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blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 176
Today's Topics:
[B7L] Um, did not mean to offend A.S.K.S.
Re: [B7L] Um, did not mean to offend A.S.K.S.
Re: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable?
Re: [B7L] World Cup (was Epitaphs)
Re: [B7L] Blakes 7 : The World Cup Years
[B7L] chess
[B7L] control
Re: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable?
[B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable?
[B7L] Stuff
Re: [B7L] re: -Cuckoo Waltze
Re: [B7L] With the greatest respect to the Tarrant Nostra...
[B7L] Re: Blake's 7: The World Cup Years
[B7L] Bloody video tapes
Re: [B7L] Um, did not mean to offend A.S.K.S.
[B7L] B7 Writer's Group Round Robin
Re: [B7L] Bloody video tapes
[B7L] Avon and guilt--was mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable?
Re: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable?
[B7L] A reply to my own goofy post
[B7L] a reply to the post about Guilt
Re: [B7L] a reply to the post about Guilt
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 20:10:38 PDT
From: "Edith Spencer" <sueno45@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Um, did not mean to offend A.S.K.S.
Message-ID: <19980626031039.8280.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Um, Ok-
I did not mean to offend the members of ASKS nor anyone who is a
diehard Avonite. Goodness, no. I was just wondering about the
motivations behind the character. Blake is quite easy to figure out
actually- an educated idealist living in a decayed, corrupt, oppressive
system who wants to destroy it. An English Lenin or Trotsky, perhaps. (
It doesn't make Blake any less fascinating,btw)But I do wonder about the
Avon character- he was rendered very mysterious, very aloof, and there
is nothing more irrestible to many a viewer/reader of fiction than an
aloof, mysterious man or woman( I fell in love with Sherlock Holmes when
I was 13!) You always wonder what is the motivation behind such
characters and the choices that they make.
As for not being an empath...I admit it freely, or I would not be
part of the list :) But I think is part of the show many charms- and why
so many shows after it have copied many of its elements (ST:TNG, though
they would never admit it in a month of sundays, B5, V) the intricate
plotting, the interesting characters and rather good writing...for the
most part. Of course, the other charms are less edifying- Cally's
shocking thinness, Blake's Afro(Welshfro?) Jenna's outfits, Vila's
sideburns and Avon's, um, leather.
Edith Spencer
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:32:42 -0500
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Um, did not mean to offend A.S.K.S.
Message-Id: <199806260328.WAA00207@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Edith Spencer wrote:
>Blake is quite easy to figure out actually- an educated idealist living in
>a decayed, corrupt, oppressive system who wants to destroy it. An English
>Lenin or Trotsky, perhaps. ( It doesn't make Blake any less
>fascinating,btw)But I do wonder about the Avon character- he was rendered
>very mysterious, very aloof,
That's interesting. For me, Avon was the familiar character on the show,
the one whose type I recognized and had seen before in various
incarnations. I liked him, yes, but I didn't find him the least bit
mysterious or difficult to understand. It was Blake I always had a hard
time figuring out; I hadn't run into anything quite like him before.
- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@ti.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:25:14 EDT
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable?
Message-ID: <b5a75f18.359322a9@aol.com>
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I'm no "elder", but offhand I'd say Avon is NOT certifiable. His Gambit
escapade is intriguing, but there are possible explanations. 1) For all the
wealth onboard, Avon apparantly did not consider it "his"; look at his
attitude toward Liberator, Orac, etc. second, his answer when Vila asks why
someone would play the Klute suggests that he also enjoys high-stakes games.
His willpower seems to keep him from taking the suicidal risk, but he is
willing to gamble Vila's life. The millions he and vila earned were his, with
no attachment or debtedness to anyone else.
Quick comment on 4th season B7. given the events, and the pressure to
survive, it's amazing Avon didn't opt for the option most of the other
Federation geniuses did; i.e. lock himself away and hope no one found him. The
stress of the 'job' just brought out some idiosyncracies.
] Would comment more, but meds are working. Looking forward to more on this
thread. D. Rose
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:54:33 +0100
From: "Tom Forsyth" <Tom.Forsyth@btinternet.com>
To: "B7 Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] World Cup (was Epitaphs)
Message-Id: <E0ypM1b-0002XB-00@neodymium.btinternet.com>
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Alison P wrote:
> I can't believe I misspelled Romania. Also I can't believe that my new
> spellchecker didn't notice. Or does 'Rumania' actually mean something
> else?
A passionate interest in things with multiple stomachs?
....or in immature bipedal marsupials?
No, actually it's something disparaging said by house-hunting cockerneys -
"Gawd, issa bit pokey, innit? There ain't much..."
