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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 98 : Issue 256

Today's Topics:
	 [B7L] re Project Avalon
	 Re: [B7L] Tarrant, Soolin, damnit, the whole crew if need be!
	 Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards
	 Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards
	 Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards
	 Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards
	 Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards
	 Re: [B7L] re: Project Avalon
	 Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards
	 Re: [B7L] re: Project Avalon
	 Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards
	 Re: [B7L] Killing characters
	 Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards
	 [B7L] Guttering (for Nicola)
	 [B7L] Guttering (for Nicola)
	 [B7L] Developing a mind like a sewer <sour expression>
	 [B7L] Developing a mind like a sewer <sour expression>
	 [B7L] Developing a mind like a sewer <sour expression>
	 Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards
	 [B7L] re: Guttering (for Nicola)
	 [B7L] [B7]Arbiter/Egrorian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 15:03:53 +0100
From: Jackie <jackiew@termlow.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] re Project Avalon
Message-ID: <361CC649.6C53@termlow.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Judith Proctor wrote:
 
> > >Why was the prison coverall kept in the first place and not disposed of -
> > >were the crew planning to give it back to Avalon as a momento of her stay?
> >
> > Perhaps they were planning to use it as a disguise to infiltrate some
> > Federation prison <smile>

> 
> I can believe them keeping it.  They had virtually everything else in that
> wardrobe room.  What's a prison robe between friends?

Yaaay!! The crew played *dressing up*!!  One person played prisoner, the
other played nasty guard.  Jenna and Cally strike me as wanting to play
*the nasty guard* (to get their own back for being on teleport duty for
a lot of the time) so who would that leave to wear the scimpy prison
robe????
oooops!!! so sorry!!  All the heroes HERE are Tall, Strong, Straight and
True.  They`re only kinky on the other list!!

:-)

Jackie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:28:46 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant, Soolin, damnit, the whole crew if need be!
Message-ID: <6ecf54ea.361ccc1e@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Joanne wrote (quoting me):

> >Tarrant's loyalty bordered on suicidal.
>  
>  <splutter> What!?! Oh, sorry, Carol, there must be something 
>  contaminating the vanilla-tinted glasses <smile>

Tsk...  Are you doubting my evaluation?  :)  Just in case, maybe I better
offer some canonical examples of when Tarrant's loyalty bordered on suicidal.

Let's look at TERMINAL.  Cally, Vila, Dayna, and Tarrant seem convinced that
Avon is capable of shooting Tarrant.  Avon threatens to shoot anyone who
follows him down to TERMINAL.  What's Tarrant's immediate response?  To follow
Avon down to TERMINAL to protect him.  His loyalty was greater than his self
preservation instincts.

There's also this intriguing bit from ANIMALS.  It's Avon speaking to Tarrant
who is on board Scorpio:  "Absolutely not.  Maintain your present course.
Abandon Dayna.  Keep running for base and bring that ship back..."  Why do I
get the feeling that Tarrant wanted to take the badly crippled Scorpio back to
Bucol 2 for Dayna?  Sounds like another bit of suicidal loyalty to me,
especially since Soolin tells us later in the ep that even at its best
Scorpio's armament isn't a match for a Federation patrol.

ANIMALS also has one of those examples of Vila's less than enthusiastic
loyalty that I wanted to start counting.  The others are preparing to go back
to Bucol 2.  Vila protests.  Tarrant says they have to because Dayna is there.
Vila responds that he shouldn't have to be punished for Tarrant's guilty
conscience.  Poor Tarrant just looks incredulous over that; it's hard for him
to understand Vila's lack of concern for Dayna.

Lots more interesting posts from the past couple of days, but I'm out of time
for now.

Carol Mc

  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:28:45 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards
Message-ID: <44a42aa1.361ccc1d@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Deborah wrote:

>   Huh? Seems to me, if Tarrant had lowered his testesterone count for a
>  minute, Vila's actions made perfect sense. He's infiltrated the enemy, 
> albiet accidently, and has someone who will assist him.

Uh...the "enemy" that Vila has infiltrated is a group of ex-prisoners.  Not
exactly the higher echelon where useful information might be obtained.  For
all Tarrant knows, these "ex-prisoners" are on their way to become expendable
cannon fodder.

And there's no guarantee they would be willing to assist Tarrant and Vila. 

