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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 99 : Issue 209

Today's Topics:
	 [B7L] Voting
	 Re: [B7L] Servalan
	 Re: Soolin [was Re: [B7L] Servalan]
	 [B7L] Checkers
	 Re: [B7L] Introduction
	 Re: [B7L] Servalan
	 [B7L] Re: gen v adult
	 [B7L] Four drabbles (was re: Fandoms crossed over with B7)
	 Re: [B7L] Servalan
	 Re: [B7L] Zines
	 Re: [B7L] Servalan
	 Re: [B7L] Servalan
	 Re:  [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
	 Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
	 [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
	 Re: [B7L] Cally (was Servalan)
	 Re: [B7L] Jenna (was Servalan)
	 [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)
	 Re: [B7L] Servalan
	 [B7L] Introduction
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)
	 Re: [B7L] Servalan
	 Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
	 Fwd: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
	 Fwd: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
	 Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
	 Re: [B7L] Jenna (was Servalan)
	 Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist 
	 Fwd: Re: [B7L] Jenna (was Servalan)
	 Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 22:16:35 +0100
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>, Space City <space-city@world.std.com>
Subject: [B7L] Voting
Message-ID: <37827231.244C3E05@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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Found this web site, and there is a vote going on. Pay a visit and give
B7 your support, it only has one vote so far and that's from me!

The poll is at:
http://www.freevote.com/booth/houseofx
--
cheers
Steve Rogerson
http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson

"What is it with you and holes?"
Xena to Gabrielle, Paradise Found

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 08:33:38 EST
From: Joanne MacQueen <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan
Message-ID: <19990706223338.74772.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>Or perhaps I'm just prejudiced against people who are stupid
>or vain enough to wear spiked heels and formal gowns to go
>hiking?
>Grins,
>Mistral

May I ask if you have a problem with most televised sci fi, let alone the 
British variety? <grin>

Regards
Joanne
(thinking of lots of Doctor Who episodes)


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 08:34:38 +1000
From: Katling <katling@primus.com.au>
To: "blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Soolin [was Re: [B7L] Servalan]
Message-ID: <3782847D.3950C69D@primus.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
> 

> As characters go, she's practically perfect. I'd just wish
> for one or two more background details to hang some
> personal backstory on. That may be why there's not
> much of her in fanfiction, you pretty much have to make
> her up out of thin air.

About all there is was mentioned in two stories. Rescue [by Dorian] and Blake.
You're right, there isn't much. 

> 
> I love the way she interacts with each member of the
> Scorpio crew; Soolin and Dayna teasing Vila in 'Orbit'
> is priceless. She also handles Avon better than anyone
> else except Blake does. (I quite like the idea of A/Soo.)
> My only complaint is that to have Soolin and Liberator
> in the same story, you have to go AU.
> 

Well... You could have a PGP with a DSV3?

> Oh, well, can't have everything, can you?

<grin> If we had everything, life would be boring and therefore we wouldn't have
fun. Much less interesting discussions.


Katrina

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:51:00 EDT
From: SugarHIB7@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Checkers
Message-ID: <517d7ea5.24b3f064@aol.com>
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In a message dated 7/5/99 10:17:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time, SugarHI B7 
writes:

< 7/5/99 9:27:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Tramila writes:
  
<< Checkers $5.00 (gen, implied slash)
<<And a fine story by our Pat Patera.  
  
Agreed!  This is one of my favorite stories.  The dialogue between Avon and 
Blake is so true to character.  Especially the conversation on the lake.  It 
could have been A/B or A-B, depending on how you look at it.
  
< So Pat.....when are you going to write Chess? 
   
Is this a joke or for real?  Is there to be a sequel to Checkers.  Would this 
BE a sequel to Checkers.  Or have I fallen for a joke? 
   
 Sugar
 
 

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Return-path: SugarHIB7@aol.com
From: SugarHIB7@aol.com
Full-name: SugarHI B7
Message-ID: <517d7ea5.24b242b5@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:17:41 EDT
Subject: (send) SC Checkers
To: SugarHIB7@aol.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13

7/5/99 9:27:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Tramila writes:
 
<< Checkers $5.00 (gen, implied slash)
<<And a fine story by our Pat Patera.  
 
Agreed!  This is one of my favorite stories.  The dialogue between Avon and 
Blake is so true to character.  Especially the conversation on the lake.  It 
could have been A/B or A-B, depending on how you look at it.
 
