. Hence the handy bit of of exposition earlier in the episode:
>
Well spotted. I forgot that.
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:26:01 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and That Image
Message-ID: <200003281726_MC2-9EFC-63F6@compuserve.com>
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charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
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Sally wrote:
>And I'll offer no 5 - the obvious one, I guess. Yes, he loved Anna.
>He actually loved The Brother, dead or alive, more.
Dr Bashir would probably say Avon just liked him a bit more. Or at any
rate spent more time playing silly games with him in the holosuite.
As Spacefall happened to be the last episode I ever saw, so that my
knowledge of it originally depended on Trevor Hoyle's rather wild
paraphrase, I originally constructed a theory that Avon really did see
Anna, but felt it was too painful to start explaining who she was (and what
business of theirs was it anyway?), and therefore decided to refer to a
brother instead. This theory was smashed rather comprehensively when I saw
the episode and found out that the brother really did appear on screen, but
I still think it rather a pity.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:44:01 -0500
From: Meredith Dixon <dixonm@pobox.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon 2.0a
Message-ID: <t9d2escvnle15gs30is032jsfodo9b9j18@4ax.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:21:56 GMT, David Fielding wrote:
>Here’s some supporting proof to show that Diane desires “Total control”
>In case anyone has forgotten.
It was a violation of netiquette to repost that bit of private
mail when it was first posted, as I said at the time, and IMO
it's still a violation of netiquette. At least this time the
listowner didn't do it.
--
Meredith Dixon <dixonm@pobox.com>
Check out *Raven Days*, for victims and survivors of bullying.
And for those who want to help.
http://www.pobox.com/~dixonm/raven.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:49:57 -0500
From: Meredith Dixon <dixonm@pobox.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon 2.0a
Message-ID: <vdd2es4vnlacmvf55gcbktr3ba0m9mah2u@4ax.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:21:56 GMT, David Fielding wrote:
>>Here’s some supporting proof to show that Diane desires “Total control”
>>In case anyone has forgotten.
>It was a violation of netiquette to repost that bit of private mail when
> it was first posted, as I said at the time, and IMO it's still a violation
>of netiquette. At least this time the listowner didn't do it.
I think I'd better stop posting for the day; I'm obviously more
spaced than I thought. First I got muddled about who'd
identified people as non-Horizon members, and now I've just
implied more than I had intended to imply. I realized that I
hadn't said what I meant right after I hit the "send" button.
For anyone who wasn't there, Calle himself did not originate the
post of the private mail which David Fielding just reposted. The
mail, sent to the list by someone else, failed to make it onto
the list for technical reasons, so Calle, as listowner, retrieved
it and reposted it.
I still think he shouldn't have reposted it, since it had failed
to make it to the list, but I didn't mean to make it sound as
though he'd sent it to the list in the first place.
--
Meredith Dixon <dixonm@pobox.com>
Check out *Raven Days*, for victims and survivors of bullying.
And for those who want to help.
http://www.pobox.com/~dixonm/raven.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:09:39 GMT
From: "David Fielding" <davidft10@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Horizon...
Message-ID: <20000328230939.47612.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Judith wrote:
>I was merely pointing out that neither "Horizon", nor "Deliverance" have
>any record of the individuals "Emily Darby", "David Fielding" or "Mat
>Shayde", which makes one wonder *why* they are complaining about things
>that don't affect them.
I can only speak for myself, but as stated in my very first post, I get my
newsletter second-hand.
I'm not a member, but it does affect me as a Blake's 7 fan. There are
hundreds if not thousands out there who are not members but they see the NL
because their husband, wife, child or even grandmother are members and
don't selfishly hog the NL to themselves. There are very few B7
publications out there. My concern is that the self styled "Official"
Blake's 7 Appreciation Society has, through lack of competition has become
stale, pompous and corrupt.
>Of course, if they are bona fide members/attendees choosing to hide behind
>anonymous Hotmail/Yahoo accounts, then one simply wonders why they feel the
>need to conceal their identities. Surely everyone should be prepared to
>acknowledge and stand by what they say, write or do? Or perhaps I should
.have used a Hotmail account to make the observation, rather than posting
>under my real name and email address?
You mean like "Diva" who is quite evidently Diane Gies.