> The best Tarrant can do is
>  wander around till the surveyllence system spots him. Tarrant should have 
> let Vila run for awhile: it's not likely that being the long-term buddy of a
>  psycopath would lure him away from the relative comfort  of the Liberator(
> and
>  I won't go down the road that last statement opened up). 

Tarrant isn't the type to let a shipmate go off and get himself in trouble.
What if Vila had ended up dead?  What if Vila had lost his teleport bracelet?
You don't think Tarrant would feel guilty and responsible?  Once Vila has
taken off, protecting Vila becomes Tarrant primary concern (we saw other
incidents where he put the safety of shipmates as his primary concern).  When
Tarrant gets caught, he's sitting there adjusting his bracelet.  What he says
indicates that he's returning to Liberator--and that can't be because he is
intent on carrying out his mission.  It's more probable that he's going back
to get help to retrieve Vila.

>Tarrant blew it in
>  this one. He didn't ask Vila if he had a plan, he became belligerent when
>  there was still a chance Vila could have talked Tarrant into the same setup
> as
>  himself, and then Tarrant gets himself captured. If you want to call Vila's
>  actions mutiny, then I'd say it was committed under extenuating 
> circumstances.

I call Vila's actions irresponsible.  It was quite clear that Vila didn't have
a plan beyond the pleasantries of the moment. He was endangering the mission,
endangering Tarrant (who might not have got caught if he hadn't been
distracted by concern for Vila), and endangering himself. 

Tarrant grew belligerent because he wanted to get Vila away from a group of
criminals, where he thought Vila might not be safe.  What if someone had done
a head count and realized there was an extra head, or two, in the group?
Also, aside from the danger of a head count and the danger involved in duties
the criminals are scheduled to perform, this is a Federation operation.
There's also the danger that sooner or later the criminals are going to come
in contact with someone who will recognize an infamous wanted fugitive.  We
know that at least one person who would recognize them is on the planet:
Servalan.
  
Would that Vila had shown half the concern for Tarrant that you expect Tarrant
to show for Vila.  Vila knows Tarrant.  He knows about his need to keep his
shipmates safe.  But that doesn't enter Vila's mind as he blithely goes off
with his criminal buddies.  Vila shows more loyalty to Doran than to Tarrant.
Though I guess we shouldn't expect different from Vila.  Some day I'll have to
take a count of the times when Vila was more concerned about his own safety or
pleasure over the safety of his shipmates.

It's interesting that Vila is quite content to stick by Tarrant and to follow
his orders later in the episode.  He's discovered it's not very safe to be out
in the big bad world on his own.  Vila's own words are:  "Don't try anything
smart.  I've been conned enough for
one day."

Though, sadly, their reunion includes another example of Vila's inclination to
childishness (as also shown by his irresponsible behavior earlier):

TARRANT: <snip> Now let's try and get under cover, before we're
seen.  
    VILA:  All right.  (They move for cover.) Before we go any
further, I want you to know --  that I didn't steal this uniform
off a dead guard.  I was issued it.  
 TARRANT:  So?  
    VILA:  They were gonna make me a starship captain.  Just as
long as you know.  All you got for your cleverness was an
execution order on your head.  
 TARRANT:  Yes, Vila.  I take the point.  You're obviously far
cleverer than I.   
    VILA:  Right. 

I have to admire Tarrant's patience here (also his patience earlier on the
troop transport when he is trying to calm Vila's panic).  Tarrant more often
than not is a patient, tolerant leader to someone with Vila's immature
tendencies.  Far more patient than I would be!  As much as I enjoy Vila as a
character, I would not want to have to work with him.  Party with him...yes.
Supervise him or have to depend on him...no. 

Carol Mc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:07:07 +0100 (BST)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@mail.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.981008155903.8196B-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 8 Oct 1998 Mac4781@aol.com wrote:

> 
> I call Vila's actions irresponsible.  It was quite clear that Vila didn't have
> a plan beyond the pleasantries of the moment. He was endangering the mission,
> endangering Tarrant (who might not have got caught if he hadn't been
> distracted by concern for Vila), and endangering himself. 
> 

Vila doesn't really care about the mission, is quite happy to let Tarrant
take care of himself, and as for endangering himself - can you think of a
more risky bunch of people to hang out with than the Galaxy's number one
terrorists?

