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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 100
Today's Topics:
[B7L] Flat Robin #36 - By Arkaroo
[B7L] Blake-Avon-Tarrant
[B7L] Assassin
Re: [B7L] Ooh, I've binged...
Re: [B7L] Blake-Avon-Tarrant
[B7L] Not for the faint of heart
Re: [B7L] Blake-Avon-Tarrant
[B7L] Phoenix 4
Re: [B7L] Assassin
Re: [B7L] The Logic of Empire
Re: [B7L] Assassin
Re: [B7L] Assassin
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you
Re: [B7L] Assassin
Re: [B7L] Assassin
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you
[B7L] Vila song
Re: [B7L] Assassin
Re: [B7L] Assassin
Re: [B7L] Assassin
Re: [B7L] Ooh, I've binged...
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:53:32 -0700
From: Arkaroo <woollard@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Flat Robin #36 - By Arkaroo
Message-ID: <36EC843C.1AF5@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
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[By Arkaroo - Thank you, Jacqueline, for suggesting appropriately
changes RE: John Grisham to make the story more Pratchetty; and thank
you Penny, for telling me what the actual chapter number was. And I'd
like to thank the Academy, and my mother, and Zoroaster, and the number
Eleven. <bows> I've got another chapter coming up soon, and then I'll
let somebody else go next. I'm going to move the action back into the
city, probably. Bum.]
***
The Bursar sat on a ragged lump of peat and clutched his head. Still
dazzled by his encounter with Mr. Imbecile and his bat companions, he
had bobbed along like a cork in a washing-machine in the churning tide
of Servalan's mob as they had marched out to the Ankh-Morpork bog. The
god Eddwode led the way bog-ward, tromping along merrily with a small
organist in tow. The organist kept up a steady litany of incidental
music on its wheezing harmonium, a cavalcade of minor chords warring
valiantly with a polka rhythm.
The wizards had willingly submitted themselves to the mentality of the
mob after having arrived from the city, being ever curious as to the
intentions of gods (especially gods carrying megaphones), and they had
made camp on a bramble covered hillock overlooking the churned earth of
the bog. They had placed the Bursar, still gently whimpering from his
frequent sojourns into the thickets in search of bramble-berries, on a
convenient heap of peat as they made plans for dinner (or, rather, made
plans to get someone to get them dinner) and conjectured as to the
location of the harlot. So, it was this convoluted chain of events that
allowed the Bursar to end up alone beside the only patch of brambles in
the bog area that still contained a nest of Andromedans. He wasn't aware
of this, naturally, but, then again, the Bursar was rarely aware of
anything outside his own head, with the exception of Ridcully.
`Look, Chaplain, a suitable looking humanoid victim. We've got to meet
up with the Captain's party in the city, so get possessing!' a voice
whispered from somewhere around his feet. Looking down, the Bursar could
see a cluster of rats peering up at him from under a singularly prickly
looking bush.
`I don't feel like it, Ensign. My ventral mucousal sac still aches from
that stewpot,' said a squat, patchy-haired rat. 'Make the Purser do it.
He's useless.'
`I don't want to go in there,' whined a small rat clutching a poor-boy
cap. `There's so many teeth... Can't we go through the rear entrance? It
seems more natural.'
`Takes too long to reach the brain through that route,' replied the
largest of the rats brusquely. `Better scenery, I will admit, but we're
not to be lollygagging about here. Quickly, man, Up for Andromeda! Or,
in this case, Down for Andromeda! Whichever applies, hop to it, my boy.'
The Bursar felt a peculiar rustling in his robes (which was nothing
unusual; he'd be more surprised to feel a non-peculiar rustling), and a
rat began clambering up his leg.
`Mister Rat?' he enquired of the largest Rat. ` I can hear you talking.
I think my pills have worn off...'
`Quickly, men, into character!' hissed the Rat. It dropped onto four
legs and began to gnaw theatrically on a lump of stone. `Squeak, squeak,
and/or squeak. Ooh, boy, do these incurable and highly infectious
diseases sting. Squeak. Perhaps you notice the long, hairless tail I
have attached to my rear, indicating my peerless rathood. Squeak.'
`Bursar!' yelled Ridcully. The Bursar twitched slightly. `Who are you
talking to?'
The Bursar looked up to see that the rest of the wizards had congregated
around his seat of peat. `Rats... Intelligent rats. Rats are very
clever, you know. They go everywhere that people go. These ones can
talk.'
`Bollocks! Squeak! We are but dim rodentia, huddled in the shadows while
dining on filth,' whispered the Rat through clenched teeth. 'Purser! Get
*in* there!' The rat on the Bursar's robe looked around fearfully, then
leapt into one of the Bursar's pockets.
The Lecturer in Recent Runes peered beneath the bush.`There *are*
actually rats down there, Ridcully. I don't think they're intelligent,
though.' He bent down towards the leader of the rats. `You're not a
smart little rodent, are you, Mister Swarming-With-Disease?'