Tom Forsyth.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:26:04 +0100
From: "Tom Forsyth" <Tom.Forsyth@btinternet.com>
To: "B7 Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Blakes 7 : The World Cup Years
Message-Id: <E0ypM1Z-0002XB-00@neodymium.btinternet.com>
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Todd G asked (probably rhetorically, since he obviously knows the answer):
> "If the sum of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the square of the
> other two sides, why is a mouse when it spins?"
They only spin upside down. They're breakdancing.
Tom Forsyth.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 03:01:27 +1000
From: Roger the Shrubber <darrenro@ozonline.com.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] chess
Message-Id: <199806251701.DAA08444@budapest.ozonline.com.au>
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penny wrote
penny_kjelgaard@juno.com wrote:
>
> OK, you are playing chess and the game pieces morph into Blake's 7
> characers.
>
*******
well they have STAR TREK chess sets which cost God-knows-how-many hundreds of
dollars, so perhaps the Franklin Mint will one day produce a magnificent
gleaming B7 vs The Federation chess set.
Each piece might cost $49.95 but you get the board free !
___________________________________
from Darren r ..... Comments are welcome !
powerplay@cheerful.com
____________________________________
"OK, here's a disc sander, maybe ratchet up the manliness just a tad."
______________________________________
"The Administration is out to get me"
_______________________________________
"In the end, winning is the only safety"
_________________________________________
"While not detracting in any way from this store's right to examine all
baggage, I am
prepared to concede that our security man may have exceeded his authority in
napalming your grandmother"
________________________________________
________________________________________
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2634
Anxiety & Panic
_________________________________________
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2634/powerplay.html
Blake's 7 FAQ & free screen savers
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 03:01:24 +1000
From: Roger the Shrubber <darrenro@ozonline.com.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] control
Message-Id: <199806251701.DAA08440@budapest.ozonline.com.au>
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rob & ophelia wrote
>Another classic example of that was Blake's reaction in "Pressure
>Point" when he realised he hadn't found "Control" after all. Very
>hard-hitting.
Um. Or depending on your point of view, very very funny.<shrug> Sorry.
But the sight of Blake running into an empty room like a kid who finds
his lolly shop has turned into a school is guaranteed to make me giggle.
It's a bit of unfortunate histrionics in an otherwise excellent episode.
******
oooo no .... high drama as the dreams of a revolutionary come crashing down.
Serious stuff, no laughing matter IMO.
Perhaps the endless climbing down the same ladder and hanging from the monkey
-bars became a bit comical - "just change the color of the lighting then
they'll all think we're on a different level", but I suppose they really
wanted to give the impression that something significant was going to happen,
so it was worth a big build-up.
___________________________________
from Darren r ..... Comments are welcome !
powerplay@cheerful.com
____________________________________
"OK, here's a disc sander, maybe ratchet up the manliness just a tad."
______________________________________
"The Administration is out to get me"
_______________________________________
"In the end, winning is the only safety"
_________________________________________
"While not detracting in any way from this store's right to examine all
baggage, I am
prepared to concede that our security man may have exceeded his authority in
napalming your grandmother"
________________________________________
________________________________________
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2634
Anxiety & Panic
_________________________________________
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2634/powerplay.html
Blake's 7 FAQ & free screen savers
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:36:49 +0100
From: Lydia Carty <lydia.carty@virgin.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable?
Message-ID: <359379C1.6713@virgin.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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D. Rose wrote..
Quick comment on 4th season B7. given the events, and the pressure to
> survive, it's amazing Avon didn't opt for the option most of the other
> Federation geniuses did; i.e. lock himself away and hope no one found him.
Oh but he did think very seriously about it e.g "Breakdown" in series
one and then again in series two "Horizon" where Orac estimates he has a
high chance of survival just cruising around in the liberator on the
fringes of the Galaxy on his own. This is a key moment because he
several times tells the crew that he will not go to Horizon ("I'm not
stupid, I'm not expendable and i'm not going"). That he does go and
risk his life is his decision ... maybe like "Mission to Destiny" he
can't stand a mystery.
In the series four episode "Traitor" Vila urges they do a runner on the
basis of the Fed's rapid crushing of systems in their direction and Avon
shouts back "I won't run!". Avon is now as dedicated to the destruction
of the Federation as Blake was, but for less altruistic reasons "In the
end, winning is the only safety"...and perhaps his ultimate challenge.
Sadly, as he was pointed out about Blake, he couldn't win, no one could.
Aaargh..death by time..must dasharoonie.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 07:33:00 -0400
From: DJ Wight <Angnak@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable?