>   
> Would that Vila had shown half the concern for Tarrant that you expect Tarrant
> to show for Vila.  Vila knows Tarrant.  He knows about his need to keep his
> shipmates safe.  But that doesn't enter Vila's mind as he blithely goes off
> with his criminal buddies.  Vila shows more loyalty to Doran than to Tarrant.
> Though I guess we shouldn't expect different from Vila.  Some day I'll have to
> take a count of the times when Vila was more concerned about his own safety or
> pleasure over the safety of his shipmates.
> 

And why not? It's hard to see any compelling reason why Vila should be
loyal to the Liberator crew. He ended up there as much by chance as
anything else, and all he's had for his trouble is to be used, abused and
shot at by friend and foe alike. Given a chance for social advancement in
a group of people who seem to actually like him, I can well understand why
he'd walk out on the rebellion.

Iain

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:46:43 EDT
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards
Message-ID: <ccc79532.361cde63@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-10-08 10:33:59 EDT, you write:

<< Uh...the "enemy" that Vila has infiltrated is a group of ex-prisoners.  Not
 exactly the higher echelon where useful information might be obtained. >>


   but it is a starting place as to find out what's happening. You make
several other good points, and I'll not try overly hard to defend Vila's
actions; some of them are indeed rather childish. However, my critisism of
Tarrant stands. He's trying to "protect" Vila from someone who can offer more
protection than Tarrant himself. Tarrant has no other plan than to wander
about and hope to stumble on something before something stumbles on him. At
least Vila is dressed in a way that might just let him bluff his way out, with
Doran as an "alibi". Might not hold up under careful scrutiny, but no one on
the planet would have reason to suspect interlopers, especially since the
intruding craft seemed to have left without landing. Yes, Servalan   would not
have been so easily fooled, but she was out of the picture at the time.
     Whatever Tarrant's motives, which may or may not have been based on
loyalty and caring(vs. simple axiety to get the mission done, his way), I
still think this is one of the better showcases of his weaknesses. The man
knows how to fly a ship, but he's weak on the tactical ground combat stuff.
And Vila gathered more information, even if he didn't know how to interpret
it, than Tarrant ever managed.Though I expect we'll still be discussing this
come E-Con:)             D. Rose

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:41:25 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1008084125-06cRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On Wed 07 Oct, Lorna B. wrote:
> >Moloch: It`s at Tarrant`s insistance that they go down on the planet,
> >then he finds that Vila isn`t as easily bullied as he thought. ha! I
> >thought that Tarrants expression showed that he realised Vila had made a
> >fool of him all along.
> 
> Vila mutinied in the middle of a mission.  That's just plain stupid.  What
> would your opinion be had it been Avon and Tarrant on the planet, with
> Tarrant deciding to suddenly throw in his lot with the newly inducted
> Federation troopers, and to hell with the people he'd been working with the
> last few years?
> 
> I didn't see Tarrant thinking himself a fool in the scene you mention; I saw
> it more as a "Well, that didn't work, did it?" sort of expression when his
> last-ditch attempt at reason fails to provide results.  And note that Vila
> really isn't intimidated all that much by Tarrant.  He pushes the gun aside
> quite readily.  Not something I'd be inclined to do with someone who bullied
> and threatened me on a regular basis.  Vila knew Tarrant wouldn't kill
> him--they've crewed together long enough for both of them to realize that.

A possible alternative interpretation (I was watching 'Hornblower' last night;
it was darn good and made me think of this possibility) is that Vila had reached
the point where he didn't care any more.  Rather like Hornblower going into the
duel, he looked on it as a win win situation.  If Tarrant shot him, he was out
of his misery.  If Tarrant didn't shoot him, then he'd gained a victory of sorts
and would never fear Tarrant so much again.

Judith
-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7

Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention  
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 10:30:06 PDT
From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards
Message-ID: <19981008173015.9846.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain

Jackie pointed out:

>A little while ago I had a go at Blake, and got my tail
>shot off for my troubles (:-)). 

It's alright for you, Jackie.  You're not under a death sentence for 
having a go at Blake.

Then quoted someone else (?):
   
> They all have their problems, and we love 'em for them.

Too right!  Their defects don't just miraculously vanish as soon as they 
"open up" and "talk about their problems".  Unlike certain other SF 
series I could mention.

