From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #37 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/37 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 37 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's 7 & Myers-Briggs Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's 7 & Myers-Briggs Re: [B7L] Sally's Ariel ad Re: [B7L] Doc Smith Re: [B7L] Doc Smith Re[2]: [B7L] Doc Smith Re: Re[2]: [B7L] Doc Smith RE: [B7L] Starship Troopers Re[4]: [B7L] Doc Smith Re: [B7L] Starship Troopers Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's 7 & Myers-Briggs [B7L] The Web 2/2 [B7L] The Web 1/2 Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's 7 & Myers-Briggs Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's 7 & Myers-Briggs [B7L] Re: B7 as Gods of some description [B7L] Starship Troopers [B7L] Vila as a god [B7L] hi v lo Re: [B7L] hi v lo Re: [B7L] hi v lo [B7L] Re: political prisoners [B7L] Re:Heinlein Re: [B7L] hi v lo [B7L] Pages Bar Re: [B7L] Starship Troopers [B7L] Logic of Empire Re: [B7L] Vila as a god RE: FW: [B7L] Blake and manipulation ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:23:04 -0000 From: Alison Page To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's 7 & Myers-Briggs Message-ID: <886776964.1019895.0@alisonpage.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry if a lot of people are getting sick of this thread. I just read this and I had to copy it. It's how the different personality types are supposed to react when they are having an 'off day'. Just relate these comments to the B7 characters and it's a real laugh. *NT* - < BTW Remember this is Avon..> -Refusal to comply or co-operate -Extreme aloofness and withdrawal -Snobbish, put-down remarks and sarcasm -Refusal to communicate; the silent treatment -Perfectionism due to severe performance anxiety -Highly critical attitudes toward yourself and others *NF* -Attention-getting behaviour -Lying to save face -Fantasy, day-dreaming and trancing out -Crying and depression -Passive resistance -Yelling and screaming *SP* -Rudeness and defiance -Breaking the rules intentionally -Running away and dropping out -Use of simulants (!) -Acting out boisterously -Lying and cheating -Physical aggressiveness *SJ* -Complaining and self-pity -Depression and fatigue -Psychosomatic problems -Malicious judgements about yourself and others -Herd mentality exhibited in blind following of leaders -Authoritarianism and phobic reactions. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:11:49 -0500 (EST) From: "Katherin M. McArthur" To: "Adam L. Fuller" cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's 7 & Myers-Briggs Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Adam L. Fuller wrote: > As for Blake, I really do see his sincerity in that line. One other thing I > forgot to point out last time was his message he left behind for the crew > in "Trial." Avon questioned his sincerity in that message. Everyone else > seemed a little skeptical. But who was it that told Avon that he's wrong? > Cally, another NF. I think that says something. FWIW, I'm an NF and I question his sincerity in that scene also. Well, no, that's not quite right. I think most of what he said was true; but it was obviously deployed in such a way as to get the maximum desired response from the rest of the Liberator's crew. I do this myself; I 'work' people and can often see how best to present something to get the desired result. (Maybe poor old Blake's problem is that all the NT fans see that as manipulation... ) --Katie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:59:18 -0000 From: "Dangermouse" To: , Subject: Re: [B7L] Sally's Ariel ad Message-Id: <199802061857.SAA22079@gnasher.sol.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I really like that ad, especially the look on her son's face when > she says the above line. I even pointed it out to a mate when it > came on the telly in the pub. However, until Julie posted the > above I hadn't realised it was Sally. Oops. Oh no, am I going > to end up talking to B7 actors at Deliverance and not realise > who they are? Bloody hell, and I was struck at once by how she looked *exactly* the same as she did 20 years ago in B7... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:01:23 -0000 From: "Dangermouse" To: , Subject: Re: [B7L] Doc Smith Message-Id: <199802061857.SAA22082@gnasher.sol.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Speaking of gung ho, jingoistic, space adventures - "Starship Troopers" anyone? I > haven't laughed so much in a long time. I loved it- it was even funnier than Men In Black. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:14:12 GMT From: Iain Coleman To: vera@c031.aone.net.au, Blakes7@lysator.liu.se, master@sol.co.uk Subject: Re: [B7L] Doc Smith Message-Id: <23766.9802061914@bsauasb.nerc-bas.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: nCBYSLP4uFYFl/tUt0/3Rg== > > Speaking of gung ho, jingoistic, space adventures - "Starship Troopers" > anyone? I > > haven't laughed so much in a long time. > > I loved it- it was even funnier than Men In Black. > The movie itself was great, but what was really funny was the reaction of the hardcore Heinlein fans on the various sf newsgroups. Iain ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 12:24:00 -0800 From: "PATTI McCLELLAN" To: "Iain Coleman" , "vera" , "Blakes7" , "master" Subject: Re[2]: [B7L] Doc Smith Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit Content-Disposition: inline Well, go on then. What WAS the reaction of the hardcore Heinlen fans on the various sf newsgroups? Patti ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:29:44 GMT From: Iain Coleman To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Re[2]: [B7L] Doc Smith Message-Id: <23848.9802062029@bsauasb.nerc-bas.