Message-ID: <199806260733_MC2-5166-CE42@compuserve.com>
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In the throes of what seems an interminable game of B7 e-mail
catch-up....
Edith wrote:
> Okay, so you all have probably discussed this to
> death, but I have to hear other opinions about it:
Was Avon crazy? ( or mad for our English cousins:)
...oh God, a thread I *can't* pass up, I just can't.
> I have seen several episodes where Avon goes on and on about
> money and money that, but in the second episode where the
> original crew gets on the liberator and Avon discovers wealth
> beyond that of the banking cartel. So, episodes like gambit do not
> make sense, because the crew is already wealthy, from that point.
Only there's no evidence that the crew ever regards that money as
'theirs' in any personal sense. The one time I can recall when Vila
touches on it in "Shadow", when he responds "But we do, we
*do*--" to either Blake or Jenna saying everything's for sale in Space
City,"if you've got the money" -- he gets a 'null' reaction. My guess
is that Blake has put his foot down on the issue quite early on, that
the contents of the treasure room are not to be regarded as anyone's
private property, that it's part of the overall resource the ship
represents, and will stay right where it is unless there's a compelling
need to spend it on something critical to their survival.
I'd like to come back to the specific issue of Avon and money later.
> And why is he so nasty to people who would protect him
> ( except Vila)? And whassup with that fourth season dude- way
> different from the cold, mean snob we all love to hate 1st
> season. 4th season looked as if ham on wry was being served
> for lunch every day! And finally,dear god, why didn't the crew
> kill him if he such an goddamn jerk?
Ooohhh, the pain! All these marvellous, fun questions, and *I gotta
be on that damn bus to work inside of twenty minutes!* but I can't
resist circling back for a fast run at this one,
> Was Avon crazy?
because that was one I spent a lot of time mulling over, my first
few months in fandom. I've heard this one framed in a variety of
ways: Was Avon psychotic? was he psychopathic/a psychopath?
was he paranoid? or, more simply, was he mad? and if any of these,
then to what extent? All quite different questions, each in its own
way worth taking up, so...forgive my cutting and pasting from an
earlier mulling-over session, (not on either of the B7 e-lists) a while
back.
*Was* Avon psychotic? I'd say no. Not in any sense of having any
persistent psychotic disorder, the essence of psychosis being loss of
contact with reality. It's quite common, actually...at about 3%
incidence in the population, it's probably still higher than diabetes.
The good news being that most people who have psychotic
episodes will fully recover from the experience. Symptoms can
include confused thinking (speech becomes irrational or doesn't
make sense, the person may have trouble concentrating, following a
conversation or remembering things, thinking may seem either to
speed up or slow down), delusional beliefs, hallucinations, "feeling
strange" (eg., cut off from the world, or that everything's moving in
slow motion) mood swings, unusual excitement or depression,
emotional numbing, extremes of activity or lethargy, and
behavioural changes such as laughing inappropriately or becoming
angry or upset for no apparent reason. Any or all of the above can
be drug-induced, organic (eg., associated with head injury), brief-
reactive form, delusional, schizophrenic, manic-depressive,
depressive, schizoaffective, the list goes on. None of them, with the
exception of the brief-reactive form, would seem to apply at all in
Avon's case.
There *are* a number of periods in the story where he could be a
candidate for brief reactive psychosis. Brief reactive psychosis =
psychotic symptoms arising suddenly in response to major stress in
a person's life, eg., a death in the family or a drastic change in living
circumstances. Can be severe, but people usually recover in a matter
of days. <sigh> Shall we count the episodes? Beyond pointing out
"Terminal/Rescue/Power", there doesn't seem much point. Avon is
hardly as unaffected by the things that happen to him as he might
like to believe, but there's only one episode in the entire four years,
where IMO he clearly presents as psychotic. That's in "Power".
When he's challenged as to why he's told Orac to give the others a
false access code to the landing silo, he replies, "For much the same
reason as Dorian - I didn't like the idea of Scorpio taking off
without me." He appears to have acted out of a delusional fear that,
should Vila succeed in breaking the lock on the launch chamber
door during his absence, the others would use Orac to get the
access code, take the ship and leave. On the evidence, this is
extraordinary. Neither Tarrant nor Dayna have said or done
anything to suggest any such intention, and if Vila had considered it,
surely he would have been more readily got to work on that door.
It wouldn't even be well supported as a logical possibility. Not
nearly as well supported as a conclusion that in this instance, he *is*
experiencing a psychotic reaction to the events of the preceeding
two episodes. Under the circumstances...pretty normal. Arguably a
lot more normal than the way the rest of the party is reacting.