>And the question of access is nowhere near as sinister as certain parties
>are making it out to be. I stated that I wasn't on the "Horizon" committee
>- I'm not. But I was. Just as I was one of the ConCom for the "Deliverance
>98" convention (and the "Who's 7" conventions). As such, I have had
>perfectly legitimate access.
That really is pathetic.
Are you seriously trying to tell us that you have memorised two databases
full of thousands of names? (You were in charge of zine/script orders. You
were last mention in issue 38 nearly two years ago. Even if you had
memorised all those names isn't it just possible that new people have joined
since then?)
You and Diane have been scouring the databases, why don't you just admit it,
instead of hiding behind this preposterous lie.
David F.
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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:37:36 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Horizon
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0328233736-c72Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Hello,
I was told that Lightergate and other stuff had reared it's head so I've grabbed
the painkillers and returned to Lysator for a while.
Here's my tuppence worth on the bits I've read so far.
Diva said:
> As I understand it, Andy Hopkinson and Alan Stevens were given responsibility
> for some or all of the production of Horizon 40. It is for this reason that I
> asked for Andy's comments, as I had hoped we could clarify this point. I also
> felt that if Horizon are choosing to discuss their side of the story in public
> then Andy ought to have an opportunity to do the same. As I said, I am not
> interested in a slanging match, but I agree with Calle that Horizon can
> reasonably be discussed in this forum - provided that that discussion is about
> facts rather than abuse.
It seems to me that Diane sensibly chose not to air details of the dispute in
public. I would guess that she felt a slanging match would not be good for
fandom as a whole. Andy (who has always struck me as a mild, peaceful type)
respected her approach and chose not to be vindictive by airing his version of
affairs in public. He's on this list and could very easily have posted
something critical of Diane and of Horizon in response to her comment in 39.5.
I expect he'd happily give his version of events if asked to do so privately
(even as Diane did), but do we really want a long drawn out 'he said, she said'
dispute here on the Lyst?
Remember, when you know someone (as I assume you know Diane) you only hear one
side of the story. I've heard the other side, and some of it is not very
pretty. One or two parts of it affect me personally, and I still intend to keep
quiet if possible, becuase I honestly feel the good of the fandom is more
important than my desire to strangle Diane for something she did back in '98
(and undoubtedly assumed I'd never find out about).
>
> I have yet to hear or see any proof that Diane takes "total control". If
> people have anything of substance to say, and can support it with proof then
> fair enough.
The fact that the Horizon committee are unelected and are appointed/dismissed by
Diane probably says it all really. (As a couple of ex-committee members can
easily verify)
The day Horizon has an elected committee is the day I'll believe Diane doesn't
have 'total control'.
>
> I don't know how Diane feels about being discussed behind her back, but I do
> think that when people stoop to nasty remarks about her health or when they
> say things like "I've seen behaviour from Horizon that I really don't like,
> and as a consequence of that I will never lift a finger to help them" then
> that is inappropriate and also that the people reading it are unlikely to take
> your point of view too seriously
Diane had no compunctions whatsoever about slandering me behind my back, so I
have remarkably little sympathy here. (The relevent memo has just been reposted
- new Lyst members may wish to see the archives for my response)
>
> It just sounds like the kind of bitching and rumours that are all too
> pervasive in fandom right now. It is for exactly that reason that I chose not
> to repeat here the rumours I have heard about Andy - I recognise that they are
> merely rumours, and I'd prefer that he posted his own point of view so that we
> can discuss something more concrete than gossip.
Sensible not to repeat rumours. Not so sensible to invite something that will
probably end up as a public mud-slinging match regardless of how pure the
original intentions are on both sides.
Marian said:
>
> Personally I was very impressed with H39 (I joined last year) and am looking
> forward to H40. All right, it's a bit late, but that means we don't have to
> pay that often. :-)
H39 was the result of a lot of work by of Andy Hopkinson and Alan Stevens. They
were responsible for most of the work on Horizon 38 and 39 which I think are
widely recognised as being of a higher standard than the newsletters that came
before them.
Emily said:
>
> I would think that he does not want to get involved, the newsletter implies
> that there has been a big problem, the comment regarding if you want to see
> the correspondance please make an appt with Diane (not quoted complete)
> implies to me that there has been a falling out big time and she is not
> prepared to say why which i guess it her perogative however i would think that
> the majority of members would like to know
I've seen the fallout from one fan war and a couple of fairly serious dust-ups.