`No, I'm not, Mister Going-To-Get-A-Nasty-Bite-on-the-Unspeakables.
Squeak,' replied the Rat.
The Lecturer straightened up. `See, Ridcully, just regular rats. A bit
insulting, but no intelligence. Bursar, have you got your pills?'
`What are these round objects I'm adhering to?' asked the Purser from
deep within the Bursar's pocket. `They feel rather odd. And quite...
adhesive. Oh my, I've been absorbed.'
The Bursar patted his pocket absent-mindedly, ignoring the prone rat
lying stunned at the bottom, then pulled out his little wooden pill-box.
Snapping the lips open, he reached in and and pulled out a
slightly-more-viscous-than-usual pill.
`For Andromeda!' shrieked the Pill as the Bursar placed it on his
tongue. `And freedom!' The Bursar nodded happily as the pill howled its
way down. Screams of terror were the only way to know it was pure frog.
Dried Toad Pills just grumbled about the weather on the way down; Skink
pills sang show-tunes. Nothing hated being eaten as much as a Frog Pill
did.
Meanwhile, the wizards were contemplating the cluster of rats beneath
the bush. Ridcully occasionally poked at the bush with a long stick.
`Most likely it's just learned how to repeat human sounds. There are
species of birds that do that. Ponder Stibbons told me that even ravens
can talk, I believe,' said Ridcully.
The surrounding wizards looked thoughtful. 'Well, ' said the Senior
Wrangler. 'In my experience, that's true, but only if you think
'keckkeckkeckSkrawSkraw' has meaning outside of the obvious.'
'My aunt had a parakeet once, when I was a lad,' mused Ridcully,
swinging his stick idly. 'Peculiar little fellow. Liked to stare at
itself in a little mirror all day long. I spilled some Essence of
Depleted Octarinium from my "Junior Wizards Fun'n'Stinky Chemistry Kit"
in its water dish once, and the daft little bugger drank up the whole
mess, then tried to swim. Sank like a stone, poor creature. Lovely bird.
Magnificent plumage.'
'What, you mean those are *parakeets* crouched under the bushes, covered
with hair and appended by long, hairless tails?' asked the Dean,
confusion on his face.
'Don't be a dullard,' replied Ridcully. 'Parakeets can't talk. There's
another breed of bird that can speak as well as a human. What was it
called?'
'Old "Wiggly" Fitzsimmons always sounded like a seagull to me,' said the
Senior Wrangler. 'He taught "Introduction to The Friendly Denizens of
the Dungeon Dimension 101".'
'Are there any friendly Denizens?' asked the Lecturer in Recent Runes.
'I guess not. The Teacher's Assistant ate him three months into the
course. Waited until just after the withdrawal deadline. Truly evil
creature. Lovely plumage.'
'I think that pill was bad,' said the Bursar, peering in his Frog Pill
box.
'What *is* the name of that creature I'm thinking of?' pondered
Ridcully. 'You know, the kind pirates favour...'
'Hoop earrings?' asked the Bursar, clutching his belly. He could hear
giddy laughter from somewhere adjacent to his diaphragm.
'No, Bursar, hoop earrings rarely eat seeds and try to peck your eyes
out. These *birds* have an altogether different mien. Very verbose,'
replied Ridcully.
`Oh, you mean those large, varicoloured creatures with the
intimidatingly long lifespans, expensive tastes, and the tendency to
repeat embarassing words in public?' asked the Dean.
`A harlot?' cried Senior Wrangler, a gleam of interest appearing in his
eyes.
`No, a *parrot*,' said Ridcully triumphantly. 'Very different creature.
Less feathers, for starters.'
***
It's been said many, many times that the Disc was swarming with lesser
gods. Stir your morning cup of coffee-like liquid and chances are you'd
mixed the god of Lucky Bacillus [1] in with your two sugar and cream.
There were small gods, though, and Small Gods. Any gods whose influence,
while perhaps not up to Blind Io's level of godliness in terms of
getting things burned down and people strung up, managed to be important
to the perpetuation of a story-line for a reasonable period of time,
were given free lodging for the duration of their importance in the
`Guest' Lodge high atop Cori Celeste. A relatively restrained lodging
built (or, rather, created whole from the aether, gods being, as a
whole, reluctant to use circular saws) in an A-frame chalet style, it
squatted dolorously amidst a terrifying sprawl of rusted statuary,
leaf-clogged swimming pools, and heaps of empty food tins.
Inside was no more decorous; with no central heating and a typically
god-like disregard for ventilation, the dank and mildewed rooms reeked
of aeon upon aeon of young gods given free lodging and a wet bar. The
palpable aura emitted resembled nothing so much as a youth hostel after
a World Cup. A blackboard tacked to the front door read, 'Welcomme Gods
of Collaboratyve Fictione : Noe Myracles After Elevene'. The
notice-board next to the check-in desk was thick with yellowed
mimeographs and scraps of lined paper -- you'd be surprised how many
gods are trying to unload old mattresses and Attari MMDCs [2].