Was he psychopathic/a psychopath? is an another question entirely.
After a quick websearch on psychopathic personality, leading to the
World Health Organization's description of antisocial personality
disorder - well, here's how it ran, let's see:
Dissocial (Antisocial) Personality Disorder: [A] personality disorder,
usually coming to attention because of a gross disparity between
behaviour and the prevailing social norms, and
characterized by at least 3 of the following:
(a) callous unconcern for the feelings of others;
Ah - no. Doesn't sound like Avon. He can be brutal when irritated,
especially when he is himself upset, but there are plenty of instances
throughout the four years when he's clearly present to the way his
companions are feeling, and while seldom very expressive, seems by
no means unsympathetic.
(b) gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for
social norms, rules and obligations;
Arguably yes, but I'm not persuaded. There are two elements to this
one. First, a "gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility for
social norms, rules and obligations". Loosely translating, a
consistent, immovable attitude that rules are meaningless formulae
for other people to obey. Second, a "gross and persistent disregard
for social norms, rules and obligations." We don't just need the
attitude, here, we need the behaviour to go with it. Consistent,
casual, in-your-face rule-breaking. How much of this do we actually
see in Avon's character? Gross rule-breaking on occasion, yes! <g>
His abortive effort to rip off the Federation banking system surely
rates as that! and his implied readiness, in "Space Fall", to bargain
his companions' lives for his own freedom by offering to falsify the
London's log, is disturbing stuff. There's also a lot that flows from
his "Wealth is the only reality," speech in the same episode, to
suggest he takes a harsh enough view of existence, and of his own
entitlement to do whatever he chooses in his own interest, that
intuitively I have to say 'could be!' as far as the attitude goes. But: I
don't see either its persistent expression, or the gross and persistent
misbehaviour to go with it. From the time he ends up with Blake,
even at the start when his edges are roughest, the worst one can
usually call Avon's behaviour is rude. <g> Rude, tactless, sarcastic,
on occasion genuinely curious with godawful timing, and when
under stress, about as compassionate as a rock...but consistent, in
his apparent preference for civil society, and preparedness to
conduct himself civilly more often than not. Both suggest a good
understanding and at least some appreciation of social norms, rules,
etc., as useful, and no sense on his part of there being no reason
why he need respect them.
(c) incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no
difficulty in establishing them;
Possibly arguable, but IMO not applicable. Reversal would bring this
closer to the truth.
(d) very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for
discharge of aggression, including violence.
<LOL! ROFL!> Here, one could impulsively say *YES!* Avon
certainly does have his moments, when it comes to being noisily
frustrated and aggressive. Including violent. But no, again I think
not. Not that there isn't an undercurrent of violence in the
character, through the first two series. More reactive than actively
aggressive - I don't think we ever see him go looking for a physical
fight - but he's comfortable with taking out his aggressions violently,
and I'd say gets a certain satisfaction from the exercise. But no. As
long as overstress and/or fear aren't part of the equation, he seems
quite a restrained character, and I'd say very tolerant of frustration.
<g> Just look at how long he puts up with Blake...
(e) incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience,
particularly punishment;
*And now we get to it*. Oohh, yeah. Give this one a solid 'yes'.
Very slightly because at entrance, there's nothing to suggest Avon
feels any particular guilt over anything he's done, or that the
punishment he's facing will affect his disposition in the slightest.
Rather more because he makes it so clear that he feels he's entitled
to do anything he chooses, in his own interest, without regard for
consequences for anyone else. Partly because that appears to
extend, later, to a sense that he need feel no regret for harm
resulting from anything he does, (whether or not he's intended to
harm anyone) so long as he's acted rationally. Mostly because the
last two circumstances appear to set a base line from which he
never entirely deviates. We are definitely in the realm of
psychopathic tendency, here.
(f) marked proneness to blame others, or to offer plausible
rationalizations, for the behaviour that has brought the patient into
conflict with society.
A solid 'no'. Doesn't sound like Avon. Even at the very beginning,
when Blake asks what went wrong with his plan, and he replies, "I
relied on other people!" - it sounds as though he blames himself a
lot more for doing the relying, than the others for letting him down.
[(g)]There may also be persistent irritability as an associated feature.
Conduct disorder during childhood and adolescence, though not
invariably present, may further support the diagnosis.
Again, no...and the rest, not provable.
Now, for a quick look at the last two variations on the question.
Was Avon paranoid? I'd say no. I'd be interested in hearing if
anyone feels there's a case to be made for it, but IMO, no. The
trouble with this one is that paranoia *can* be a natural and
adaptive response to a threatening environment
Or, more simply, was he mad? and if yes, to what extent?