<< So Pat.....when are you going to write Chess? >>
  
Is this a joke or for real?  Is there to be a sequel to Checkers.  Would this 
BE a sequel to Checkers.  Or have I fallen for a joke? 
  
Sugar


--part1_517d7ea5.24b3f064_boundary--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 18:40:08 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Introduction
Message-ID: <19990517.184439.8390.2.Rilliara@juno.com>

On Mon, 5 Jul 1999 06:33:23 EDT SugarHIB7@aol.com writes:
>I just realized that perhaps I should introduce myself since I''ve 
>just 
>joined the Blake's 7 mail lists.  :)
>
>Hello!!
>
>My name is Louise Kincade, but my friends call me Sugar.
>
>I've been a Blake's 7 fan for over 10 years; ever since I first saw it 
>on a 
>PBS station in San Jose.  I think that was about 1987.  The beautiful, 
>
>absolutley fabulous Avon is my favorite. (For me) it is Avon who is 
>the heart 
>and soul of Blake's 7. 

I agree completely except . . . .

Heart?

Soul?

Avon?

Hmm, it really would be just like me to take this long to notice everyone
on the list has been discussing a different show than the one I was
talking about (just kidding, I really do think Avon has heart and soul
[in a nonmusical sense], but he'd just rather die than admit it).

Ellynne

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 18:55:47 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan
Message-ID: <19990517.185554.8390.3.Rilliara@juno.com>

On Wed, 07 Jul 1999 08:33:38 EST Joanne MacQueen <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
writes:
>>Or perhaps I'm just prejudiced against people who are stupid
>>or vain enough to wear spiked heels and formal gowns to go
>>hiking?
>>Grins,
>>Mistral
>
>May I ask if you have a problem with most televised sci fi, let alone 
>the 
>British variety? <grin>
>
>(thinking of lots of Doctor Who episodes)
>
Aww, but that was the Doctor's companions, just one of those little
personality quirks that made their need to ask the Doctor to explain
_everything_ so credible (not that I'm saying the Doctor had some kind of
hang up about hanging out with people who boosted his ego this way.  His
ego did quite well enough on it's own, which is why he had no trouble
putting up with those not so bright intellects who would have driven
other people nuts).

Well, all right, that's not fair.  But some otherwise intelligent
companions did wear ridiculous shoes, ask silly questions, and jump into
life threatening situations at the drop of a hat.  It makes you wonder
about them.

Ellynne

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 21:22:51 -0700
From: Tramila <cdmunoz@earthlink.net>
To: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: gen v adult
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990706212251.008715e0@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Ellynne G. is having a difficult time posting to the list and requested
that I forward this post.

Enjoy.  :)
Hugs,
Tramila
=============
>Ellynne G. wrote:
>> There's also a character I'm calling Mr. Zerafin (unless Zerafin 
>>actually means something, which it shouldn't since I made it up, but I've 
>>always Zerafin/Xerafin/Zeraphin/Xeraphin... this is really ringing a bell!
>>I don't know what bell it is ringing, but it sounds really familiar.
>>
>>I remember!  Seraphim!  Plural form of Seraph.  The highest order of angels.

Tramila writes:
>>OR. you could have been thinking about the nasty female vampire in 
>>"Bloody Bones" (The Anita Blake Vampire Hunter Series) by Laurell K.
Hamilton. 
>> :)

Ellynne G. wrote:
>Augh!  I knew it rang a bell.  I haven't read those, but I've seen the
>Anita Blake series at the old library.  Is my spelling different or
>should I make changes?
>
>BTW, I either have a computer problem or the wrond address for the list. 
>Would you mind posting this for me?
>
>Many thanks,
>
>Ellynne

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 22:17:19 PDT
From: Sally Manton <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Four drabbles (was re: Fandoms crossed over with B7)
Message-ID: <19990707051724.43106.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Just the day when I needed a laugh...thanks for these.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:28:18 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0706182818-566Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On Tue 06 Jul, Tanja Kinkel wrote:
> AdamWho@aol.com schrieb:

> > As a side note, I also love Servalan's outfit in Children of Auron, the best 
> > outfit I've seen her wear so far. She should have worn black more often. 
> 
> Don't worry, she does, for the rest of the series. I don't know whether it's 
> true or not, but SFX claimed that Jacqueline Pearce made the deliberate decision 
> of changing Servalan's outfits post "Children of Auron" to black, as a sign of 
> mourning for the embryos she killed.