=====================================================================

Judith, I take your point about Avon's capacity for love.  And, as Sue 
Clerc pointed out, he earns a lot of cred in "Pressure Point" for 
putting his arm round Blake when he was down.  Still, at that moment in 
time he had a great deal of appeasing to do, not just for the way he 
treated Blake, but some very nasty comments aimed directly at Gan.
There is more than one example, but "Weapon" is the only one that I can 
think of.  Gan pledges his allegiance to Blake, even in the event that 
Blake goes straight for the heart of the Federation.  Avon belittles 
Gan's loyalty by suggesting that would leave Blake "almost alone."  
True, Gan was not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but drawing 
attention to the fact in front of the crew was just plain childish.  
Especially given Gan's nature.

By the time "Terminal" comes around, it seems like he's done his 
penance.  In fact, "Terminal" begs a couple of interesting questions...

"Sometimes your simple-minded certainties might have proved refreshing."  
Was that a reference to Tarrant, or was Avon complaining about the 
leadership role that seemed to have been thrust uopn him?

If Avon had rescued Blake and brought him back to the Liberator, what 
would their dynamics have been like afterwards?  For the first time, 
Avon had acknowledged that he needed Blake -- in a very Avon-like way, I 
concede -- but the admission was there, and that would have been 
impossible to deny.

Anyway, better get back to that program...

-- Rob




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:42:30 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] re: Project Avalon
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1008074230-b49Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On Thu 08 Oct, Todd Girdler wrote:
> 
> >I don't go for this one because the original point still holds.  If the 
> >virus went for 28 seconds without something to eat then it supposedly died. 
> >It would be very easy for a Liberator crew member to escape under such 
> >conditions.  It would only require one crew member to be in te cargo holds or
> >in a  cabin off duty and they'd be out of range before the virus starved to
> >death.
> 
> Surely the android could wait until they were all in the same room. That 
> seems to be the simple solution.

That might make sense, but I'd have to rewatch the episode to be sure.

Who was in the teleport bay when the android came on board?  That might explain
all the messing around with tunics etc. if the android had to wait until
everyone was together.

Was everyone together when the purple sphere finall made its appearance - I've
got a feeling that they weren't actually.  If they weren't then that kills
another theory.

Judith

-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7

Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention  
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:58:23 EDT
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards
Message-ID: <6149d44e.361d195f@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 98-10-08 10:06:16 EDT, Jackie writes:

<< Just exactly who on the Liberator accepted Vila. Dayna didn`t like him.
 Tarrant bullied him, Jenna didn`t like him (she was alpha, he was delta,
 nothing personal), Cally was an alien, and both Blake & Avon risked HIS
 life to further their own plans.  >>

I don't think it's a matter of his crewmates not liking Vila, I think it's a
matter of their not liking some of his behavior.  Vila DID have some dangerous
and objectionable habits and not just from Tarrant's point of view (i.e.
sleeping on watch and getting drunk on duty).  This was apparent even in the
first and second seasons.  I haven't seen the episode yet but I recall
something about Vila taking off to go on a bender in "Shadow."  

I suspect that Jenna's and Dayna's supposed dislike of Vila had something to
do with the frequency of the passes he made at them.  Cally may have been an
alien but that did not mean she didn't care about her shipmates;  she defended
Vila when Tarrant sent him down to Keezarn.  

Concerning the charges of bullying against Tarrant:  the incidents others have
cited both occur fairly early in the third season when Tarrant and the crew
were still getting used to each other.  These incidents took place in times of
danger for the entire crew.  In "City," the Liberator was defenseless without
its main blasters.  I think Tarrant would have gone himself if he had had the
necessary skills, but as Carol pointed out, Bayban specifically wanted a
thief.  Also, Tarrant didn't know they were dealing with Bayban.  From the
episodes I have seen, Tarrant didn't expect others to do dangerous things that
he was unwilling to do himself (unlike a certain very popular character I
could mention).  For all their conflicts, Tarrant and Vila do not hold grudges
against each other.  Vila seems to have forgiven Tarrant by the end of "City"
and "Moloch."  This did not happen at the end of "Orbit," in fact I'm not sure
Vila would ever trust Avon again after that, but he did risk Avon's anger in
"Blake" when he asked where Tarrant was three times and Avon just ignored the
question.  
    
As for Blake and Avon using Vila to achieve their own objectives, they did
that to everyone in the crew.  If Vila had truly wanted to leave, he had
plenty of opportunities.  I think Vila was stronger and smarter than he is
given credit for and that was why Tarrant found him so frustrating to deal
with at first.