Well, this is the one that pulls it all together, doesn't it? <sigh>
What difference would it make? To the question that usually
underlies it, in the real world (*not* to imply it does here!): was he
anything to be feared? or beyond understanding, redemption, or
forgiveness...? <s, shakes head> No.... For me, that's the short
answer. No. <s> Not to call Avon anyone's model of mental
health! He isn't psychotic or paranoid, and he certainly isn't a fully
developed psychopathic personality, but at entrance he *does*
present with some fairly solid psychopathic tendencies, and while he
improves a lot over the four years...the end doesn't see him clear.
Getting there, but not yet.
What's interesting, is that if we step back to the character at
entrance, what happens to him is just about the best thing that
could happen. But save that one for another day, it's < 5 minutes to
bus-time.
Catch ya later, folks.
DJ
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:08:23 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@eng.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Stuff
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.980626130642.7527A-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Phil: *loved* the World Cup squad - brilliant!
Alison: I have a sneaking suspicion that 'Rumania' *used* to be an OK
spelling. These are shaky memories of old stamp albums, tho'... ;)
Edith: Welcome aboard: I enjoyed your post. The pragmatism and realism of
B7's politics is one of its major attractions for me.
Una
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:23:44 +0100
From: "Julie Horner" <jihorner@dial.pipex.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] re: -Cuckoo Waltze
Message-Id: <199806261222.OAA23853@samantha.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> From: Jackie
>
> Julie Horner wrote:
> >
>
> > Actually I think I read that Josette Simon did a few episodes in the
Cuckoo
> > Waltz - so that must have been after B7 - but I am sure it is older
than
> > that -
> > oh dear can someone more knowledgable take over.
> >
> > Julie Horner
>
Jackie said
> I won`t say that I`m more knowledgeable, but I also think Cuckoo Waltze
> was before Blakes 7.
> Cuckoo waltze also had Lewis Collins in it, very much pre-
> Professionals, which was before Blakes 7.
> Perhaps Josette did her episodes while still at drama school?
> Unless of course the series (or 2) that had Lewis in was indeed before
> Blakes 7 & Professionals, and was remade after for Josette to guest in.
> I vaguely remember somebody else other than Lewis as the Cuckoo for at
> least another seies.
>
Actually I have just found the reference to Josette and Cuckoo Waltz in the
Horizon interviews. It sounds as though she did one episode and it was
_after_ Blake 7.
The interviewer said:
Have there been any parts you haven't enjoyed playing?
Josette:
Yes, that awful one in the Cuckoo Waltz That was because when I
joined them they had been doing it for a couple of series....
So I guess Cuckoo Waltz could have been both before and after.
Julie Horner
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:20:18 +0100
From: "fifitrix" <fifitrix@dial.pipex.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] With the greatest respect to the Tarrant Nostra...
Message-ID: <014901bda0fd$7fcaa940$d34895c1@scarlett>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jenni wrote:
>It is wise to respect the Tarrant Nostra. Their arm is long, as is their
memory!
>
>Joanne wrote:
>
>
>
>Erm, Carol, how long are you prepared to wait? I'd hate to disappoint
>anyone generous enough to spare me from kidnapping.
>
>
>The Godmother is a wise and generous leader. She will be patient, but you
will sucumb to His Curliness' charms, which are manifest.
>
>You have been duly warned!
>
>Jenni (who could quite get into this gangster-type stuff)
>
He is beautiful, he is wonderous, he has a really cute bum.
We are legion. We are everywhere. We are faceless, we could be sitting next
you on the train, bus or plane. Check in the bed for the horses head.
nuff said
fifitrix
*******************************************************************
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
*******************************************************************
fifitrix@dial.pipex.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 23:47:23 +1000
From: Taina Nieminen <taina@netspace.net.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Blake's 7: The World Cup Years
Message-ID: <3593A66B.F1BC00FC@netspace.net.au>
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Norway - the Liberator: strong and solid, absorbs a lot of pressure, and
can do anything on a good day.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:57:38 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@eng.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: Space City <space-city@world.std.com>
Subject: [B7L] Bloody video tapes
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.980626155453.9711B-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I am getting mildly depressed about these damn video releases, as my local
shop has decided not to stock them (tho' will order them for me, and
didn't think it was likely that Fab Films would stop releasing them
before they got to the end).
Has anyone got any information about release dates? Did anyone else have
success ringing Fabulous and finding out about video covers.