We turn our attentions now to a darkened corner in the communal
entertainment room, where the stacks of old Jon Grifhamme novels (Being
the Accounte in Several Parts of the Torrid and Explicit Affairs of a
Younge Barrifter in Steamey Southerne Maul) and tattered Madde-Libs are
illuminated by a single candle smoldering merrily in a empty sardine can
[3]. In the flickering glow of this candle sat two toga-clad gods,
perched on lawn-chairs around a badly scarred coffee table. Aside from
the ethereal glow which wreathed them both, they appeared as standard
humanoids, albeit somewhat paler and a great deal more unwholesome.
The first god, distinguished by his mop of reddish curls and a small
badge pinned to his toga which read "God of Self-Referentiality", was
hunched over a thick sheaf of papers, a haphazard collection of various
sizes, thicknesses, and degrees of soilage, held together with a steel
bulldog clip. His lips moving silently as he ran his finger along the
lines of text, he emitted small barks of disgust and/or laughter at
regular intervals.
The god of Self-Referentiality (let's call him Solipsos) turned to the
second god, whose custard-stained toga and enormously horned helmet
identified him as the God of Offensive Similes (lets call him Syggar),
and waved the manuscript furiously. '"Waggling... his... dripping...
chili-dog?" Where do you get these ideas? Good gods, you've managed to
work in almost...' He paused to peer at the sheaf of papers. 'Almost
nine allusions to foodstuffs as... *manhood* substitutes, not to mention
this "cleavage dip-holder". I'd say "get your mind out of the gutter",
but it would be more appropriate to say "get your libido out of the
refrigerator before it wilts the Alfalfa sprouts". '
Syggar giggled and gnawed on his index-finger. 'So... do you like it?'
'You must have been tremendously hungry when you wrote this. Or
tremendously, um... look, just turn into a swan and get this out of your
system, really,' said Solipsos. Syggar snickered quietly and walked over
to the refrigerator [4].
A small, wizened creature in a soiled overcoat strode into the room,
grinning broadly. It grabbed a stool and sat down between the two gods.
`Hey everybody! Have I mentioned how handsome, clever and integral to
the plot I am? Perhaps I'll go hang around with some important
characters, help them out, make sure they get frequent foot-massages...'
It squinted at the sheaf of paper resting on the table. 'Hello, what's
this?' Eyes gleaming beadily, the withered little god shuffled through
the stack of papers with feverish intensity.
'"Dip-Holder"! I know where *I'm* headed!' cried the little creature. It
hopped off its stool and scuttled towards the door.
`Who on Cori Celeste was *that*?' asked Solipsos.
`That's Merisu, god of Extraneous Characters,' replied Syggar. 'I'll
tell the cook to sift a little more saltpeter into its porridge this
evening. That'll keep it out of our hair. So...' Syggar held up a large
tub of yogurt he had extracted from the refrigerator. 'Do you know what
bacteria *do* in this stuff?' He tittered.
'Oy vey,' sighed Solipsos. 'I'll be in the cafeteria if you need me. Try
not to think of anything rude involving fish and chips, or I'll be
forced to subsist on Jello for the rest of my days.'
Syggar giggled madly. 'There's *always* room for Jell-O...'
-----
[1] Founder of the Bacillusnalia, the frenzied orgy of ingestion and
division that makes yogurt such a sordid adventure.
[2] "A marvellous New differential Engine able to Recreate the
Experience of Pinge-Ponge without Need for Friends"
[3] All gods can see in the dark; but, additionally, all gods like a
nice theatrical effect. Hence the candle. They also like sardines. Hence
the sardine can.
[4] Which contained three empty bottles of hot-sauce, three thousand
packets of plum-sace, two petrified figs, a container of gelatin-free
yogurt, and something powdery in a plastic bag which turned fuschia if
you touched it. Not to mention the small society of mold which had
reached the point in its evolution where it began to question the
existence of the great god Pinesol.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:25:24 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Blake-Avon-Tarrant
Message-ID: <19990315042525.12155.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Mistral writes:
<3) Making a decision that this person is worthy of your trust and your
loyalty; worthy, in fact, to be followed.
4) Finally making a decision that that loyalty is absolute.>
I can see what you're saying, but my reading of the Blake/Avon
relationship founders on number 3. I don't think Avon ever came to this
point, consciously or unconsciously, of thinking about Blake's worth in
this. He gave Blake that loyalty whether Blake deserved it or not, he
simply couldn’t help himself. He may never have made up his mind about
whether he should have. So in effect we have:
3) Finding that this person *has* your trust and your loyalty, but you
aren't about to admit it for one minute.
4) Finally making a decision that that loyalty is absolute, whether you
like it or not (and you don't.)