And because Jackie realised she looked best in black.

Judith

-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 -  Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc.  (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:24:51 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Zines
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0706182451-199Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On Tue 06 Jul, Pat Patera wrote:
> Tigerm1019@aol.com wrote:

> > One thing I like about paper zines is that anything that gets printed has to
> > have gone through some kind of editing process.  
> You'd be surprised how many editors touch not a word, but print whatever
> they receive.

Aye, but there are evil sods like myself who try to redress the balance.  I
think my record to date is asking for three rewrites on one story.  (And it
turned out a very good story too)

I was lucky in that one of my early stories was submitted to a good editor.  I
learnt a fair bit from her.  I also learned a fair bit from Neil's writer's
circle.

Judith
-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 -  Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc.  (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 01:53:02 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan
Message-ID: <9a19cfda.24b4453e@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 99-07-06 12:18:23 EDT, mistral@ptinet.net writes:

<< <sigh> As far as I am concerned, they completely ruined Cally;
 they took a passionate freedom fighter and turned her into a
 whining wimp.  >>

Our interpretations of Cally are very different. I honestly think Cally was 
more talk than action in her first episodes. She let Blake get the best of 
her very easily in Time Squad when he took away her gun, not something an 
intelligent freedom fighter would do. I think Cally was a naive Auron who 
joined with the freedom fights on Saurian Major, when her comrades died and 
she had no hope of being rescued ever going back to Auron, she decided to die 
fighting. Not really a sign of strength, more of desperation, a suicide 
mission for dead friends. 

I like the Cally of season 3, especially early to mid season 3. She's capable 
and strong without being overbearing, when she has to fight or kill, she has 
no qualms doing that. Dawn of the Gods, City at the Edge of the World, etc. 
City at the Edge of World is one of my favorite Cally episodes for those 
reasons. And I think her relationship with Avon in 3 is fascinating.  I'm not 
fond of the teleport queen\alien possession episodes (Moloch, Ultraworld), 
but her status fell even lower than that in season 2. 

My thoughts toward Cally probably are different from most fans. Most fans 
seem to love her in season 1, hate her in 3, but I couldn't stand her in most 
of 1, and really learned to like her by 3. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 01:59:55 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan
Message-ID: <861a634e.24b446db@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 99-07-07 01:53:36 EDT, Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk writes:

<< And because Jackie realised she looked best in black. >>

Very smart realization. Looking at Servalan in that black is one of the only 
moments I liked in Moloch. Oh, and the Vila\Doran scenes. 

Ben Steed only wrote two episodes, didn't he? I don't think I could stomach a 
third edition of his one-note cliches and complete lack of interest in 
writing good stuff for Servalan or Cally. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:43:19 +0200
From: Angria@t-online.de (Tanja Kinkel)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re:  [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Message-Id: <m111lQN-0003s0C@fwd06.btx.dtag.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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AdamWho@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 99-07-07 01:53:36 EDT, Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk writes:
>
> << And because Jackie realised she looked best in black. >>
>
> Very smart realization. Looking at Servalan in that black is one of the only 
> moments I liked in Moloch. Oh, and the Vila\Doran scenes. 
>
> Ben Steed only wrote two episodes, didn't he? I don't think I could stomach a 
> third edition of his one-note cliches and complete lack of interest in 
> writing good stuff for Servalan or Cally. 

No, alas, the awful Ben Steed was allowed to pen a third episode - "Power", in 
season 4, the worst of his three contributions. If you think Servalan and Cally 
were written badly by him in "Harvest of Kairos" and "Moloch" (and they 
were!!!), just wait what he does for an entire culture AND our regulars in 
"Power". Or better, avoid the episode alltogether. Thankfully, it has no further 
impact on the rest of the series. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 01:17:41 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Message-ID: <37830D25.FD0767B5@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Tanja Kinkel wrote:

> AdamWho@aol.com wrote:

<snip>

> > Ben Steed only wrote two episodes, didn't he? I don't think I could stomach a
> > third edition of his one-note cliches and complete lack of interest in
> > writing good stuff for Servalan or Cally.
>
> No, alas, the awful Ben Steed was allowed to pen a third episode - "Power", in
> season 4, the worst of his three contributions. If you think Servalan and Cally
> were written badly by him in "Harvest of Kairos" and "Moloch" (and they
> were!!!), just wait what he does for an entire culture AND our regulars in
> "Power". Or better, avoid the episode alltogether. Thankfully, it has no further
> impact on the rest of the series.