I *really* don't want all this money to go down the pan <sigh..>
Una
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The pre-menstrual historian: 'It's NOT my period!'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Judge Institute of Management Studies Tel: +44 (0)1223 766064
Trumpington Street Fax: +44 (0)1223 339701
Cambridge
CB2 1AG http://www.sticklebrock.demon.co.uk/una
United Kingdom http://www.jims.cam.ac.uk/research/ion/
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:01:44 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Um, did not mean to offend A.S.K.S.
Message-ID: <3593B7D8.1F16@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Edith Spencer wrote:
>
> Um, Ok-
> I did not mean to offend the members of ASKS nor anyone who is a
> diehard Avonite. Goodness, no.
Sorry, I was having fun at your expense... I don't offend easily. Just
putting on a touch of Avon's superciliousness.
I was just wondering about the
> motivations behind the character. Blake is quite easy to figure out
> actually- an educated idealist living in a decayed, corrupt, oppressive
> system who wants to destroy it. An English Lenin or Trotsky, perhaps. (
> It doesn't make Blake any less fascinating,btw)But I do wonder about the
> Avon character- he was rendered very mysterious, very aloof, and there
> is nothing more irrestible to many a viewer/reader of fiction than an
> aloof, mysterious man or woman( I fell in love with Sherlock Holmes when
> I was 13!) You always wonder what is the motivation behind such
> characters and the choices that they make.
Okay, the way I see it, Avon is a man of honor in a society that uses
and discards honorable people (much like our own?). He will not give up
his principles (although his priciples are different from more
traditional heroes), but to defend himself against manipulation by
others is
1. very suspicious of other's motivations. Once burned, many times shy.
2. prone to act like a jerk, because that way idiots don't expect him to
bail their butts out (no matter how many times he may _actually do so_--
of course, his comrades aren't idiots s ot ehy end up seeing through
this) and no one is entirely sure which way he will jump. Easier to run
bluffs that way. Think how often he survived encounters with Servalan at
first because she didn't believe he believed in what Blake was fighting
for.
Avon is rational about his ideals. They aren't based on religion or
tradition, but more a matter personal judgements. He doesn't pick on the
weak, he thinks betrayal is the worst crime, etc.
> As for not being an empath...I admit it freely, or I would not be
> part of the list :)
I'm an empath-- one BIG difference from Avon. So I don't _usually_ tease
people, the way I did with you. Actually I did it to yank the chains of
many of the list regulars, who know what a die-hard Avon fanatic I am.
But I think is part of the show many charms- and why
> so many shows after it have copied many of its elements (ST:TNG, though
> they would never admit it in a month of sundays, B5, V) the intricate
> plotting, the interesting characters and rather good writing...for the
> most part. Of course, the other charms are less edifying- Cally's
> shocking thinness, Blake's Afro(Welshfro?)
Compared to tarrant's Blake's was fairly tame.
Jenna's outfits,
Jenna's? Give me Servalan's wardrobe, you can wear the pilot's clothes.
Vila's
> sideburns and Avon's, um, leather.
Avon's _wit, charm, and personality_. (she said with a sigh... still,
it's better than constantly having to praise Tarrant, eh, Tarrant
Nostra?)
-- Avona, wondering if she should let her Cally side take over before
she really gets people mad.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:56:52 EDT
From: DCsquared@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] B7 Writer's Group Round Robin
Message-ID: <795c950b.3593b6bc@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Just a quick anouncement. The B7 Novice Writer's Group is having it's first
round robin. If anyone else would like to participate, jump on over to our
web page and enlist.
(Feel free to pass this info on to the other list. I finally had to unsub due
to lack of time. Thanks...)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Donna Chlouber
Keeper of Zen's Wisdom
B7 Novice Writer's Group
http://members.aol.com/DCsquared/mainframe.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:49:18 +0100
From: "Julie Horner" <jihorner@dial.pipex.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Bloody video tapes
Message-Id: <199806261547.RAA01765@samantha.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> From: Una McCormack
>
> I am getting mildly depressed about these damn video releases, as my
local
> shop has decided not to stock them (tho' will order them for me, and
> didn't think it was likely that Fab Films would stop releasing them
> before they got to the end).
>
> Has anyone got any information about release dates? Did anyone else have
> success ringing Fabulous and finding out about video covers.
>
> I *really* don't want all this money to go down the pan <sigh..>
>
Our local WH Smith and Woolworths have also decided not to
bother after the first four tapes, but we were able to get tape 5
from HMV in Stockport (shiny)
Also, joy and rapture - my husband rang at lunch time to say
he has just bought tape 6 (dunno but presumably shiny) - I
think it came out yesterday (25th).