For me, the words 'personal loyalty' fit the bill quite well for
Blake/Avon, because it was totally personal. With Tarrant, I think it
*was* a more conscious decision, once Avon started actually leading, and
I think Lisa's choice of 'allegiance' fits.
Also from Lisa:
<I would never expect either Avon or Tarrant to forbear from commenting
on their respective leaders' misjudgements <g> >
Loudly and at length. But come on, if Avon had stopped criticising,
Blake would have immediately hauled him into the Medical Unit for a full
check-up.
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:27:15 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <19990315042716.24406.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Mistral writes to Carol:
<Having given a warning, he would consider his obligation ended.>
At least until he talked himself into the necessary rescue. <g>
To which Carol replies:
<I'd never claim he was a bleeding heart or idealist (perish the
thought), but I do think he was a man of conscience. Granted, he would
probably consider his duty done after he did that. And granted he was
doing it as much for himself (spare himself future guilt) as for them.
I can't help but think a part of him who preferred less togetherness
wouldn't have minded if a few of his crewmates had gone missing, but he
resists the urge to help them along that path. :) >
Yeesss...some conscience. Not a lot. The core of *my* Avon is still very
much pure selfishness. Things got complicated when his conscience, his
reluctant loyalty to the same crewmates, and - just sometimes - his
emotions got tangled up and overrode the selfishness. Part of the
fascination is in watching if and when this point occurs...
<I think he could have used a review course in the School of Nastiness;
he really
needed lessons on how to suppress those kinder instincts that kept
foiling his attempt to be Cruella de Kerr.>
Maybe if he'd ever stop pretending they don't exist, they wouldn't keep
tripping him up when he wasn't looking. <g>
Lisa said :
<I see more differences in character interpretation for this show than
any of my other fandoms, and especially for Avon & Blake...My point was
that someone with a significantly different interpretation isn't taking
the character you saw and changing him, but is actually perceiving
something else to begin with.>
I hate to say 'me too'...but I totally agree with this. There is *so*
much room for different views - even wildly different views - of these
characters, and all firmly based on what we see on the TV - along with
an awful lot that doesn't properly fit into any of our views (the damned
man doesn't make anything easy, does he?).
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:50:16 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ooh, I've binged...
Message-ID: <19990315045017.18636.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
>>4) Neil, add to your list the fact that DotG doesn't seem to have
enough
>>plot to fill 50 minutes (unless you've said that already, and I
haven't
>>noticed <smile>).
>Are you sure you mean 50 and not just 5?
>Neil
Oh, I think there's enough to fill up at least five minutes. <grin>
Stretch it enough, and there might just be ten. Definitely not enough to
fill fifty minutes. If Cally's persuasion of the Thaarn had taken
longer, perhaps...what we have is a very brief subplot, where Cally
makes the Thaarn turn off the generators, and then everybody runs like
hell back to the ship. Not quite enough.
Regards
Joanne
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:14:46 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake-Avon-Tarrant
Message-Id: <4.1.19990314231354.03c753b0@dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sally Manton wrote:
>I think Lisa's choice of 'allegiance' fits.
>Also from Lisa:
><I would never expect either Avon or Tarrant to forbear from commenting
>on their respective leaders' misjudgements <g> >
I think those were from Nina, actually.
- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 00:45:02 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Not for the faint of heart
Message-ID: <36ECC88D.3237DBA2@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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As may have been gathered from my discussions with Neil,
my idea of what may be considered offensive often differs
from the norm. Therefore I consider it only politic to say up
front, that the only people I hope to be offended by the
following are 1) Travis, 2) cartoonish space-pirate slavers,
and 3) bumbling Nazi caricatures. Having said that,
please read the following at your own risk.
Some time back, someone suggested that Travis might
possibly have been attracted to Servalan, and that on
Goth he might have been considering including her in
his plan to take over Star One. Speculation and boredom
are in this case the parents of lunacy; I present for your
displeasure:
Travis and Servalan at Goth
by the Scorpi-eaus
(tune: Yesterday)
Servalan,
Dear Supreme Commander Servalan,
Though I'm missing bits I'm still a man
Oh, won't you see that, Servalan?
When all lands
Have been conquered by Andromedans
We need not fear any rebel bands
Oh, think about it, Servalan!
When Star One has been destroyed
You and I could be
Side by side together
And rule the galaxy-y-y-y...
Servalan,
I have always been your biggest fan;
Won't you join me in one final plan,
Supreme Commander Servalan?
Mmmmmmmmmmm....
******************************************
Don't say I didn't warn you.
Ni!
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 02:01:40 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake-Avon-Tarrant
Message-ID: <19990315100140.18059.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
<I think those were from Nina, actually.>
Humblest apologies to both of you - names never were my strong point,
even when I'm reading them while I'm writing.