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: 2SDJzRsF1RlxIvUZgI9Cpg== > > Well, go on then. What WAS the reaction of the hardcore > Heinlen fans on the various sf newsgroups? > > Patti > Oooohhh, I don't think I could really do the subject justice: a DejaNews search on rec.arts.sf.movies would be far better. As those who've seen the movie will know, Verhoeven and Neumeier took Heinlein's book and used it as base material for an ironic, antimilitary satire that was quite opposed to Heinlein's message. Some people had a problem with this, in that they (a) clearly had considerable emotional investment in the novel and its message, (to the point of taking it seriously as a political program) (b) had no understanding of irony, satire or allegory (c) were basically a bunch of humourless twits You can see how this would cause some difficulty. I saw various exchanges where people just point-blank refused to acknowledge that the movie was supposed to be funny. If you want to be alternately amused and depressed by your fellow human beings for a while, read the exchanges on DejaNews. Iain ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:51:42 -0500 From: Ann Reckner To: B7 list Subject: RE: [B7L] Starship Troopers Message-ID: <611CEBF3A548D111935300600833F2FC041CC0@IVYSERVE-2> Content-Type: text/plain Wow, I'm really surprised to hear that "Starship Troopers" was a send up. I didn't see the film but all the press I read in the U.S. and discussion that I heard took it very seriously. From this I got the impression that the filmmaker was quite faithful to Heinlein's book. Ann ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 14:07:00 -0800 From: "PATTI McCLELLAN" To: "Iain Coleman" , "Blakes7" Subject: Re[4]: [B7L] Doc Smith Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit Content-Disposition: inline Nah, I'll pass on reading their comments. Somehow, I'm not surprised. I've avoiding going to see it, because I read the book when I was a young, nasty little warrior, and don't want to revisit that person, more than anything. Patti ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 21:26:40 -0000 From: Ian Lay To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Starship Troopers Message-ID: <01bd3345$e9a4e5e0$f2dadec2@pacific-cc.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ann wrote: >Wow, I'm really surprised to hear that "Starship Troopers" was a send >up. I didn't see the film but all the press I read in the U.S. and >discussion that I heard took it very seriously. From this I got the >impression that the filmmaker was quite faithful to Heinlein's book. Let's put it this way. If it wasn't a send up, then it was a truely awful film. When I saw it I was very dissappointed. I was expecting something much better. But take the special effects out of the film and you have nothing. The only thing that made it watchable was the fact that it was so ridiculus it made laugh. ------------------------------------------------------------- Ian "If I could spell I would be dangerust" Lay /// :-) \\\ Watford Internet Football Club ian@pacific-cc.demon.co.uk or wifc@wfc.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:14:19 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's 7 & Myers-Briggs Message-ID: In message , "Katherin M. McArthur" writes > > FWIW, I'm an NF and I question his sincerity in that scene also. >Well, no, that's not quite right. I think most of what he said was true; >but it was obviously deployed in such a way as to get the maximum desired >response from the rest of the Liberator's crew. That's the impression I get from several of the things Blake does - he's sincere, but he's also doing it for effect. Which I see as manipulation, although I haven't the foggiest idea what my classification is. Must wander over to this website later. The only psychometric testing I've had the results from was the Margerison-McCann Team Management Index, which declared me to be an Explorer-Promoter, with secondaries Creator-Innovator and Assessor- Developer. Which was not exactly a surprise, since that's a typical scientist's profile. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 22:21:02 -0500 (EST) From: NWOutsider To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: [B7L] The Web 2/2 Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Non Sequitorial Zone: Sometimes when I watch the episodes, I feel like I'm watching a foreign movie with subtitles, or an episode of Dynasty; the lines make sense in themselves but they just don't connect the way a conversation should. As an example, let's listen to Blake and Avon at the end of "The Web." Avon says the Decimas prove that biological machines are unreliable. OK. But then Blake says "You can't separate living beings. Being alive involves them with each other." Dandy, but what does it have to do with what Avon said? If you mean you can't treat sentient beings like machines, then say so. And then Avon says "change is inevitable." Well duh, but what has that got to do with anything? Bloopers and Irritations: the endless squealing of the Decimas; the mismatch between the inside and outside of the gerbil habit-trail in "The Web," Blake's hand wound going from a smear of grape jelly to a gooey gash, etc.). With the incredible shooting schedule of the first season I guess we're lucky they did as well as they did. Shoot the costume designer: But start with the limbs: make him/her suffer. Does anyone else experience a rush of unease at knowing polyester will survive into the distant future? No one fares well in these episodes although the Keebler surface outfits, and Avon's Programmable Avon Top with Silver Toned Buttons are a damn sight better than the rest. A whack upside the head is the least Vila deserves for that Web outfit, but Cally with her petal appliques is hardly in any position to criticize. And Blake...baby, sweetie, honey bear, a man of your size should not be wearing a shirt that clings about one's chest so. And those trousers. And Avon's too. And the shoes. And Jenna! What the hell is a woman with your style sense doing in that dress? Thank God for Keebler. Maybe the reason I like B7 is that it's the only series I've ever seen where the dress worse than I do. Blake and Avon: I like that Avon doesn't want to go but does when Blake snaps at him. Avon's immediate conclusion that Blake's accusing him of something when he's not. The wonderful sprawl into the wall when Avon pushes Blake away from the bomb. The teleport scene where Blake handles everyone beautifully, a nice mix of loyalty, trust, and practicality. Love the exchange after everyone's left Blake's line and Avon's smile at it. But the best Blake and Avon moment is on the planet when they're "under cover"--Avon's dig about Blake's irrational conscience, Blake's raised eyebrow, Avon's resignation. 8-) Blake doesn't have to say a thing. And calling Avon his friend. Awwww. My two favorite moments are the teleport scene and the one on the planet. I could talk about them for hours. Anyone? Blake and Jenna: They're a good team, handling the ship and facing Avon. The glimpse of Jenna as businesswoman is cool, not telling Blake about the ships because it could damage his bargaining position. Blake and Cally: I don't know...on the one hand, I like that he puts an arm around her and immediately gets her back into the circle. He shows the others that he trusts her with that gesture. And I love that he reassures her in the teleport and then sets Gan to guard against another takeover. On the other hand, I get nervous when the touching starts. Does he touch the guys that way? Would he? Isn't it sort of like using first names for women and lower-class men? I don't know. Cally and Avon: Looks like Cally's read The Rules. Caution, Will Robinson: Blake doesn't make a big deal of it, but he doesn't take things on trust anymore than his more outspokenly cynical shipmates: he doesn't go dashing down to see Saymon until he's made sure there's no other way to get the ship free; he sets Gan to watch Cally just in case Saymon tries to take her over again. I also like his practicality mixed with altruism towards the Decimas: he wants to help them if he can without ruining the Liberator's chance of escape. I also admire his ability to change plans and improvise, which I think he does effectively. It's life, Jim, but not as we know it: Blake's careful to establish that Geela and Novara aren't independent creatures and the Decimas are. Clearly that's important to him. He's very nonjudgmental about the Decimas, and it's a mystery to me how he can take them seriously at all when my reaction is more like Avon's. Favorite scenes/lines: BLAKE: If the ship's blown up, lofty disinterest won't save you. BLAKE: If it was all right, I wouldn't need you here. BLAKE: Thank you. Why? AVON: Automatic reaction. I'm as surprised as you are. BLAKE: I'm not surprised. VILA: Oh, that's marvelous. We're not sure where we are, but if they were sure they wouldn't know where it was anyway. AVON: What if something should happen to you and we can't get you back? BLAKE: Then all you have to do is get everybody else out of this mess. BLAKE: I don't give a damn about your power cells--there's a friend of mine out there! AVON: Ah well, if it's between the creatures and us there's no argument. Even your irrational conscience should be able to cope with that. [Blake raises an eyebrow at him] What do you want to do? BLAKE: They need the power. They can't survive without it. AVON: Neither can we. BLAKE: I'll bear that in mind. Sue sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu http://www.bgsu.edu/~sclerc/Blakes7.html "And so you see, Simon and Simon were not brothers in real life, only on television." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 22:20:43 -0500 (EST) From: NWOutsider To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: [B7L] The Web 1/2 Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII These comments on "The Web" are drawn from Rallying Call issue 16 (Jan '96) and can be found in their original form at http://www.bgsu.edu/~sclerc/rc16.html. I want to like this episode, I do...some nice crew stuff, great Blake-and-Avon moments, some interesting ideas...but, my God, the head in a jar, the Land of the Tossed Salads... It's Not Nice to Fool With Mother Nature: Two recurring themes are introduced in this episode: environmental depredation, this time caused by runaway fungi, and the evils of genetic engineering. The goo used to heal Blake's hand is a good thing but the ethics of the mission as a whole, immortality on the one hand and the creation of what is essentially a sentient slave species, are clearly dodgy. As if the basic ideas weren't enough to tip you off to badness of it all, Blake says experiments like Saymon's have been banned for centuries, Saymon and his partners were unfit to share the soul of Auronar, and they want to kill the Ewoks' cousins (oh, wait, that's probably a mitigating factor...). But what it comes down to, why they habi-trail dwellers are doomed, is that (MST3K fans chant along) they tampered in God's domain. Get Lost: How does the story of the Lost, cast out because they weren't pure enough or whatever, match up with the story Cally tells about the Thaarn in "Dawn of the Gods"? The Gods in DotG were going to give the Aurons telepathy. Saymon uses it...were the Lost part of the same group as the Thaarn and the Gods? What does it mean when Saymon says they were "from the Auronar but not of them"? >From Auron but not of it, I could understand but the sentence as said doesn't make sense to me ("your words are meaningless to me" 8-). Read my medulla oblongata: I can't shake the feeling that there's something sexist in the way telepathy is used in the series. It's obvious enough in this particular episode--the people that Saymon controls and speaks through are women. He may control Novara, but he speaks through Geela and Jenna and he subverts Cally's will (Novara doesn't have one). Cally herself is an equal opportunity communicator, but men are granted with a greater ability to tune her out (Avon and Tarrant ignore or can't hear her in "Volcano"). Beyond this episode are the others in which Cally's special gift is really a vulnerability that endangers the crew. To my mind, these occasions carry more importance, in terms of the plot, than the times it works to her or the others' advantage. Is her warning to Blake in "Bounty," for example, as important to the story as her possession in "Sarcophagus"? IMO, her telepathy is more often played up as a vulnerability than a strength and I wonder if it would've played out the same with a male character...or whether a male character would've been given the trait to begin with. Well, I don't wonder because, of course, one wasn't. Even on Auron all the telepaths we see are women. I think we have a choice of stereotypes to explain the choice of a female character as a telepath and the way telepathy functions with gender overall: either women are more sensitive to the feelings and thoughts of others, or women have weaker minds and will power to resist intrusion. Sleeping Beauty: Blake's napping again. What has he been doing that has him so knackered? Please say it has nothing to do with Gan sleeping in what seems to be the same room in "The Web." Please, please, please. Whatever it was, it apparently left him groggy throughout the episode because he seemed to have trouble keeping track of the dialogue (not that I blame him, really; so much of it was forgettable). For example, he exclaims "dwarves" when the Decimas attack. Sweetie, darling, we've just had acres of exposition from the Twinfoils (Twins in Tin Foil, see) about the Genesis of the Decimas. Try to keep up. Yes, my butter lamb, we've already established that the Twinfoils are just flesh and blood puppets run by Jug Head so you needn't keep asking about it. OK, so you want to make sure what they are before you leave them to the mercies of the Cabbage Patch Kids, and maybe you were distracted by the lights bouncing off the baked potato jacket jumpsuits, but come on, babe, you're not dense. Of course, Gan does the same when he and Avon are discussing the profitability of Liberator technology, but you're brighter than that. Ring around the collar: What do you suppose that pendant is and where did it get to after this episode? Dog tags? Is it the same as Hal Mellanby's? Dayna and Blake...Here's something that doesn't come up much in fan fic although I occasionally see it flit past in fan debate: How would Dayna react to Blake. I personally think she'd see him as a bit of Daddy Substitute--he's old enough to be her uncle (possibly her father depending on how old you think Dayna is), she was close to her father, Hal and Blake share a political outlook but Blake is far more militant than Dayna's father during her upbringing (he seems to have changed after the slaughter of his group, going by his comments on guns). Sue sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu http://www.bgsu.edu/~sclerc/Blakes7.html "And so you see, Simon and Simon were not brothers in real life, only on television." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 22:02:18 -0600 From: Lisa Williams To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's 7 & Myers-Briggs Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980206214845.00c287d8@dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Adam L. Fuller wrote: >Guardians want to make a contribution, Idealists want to make a >difference, Artisans want to make an impact, and Rationals want to >make a point. Do you really think Servalan wants to make a difference, >contribution, or a point? I think that reducing each temperament down to one word oversimplifies drastically -- but yes, I could easily see Servalan in a couple of those other categories. >Also, look at her sometimes. She likes to get dressed up into >flamboyant outfits and wear lots of make-up. That's an SP trait - >making a impact. 