I have no desire to see it happen again. Sometimes, it really is better to
leave things alone. Sometimes, when you do know everything, it merely leaves
you disillusioned and distressed. Major arguments simply cause people to drop
out and move to a less-distressing fandom. Much though I disagree with Diane as
a rule, I think she made the right decision here. She's seen the fallout of fan
wars too.
Andrew Ellis said:
>
> Actually I did have something to say, but I've just deleted it, 'cause I think
> we should concentrate on the positive side of things, especially with these
> excellent repeats around, and fascinating "first impressions" to read.
Hear hear! Mission to Destiny next Saturday. Agatha Christie has not lived in
vain!
Judith Rolls:
> Of course, if they are bona fide members/attendees choosing to hide behind
> anonymous Hotmail/Yahoo accounts, then one simply wonders why they feel the
> need to conceal their identities. Surely everyone should be prepared to
> acknowledge and stand by what they say, write or do?
Including Diva?
(I don't think she is Diane - you said she wasn't a long time ago and I accept
your word.)
Judith Proctor (my real name as everyone knows)
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:05:08 GMT
From: "Andrew Michael Spencer" <stickman1968@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Horizon
Message-ID: <20000329000508.3296.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Hi,
It's all getting a bit serious, Emily Darby asked what we all thought
of the latest Horizon newsletter and the response's seem to be getting a
little bit scary!
Hopefully all this discussion\criticism about Horizon will have some
positive result's for Blake's 7 fandom, one way or another.
In the final anayalses surely Blake's 7 fandom is primarily about having
fun and celebrating one of your favourite programs.
It doesn't appear to be much fun to me at the moment…….
By the way it is GREAT to have Blake's 7 back on the BBC. Apologies to
overseas list member's, (who I assume, for the most part, can't get BBC2),
but it has been an absolute thrill to watch Blake's 7 and experience it the
way I did when I was ten.
Enough of the nostalgia, I'll be remembering the first time I saw Star Wars
next then there was the first time I……(never mind!)
Andy.M.Spencer (my real name)
It's daft to have to state this, but as it seems important to some people.
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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 01:34:05 +0100
From: "Diva" <diva@tn.prestel.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon...
Message-ID: <002701bf9916$80a217a0$f793fea9@diva>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>You mean like "Diva" who is quite evidently Diane Gies.
As I've said, I'm not Diane - or her lover!
Diva@tn.prestel.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:47:35 GMT
From: "Andrew Michael Spencer" <stickman1968@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] B7 information.
Message-ID: <20000329004735.75354.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Hi,
Just received an email from a friend of mine who works at the BBC (name
dropping I know!) I thought it might be of interest..
.. Saturday's Blake's 7 (first one I've managed to see by the way) received
4 calls of praise to the duty log last weekend- each calling it
"excellent".
Doesn't sound like many but people don't tend to ring in to praise
things
unless they feel very strongly about them! (they'll ring in to complain
about the slightest little thing though!)
The episode he was talking about was Seek-Locate-Destroy, 4 people doesn't
sound like very many to me. Let's try and improve that number for next time.
I'll try and find out the number of logged calls and post them on the lyst
next week.
Andy Hopkinson made a posting to the lyst a several weeks ago which told us
how to contact the Duty Officer at the BBC. I have reproduced part of that
post below.
Andy wrote:
So, this is to everyone.
Don't just sit on your arse and wait for someone else to call, pick up
the
phone and do it yourself...
BBC Information Line 08700 100 222, and ask to speak to the Duty
Officer.
Hope this helps,
Andrew.
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:05:17 +0100
From: JMR <jager@clara.net>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon
Message-Id: <E12a6xN-000LMr-00@oracle.clara.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 00:37 29/03/00 , Judith Proctor wrote:
>Judith Rolls:
>
>> Of course, if they are bona fide members/attendees choosing to hide behind
>> anonymous Hotmail/Yahoo accounts, then one simply wonders why they feel the
>> need to conceal their identities. Surely everyone should be prepared to
>> acknowledge and stand by what they say, write or do?
>
>Including Diva?
