From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #55 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/55 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 55 Today's Topics: Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety) Re: [B7L] Re: Safety Re: [B7L] Safety Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's body count Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's body count Re: [B7L] oracle of avon [B7L] Re: Countdown: Why Blake Stayedon Albian [B7L] Grandstanding Re: [B7L] Safety Re: [B7L] Re: Safety Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety) [B7L] Re: Blake's bodycount Re: [B7L] Re: Countdown: Why Blake Stayedon Albian [B7L] New frame captures: "Star One" Re: [B7L] Re: Countdown: Why Blake Stayedon Albian Re: [B7L] Avon and Vila Re: [B7L] Re: Countdown: Why Blake Stayedon Albian Re: [B7L] Re: Safety Re: [B7L] oracle of avon Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's body count RE: [B7L] Re: safety Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety) RE: [B7L] Re: Countdown: Why Blake Stayedon Albian Re: [B7L] Re: safety Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:13:05 -0500 From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety) Message-ID: <199802201913.OAA08476@yfn.ysu.edu> Sue wrote (quoting me): >> >(a) assume it is Blake's base and know this is all a misunderstanding > > Yup, pretty much. 8-) Why? >After al, Carol, _you're_ assuming Klyn >is part of Blake's group even though there's nothing in the episode to >support it. 8-) We can't prove she was a rebel, but she did appear to work for the man. She asks Blake what to do about the unidentified flyer (Avon's). I'd sure rather assume she was a rebel than believe that Blake was playing bounty hunter in the midst of the enemy or even neutrals. How do you explain hauling in a prisoner one day and putting him/her on your security force the next? > But, really, it shouldn't have gone that far to begin with. Avon >had a lot of alternatives, right up to the minute he pulled the trigger >(three times, at point blank range, on an unarmed man who had never hurt >him and had trusted him). Avon shouldn't have dropped into that hole in >the ground... I agree it shouldn't have gone that far. I wish Avon had never gone to GP. But it did go that far, and that's what I was basing my comments on. As for Avon's shooting Blake, I think there were mistakes on both sides. If Blake trusted Avon, why test Tarrant, for instance? If Avon hadn't arrived to find his already battered pilot being kneed in the gut, he might have been in a far kinder frame of mind when Blake showed up. > Avon discovers that Blake is working as a bounty hunter on Gauda >Prime. He's known this for weeks, maybe months. He knows that GP is >crawling with law enforcement types and that he and his crew have large >prices on their heads and may be recognized. He has contradictory >opinions on Blake's purpose because he knows, and Vila knows, that Blake >is highly unlikely to be a bounty hunter although Orac says it's so. Avon >wants to get to Blake and approach him about joining forces. I'm going to have to respond to these individually because the choices cover a range of options that stray from the statement above. You academics never could write multiple choice questions... ;-) > Should Avon: > >a. Rush on over to GP without doing much preliminary ground work, >like contacting Blake to find out what's going on; take a flyer >right into the base and barge around with his crew without doing >any reconnaissance, even though the base is crawling with people >who might recognize them as famous fugitives from justice; at best >blow Blake's cover and your chances for the future, at worst get >everyone killed by taking them in blind. Ground work was definitely needed. His problems began because he wasn't aware of the gunships. Basic information that Orac should have been able to obtain. Contact Blake--no. What's he going to ask him? Are you a bounty hunter? If Blake was a bounty hunter, would he say yes? Go into the hole in the ground. No. Avon's definitely not at his best. (Which is exactly why I put the Scorpio bodycount in Avon's tally.) >b. Find some place to go between Xenon and GP and work out a plan, >starting with finding out what Blake's up to, perhaps by talking to >him from a safe distance. (Teal, for example, has at least one >citizen who would roll out the red carpet for a bit). Definitely find some place safer to formulate a new plan. At which point he'd probably remember that he had never felt very safe with Blake. Why even think about doing that all over again. But not Teal, thank you very much. We have a long, lean pilot's welfare to consider. I don't think he'd last long as First Champion. >c. Check on your pilot in the rubble of your ship if it's shot down >on approaching GP, asuming you decide to rush over. I have to admit to a tad of sentimental indulging over this question, which has crossed my mind more than once (as I picture battered Tarrant to expect Avon to show up and check on him at any minute...). But Avon was having an emotional moment over the crash (much like Blake's emotional moments in "Countdown"). He didn't go to Scorpio because he believed Tarrant was dead. But as long as he didn't see it with his own eyes, he could maybe fool himself into believing otherwise. I think Terminal taught Avon that he really didn't want to see dead shipmates. Avon made a mistake in not checking on Tarrant, but it's one I can understand. >d. Assuming you rush over and your ship is shot down and your pilot >picked up by persons unknown, follow the flyer to the base and land >at a distance from it. Send one of your lesser known colleagues >in to check the place out, and/or use Orac to try and contact Blake >discreetly. Arrange for a meeting where your colleagues can cover you >while you find out what's going on. To the best of our knowledge, Avon did not know the flyer he was following had Tarrant in it. But I'll repeat, he should never have gone into that hole in the ground. I'd recommend he go to an urban area where they can fade in with the multitudes and regroup. And I'll also repeat, he should never have rushed to GP in the first place. >e. Grow your sideburns and infiltrate the base by pretending to be an >Elvis impersonator. Nah, we've seen what "Avon" looks like as Elvis. It's not a pretty sight. > Just some suggestions on how things could have gone if the >script didn't call for a big shoot out at the end. But would we all be as obsessed as we are without that big bang? Carol McCoy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:33:50 -0000 From: "Jennifer Beavan" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Safety Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >And No, I'm not blaming Blake; there are extenuating > circumstances on both men's parts. D. Rose But Blake doesn't need extenuating circumstances for being butchered. In the space of a minute or so from the time they met Avon shot an unarmed man 3 times with a weapon that didn't have a stun setting - a man he had no reason to believe would ever betray him or the rebellion. Blake was the victim on Gauda Prime, not Avon.IMHO, of course. Jennifer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:59:32 -0000 From: "Jennifer Beavan" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Safety Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Judith said > The moment Tarrant said 'He's betrayed you', Blake was as good as dead. > > Remember, Tarrant had risked his own life to get Avon safely off Scorpio. If > there was anyone Avon would believe at that moment, it was Tarrant> I take the points you make but what always irritates me is that Avon doesn't bother to ask Tarrant what he means. it's all emotion, no thought. Jennifer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:28:30 -0500 From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's body count Message-ID: <199802201928.OAA09362@yfn.ysu.edu> Avona wrote (quoting me): >> But we're not counting by who did deed, but rather by who was the >> fearless leader who put his follower in the position to be snuffed. >> Which makes Klyn part of Blake's total. Blake let Tarrant run free >> and allowed Avon access to the base without taking precautions to >> protect his followers. >> >In that case, Guada Prime kills of Avon's crew go to both of them, since >Blake planned for Avon to hear of him and come there. Free will, Avona, free will! Blake indicated that he was waiting for Avon, but no one twisted Avon's arm to go GP. And for sure no one twisted his arm to go there without better preplanning (see my response to Sue). >But this is a strange manner of counting. Doesn't >it depend too much on the circumstances life throws them? Bad luck or >good luck plays an even bigger part sometimes than bad or good planning. As Harry Truman said, the buck stops with the leader. You do the best you can with what you've got, and accept the responsibility for bad luck should it flow your way. My body count methodology is equally fair to all. I know about these things. I didn't want to flaunt my credentials or anything, but I'm an official, licensed body count person. I do this for some of the big ones: Bond, Hannibal Lector, etc. ;-) Also, I'm impartial in the debate of are you safer with Blake or Avon that led to the body count. Because I wouldn't choose either of them. Give me Gan. I know he'd let me hide behind him. Tarrant would also probably let me hide behind me, but there's more of Gan. :D Carol McCoy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:31:29 -0500 