Sally
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 21:16:54 +1100
From: Tim Richards & Narrelle Harris <parallax@wire.net.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Phoenix 4
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990315211654.007d9a10@wire.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Well, folks, Phoenix 4 has been online for a while, but it is now online
with *pictures*. Val Westall has illustrated the two stories for this B7
story, which you can find through:
http://www.wire.net.au/~parallax/blakes7/relleb7.html
The stories and illustrations (in their glorious full A4 size) will also be
produced as a special edition of Chronicles this year, and information will
be forthcoming when we have them!
Narrelle
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tim Richards & Narrelle Harris
parallax@wire.net.au http://www.wire.net.au/~parallax
"The past, present and future are only illusions,
however persistent" - Albert Einstein
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 03:56:43 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <36ECF57A.CA070986@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lisa Williams wrote:
> mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
>
> >(Besides which, Lisa, if Avon is INTx, I think some of the things Carol has
> >said are *extremely*unlikely;
>
> Oh, I agree; but then, your view of Avon is fairly close to my own, and the
> chap Carol describes I don't even recognize, so naturally I *would* agree.
Well then, I hope someday (not today) we get a chance to
discuss your/my Avon; I actually find discussing fine shades
of meaning far more illuminating than discussing sweeping
differences.
> I didn't even hint at not discussing character motivations -- I find it
> quite intriguing to try to understand how someone managed to see a
> particular character in *that* way. Or why they'd want to. (In some cases I
> have to confess eternal mystification, though.)
Here you speak for me also.
> My point was that someone
> with a significantly different interpretation isn't taking the character
> you saw and changing him, but is actually perceiving something else to
> begin with. Which was actually a response to Carol's earlier remark of "Do
> we like the Avon on the screen or do we want to change him?" -- I don't
> think that's usually the issue.
Right. I simply don't see that *I* am trying to change him,
either, which I felt like was the intent of the remark. Having
said that, I *would* in fact, probably give Judith's version
of Blake as much as or more weight than my own, since
I gather that's where she's placed the bulk of her attention;
I'd give Carol's view of Tarrant a great deal of weight,
because that's what she's thought about. (And I'd trust my
own, or any other INTx's [she said evilly] Avon, before
trusting a Tarrant Nostra's, because it seems to me as if
relating to Tarrant and understanding Avon are mutually
exclusive concepts <veg>).
Also, I tend to appreciate the views of people who identify
with a character, or have the same MBTI type (assuming
of course, the characters can be said to have one). I'd love to
find someone who identifies, for example, with Jenna. I'm
making the assumption that this kind of approach will eventually
give me a far more complete and complex understanding of the
individual characters and relationships than I could get by
making all of the observations myself, filtered through my own
comfort zones. Example: I have a 'Blake' in my own life to deal
with; it would be useful if I understood Blake-Avon better
from Blake's point of view, instead of mostly just from Avon's
point of view, which is more natural to me and therefore of no
use IRL.
Generally, when I get down to splitting hairs over terminology
on as fine a level as Carol and I have been talking about, it's
because I'm trying to find some baseline of agreement to
build on, someplace to start talking *from*. My original intent was
to try and build a better picture of Tarrant, but I seem to be having
a great deal of difficulty building a bridge between 'my' Avon
and 'Carol's' Tarrant. I begin to think they might actually kill each
other, not just 'paw the ground' and make threats.
As if it matters <smile>.
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:47:05 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] The Logic of Empire
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.990315144420.9215B-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
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Julia said:
>All right, I confess. I haven't actually listened to T7FC all the way
>through, because the day it was broadcast, I got about half way through
>before being distracted by a pile of newly arrived zines. It really does
>say something about how appalling it was that I'd rather read zines than
>listen to a play with a fair chunk of the original cast reprising their
>roles. The official BBC tape is still in its cellophane wrapper.
I actually prefer to read zines than watch back many of the episodes,
Julia, so you're not alone.
I didn't mind T7FC. I listened to it on the radio, and then I've listened
to the BBC tapes. Just my general approach, I think - I don't mind wading
through acres of crap to get at good bits.
At least there was no gaudy make-up!
Una
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:51:13 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.990315144936.9215C-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
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Lisa said:
>"Hogan's Heroes" has been airing in Germany for some time now and, I
>understand, has been quite popular. In the dubbing they have used "hick"
>regional accents to make the bumbling Nazis look even *more* bumbling.
How interesting. I also gather that the BBC's bottle of champagne for
selling 'Allo Allo' to the Germans has been won, although not the one for
selling 'Tenko' to Japan.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:38:53 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <58778ea8.36ed1b7d@aol.com>
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Mistral wrote:
> Right. I simply don't see that *I* am trying to change him,
> either, which I felt like was the intent of the remark.
In some of our statements, I thought we were both tangenting off to our
personal views as opposed to raw canon (and I'm sorry if I didn't always make
it clear where one stopped and another began, or if anything I said was
offensive). Also, recent discussions have made it hit home (to me) that what
I thought was "raw canon," what everyone believed, may not have been raw
enough. Quite a revelation that! But useful. One shouldn't get complacent.