'Cept I do that my(NT)self. In fact, one thing I liked about Servalan was that some of her "flamboyant outfits" were damned near duplicates of what I've got hanging in my closet (though I don't wear white, it doesn't suit my coloring.) It goes with the arrogant self-confidence of the NT -- "If you've got it, flaunt it. And I've got it, SO THERE." And one favorite character of mine in another fandom who likewise goes in for flamboyant, attention-getting outfits is a definite NF (ENFP); he's fond of fantasies, sees life as a drama with himself as the star, and dresses accordingly. No, I don't think you can tie that one to a given temperament -- except perhaps that it would be least likely in an SJ, who is more likely to run to the conservative and practical in clothing. What it comes down to is that I don't see Servalan as a P. At all. And when I read the descriptions of ESTP and ISTP, I don't see Servalan -- whereas when I read ENTJ, I do. Again, we are probably seeing the character a bit differently, and since she's fictional there is no one definitive answer. Looking at other characters in positions of great power, in other fandoms, many of them seem to be SJs -- Straker in UFO, Cowley in The Professionals, Waverly in The Man From U.N.C.L.E. (ISTJ, ISTJ, and ESTJ respectively, in my judgement.) They're all definitely "Guardians", working to preserve the structure of society, not to take over, redesign, and run things to their own ends, and I don't put Servalan in their camp. But then I thought about Blackpool of Wizards & Warriors, and what I come up with is ENTJ. *Psychotic* ENTJ, but definitely ENTJ. And come to think of it, he really does have a lot in common with Servalan. Including flashy clothes. That doesn't mean that ENTJs are necessarily megalomaniacs (though we may have to keep an eye on you anyway), any more than INTJs are necessarily mad scientists. But this is definitely the type that *I* see as the best match for Servalan, as I perceive her. Plus, that gives you such a nice ENTJ-ENFJ conflict between her and Blake. (More NT-NF stuff there.) And points up the strong similarities and instinctive understanding between her and fellow NT Avon. >As for Blake, I really do see his sincerity in that line. Oh, I do, too. But there are quite a few who would argue with you and who just see ol' Blake being manipulative again. >But who was it that told Avon that he's wrong? Cally, another NF. I >think that says something. It says, at least, that people tend to note characteristics which remind them of themselves. They can also easily misinterpret those characteristics as being much more like themselves than they actually are, a common source of misunderstanding. Mind you, I also see Blake as an NF. Just not as strong an F as you do. -- - Lisa Lisa's Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 22:02:21 -0600 From: Lisa Williams To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's 7 & Myers-Briggs Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980206215456.00c287d8@dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Katherin M. McArthur wrote: >(Maybe poor old Blake's problem is that all the NT fans see that as >manipulation... ) I can see the combination of sincerity and manipulativeness that you're talking about. And I definitely see Blake as manipulative; I just don't see that as a point against him. I rather admire his skill at it, actually. (I like Blake, from a safe distance. If I were around him I'd probably react very much as Avon does -- NFs can be damned irritating, but often fascinating as well.) -- - Lisa Lisa's Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 12:17:04 +1000 From: Tim Richards & Narrelle Harris To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: B7 as Gods of some description Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980207121704.007ae4f0@wire.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ovina wrote: >I could certainly see Vila as Coyote. Yes, I was thinking of him as a Coyote or maybe one of the rabbit trickster deities. I don't know any names at the moment, but a friend was telling me about a South African rabbit-trickster, and an AMerican Indian one, from whom characters like Bugs Bunny were developed. > >Blake would make a good Homeric god -- lots of indignation and righteousness, >but with many human foibles. Very much so. I've always thought of him as being a Greek Tragic Hero in many ways, so a Greek god is right up his alley. > >Avon is almost too Faustian to be a divinity (however, divine he may be -- bad >pun bad pun smack me...please). He shares some of the characteristics of the >darker aspects of Dionysus: I found it hard to think of a suitable god for Avon to be - he is so terribly human. He doesn't seem to have the make-up for godhood (despite anything Meegat might think - and I always thought it telling that he was rather embarrassed by the misunderstanding.) I wondered if he might be a god of the underworld... I can't think of any god of logic. If anyone reads comics, Metron of The New Gods might be a bit closer, but he is too cold. Despite his cool appearance, Avon is really far too emotional for his own good. Is there a god of self-delusion? Narrelle ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tim Richards and Narrelle Harris parallax@wire.net.au http://www.wire.net.au/~parallax "Look, he's winding up the watch of his wit; by and by it will strike." - Shakespeare ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 18:52:51 +1100 From: Fran Myers To: B7 Subject: [B7L] Starship Troopers Message-ID: <34DC12D3.221A@ozemail.