Tiger M

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:26:17 -0400
From: Jane MacDonald <cylanmaster@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] re: Project Avalon
Message-ID: <199810081626_MC2-5C12-4285@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Todd Girdler wrote:

> Surely the android could wait until they were all in the same room. That 
> seems to be the simple solution.

 And Judith wrote:

>That might make sense, but I'd have to rewatch the episode to be sure. 
Who was in the teleport bay >when the android came on board?  That might
explain all the messing around with tunics etc. if the >android had to wait
until everyone was together.  Was everyone together when the purple sphere
finall >made its appearance - I've got a feeling that they weren't
actually.  If they weren't then that kills
>another theory.

No they wern't.  I think only Gan was with her.

Cylan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:28:26 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards
Message-ID: <cb807b2c.361d044a@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

I'm back.  I can get through work pretty quickly when properly motivated (such
as the siren's call of tantalizing list discussions <g>).

Deborah wrote:

>  However, my critisism of
>  Tarrant stands. He's trying to "protect" Vila from someone who can offer 
> more
>  protection than Tarrant himself. 

Neither of them had any way of making that judgment.  And as it turned out
Vila wasn't quite that safe with Doran, hence his decision to stick with
Tarrant the next time he showed up.  Whatever risks Tarrant represented, Vila
knew what to expect (Tarrant WILL be reckless) and knew he could count on
Tarrant to protect him with his very life.  Vila couldn't really predict what
he was getting into with Doran. 

>  Tarrant has no other plan than to wander
>  about and hope to stumble on something before something stumbles on him.

It's true Tarrant's "plan" is sketchy at best.  Unfortunately or fortunately
as the case may be, Tarrant has a degree of confidence in his ability to wing
it that may not always be justified.  Probably because his winging it has
often produced good results.  If Tarrant hadn't chosen to wander off in
ULTRAWORLD he'd never have learned how to put Cally and Avon back together,
for instance.

While it might not have made a difference, Tarrant was rushed in his planning
of this mission by the necessity of catching a ride on the troop transport.
He only had a narrow window to manage that.  True, he could have waited for
alternate plan B.  But on this occasion (as on many others) time and research
might not have helped formulate a better plan.  Avon had time to investigate
and plan, and he and Dayna ended up prisoners who needed rescuing by Tarrant.

> At
>  least Vila is dressed in a way that might just let him bluff his way out, 
> with Doran as an "alibi". 

I'm not sure you what you mean by that.  After parting with Tarrant, Doran and
his group are issued Federation uniforms and Doran gets one for Vila.  Vila
just stumbles into that.  There's no way Vila could have predicted it
happening, or that Tarrant could have anticipated that would happen.

> I
>  still think this is one of the better showcases of his weaknesses. The man
>  knows how to fly a ship, but he's weak on the tactical ground combat stuff.

I don't know.  Tactical ground stuff doesn't provide any guarantees,
especially when you don't know what you are up against.  Once again, despite
his blunders, Tarrant is the one who saves the day.  As mentioned above,
sometimes planning doesn't help.  And when you are going into the unknown, you
have to take things as they come.  Was it Napoleon who said he'd rather have
lucky generals than skilled generals?

And when it came to tactical ground combat stuff, Tarrant seemed to be doing a
good job in RUMOURS.  He adjusted to each situation as it presented itself. 

>  And Vila gathered more information, even if he didn't know how to interpret
>  it, than Tarrant ever managed.

What useful information did Vila gather?  It was Tarrant who somehow had
managed to learn the computer knew too much about him and that he needed to
destroy it.  He had a uniform, gun, map and plan when Vila reached him.
Without getting any additional information from Vila, Tarrant then directed a
successful ground assault on his objective, rescued Avon and destroyed the
computer.  Once he had Vila working with him instead of against him, they made
a good team.

That's the beauty of B7.  As a team they were stronger than they were as
individuals.  One's weakness was another team member's strength.  Of course
the other beauty of B7 is that it was never usually that simple or that
smooth.  Their personalities were such that sometimes it wasn't easy to get to
the "working together" stage.  Without those degrees of conflict the show
wouldn't have been half as interesting.

Iain wrote:

> And why not? It's hard to see any compelling reason why Vila should be
>  loyal to the Liberator crew. He ended up there as much by chance as
>  anything else, and all he's had for his trouble is to be used, abused and
>  shot at by friend and foe alike. Given a chance for social advancement in
>  a group of people who seem to actually like him, I can well understand why
>  he'd walk out on the rebellion.