Brilliant timing on his part as I was just surfacing from a particularly
sordid failure in the infant's toilet training and I needed news like
that to cheer me up.
Julie Horner
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:16:18 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: DJ Wight <Angnak@compuserve.com>
CC: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Avon and guilt--was mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable?
Message-ID: <3593F383.78@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> (e) incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience,
> particularly punishment;
>
> *And now we get to it*. Oohh, yeah. Give this one a solid 'yes'.
> Very slightly because at entrance, there's nothing to suggest Avon
> feels any particular guilt over anything he's done, or that the
> punishment he's facing will affect his disposition in the slightest.
> Rather more because he makes it so clear that he feels he's entitled
> to do anything he chooses, in his own interest, without regard for
> consequences for anyone else. Partly because that appears to
> extend, later, to a sense that he need feel no regret for harm
> resulting from anything he does, (whether or not he's intended to
> harm anyone) so long as he's acted rationally. Mostly because the
> last two circumstances appear to set a base line from which he
> never entirely deviates. We are definitely in the realm of
> psychopathic tendency, here.
>
Avon never _admits_ to feeling guilt, but there are indications he
does. Look how his relationship with Dayna changes in the wake of her
father's death. They flirted before... but afterwards, he acted "in loco
parentis" towards her. I think he felt like he had brought the serpent
into their home, after Servalan destroyed the Mellanby household. His
desire to avenge Anna's "death" comes from, in part, I think a sense of
guilt over the notion that she died for him.
But he doesn't wallow in guilt most of the time-- that's a very
unproductive thing to do. He simply accepts his failure, tries to learn
from it (thus, learning from his 'punishment' for it is the internal
punishment of failure rather than external punishments that matter to
'masterminds') and then, if he can make amends in some form of action
does so. But most of the things that happen cannot be undone. So he
forces himself to move on. Too much of this starts pushing his
personality over the edge in season 4, as he does not have good coping
mechanisms.
I recommend that people watch-- can any one supply the name of the
episode?-- the season 5 episode of Babylon 5, where Mollari confornts
his sense of guilt. He has total mental blocks against admitting his
sense of guilt, and has a heart attack as a result. It isn't that some
people have no sense of guilt, it's that they can'tdeal with guilt. The
Simpsons also did an Thanksgiving episode where Bart _was_ sorry he'd
destroyed his sisters artwork, but couldn't say so for fear everyone
would turn on him if he admitted guilt. I think Avon has a similar
proble. I he says "It was my fault," he thinks everyone will say "Yes,
and we're booting you off the ship for it."
JMHO
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:49:26 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable?
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.42-0626084926-313Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Thu 25 Jun, Edith Spencer wrote:
> I have seen several episodes where Avon goes on and on about money
> and money that, but in the second episode where the original crew gets
> on the liberator and Avon discovers wealth beyond that of the banking
> cartel. So, episodes like gambit do not make sense, because the crew is
> already wealthy, from that point.
I don't think Avon saw Liberator's money as entirely his own. Think of 'Shadow'
where they are shwoing gems to the Terra Nostra man. Avon reluctantly gives the
gems back to Blake. I think the treasure room was viewed as a fund for the
revolution and not belonging to any one of them.
Consider also 'Breakdown'. Avon didn't (as far as I'm aware) raid the treasure
room before going over to the space station. He was offering his services as a
technical specialist which suggests he wasn't thinking of himself as rich.
Money gained from gambling belonged to him and Vila only. Nobody else could
dispute it or lay claim to it. And I think he enjoyed the thrill.
> And why is he so nasty to people who would protect him ( except
> Vila)?
Because he trusts them and knows that they won't actually ditch him no matter
how much of a pain he is. Bear in mind that he also protects them. (Consider
The Web, Trial, Breakdown, and various other episodes) What Avon says and what
Avon does are often streets apart.
> And whassup with that fourth season dude- way different from the cold, mean
> snob we all love to hate 1st season. 4th season looked as if ham on wry was
> being served for lunch every day! And finally,dear god, why didn't the crew
> kill him if he such an goddamn jerk?
> Just asking you b7 elders!
We decided last weekend that Avon's mental health was always a popular
discussion, so we added it to the agenda for Redemption. If anyone wants to
moderate a discussion on whether Avon was mentally ill or just highly stressed,
just drop me a line.
We've got a couple of other popular perennials as well as some more original
activities. We've already got volunteers to run some, but will be out there
twisting arms for others.
Judith
PS. Chris says that anyone attending his juggling workshop at Redemption should
bring a pair of clean socks. I leave the reasons entirely to your imagination!