> (And I'd trust my
> own, or any other INTx's [she said evilly] Avon, before
> trusting a Tarrant Nostra's, because it seems to me as if
> relating to Tarrant and understanding Avon are mutually
> exclusive concepts <veg>).
<tsk, tsk> You are assuming I relate to Tarrant when part of me is more in
tune with Avon. And it's the introverted Avon side of me that makes me think
Avon seriously wanted to be free of Blake. Blakes are great people, but not
when one is sharing small living spaces with them. At least not for me; just
the thought of living on Liberator with him makes me feel as if the walls are
closing in. But maybe Avon is more flexible than I am in that regard.
> Also, I tend to appreciate the views of people who identify
> with a character, or have the same MBTI type (assuming
> of course, the characters can be said to have one).
Actually, I find a combination of both to be most useful. Those who strongly
identify with a character can be blind to certain things that an outside
objective viewer can catch. (Just as we all can be blind to certain aspects
of ourselves.) But I agree that it is very fascinating to hear from fans who
identify with specific characters (or parts of characters). A Jenna-type is
someone I'd love to hear from. (Though I have to admit that I don't know if
there can be a Jenna type--different aspects of her that I saw on screen seem
to contradict each other.)
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:23:54 EST
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you
Message-ID: <f95ceb43.36ed260a@aol.com>
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Mistral wrote:
<< The only stupid question is the one that you never ask because you're
afraid of
looking stupid. IMnotsoHO!!!!
>>
Well, thank you. Actually, I have learned a lot by asking these questions.
All of the different personality types seem to complement each other. It is
great to look at things the way the other types see things, including the
"bouncy"ones! And, of course, there are other ways of dividing personalities
besides Myers Briggs. I find myself tending to mix these up with M-B method,
perhaps part of my confusion. Also, there is a tendency to prefer one's own
type, a sort of parochial attitude that clouds the issue and makes it hard to
judge the others fairly.
Hmmm, maybe that's why I have such a hard time appreciating Blake. The "E" is
foreign to me and the "J" makes him seem too calculating. (Did Avon find him
too calculating also, even though Avon was a real calculator (ha, ha, a pun!)
himself?)
Gail
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 10:46:02 EST
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <a775375a.36ed2b3a@aol.com>
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Mistral said:
<< The only people Avon would knowingly walk into his own grave for were
Anna and Blake. >>
I would like to add Cally to that list. What do you think?
Gail
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 11:03:20 EST
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <95852bcc.36ed2f48@aol.com>
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Carol said, in reply to Mistral:
< <Re Tarrant's speech in Sarcophagus...I agree that he was disappointed
in Avon at that point and saw him as a less of a leader then he would
have liked.>>
This is interesting. I had originally thought that Tarrant objected to Avon
mainly because he would have liked to have kept the Liberator for himself,
particularly since he had claimed it was his the first time we met him. Was
this claim just so much bluster? Did he really want to be led by someone
else, someone more like Blake, perhaps? Or did he just give up his claim as
impossible because he was outnumbered, but chafed at the fact that he had to
give it up to someone who led, but without a sense of purpose?
One more question -- what sort of follower would Tarrant have been if he had
joined the crew when Blake was still in charge? the loyal, unquestioning
follower? or still the youngster wishing he was in charge?
from the questioning Gail
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:15:32 -0000
From: "Jenni -Alison" <Jenni-Alison@dial.pipex.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you
Message-Id: <199903151619.RAA16859@samantha.lysator.liu.se>
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Gail wrote:
> I find myself tending to mix these up with M-B method,
> perhaps part of my confusion. Also, there is a tendency to prefer one's
own
> type, a sort of parochial attitude that clouds the issue and makes it
hard to
> judge the others fairly.
That's interesting. I'm ENFJ, but my favorite characters are Avon and
Tarrant. Possibly this is an I or P trait? Or just that people have mainly
spoken out where their Myers-Briggs types matched their favorite
characters?
Gleefull thought - perhaps I really do understand why Blake liked Avon more
than the people who really understand Avon personally!
This is always assuming that Blake is an ENFJ, and not an ENTJ, of course.
> Hmmm, maybe that's why I have such a hard time appreciating Blake. The
"E" is
> foreign to me and the "J" makes him seem too calculating.
I don't see Blake as calculating, just committed to getting results. He's
committed and focussed, and willing to take responsibility for his own
mistakes, but calculating makes him sound as if he plans peoples moves like
chess pieces, and I don't think he looks that far ahead, or in that much
detail.
(Did Avon find him
> too calculating also, even though Avon was a real calculator (ha, ha, a
pun!)
> himself?)
I think Avon found him too clever for his peace of mind. Blake was able to
make Avon do things his rational mind spoke against, and I believe it was
without concious or deliberate manipulation - that's why Avon still stayed
with him. If Blake was deliberately manipulating Avon then Avon would have
left the Liberator.