OTOH, he writes perfect Avon. (Playing with the sopron; guilt
over letting Tarrant take Vila to Sardos; waxing professorial
with Dayna over Moloch; and being a male chauvinist, which,
yes, Avon is, and it shows up at least as early as Mission to
Destiny -- Steed didn't invent it.)

<veg>
Mistral
--
"We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell;
we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question--
one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade'

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 11:32:23 +0200
From: Angria@t-online.de (Tanja Kinkel)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Message-Id: <m111o3z-0003WwC@fwd10.btx.dtag.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT

I wrote: 
> > No, alas, the awful Ben Steed was allowed to pen a third episode - "Power",
>  in
> > season 4, the worst of his three contributions. If you think Servalan and
>  Cally
> > were written badly by him in "Harvest of Kairos" and "Moloch" (and they
> > were!!!), just wait what he does for an entire culture AND our regulars in
> > "Power". Or better, avoid the episode alltogether. Thankfully, it has no
>  further
> > impact on the rest of the series.

Then Mistral wrote: 
> OTOH, he writes perfect Avon. (Playing with the sopron; guilt
> over letting Tarrant take Vila to Sardos; waxing professorial
> with Dayna over Moloch; and being a male chauvinist, which,
> yes, Avon is, and it shows up at least as early as Mission to
> Destiny -- Steed didn't invent it.)

Imo, his admission of enjoying slapping Sara in Mission to Destiny wasn't 
connected to her being a woman; he'd have enjoyed slapping Sonnheim as well. I 
can't recall him patronising Jenna, Cally or Soolin (Dayna, yes, but then Dayna 
is a kid). And of course he never tries the "You're a woman, so you're bound to 
lose anyway" line with Servalan. So, where are those early signs of male 
chauvinism? 
Honestly, the way Steed writes Avon in "Power" makes him more dislikable than in 
any other episode of the entire series. 

Tanja

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 03:08:38 PDT
From: Sally Manton <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Cally (was Servalan)
Message-ID: <19990707100842.5510.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Mistral wrote:
<As far as I am concerned, they completely ruined Cally;
they took a passionate freedom fighter and turned her into a
whining wimp. The only places she gets my sympathy
anymore are Time Squad, Bounty, and the first halves of Duel and Shadow.>

Oh, she's not too bad in Voice (an episode I can see the
faults of, but like because Cally is pretty good and the
Avon/Blake bits are wonderful <g>). Problem is, *Jenna* wimps out in that 
one.

Part of the problem, I think, was that Cally (and Gan) were
the *nice* ones in the crew. (Blake is good, but quite
definitely not always nice. Part of the reason I love him.)
Nice is necessary, but not-so-nice (shading to downright
nasty) get most of the good lines and the writers' (and
fans') attention. Even with the early characterisation of Cally,
I *can* see why the writers found Avon and Vila more fun to write for.

But it is true that when the good lines and action got spread
around a bit more (as in Shadow) the result could be truly splendid.


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 03:10:37 PDT
From: Sally Manton <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna (was Servalan)
Message-ID: <19990707101042.21680.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Mistral wrote:
<It irks me no end that in Killer, they gave Blake more
understanding of the history of spaceflight, exploration, and
navigation than they did Jenna; it falls under her area of expertise, after 
all.>

Doesn't necessarily mean she was interested in the *history*
of it, however, any more than someone who is a pilot and
passionate flying enthusiast today has to be interested in the
history of  planes. Some are, some aren't. I can't see Jenna
as in the least bit interested in the 'dead past', and there's
plenty of evidence that Blake was very interested in history
(mind you, *he* had to go to Orac for information here, but
I can see him taking more of an interest). The ship in
Mission to Destiny, which went out of production 50 years
ago but is still in use, he asks her about and she knows the answer.

Actually, I'd *like* to believe she had an interest in it, as it
would help flesh her out a little (it's very hard to think of
any hobbies or interests for Jenna), but I can't quite do it.
IMO she's too pragmatically 'here-and-now' for that.