From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's body count Message-ID: <199802201931.OAA09632@yfn.ysu.edu> Iain wrote: >Personally, I say it's all Vila's responsibility. If he hadn't distracted >that guard on the "London", none of this would have happened. Personally, I think Iain is channeling Travis again. ;-) Carol McCoy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:46:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] oracle of avon Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri 20 Feb, J. I. Horner wrote: > Roger The Shrubber wrote: > > Brian Croucher is covered under Jan Chappell > > Now there's a coupling I bet no-one has tried in fan-fic! Wanna bet? I've seen it twice. Try 'Ten Credit Touch'. There's also one in a story Misha was working on. Although admittedly Travis was on top... Judith PS I sometimes suspect that there is no pairing so improbable in B7 that no-one has ever written it. I can claim what is possibly the only Travis1/Travis2 story... -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:42:54 -0500 (EST) From: Sondra Sweigman To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Countdown: Why Blake Stayedon Albian Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Carol and I are almost certainly not going to convince one another on this topic, so let me just sum up my position for those who are still undecided :-) For Blake to stay with the intention of dying along with the Albians would indeed have been a noble (and futile) gesture. But to stay in order to maximise Avon's and Grant's chance of being retrieved alive was a reasonable act, only minimally risky to himself and Vila. Carol contends there was plenty of time for both of them to leave without added risk to Avon and Grant before the countdown reched a critical stage. Then why did Blake initially choose 50 as the cutoff point? Clearly he thought that *was* the critical stage. This may be contrary to the evidence Carol cites from other episodes (and I respect her research), but we all know that consistency between episodes was never a strong point of the series. Therefore I prefer to take each episode as the primary context for its own interpretation, and while we can't ask Terry Nation what he had in mind, the way it was acted strongly suggests to me that we are meant to interpret Blake's staying as a rational decision to give Avon and Grant the best odds of making it out alive. Can I "prove" it? No. But neither can I prove that in BOUNTY we're meant to believe Sarkoff and Tyce are lovers until almost the end--or for that matter that in COUNTDOWN, we're meant to believe that Del Grant was Avon's rival for Anna until he's revealed to have been her brother, and I'm equally convinced that those are the correct interpretations ("correct" meaning the ones the writer intended to convey). Not every truth can be "reasoned to." Indeed, reason divorced from intuition can be a recipe for disaster. Just ask the cleanup crew hauling the bodies out of the tracking gallery on GP :-) Sondra ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:03:05 -0800 From: Jacquelyn Taylor To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Grandstanding Message-ID: <34EE0BA9.7C96@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tramila wrote: >And yes. I agree. It was unnecessary to risk Vila's life to do a >little grandstanding but unfortunately that was what Blake did best. >Grandstand. > >Time to go back into lurkdom. Not so fast. You know more about the subject of Blake's grandstanding than anyone else. Do, please, enlighten us. I've been looking forward to another tedious round about Central Control and Star One. Jackie ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:05:25 -0800 From: Helen Krummenacker To: J.Beavan@btinternet.com CC: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Safety Message-ID: <34EE4474.7A99@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jennifer Beavan wrote: > > Judith said > > The moment Tarrant said 'He's betrayed you', Blake was as good as dead. > > > > Remember, Tarrant had risked his own life to get Avon safely off Scorpio. > If > > there was anyone Avon would believe at that moment, it was Tarrant> > > I take the points you make but what always irritates me is that Avon > doesn't bother to ask Tarrant what he means. it's all emotion, no thought. > > Jennifer How many ways can you take, "He's betrayed you"? And how long is he supposed to discuss it with Tarrant while Blake could be gunning them down, if he's really changed sides. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:09:22 -0800 From: Helen Krummenacker To: J.Beavan@btinternet.com CC: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Safety Message-ID: <34EE4562.2A74@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > a man he had no > reason to believe would ever betray him No reason to believe Blake would betray him? Tarrant's warning is no reason? The evidence all around them is no reason? (_Someone_ called in the Federation) The wierd changes Blake has gone through since they last met? Blake's own words? None of that is any reason. Granted, Avon was WRONG and Blake did not deserve to die. But to say he had no reason to make that mistake... "He who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken." You must be from Auron! (No offense intened. I liked Cally a lot.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:22:52 -0800 From: Helen Krummenacker To: Iain Coleman CC: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety) Message-ID: <34EE420E.4EDB@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > OK, it might not be the wisest of plans, but isn't it just Avon all over? > I mean, Boucher is often criticised for letting plot dictate character, > but this singleminded charging in is Avon's style (I was going to say > "right up Avon's alley", but I know the kind of impure minds that lurk > around here). Rumours of Death, Moloch, Terminal, the list goes on: once > this boy gets an idea in his head, he goes straight for it,and never stops > to think about potential screwups or contingency plans. Which is exactly > the opposite of the way he behaves when Blake's in charge: critical, > cool-headed, thinking out all the possibilities. But as soon as Blake's > out of sight, it's "Logically they must all be dead. Let's leave" or > "Telport to Servalan's palace: it's not as if there might be an > insurrection in progress or anything". This isn't inconsistent: I'm a lot > like that. I don't assume people are dead if they don't answer the phone, > mind you, but I can always see the dangers and need for groundwork and > caution in other people's work, but I tend to charge straight into my own > projects in a very singleminded way. > Now I think I've changed my mind-- I'd rather be in Blake's crew after all, as long as Avon was around. Mind you, Blake might get sick of me saying "Avon has a point" and decide to space me. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:50:23 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" Subject: [B7L] Re: Blake's bodycount Message-ID: <199802202251_MC2-341D-ED87@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Carol continued our debate: >>I'm not talking morality or sensible courses >>of action, I'm talking plain accounting! > >But we're not counting by who did deed, but rather >by who was the fearless leader who put his >follower in the position to be snuffed. Which makes >Klyn part of Blake's total. This is precisely the point at issue: I understand that we're talking about the bodycounts of followers, not kills, but I'm complaining that it's not fair in this sort of competition to be able to sabotage the other competitor - by shooting his followers to make him look less competent. It's like Jayasuriya, Shahid Afridi and wide balls (and if you can follow this, you can follow anything). Some months ago, there was an argument on the cricket statisticians' list about whether wide balls (defined as balls passing out of reach of the batsman) should be counted in the record of balls received by a batsman. Some people argued that the batsman did face the wide ball, so it counted. More of us argued that, by definition, the batsman couldn't score any runs off the wide (unlike a no-ball, the other illegal delivery), so it was unfair to include it when measuring the batsman's scoring-rate. And we pointed to the case of Sanath Jayasuriya, who scored the fastest hundred in one-day international cricket - 48 balls (excluding any wides) in April 1996. A few months later, Jayasuriya was bowling to a youngster called Shahid Afridi who was to beat his record by reaching 100 in 37 balls (excluding any wides). Had wides counted in Afridi's innings, and had Jayasuriya been more concerned with personal glory than his team's interests, he could have stopped Afridi from taking the record by bowling lots of wides at him. Likewise, had Blake realised that he and Avon were competing for the title of Leader with Fewer Dead Followers, he could have sabotaged Avon's chances by shooting the Scorpio crew. But that would be absurd. Therefore I argue that dead followers killed by a direct competitor (ie Klyn by Avon) should be disqualified from the scoring. Hanneke asked: >Thin ice, Harriet. Now tell the world which >one of Avon's gorgeous, tall, slender, curly >haired companions you would have *liked* >Blake to shoot? Gorgeous, I can't say, but how many curly-haired companions did Avon have? Count the head. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 20:18:13 -0800 From: Helen Krummenacker To: Sondra Sweigman CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Countdown: Why Blake Stayedon Albian Message-ID: <34EE5585.2ADF@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Can I "prove" it? No. But neither can I prove that in BOUNTY > we're meant to believe Sarkoff and Tyce are lovers until almost the > end--or for that matter that in COUNTDOWN, we're meant to believe that Del > Grant was Avon's rival for Anna until he's revealed to have been her > brother, and I'm equally convinced that those are the correct > interpretations ("correct" meaning the ones the writer intended to > convey). Not every truth can be "reasoned to." Indeed, reason divorced > from intuition can be a recipe for disaster. Just ask the cleanup crew > hauling the bodies out of the tracking gallery on GP :-) > Huh? We were supposed to think that Del was... or that Tyce... OH GOD! Clean minded little me assumed it was family on both occaisions without being told. The way Sarkoff talked to Tyce, I could never see her as a lover. It seemed clearly petulant, practical daughter and over-the-hill father. I may have seen Rumors of Death before Countdown, so I take no credit for figuring Grant was a family name. Hands up, who thought that these people were couples, not family? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:29:17 -0600 From: Lisa Williams To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, space-city@world.std.com Subject: [B7L] New frame captures: "Star One" Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980221012906.0069d58c@dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "Star One" has been added to my frame capture library. There are 177 images in the collection for this episode. The B7 library can be accessed at . I plan to work on "Blake" next. -- - Lisa home: work: Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:29:16 -0600 From: Lisa Williams To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Countdown: Why Blake Stayedon Albian Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980221002916.00d57ab8@dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Helen Krummenacker wrote: >Hands up, who thought that these people were couples, not family? Never would have occurred to me, in either case. I thought Sarkoff & Tyce were quite obviously father & daughter, certainly didn't (and don't) see anything which would have led me to any other conclusion. And I just assumed Del Grant was Anna's brother, because that's what he struck me as acting like. I can see how another interpretation would be possible there, though. -- - Lisa home: work: Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 09:53:43 GMT From: kawm@dove.mtx.net.au (Ken Minne) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and Vila Message-ID: <34ee9e94.1127603@mail.mtx.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Good day all, On 18 Feb 1998 11:39:59 -0800, Carol K. wrote: >>The Scene goes something like this: >> >>Avon :"Before I decided to put my talents to more profitable use....." >>Jenna: "And got arrested" >>Avon: "I handled the computer analysis for a research project into matter >>transmission. It was based on a new alloy...." >>Blake: "Aquatar" > >Surely Avon had to be an Alpha to be in a position of that much responsibility. >He says he handled 'THE' computer analysis for the research project, which >indicates he alone was responsible for ALL computer analysis. It doesn't seem a >Gamma or Beta would be given that kind of position. > >Carol K >(AVON RULES!!!!) > My memory may be faulty, but I don't actually recall any independant confirmation that Avon was the "Second Best Computer Man in the Federation" or however it is that Vila acclaims him in Spacefall. Was this confirmed anywhere else? If Avon was the second best computer expert in the Federation, then he was almost certainly Alpha grade. He may also have been one of the ruling elite, with access to education that far exceeded that available to the masses. By comparison Blake was probably forced to live in what the Federation thought was a secure area since his first trial. Once again, Blake must have had access to deeper sources of information before his original trial. If Vila was exaggerating, then Avon was still likely to have been a Alpha, and may have chosen to have let Vila spread the misinformation or the grounds that the wrong people will think him an arrogant man and leave him alone out of fear, and the right people will respect him more. Catch you later, Walter Minne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 21:02:08 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Countdown: Why Blake Stayedon Albian Message-ID: <19980221210208.53385@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Feb 20, 1998 at 08:18:13PM -0800, Helen Krummenacker wrote: > Huh? We were supposed to think that Del was... or that Tyce... OH GOD! > Clean minded little me assumed it