PPS. One of the workshops that ended up with a 'maybe' rating was puppetry.
Those at the last night of 'Guards Guards' will have seen Rachel's wonderful
Avon puppet. Having had a chance to play with it with strings untangled, I love
it. Would there be interest in a workshop on making and using marionettes?
Rachel has an Avon and a Blake puppet and will be working on Servalan and I've
had a lot of experience performing with marionettes even if most of it does date
back to over 20 years ago.
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:26:10 PDT
From: "Edith Spencer" <sueno45@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] A reply to my own goofy post
Message-ID: <19980626202611.15475.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
To all:
Thanks for the continuing replies! I rewatched a couple of the
episodes the other night as part our weekly Mystery science Theatre get
together (hee)and it would seem that while Avon is under stress and does
weird things(uh, the leather) he is also able to keep calm and rather
rational under the most extreme of circumstances. As to my earlier
rambling about Avon seeming rather fixated on money- if he really was
the number two guy in computer programming in the Federation, he must
have some sort of comfortable lifestyle ( No, I have not read any
fanfic. Yet.) and yet he goes off and plans this massive fraud. While
plan a fraud when you are comfortable already? Was it the thrill of
planning and getting away with it, rather than the actual money itself?
And with another man's wife(Anna/Bart)? Was the society so decayed that
one of it's most talented members felt compelled to try to get away with
it? ( By the way, my russian friend Kyra said that all
intellectuals-writers, artists, scientists- were watched closely by the
government. Is this perhaps why Avon wound up in jail, anyway?)
Like a lot of people I seem to know (and like, strangely
enough...hmm) Avon is lacking in certain social norms- Kinda like a
teenager in his mid-thirties who never really learned, or wanted to
learn, the little hypocrisies that make up adult life. Oh dear, I am
getting on here!
Edith Spencer
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:42:36 PDT
From: "Edith Spencer" <sueno45@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] a reply to the post about Guilt
Message-ID: <19980626204237.19497.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Gosh, this is addictive!
In the episode after poor Gan buys the farm,( Trial?) Blakes
goes off to think on a planet. The crew postulates why,to Avon says
something like maybe's Blakes feeling guilty. Jenna asks Avon " And what
would you about guilt?" "Only what I have read" he replies with a smirk.
Hmm...
Which seems to be in character with the post by Helen and with other
episodes. Only after we are introduced to some of Avon's past do we get
glimmerings of regret and shock of discovering you are in a web (
another B7 thing used in B5; JMS is god!).
Wow- this is fun! and gresat way to pass time while working in the
Lab!
Edith Spencer
P.S. I seem to remember,sorta, that there was a book by the actor who
played Avon on the series. I think I read, once. My mother did a
periodic sweep of my room ( Carribean Catholics, you know) and
proclaimed ( the book, along with some commie lit I was also into at the
time)obscene and disgusting. Does anybody else remember this? Some of
the passages were enough to make a 15 year girl blush.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:16:55 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: Edith Spencer <sueno45@hotmail.com>
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] a reply to the post about Guilt
Message-ID: <35942BE8.31D@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Edith Spencer wrote:
>
> Gosh, this is addictive!
> In the episode after poor Gan buys the farm,( Trial?) Blakes
> goes off to think on a planet. The crew postulates why,to Avon says
> something like maybe's Blakes feeling guilty. Jenna asks Avon " And what
> would you about guilt?" "Only what I have read" he replies with a smirk.
> Hmm...
You know, you really belong on this list! You are great at bringing up
the controversial questions, with a real interest in the answers. I have
to unsub in a few days as I'm going on vacation, but it will be nice to
see what else you stir up when I get back.
> Which seems to be in character with the post by Helen and with other
> episodes. Only after we are introduced to some of Avon's past do we get
> glimmerings of regret and shock of discovering you are in a web (
> another B7 thing used in B5; JMS is god!).
Yes!
> P.S. I seem to remember,sorta, that there was a book by the actor who
> played Avon on the series. I think I read, once. My mother did a
> periodic sweep of my room ( Carribean Catholics, you know) and
> proclaimed ( the book, along with some commie lit I was also into at the
> time)obscene and disgusting. Does anybody else remember this? Some of
> the passages were enough to make a 15 year girl blush.
Yes, I thought they were fairly hot when I first read them, but
defintely not obscene. Paul did some interesting things with it... I
wasn't fond of the idea of Anna as an addict, but that was _one_ way to
make it work. Some people truely hate that novel, others greet it with
gales of laughter... I think the best stuff is how messed up his mother
was-- with a background like that, no wonder he does the emotional
deadpan.
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #176
**************************************