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian sez: > From this I got the> >impression that the filmmaker was quite faithful to Heinlein's book. I haven't been following this thread, unfortunately, but can't resist this bit. Any movie that was faithful to a Heinlien book would look like a send up. Heinlein wrote some excellent short stories, but his novels were immature, sexist trash. They were sent up once under the a title something like "earth virgins meet the slime monsters." He was one of the earlier SF writers during the popular period of SF, but his stories were rather "Biggles in Space", about the standard of fifties SF movies. I could never understand why he was regarded as a serious SF writer. Fran M ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 18:53:01 +1100 From: Fran Myers To: B7 Subject: [B7L] Vila as a god Message-ID: <34DC12DD.4D25@ozemail.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Isn't there a Loki or something like that in Scandinavian mythology? A clever trickster, if I recall it properly. Fran M ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 18:53:59 +1100 From: Fran Myers To: B7 Subject: [B7L] hi v lo Message-ID: <34DC1317.434@ozemail.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julia sez: > Michael Keating has occasionally commented on how he felt that Vila was> a small, rodentish, hide-in-the-shadows person, so that's how he played> him. Amongst other things, he and Paul Darrow are actually more or less> the same height. > > On the other hand, I find it rather difficult to imagine Paul not being> flamboyant. Let me state firstly that I ADORE Avon, and love the way Paul played him. However, Paul seems to be rather typecast in flamboyant, cold, evil roles. At least I've never seen him play anything else. Michael is an ACTOR, and I can easily imagine him playing Avon. It would be a different Avon, of course, but I'm sure it would be just as convincing. Just because Michael plays a weak character in B7 doesn't mean he is incapable of playing a strong one. He's an ACTOR, not a STAR. How about the occassional flashes of intelligence Vila shows? Convincing, I think. The fact that Vila is such a popular character with B7 fans (usually 2nd after Avon in polls), shows how capable Michael is. He's able to make a weakling likeable. Do you think Paul would be capable of that? I think Paul would play Vila like some Shakespearean villian! When he's Avon, his scene-stealing overacting is appropriate. And Michael is much better looking than Paul. And looks more intelligent, too. Fran M I hope this makes sense - I'm recovering from a day in Canberra. Three hour drive each way. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:00:42 -0000 From: Alison Page To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] hi v lo Message-ID: <886843250.2022227.0@alisonpage.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What a great post from Fran, who is of my mind.. When I first watched B7 as a teenager I adored Avon (of course) and I still think he is a fabulous character. But when I rewatched the show last year for the first time in ages what amazed me was what a strong actor Michael Keating is, and how thoroughly he had worked on the Vila character. This made me start noticing Vila, even when he is not the centre of the action. The upshot was I fell for him. I know this must seem inexplicable to people who think he looks like Phil Collins (retch) but there you are. Seriously - I think he's the character who would be most fun to know, and best in bed (I mean of the men). > And Michael is much better looking than Paul. And looks more > intelligent, too. Hoooo dangerous ground. However I'm sure he is more intelligent - he's never written any daft books for a start. > I hope this makes sense You know it does Alison Oh - just read the next post. Yes I think Vila is a knock-down cert for the 'trickster' character, therefore Loki (Coyote, raven, brer rabbit, anansi spider etc.