was family on both occaisions without > being told. The way Sarkoff talked to Tyce, I could never see her as a > lover. It seemed clearly petulant, practical daughter and over-the-hill > father. I may have seen Rumors of Death before Countdown, so I take no > credit for figuring Grant was a family name. > Hands up, who thought that these people were couples, not family? It never crossed my mind that Tyce was Sarkoff's lover. I wasn't expecting that she was his daughter, but I assumed that she was a platonic companion/servant of some sort (if nothing else, she was definitely his chauffeur!). Del Grant and Anna Grant, however, is a bit more iffy. In Countdown, they just talk about "Anna" not "Anna Grant", and Rumours of Death was not in my memory (though I may actually have seen it, I had forgotten it by the time I saw Countdown for the first time). I really don't know whether I thought that Del Grant and Avon had been rivals for Anna's affection, but it is more likely that that crossed my mind than the Tyce/Sarkoff scenario. *That* didn't have the ghost of a chance of crossing my mind. Kathryn Andersen (25 days to take off!) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "He may be dead, but he's still trying to outthink me." -- Vila Restal (Blake's 7: City At The Edge Of The World [C6]) -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://connexus.apana.org.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "std/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 06:52:32 EST From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Safety Message-ID: <572a197e.34eec002@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-02-20 14:11:30 EST, you write: << But Blake doesn't need extenuating circumstances for being butchered. >> Well, given that he put Tarrant through his little game, let the man escape, then Tarrant tells Avon that Blake is out to get them, Blake would have shown better sense to have simply paused for a moment until he could explain. The unarmed man part does not impress me; I have seen situations where an unarmed man has hurt a police officer y because the officer was reluctant to use his weapon. Blake is bigger and stronger than Avon; only an idiot would let someone like that in arm's reach. And Blake would have better served to have used his old style of talking with Avon. Look at the difference in the way the fake Blake in Terminal handled their encounter to Blake's actions. As I said, I am not blaming Blake for what happened, but it was within his power to have avoided the tragedy, just as Avon could have not pulled the trigger(and have the series end with Arlen blasting them both down?) D. Rose ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 06:57:58 EST From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] oracle of avon Message-ID: <3965e50c.34eec148@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-02-20 14:49:48 EST, Judith writes: << I sometimes suspect that there is no pairing so improbable in B7 that no- one has ever written it. >> I have friends pestering me to do a Servalan/Orac story...unless someone has already done it and gets me off the hook? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 07:42:21 -0500 (EST) From: NWOutsider To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's body count Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Iain Coleman wrote: > Personally, I say it's all Vila's responsibility. If he hadn't distracted > that guard on the "London", none of this would have happened. If Vila hadn't dropped his gun on the London, it probably wouldn't have. Do we cheer or boo? Sue sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu http://www.bgsu.edu/~sclerc/Blakes7.html B.I.T.C.H. "It's not just what I do. It's who I am." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 12:44:17 -0000 From: Louise Rutter To: "'B7 Lysator'" Subject: RE: [B7L] Re: safety Message-ID: <01BD3EC8.1608D1E0@host5-99-50-18.btinternet.com> Brent wrote: > I'd go so far as >to say that Vila and Blake may have both died in the crash and Blake would >have been the better man for it. (snip) > if they both die, it isn't pointless. It shows solidarity and >nobility--things the Federation didn't have. Things that Avon seemingly >lost somewhere along the way. This is the worst of all options. Not only is it a complete waste of one life, but it means that Servalan wins and Orac falls into her hands. If both die together, they put the lives of the rest of the Scorpio crew in severe jeopardy aswell. I'm not for one moment suggesting that was Avon's motive for going after Vila, just pointing out that your theory doesn't hold up too well. If you want a moral way out, I'd say draw straws. >When you look at something solely through the eyes of pragmatism, the >morality of an act gets lost. If you would follow