I'd have nothing but admiration for Vila if he decided to walk away from the
rebellion, Liberator, and his shipmates for good.  But that never seemed to be
his objective; it was more going with the flow of the moment and avoiding as
much work and danger as possible.  (As soon as Tarrant appeared safer than
Doran, Vila was scampering back to Tarrant.)  If you are going to reap the
benefits of the team, it seems as if you should also accept the
responsibilities.  Which Vila was reluctant to do.  He reminds me of a saying
of my neighbor's "Vila is someone who wants a job but doesn't want to have to
work." 

Carol Mc
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 10:33:58 PDT
From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Killing characters
Message-ID: <19981008173358.24358.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain

Judith:

>I wonder how many people took up computing because they liked Avon?

I took up computing because I like money.  So I should be able to 
empathise with Avon.

-- Rob


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Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 21:51:19 EDT
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards
Message-ID: <b6d2a53a.361d6c17@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-10-08 14:33:49 EDT, you write:

<< Vila wasn't quite that safe with Doran, hence his decision to stick with
 Tarrant the next time he showed up. >>


   I think Vila stuck with Tarrant only because by now he'd lost Doran, and
didn't want to be alone. As I said earlier, I am not going to make Vila out to
be some super strategist here, because many of his actions are childish. It's
just that Tarrant doesn't do much better. Sheer luck he hadn't been killed off
after being captured. Luckily, he took advantage of that luck and managed to
muddle something out of the situation.
  ref Vila's "alibi": what I meant by that was in the event Vila was stopped
and asked what he was doing somewhere, he would be in a position to bluff his
way out. Again, the bad guys had no reason to believe that the "enemy" was on
the ground, at least not until Tarrant had been caught. With Doran saying he
came in on the last convict ship, Vila at least stood a chance of escaping
detection.
   As for Tarrant's ground combat capabilities. Kairos shows his
predisposition to fail to plan for contingencies very nicely. Again and again,
it is a rock-struck Avon who has to bail Tarrant out of his own plans(and
being rock-struck, fails to think ahead suffiiciently to avoid the need to
keep bailing.) In Rumours, Tarrant's sole contribution besides making an
admittedly cute decoy is recognizing the means to get valuable information out
of a dying man. The ground situation was to fast-moving and chaotic for any
real plans anyways, and the whole crew was dealt a bad hand by Avon's
insistance in pushing on despite the changed circumstances. I will award
points to Tarrant for loyalty, courage, and fast thinking, but not for
military genius in this one.
   really enjoying these latest threads; and thanks to the Godmother for
keeping my brain cells firing.:0                    D. Rose

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 19:39:55 PDT
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Guttering (for Nicola)
Message-Id: <199810090239.TAA01977@f282.hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain

No, Nicola, you probably shouldn't have.

Nicola said:
>Guttering or moral superiority?

Pipework, a la Julia's post, of course. Couldn't possibly be moral 
superiority <grin>. Although it might be if we were discussing Blake, 
but that's another story.

>Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

Nicola, what have you been up to (or don't we want to know)?

Regards
Joanne

The _Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy_ skips lightly over this tangle 
of academic abstraction, pausing only to note that the term 'Future 
Perfect' has been abandoned since it was discovered not to be.
--Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe.



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Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 16:01:31 +1300
From: Nicola Collie <nicola.collie@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
To: B7-list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Guttering (for Nicola)
Message-Id: <l03130300b2432b1d4d6e@[139.80.16.149]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Joanne quoted my .sig:
>>Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

and then asked:
>Nicola, what have you been up to (or don't we want to know)?

Why, I've been changing my .sig. Why do you ask? ;)

Although if my experience over the last few weeks is anything to go by,
_real_ friends would help you just plain move, too. I'm rediscovering the
strange passion for cardboard boxes one develops when a move is in the
offing. And it's a difficult passion to sate :\ My house is overflowing
with the damn things, empty and full, and I still gaze speculatively at
orphaned boxes, assessing their size and robustness.

ObB7 - I wish I lived on Liberator. I could take _everything_ with me, and
if I wanted to start collecting a new set of possessions, I'd just blow
everything up....
ttfn, Nicola

---
Nicola Collie		mailto:nicola.collie@stonebow.otago.ac.nz

RIP Finn.
26 sleeps!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 22:11:06 PDT
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Developing a mind like a sewer <sour expression>
Message-ID: <19981009051107.142.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain

Sarah T said:
>And Avon looks so young in that ep. Sheesh, I'd forgotten. My 
>favourite season, the one I rewatch most often, is the fourth, so I'm 
>used to a slightly more decayed version (all the more toothsome for it, 
>of course...  