>(I don't think she is Diane - you said she wasn't a long time ago and I
accept
>your word.)
If Diva chooses to preserve her anonymity, then the consensus of the list
would seem to indicate that she has as much or as little right to do so as
everyone else apparently using alternate names here. I have already said
that I believe one should have the courtesy and courage to use one's real
name, particularly if making personal attacks. But that, as they say, is
just MHO.
I, if you remember, entered this debate by merely pointing out that despite
the claims made, the names given were not names of "Horizon" members or
"Deliverance" attendees. It wasn't until I was attacked for making this
(true) observation that I suggested that perhaps people should have the
courage to correctly identify themselves rather than continue sniping from
the shadows.
I'm glad you remember Diva from discussions that took place a couple of
years ago on this list, as it saves me from pointing out that she hasn't
mysteriously appeared from nowhere - making David Fielding's "welcome"
rather superfluous. Diva, as you will doubtless remember from previous
posts, is not Diane, but was actually one of several Events Managers at
"Deliverance". Knowing her (which I do), she is probably vastly amused at
the mistake. Whether Diane would be as amused by the mistake/accusation, I
have no idea.
Judith
http://home.clara.net/jager
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:29:09 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon
Message-ID: <20000329012909.50683.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>>At 00:37 29/03/00
My God, don't you lot have beds to go to? Go sleepybyes now, Northern
Hemisphereans. Sweet dreams of whoever takes your fancy!
Regards
Joanne
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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 01:42:29 GMT
From: "David Fielding" <davidft10@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Horizon...
Message-ID: <20000329014229.1018.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>“Diva” wrote
>Nice try, but I'm not Diane and I'm not her lover - ROTFLMAO - I think
>you've been reading too much slash mate! That really is funny
>though...While
>we are on wild guesses, are you and Emily the two secret identities of Andy
>Hopkinson?
>
>Oh, and btw Neil, when I said start the revolution, I wasn't meaning people
>should take over Horizon, but that if they had criticisms then they should
>turn them into practical action. Before anyone asks, I wasn't advocating
>Dana-style bomb-throwing either!
Sticking “mate” into your letter Diane doesn’t fool me.
You are as transparent as glass and your obsession with slash, passing the
buck, and Andy Hopkinson, proves it.
The problem with you, Diane, is that you’re always right, even when you’re
wrong. And if anyone disagrees with you then they are instantly catapulted
into outer darkness. Banned from the club, cast out, patronised, and told
that he/she can’t be a Blake’s 7 fan anymore. You’re a disgrace, but you
really can’t see anything wrong with your actions, can you? Slandering
Judith Proctor, attacking in print two ex-committee members, trying to
encourage people to make illegal copies of the “Shakedown” video, scouring
the confidential database to put addresses to names, using “editor’s
comments” to stamp your mark on every page of Horizon. This just reeks of
corruption.
I am David Fielding. If I were Andy Hopkinson, then I am sure that I could
be giving many more examples of your controlling and callous manner.
But what can be done?
If Neil Faulkner is right and “Diane Gies is Horizon” then it really is
pointless for anyone to write in and complain, because you, Diane, will just
rip up their letters and mark them down as troublemakers. I know for a fact
that over the years quite a lot of people have written in to say that there
should be some democracy involved in the running of the club, but all
they’ve received in reply is a deafening silence.
It’s not your club anyway Diane, it was Pat Thomas who first set it up and
I’m sure that if she came back now, she would be horrified to see what you
have done to it.
Horizon is no longer a fan club; a club run by fans, it has instead become a
Stalinist dictatorship.
David F.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:04:33 -0600 (CST)
From: Susan.Moore@uni.edu
To: BLAKES7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Mary Poppins on the Liberator
Message-id: <01JNKU99YO6A8YSGOW@uni.edu>
Mistral wrote:
I'd conjecture Dayna taught herself (or was
taught) in late childhood or early teens, before she was allowed
to spend much time outside, then set it aside when she got more
options. Then during a quiet spell on Liberator, she could have
picked it up again out of a sense of nostalgia or homesickness
(which would square with the lyrics of the song.)
I can see this. A lot of parents try to get their children to learn
an instrument , which the child may or may not resent. Picking up the
instrument on the Liberator could have been her way of remembering her
father. Maybe.
Susan M.
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #88
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