Avon, then ask yourself >whether you would have the guts to flush Vila out the airlock yourself, >since following Avon is following his example. I don't know what I'd do in that situation, panic does funny things to people. Can you honestly say you _know_ you'd be thinking of the moral aspects rather than the practical? >This isn't about the immorality of Avon's actions in Orbit, it is about >whether I would feel safer with Blake or with Avon. Survival with both >could be argued to be about fifty-fifty, but with Blake, I don't have to >worry about a bullet in the back from my leader when the chips are down. >What sense does it make following a leader you may be forced to kill in >order to save yourself anyway? Unfortunately, with Blake you'd also end up walking into Federation bases for the sake of a noble cause. You might not have to worry about a bullet in the back from Blake, but you'd be doing enough worrying about a bullet from the Feds. At least when Avon puts the lives of his crew at risk (Stardrive, Games), he does it because success will be of _immediate_ benefit to their survival chances, such as acquiring the Stardrive. I'd rather risk my life for my benefit than for a revolution that isn't going to happen. I'm not much of an idealist. Louise ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 08:16:22 -0500 (EST) From: NWOutsider To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety) Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Carol A. McCoy wrote: > >> >(a) assume it is Blake's base and know this is all a misunderstanding > > Yup, pretty much. 8-) > > Why? Ummmm...Carol, the answer was in the rest of the paragraph. >> >After al, Carol, _you're_ assuming Klyn >> >is part of Blake's group even though there's nothing in the episode to >> >support it. 8-) Like that, see? You assumed it, why shouldn't he. > We can't prove she was a rebel, but she did appear to work for the man. > She asks Blake what to do about the unidentified flyer (Avon's). Klyn talks to Deva on the intercom, as she does in an early scene. In both cases, it's DEVA who gives the order, although in the second, he takes his order from Blake and relays it. When Klyn and Blake speak directly, they seem friendly but don't even remotely discuss anything relating to his true identity. In fact, Deva's insistence on referring to Blake as "the bounty hunter" whenever anyone else is listening and Blake's line to Klyn. "Nothing in it for me, then. Outlaws tend not to use distress beacons" and their later conversation about the activity make me think she isn't in on the plan at all. > I'd > sure rather assume she was a rebel than believe that Blake was playing > bounty hunter in the midst of the enemy or even neutrals. How > do you explain hauling in a prisoner one day and putting him/her on your > security force the next? Maybe Blake was playing Arlen. We're given so little on what Blake was doing, everything is speculation. Also, the official order to give Arlen a job probably came from Deva. And most of the bounty hunters, and perhaps therefore some of the base security, were outlaws turned outlaw catchers themselves. > I agree it shouldn't have gone that far. I wish Avon had never gone > to GP. But it did go that far, and that's what I was basing my > comments on. I know and I was basing most of mine on intense annoyance at the blame the victim game that you know goes on. I wanted to point out that there are many, many ways Avon could've avoided the mess he got them all into. All of the options were Avon's, he's the only one who could have stopped the snowball before it became an avalanche and he didn't. > As for Avon's shooting Blake, I think there were mistakes on both > sides. If Blake trusted Avon, why test Tarrant, for instance? If Because the last person he met named Tarrant was a treacherous bastard who got lots of people slaughtered. Because although he suspects, from the teleport bracelet in the wreck, that Tarrant has some connection to Avon, he _doesn't know what it is_. Because Tarrant could be Avon's enemy, Avon's friend, or Avon's friend like Tynus was Avon's friend. > Avon hadn't arrived to find his already battered pilot being > kneed in the gut, he might have been in a far kinder frame of mind > when Blake showed up. Avon has no reason, since he knows _nothing about what's going on at the base or what Blake's doing_ to assume Blake has anything to do with the technician. Avon, as you said, doesn't know that Blake took Tarrant to the base. > I'm going to have to respond to these individually because the choices > cover a range of options that stray from the statement above. > You academics never could write multiple choice questions... ;-) It was perfectly straightforward: a was what Avon did, b,c,d,and e were alternatives he didn't consider but hould have (except maybe e). > Contact Blake--no. What's he going to ask him? Are you a bounty > hunter? If Blake was a bounty hunter, would he say yes? "Hey, Blake, long time no see. So what've you been up to, dude? Still rabble rousing? Why don't we get together...there's this place called Freedom City, you might remember it...No, I lost track of the others, why do you ask...?" Or have Vila do it, that might work even better. >>b. [go to safe place and plan] > Definitely find some place safer to formulate a new plan. At which > point he'd probably remember that he had never felt very safe with > Blake. Why even think about doing that all over again. Gee, never felt safe with him but risks everything he has to get back to him twice, risked his life for him several times, falls to pieces because he thinks Blake might've let him down...What I would urge him to remember and rethink is the bizarre idea that Blake would be a figurehead with Avon controlling him. That never flew in the past and is unlikely ever to...but I think it was just face-saving bluster unless Avon duplicated Glynd's black box. > But not Teal, thank you very much. We have a long, lean pilot's > welfare to consider. I don't think he'd last long as First > Champion. You'll understand this is not a concern for me... > >c. Check on your pilot in the rubble of your ship if it's shot down > >on approaching GP, asuming you decide to rush over. > > didn't go to Scorpio because he believed Tarrant was dead. But as > long as he didn't see it with his own eyes, he could maybe fool > himself into believing otherwise. Excuse me while I snort derisively. Ah, that's better. 8-) > I think Terminal taught Avon > that he really didn't want to see dead shipmates. Avon made a > mistake in not checking on Tarrant, but it's one I can understand. Glad you can. This is yet another stage at which Avon had it in his power to avoid what happened later and didn't take it. > >e. Grow your sideburns and infiltrate the base by pretending to be an > >Elvis impersonator. > > Nah, we've seen what "Avon" looks like as Elvis. It's not a pretty > sight. It's the white vinyl jumpsuit and sequined cape that give me nightmares. Sue sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu http://www.bgsu.edu/~sclerc/Blakes7.html B.I.T.C.H. "It's not just what I do. It's who I am." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 13:21:14 -0000 From: Louise Rutter To: "'B7 Lysator'" Subject: RE: [B7L] Re: Countdown: Why Blake Stayedon Albian Message-ID: <01BD3ECB.D4AC8080@host5-99-50-18.btinternet.com> >Hands up, who thought that these people were couples, not family? I always thought they were family from the start - I couldn't see a couple who argued as constantly as Tyce and Sarkoff sticking together, so I assumed relatives. Del Grant's a little harder, but I can better imagine family indulging in a blood feud, than a potential lover who'd been rejected anyway. Hell, it's hard trying to think as far back as when I first rewatched these episodes 8-) Louise ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 06:53:24 -0800 From: Helen Krummenacker To: Louise Rutter CC: "'B7 Lysator'" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: safety Message-ID: <34EEEA64.36FE@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >When you look at something solely through the eyes of pragmatism, the > >morality of an act gets lost. If you would follow Avon, then ask yourself > >whether you would have the guts to flush Vila out the airlock yourself, > >since following Avon is following his example. I meant to respond to this earlier. Just because I think Avon's more honorable than he's given credit for doesn't mean I have to choose his solutions for my own. Cally followed him in the same way she followed Blake, willing to let him do most of the planning but able to make intelligent objections. Why should floowing him mean following his example. I would never go on a vengence mission like "Rumors of Death". I sure as heck wouldn't kiss Servalan! On the other hand, if Vila and I had been in the shuttle, I might have needed the gun. I'm much smaller than Vila, and _he_ might have gotten ideas about ensuring _his_ survival. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 06:57:14 -0800 From: Helen Krummenacker To: NWOutsider CC: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety) Message-ID: <34EEEB4A.2708@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > But not Teal, thank you very much. We have a long, lean pilot's > > welfare to consider. I don't think he'd last long as First > > Champion. > > You'll understand this is not a concern for me... And yet it would have been for Tarrant's teammates. Yeesh, and Avon's supposed to be ruthless! -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #55 *************************************