Jenni
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 16:23:30 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Vila song
Message-ID: <000c01be6f00$4bb21e00$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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There's always a pop song around that makes me think about B7.
Could 'the Bartender and the Thief' by the Stereophonics (?) be the best
Vila song around at the moment? I can't really make out the words apart from
'The bartender and the thief are lovers' which seems pleasantly appropriate.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:05:44 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <36ED3DE7.73509192@ptinet.net>
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Mac4781@aol.com wrote:
> In some of our statements, I thought we were both tangenting off to our
> personal views as opposed to raw canon
Yes, I agree, but I did think it was our personal views we were comparing.
> (and I'm sorry if I didn't always make
> it clear where one stopped and another began, or if anything I said was
> offensive).
Oh, no, not offensive; I just don't feel I'm particularly
twisting Avon; I understand you don't think you are either;
I just think he's nice enough without turning him into an
idealist, which is really odd, because you said the same
thing, and yet your view of him seems so *very* idealistic
to me. Far too much like Blake. I'm sorry for making it seem
I thought you were offensive; I didn't think so.
> Also, recent discussions have made it hit home (to me) that what
> I thought was "raw canon," what everyone believed, may not have been raw
> enough. Quite a revelation that!
Ooh, me! I wish you had elaborated here; this could have been
very interesting. (You have nothing more important to do
than discuss B7 with newbies, I *know*).
> But useful. One shouldn't get complacent.
Yep. Or, Nope.
> <tsk, tsk> You are assuming I relate to Tarrant when part of me is more in
> tune with Avon. And it's the introverted Avon side of me that makes me think
> Avon seriously wanted to be free of Blake. Blakes are great people, but not
> when one is sharing small living spaces with them. At least not for me; just
> the thought of living on Liberator with him makes me feel as if the walls are
> closing in. But maybe Avon is more flexible than I am in that regard.
No, no! I agree that he seriously wanted to be free of Blake.
I just interpret the overall dynamic a little differently. And it
weirds me out because some of your post reads as if you don't
want to acknowledge that people have any subconscious
motivations at all, and in other places you talk about subconscious
motivations :)
I do keep meaning to get back to the definitions post, but just
let me make a quick sketch for you of 'my' Avon. He's got trust
issues. At a guess (some day I'm gonna count), roughly 75-80%
of the eps have a direct dialogue or actional reference to trust
and/or betrayal; most but not all of those involve Avon, and those
that don't generally involve Blake. For me, this is what the whole
series is about.
Skipping lots of psychobabble explanation, it would be consistent
with what I perceive as his personality type to 1) have *very*
strong feelings which he barely acknowledges to himself, let alone
anyone else (hence the occasional bursts of temper) and 2) prefer to
have only a *very* few, *very* close friends (think taking all of the
emotion the average person puts into all their friends and pouring
it into only two or three people), HOWEVER, because of all the
loss and betrayal he has suffered by the time we meet him, he is
even more private and shut down than usual, and determined not
to care about or trust anybody.
All of the above makes him both not very popular and not very
well understood by the 'normals'. He values independence and
autonomy and is not interested in crusades or crusaders; this
makes people think that he doesn't care. In fact, he prefers people
think that he doesn't care; it avoids intimacy. He does, but shows
it only by respecting people's boundaries and autonomy and
doing the right thing without ever mentioning it. You'll notice
that he's far nicer to the people they meet planetside than to
his shipmates; this is a function of keeping the shipmates at
a distance emotionally. He doesn't really want to be rude
(beyond his natural arrogance, of course) but he *certainly*
doesn't want to be pals; he just wants to be left alone; but he's
stuck on this terrific ship with a gung-ho idealist and a bunch
of sheep. So he pushes people away with his nastiness.
He has two problems with Blake: 1) Blake's idealism, and
willingness to risk other people's lives for his cause, and
2) no matter how hard Avon pushes him away, Blake's not
going anywhere. Actually, they make a good team, with
Blake coming up with a plan, and Avon always seeing the
dangerous bits. Gradually, Avon starts to respect and
trust Blake the man; and Avon *needs* a friend. Actually,
Vila is his friend, too, but Avon wants and needs Blake's
respect, because Blake demands more from him. Blake sees
something in Avon that no-one's seen in a very long time...
the basically moral person behind the nasty facade.
(Carol, as for your dislike of the idea of Avon 'needing' Blake--
everyone 'needs' the approval of others-- it's the type and
degree of the need that makes it functional or dysfunctional.
A person who has *no* need for approval, and *no* desire to
please others would be a sociopath. I am acquainted with a
diagnosed sociopath; neither Avon nor Tarrant has that much
indifference to the feelings or approval of others.)
But as much as Avon comes to have a personal attachment to
Blake, he *never* wants to be a either revolutionary or a follower;
he does trust Blake as a friend, but he is tired of all the running
and fighting, tired of being pushed into being 'one of the good guys'
which is why he pushes Blake to go on to Star One and get it
over with.