<Another example is Blake's agreement to hand Liberator
over to Avon when he was through with it. Avon's
assumption that this should be done is consistent
characterization, but Jenna had IMHO *more* claim to
Liberator than Avon, and I think Blake should have taken that into 
consideration.>

I've heard this before, and I'm curious to know why? Sure,
there was the scene in Cygnus Alpha where she linked
(very very briefly) with Zen, but there's no proof outside
fan fiction that that was any more than coincidence - she put
her hand on the right panel - or that there was any lasting
bond. If Jenna *had* formed some sort of a link, I can see
Avon burrowing into the computer and getting rid of it.

I have a feeling that Zen might not have been so welcoming
had it got a look inside Avon's mind first. But Blake would
most likely have been just as acceptable to Zen. That two
minutes does not a claim of ownership make. Jenna was the
pilot, true. But this is a computer-driven spaceship. The
computer expert (who would have spent the next two years
happily restructuring and reprogramming and redirecting anything he could) 
was Avon.

And - to put it bluntly - they *all* ceded the ship to Blake
in Time Squad, when they let him get away with that
"anyone who wants to leave" bluff. Jenna gave away her
share of control as thoroughly as Avon and the rest.

I think their claims would have been equal, coming down in
the end to what Blake decided. And it's a tough call, but
IMO (with precious little evidence, I might add) I think
Avon *mattered* more to Blake at this stage than Jenna did.
But remember, Blake only agreed to hand over the Liberator
to Avon "assuming the others go along with it." Jenna then
said "nothing else is settled." She would have had her
chance to challenge him. I think she'd have lost, because on
my reading the rest of the crew (both present and the new
ones about to appear) would have been more inclined to side with Avon.


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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 03:12:29 PDT
From: Sally Manton <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)
Message-ID: <19990707101230.93070.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Katling wrote:
<Oooh. Another Soolin fan?>

Add me in for three. I actually like Jenna a *little* better
(but I think Glynis Barber did a better acting job) but I like Soolin. A 
lot.

Mistral wrote:
<She also handles Avon better than anyone else except
Blake does. (I quite like the idea of A/Soo.)>

Yes, and I'd have liked to see how Blake and Soolin got on
together. She's very *like* Avon in a number of ways, and
we all know how wonderful *their* on-screen chemistry
was...there'd be a similar fire/ice clash, with the added
bonus - as Mistral says - of both being good at handling
Avon. They could compare notes and gang up on him.


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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 03:18:05 PDT
From: Sally Manton <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan
Message-ID: <19990707101809.98414.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Joanne MacQueen wrote:
<Or perhaps I'm just prejudiced against people who are
stupid or vain enough to wear spiked heels and formal
gowns to go hiking?>

Well, we don't see much more sensible footwear on Our
Heroines, do we? (Sally's Fourth Rule of Blakes 7 - You
Cannot Fight for Freedom in Sensible Flat Shoes. *That's*
where Kasabi probably made her big mistake...)



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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 03:20:10 PDT
From: Sally Manton <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Introduction
Message-ID: <19990707102013.1854.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Sugar wrote:
<The beautiful, absolutley fabulous Avon is my favorite.
(For me) it is Avon who is the heart and soul of Blake's 7.>

Oh good - we have so *few* Avon fans on the lists <g>

More seriously, welcome to the (rather large) club. Hope
you enjoy the rambling...


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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 03:45:15 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)
Message-ID: <37832FBA.C96814CB@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sally Manton wrote:

> Yes, and I'd have liked to see how Blake and Soolin got on
> together. She's very *like* Avon in a number of ways, and
> we all know how wonderful *their* on-screen chemistry
> was...there'd be a similar fire/ice clash, with the added
> bonus - as Mistral says - of both being good at handling
> Avon. They could compare notes and gang up on him.

Or, contrariwise, Avon and Soolin could divide Blake up
and conquer him :) :) :)

Mad Mistral :) :) :)
--
"We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell;
we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question--
one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade'

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 07:52:05 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0707065205-b49Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On Wed 07 Jul, AdamWho@aol.com wrote:

> Ben Steed only wrote two episodes, didn't he? I don't think I could stomach a 
> third edition of his one-note cliches and complete lack of interest in 
> writing good stuff for Servalan or Cally. 

You haven't seen 'Power' yet.  If you thought Ben Steed was bad before...  Come
back Barry Letts, all is forgiven!