Sarah, it seems, likes game. Unfortunately, the very word "game" has 
reminded me of something I read last weekend from those everlasting 
archives, involving a confusion over what was meant by "well-hung". For 
which I must thank Julia, so to speak. <rueful smile> I'm beginning to 
think we are looking at the same section of guttering after all. I don't 
think I'll mention moral superiority ever again.

Regards
Joanne

What they call 'heart' lies much lower than the fourth waistcoat button.
--Georg Christoph Lichtenberg


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Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 22:14:26 PDT
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Developing a mind like a sewer <sour expression>
Message-ID: <19981009051427.24481.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain

Sarah T said:
>And Avon looks so young in that ep. Sheesh, I'd forgotten. My 
>favourite season, the one I rewatch most often, is the fourth, so I'm 
>used to a slightly more decayed version (all the more toothsome for it, 
>of course...  

Sarah, it seems, likes game. Unfortunately, the very word "game" has 
reminded me of something I read last weekend from those everlasting 
archives, involving a confusion over what was meant by "well-hung". For 
which I must thank Julia, so to speak. <rueful smile> I'm beginning to 
think we are looking at the same section of guttering after all. I don't 
think I'll mention moral superiority ever again.

Regards
Joanne

What they call 'heart' lies much lower than the fourth waistcoat button.
--Georg Christoph Lichtenberg


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 22:21:47 PDT
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Developing a mind like a sewer <sour expression>
Message-ID: <19981009052148.26602.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain

Did I send a message with the above subject twice? Hotmail thinks I did. 
Genuinely sorry if that's the case.

Regards
Joanne


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 00:29:32 -0700
From: Catharine Roussel <croussel@telusplanet.net>
To: Lysator B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] re: Double Standards
Message-ID: <361DBB56.3E48@telusplanet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> I suspect that Jenna's and Dayna's supposed dislike of Vila had something to
> do with the frequency of the passes he made at them.  Cally may have been an
> alien but that did not mean she didn't care about her shipmates;  she defended
> Vila when Tarrant sent him down to Keezarn. 

I'm quite sure that Cally was genuinely fond of Vila.  In 'Deathwatch'
the mild teasing and the chase game through the halls of the Liberator
is ample proof for me.  It's the most blatant scene of comfortable
comaradship in the whole show. 

-- 
Catharine Roussel		croussel@telusplanet.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 08:21:40 +0100
From: Jackie <jackiew@termlow.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] re: Guttering (for Nicola)
Message-ID: <361DB984.5D6C@termlow.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nicola Collie wrote:.
> 
> ObB7 - I wish I lived on Liberator. I could take _everything_ with me, and
> if I wanted to start collecting a new set of possessions, I'd just blow
> everything up....

Including the Liberator if you`re not careful.  Wouldn`t it be safer to
store your possessions in a hold (or two).  You could always use the
spare cabins after that.  Just make sure you even the loading out else
you`ll have problems with lopsidedness!

Jackie

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 16:31:17 +0100
From: "Julie Horner" <jihorner@dial.pipex.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] [B7]Arbiter/Egrorian
Message-ID: <00e301bdf399$f0b6ce60$3b5995c1@orac>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00E0_01BDF3A2.3D76F6A0"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Last night we were watching our newly acquired video
of Trial/Killer and when the Arbiter of the Trial came in
we were both sure that it was the same actor who
played Egrorian.

Trouble is it's a long time since I watched Orbit and I
was surprised that I had never heard anyone comment=20
on this before so I wondered if perhaps I am mistaken.

Can someone put me out of my misery on this?

Julie Horner

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Last night we were watching our =
newly acquired=20
video</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>of Trial/Killer and when the Arbiter =
of the=20
Trial came in</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>we were both sure that it was the =
same actor=20
who</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>played Egrorian.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Trouble is it's a long time since I =
watched=20
Orbit and I</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>was surprised that I had never heard =
anyone=20
comment </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>on this before so I wondered if =
perhaps I am=20
mistaken.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Can someone put me out of my misery =
on=20
this?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Julie =
Horner</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #256
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