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 04:51:36 -0600 From: Lisa Williams To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] hi v lo Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980207044655.00a84ea4@dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Alison Page wrote: >Oh - just read the next post. Yes I think Vila is a knock-down cert >for the 'trickster' character, therefore Loki (Coyote, raven, brer >rabbit, anansi spider etc.) I would hesitate to identify Vila with Loki because, while cast as the comic trickster in many legends, Loki was essentially malicious and evil. Note the killing of Baldur, for example, and the fact that at Ragnarok Loki is slated to fight *against* the gods, to kill and be killed by Heimdall. He's a much more sinister character than the standard comic trickster, though that's what he probably evolved from. (The nastier side of Loki shows up primarily in the later myths.) I haven't been following this discussion too closely; I assume it's already been mentioned that the Greek Hermes and Roman Mercury were both gods of thieves? -- - Lisa Lisa's Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 08:39:34 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: [B7L] Re: political prisoners Message-ID: <19980207083934.26592@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am taking this back to the main list, because I have a Blake's 7 related question - given the statements below... On Fri, Feb 06, 1998 at 08:52:59PM -0000, Louise Rutter wrote: > John wrote: > > >>A soldier is a person who fights for his or her > >>country WITH A MANDATE FROM THAT COUNTRY. > >>Neither the IRA or the UDA can claim to have such a mandate. > >>In a revolution as in a democracy, the mandate comes from the > >>people > > Steve replied: > >One problem with this definition and that is it rules out political > >prisoner status for anyone imprisoned during a civil war. It also > >would not have classed Nelson Mandela as a political prisoner > >during his many years in a South African jail. > > Civil wars are a very sticky situation, but I've thought through all the > civil wars I know of and I can't think of one where both sides were not > backed by a largish percentage of the populace, ie the mandate of the > people, as John put it. Nelson Mandela certainly had the mandate of the > people - the fact that most of the people weren't allowed to vote doesn't > change the fact that most of them backed Mandela. The people of Ireland do > have the vote, all of them on both sides of the border, and the vast > majority clearly do _not_ back Sinn Fein/IRA. ... where does that put Blake? Did Blake have a mandate from the people? Or, to put that in a negative form, was Blake *rejected* by the people? (like the IRA was) Do we have any way of knowing what the opinions of the people were in any case? "His death could be used by the dissidents. They need a hero. Alive or dead, Blake could be it." -- Morag (Blake's 7: The Way Back [A1]) "From Alphas to Labor Grades know of Blake's defiance of the Federation. They talk of him as a sort of hero." -- Counselor Joban, to Servalan (Blake's 7: Hostage [B8]) The latter quote seems to indicate that Blake, indeed, did have popular support, though of course he doesn't seem to have had logistical support at all, unless you count liasons with other rebel leaders such as Avalon. -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://connexus.apana.org.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "std/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 07:02:15 EST From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re:Heinlein Message-ID: <6b2440df.34dc4d49@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Ahhhh, I happen to be a Heinlein fan. And saw the movie. And liked the movie. But the movie could have had any number of names besides Starship Troopers and gotten the messages across that the producers were trying to make. My problem with using Heinlein's title and characters are simple. 1) They are using Heinlein's name to add "credibility" and draw in SF fans. 2) The satire was much weaker and very imitative of the Robocop movies. 3) NO CAP TROOPERS! This one in particular really annoyed me; much of the book handles the Bug wars as a technology vs. Mass attack styles of combat(rather like much of British Colonial Military history). The type of combat depicted is an automatic loser for the humans. The loss ratio depicted simply spells the end of humanity. Of course, I may not be a hard-core enough fan to be considered a true Heinlein fan... Deborah Rose ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 10:29:22 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] hi v lo Message-ID: <+ut$6HACeD30EwkU@jajones.demon.co.uk> In message <34DC1317.434@ozemail.com.au>, Fran Myers writes > >I hope this makes sense Not entirely - from your post, you appear to think that I believe that Michael Keating is a limited actor. I was saying the opposite. Much as I adore both Avon and Paul Darrow, I think Michael Keating is the better actor. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 12:29:31 -0000 From: "Jenni-Alison" To: "Space City" , "Lysator" Subject: [B7L] Pages Bar Message-Id: <199802071228.NAA23160@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Help! Does anyone have the directions to Pages Bar which Steve posted, or know where it is in relation to any underground station? I've sold the computer which I had all my older emails on, and forgot to check first! Thanks Jenni ------------------------------ Date: 07 Feb 1998 14:03:54 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Starship Troopers Message-ID: Ann Reckner writes: > From this I got the impression that the filmmaker was quite faithful > to Heinlein's book. I thought it was, actually. It was less subtle, but I think that's mainly because Heinlein had a rather higher opinion about his audience's intelligence than Verhoeven had. Of course, if one thinks that Heinlein's message was "The military is way cool!", then it would look like a sendup, I guess. Those who think so are urged to (re-)read "Stranger In a Strange Land", keeping in mind that he wrote "Starship Troopers" at the same time as he wrote that one. For a far more in-depth analysis than is appropriate for this list, see Alexei Panshin's "Heinlein In Dimension". -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se This is between me and the vegetable! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 13:16:06 +0100 GMT From: STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Logic of Empire Message-Id: <29891186MCR1@MCR1.poptel.org.uk> Judith said: "How much would you like to bet that 'Logic of Empire' will be better written than 'The Sevenfold Crown' in spite of being a fan production?" I've heard it and it is. cheers Steve Rogerson Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ Make your own tribble! Buy a hamster and cut off its legs ------------------------------ Date: 07 Feb 1998 14:24:15 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: algemy@ozemail.com.au Cc: B7 Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila as a god Message-ID: Fran Myers writes: > Isn't there a Loki or something like that in Scandinavian mythology? A > clever trickster, if I recall it properly. You recall corectly. But Loki also has an ego the size of a major mountain and takes huge risks just for kicks, which I really can't see Vila doing. The rabbit-type trickster gods suit him much better, as Narelle pointed out. -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se This is between me and the vegetable! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:31:25 -0500 (EST) From: NWOutsider To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: RE: FW: [B7L] Blake and manipulation Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 1 Feb 1998, Louise Rutter wrote: > Just as valid an interpretation as any other. Though I still think "You > don't really believe that" is taking a bit of a dig. 8-) And only a week later, I reply: Could be. Not that I'd blame him. 8-) > Oh, definitely, there are double standards. As many posts this week, IMO, demonstrate. If the topic is manipulation, only Blake is mentioned. I've yet to see a thread begin (ever) about Avon or Servalan or any other character being manipulative although it is manifestly true. Blake isn't the only character to suffer from a double standard in fan fic, of course. Everyone else in the crew comes off as a moron because Avon is the only one who thinks Blake is manipulative. If Avon is right, everyone else is a dupe. I don't know about you, but Jenna, Vila, and Cally all seem to me, in the series, to have vastly better skills at judging character than Avon does. I think it's part of his character to illustrate the usual split: good with technology/not good with people. > By "excess manipulation", do > you mean that there are a disproportionate number of fanfic stories where > Blake is manipulative cf instances of manipulation in the series? Or do you > mean that the degree of manipulation is excessive when it occurs? Yes. 8-) > I've > certainly seen some examples of the latter, but the former is more open to > interpretation. As you said earlier, Blake's manipulativeness doesn't > exactly jump out of the screen at you, and I've had some very long > discussions in the past about exactly what is and isn't manipulation 8-) 8-) How you definite it makes all the difference. I think of it as being deceitful and sneaky on a regular basis...which is why Avon seems far more manipulative to me, and Servalan as well, but most of the other characters, even if they occasionally have a lapse, don't. For example, Jenna is very clever in "Bounty" and "The Keeper." She is capable of manipulating men when she has to. She also with-holds information if she thinks it's for the best (e.g. not telling Blake about the aliens in "Time Squad" and the ships in "The Web"). But I wouldn't call her a manipulative character even though she has the skills to do it well. Blake, while he is certainly capable of being very good at it, he doesn't lie or hide information as a regular practice. If he did, the scenes where he does lie and try to be sneaky wouldn't have the significance they do. To me, the importance of the scene in "Pressure Point," when he says he misled them a little, is that he is acting in an unusual way because this is so important to him that he has let his desire to achieve this goal over-ride his conscience and good judgment. The scenes in "Voice from the Past" function in a similar way. Blake is not acting like his usual self. If he was, there wouldn't be a reaction. > > On the other other hand, when reading in other fandoms I've also > >seen a lot of interest in manipulation as a theme, whether it seems > >inherent to the universe or not. So maybe it's one of those ideas that's > >big with fan writers regardless of canon...like slash. I can't think of > >another example. > > This I do agree with - Carnell or other psychostrategists crop up in an > awful lot of fiction, and I think they'd appear even more if more people > felt confident about writing those sort of thought processes! I couldn't > write anything convoluted if I tried.... Maybe there's something in Myers-Briggs types about predisposition to see manipulation where it doesn't exist. 8-) Sue -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #37 *************************************