Third-season metamorphosis aside, which touches on Tarrant, after
Anna's death, and with Blake apparently hurt and in trouble; he *has*
to go after Blake; but it's a trap. So now he's lost his memory of Anna, he's
lost Blake, he's lost Liberator, he's lost Cally -- pretty much the only
thing left is Vila -- the others are still too new to be emotionally
necessary to him -- but he's not gonna take it anymore; at this point
he gets serious about the rebellion, because he no longer has a choice--
"Winning is the only safety."
Everything goes wrong (why doesn't matter here); and the last couple
of blows are the worst: he damages his relationship with Vila at
Malodaar, and the betrayal by Zucan costs him the alliance and Xenon
base. He finds Blake and goes after him; he trusts Blake; together they
can accomplish what neither can do alone (he reasons).
The irony here is that Avon has started to trust, and Blake has started
not to; but neither has completely transformed into the other. If they
had stayed themselves, or transformed completely, they would have
been okay; but Avon still has his fear of betrayal, even though he
basically trusts Blake; and Blake still trusts Avon, even though he's
started to question everybody else. If Avon were past his fear, or never
trusted Blake enough to feel betrayed, or if Blake had been wary enough
of Avon not to spook him with a gun in his hand, or if Blake had trusted
Tarrant, things would have turned out very differently. IMHO.
So, I'm looking at a Shakespearean-style tragedy themed on trust
and betrayal, only with two tragic heroes (Blake-Avon) instead of
one. If Avon doesn't have trust issues, or if he doesn't
'need'/trust Blake, Gauda Prime makes no sense to me. I don't
buy Avon as a complete madman. I see him as being driven to
the wall by what he perceives to be the ultimate betrayal.
******************
Okay, that's my view of Avon (condensed version, believe it or not).
Is that anything like close enough to your Avon that your view of
Tarrant can illuminate my Tarrant?
<grin> That ought to keep you busy for a while!
Cheers,
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:26:38 EST
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <71d17b13.36ed42ce@aol.com>
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In a message dated 03/15/1999 10:53:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
VulcanXYZ@aol.com writes:
<< < The only people Avon would knowingly walk into his own grave for were
Anna and Blake. >>
I would like to add Cally to that list. What do you think?
>>
I might have to disagree. While I firmly believe Avon had some...interest in
Cally, I don't think he'd reached the stage where he felt he was willing to
die for her. Given some more time, he might have, but Terminal robbed him of
that time.
I do think he might have died for Dayna, if for no other reason than he
owed her and her father a debt that could not be repaid otherwise. D.
Rose
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 19:27:36 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: B7 Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <36EC7E28.3898ED42@geocities.com>
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mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
>re: Neil's
> > More seriously, I have very deep reservations about 'obvious comedic fakes'.
> > To me they reek of contempt for the reality from which they are drawn
>
> Quite possibly. I have a great contempt for many things, reality being very near
> the top of the list.
well said!
Hey, why *is* reality so dull?
Agreed, Hogan & Co. were my Heroes at age 10 when that show first aired.
To the list of no-no's let's add The Dirty Dozen; also a lighthearted
romp thru the war. Who feels fratfall brat Michael York in The Four
Muskateers was desecrating the true spirit of the 17th century? The fact
is: human killing and cruelty is a staple of every age. If we were to
treat it seriously, our fiction would be drastically limited. No Xena or
Hercules. No Robin Hood: "Men In Tights"
The Political Correctness of the '90s is now trying to go back in time
and rewrite history - in the US anyway. But human nature doesn't change.
When it comes to violence, we can ignore it, ridicule it, or get
seriously bummed about it. But where's the fun in that?
Pat P
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:55:25 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ooh, I've binged...
Message-ID: <ISeVsAAtxE72EwYA@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <19990314223908.25531.qmail@hotmail.com>, Joanne MacQueen
<j_macqueen@hotmail.com> writes
>3) Tarrant should not wear green. It worked for Blake, but Tarrant isn't
>Blake. Well, that's my opinion, for what it's worth. Those tight, red
>leather trousers of a certain person in the same episode did nothing for
>my peace of mind either. Very distracting legs. Shame on me - I'm not
>normally given to looking at that end of the anatomy. I shall blame
>Julia, due to the interest she has shown in said pair of trousers in the
>past <grin>
Not just the fact that it looks as if there's a pair of socks stuffed
down there, but also the rather nice legs so wonderfully outlined...and
I'll stop there because I don't enjoy having cold showers at this time
of night.
Unfortunately, I lost the frame grab copies I used as the screensaver at
work when my 'puter died on me just before Christmas, and I haven't
found the backup disk yet <pout>. I'm one of the few people who can get
away with having pornographic screensavers at work, simply because in
this case the smut is in the eye of the beholder. "What do you mean,
it's pornographic? It's a frame grab from a kiddies show."
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #100
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