Judith

-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 -  Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc.  (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 03:42:59 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Message-ID: <37832F32.D216606A@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Tanja Kinkel wrote:

> Then Mistral wrote:
> > OTOH, he writes perfect Avon. (Playing with the sopron; guilt
> > over letting Tarrant take Vila to Sardos; waxing professorial
> > with Dayna over Moloch; and being a male chauvinist, which,
> > yes, Avon is, and it shows up at least as early as Mission to
> > Destiny -- Steed didn't invent it.)
>
> Imo, his admission of enjoying slapping Sara in Mission to Destiny wasn't
> connected to her being a woman; he'd have enjoyed slapping Sonnheim as well.

I wasn't referring to his slapping Sara; I was referring to
his *enormous* blind spot with regard to women, which I've
elaborated on in the past, and which is an obvious offshoot
of male chauvinist attitudes; he tends to dichotomize women
into 'decorative/useless' and 'intelligent/dangerous', and always
assumes the first until proven the latter. Occasionally he runs
into one that doesn't fit either mould (usually a crewmember),
and you can practically see him sizing them up and slotting
them into the exception category, at which point, they very
nearly become genderless to him.

The first place this is really noticeable for me is Mission to
Destiny; he never seriously considers that Sara, a woman,
might be the murderer. If he'd seriously thought 'Sara?' and
looked at the 54124, there'd have been no further plot. And
he continues to display this blind spot, up until at least Assassin,
wherein he goes about a long description of Cancer: 'he' this,
'he' that, every sentence or phrase starting with 'he', and Avon
never stops to think that Cancer might be a woman, and indeed
that might be why she's gone undetected so long.

You can't blame bad writing for this blind spot because the
other male characters don't share it; and of course none of the
females do.

> I
> can't recall him patronising Jenna, Cally or Soolin (Dayna, yes, but then Dayna
> is a kid).

Actually, I don't recall him patronising Dayna much; I'd
say he comes closer to it with Cally.

> And of course he never tries the "You're a woman, so you're bound to
> lose anyway" line with Servalan.

His sexually charged rivalry with Servalan is an *obvious*
example of the predatory male urge to subdue any woman
who challenges him. It's *exactly* the same thing that goes
on with Pella. IMAO, the reason fans are angry about Pella
and not about Servalan, is that he defeats Pella; and those
female fans who identify with Servalan get a sexual charge
out of the rivalry without having to admit what causes it.
Without Avon' chauvinism, that relationship would fall flat.

> So, where are those early signs of male
> chauvinism?

All over the place, if you care to look.

> Honestly, the way Steed writes Avon in "Power" makes him more dislikable than in
> any other episode of the entire series.

Avon is completely consistent in Power. Lots of fans have
remarked on Avon's basically gentlemanly attitudes towards
women who aren't causing him trouble. That's just the flip
side of chauvinism; its party face, if you will.

As for Harvest and Moloch, Servalan was amused by
Jarvik, not bested by him, and in Moloch, it was only the
*villains* who were abusing women. I frankly don't see
how a rational person can seriously level claims of
misogyny against Steed based on those.

Furthermore, it's
ludicrous to believe that a thousand years from now, in an
obviously fragmented and stratified society, there won't be
wide variety in attitudes toward gender relations. Steed's
scripts merely reflect a different set of probable attitudes.
The fact that I dislike something doesn't make it cease to
exist, now or in the future.

<grin>

Okay, I know those are dangerous things to say. But I
just wanted to see the other side on the list for a change.
Sticking up for the underdog scriptwriter, as it were.

TTFN,
Mistral
--
"We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell;
we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question--
one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade'

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 03:56:12 PDT
From: Sally Manton <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Message-ID: <19990707105612.52809.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Tanja wrote:

<Honestly, the way Steed writes Avon in "Power" makes him more dislikable 
than in any other episode of the entire series.>

I don't care for it. Although I have precious little sympathy for Pella (who 
didn't mind bashing him around as far as she was able)there's only a couple 
of minutes in the whole episode where I'm not thinking "who is this and what 
has he done with my Kerr?"

And much of those minutes he's nicely unconscious anyway...


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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 04:13:05 PDT
From: Sally Manton <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Message-ID: <19990707111306.42634.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Mistral wrote:

<The first place this is really noticeable for me is Mission to Destiny; he 
never seriously considers that Sara, a woman, might be the murderer. If he'd 
seriously thought 'Sara?' and looked at the 54124, there'd have been no 
further plot.>

Errr...neither does anyone else see it. Are you claiming the whole crew, 
including Levett, *and* Cally are also chauvinists?

Me, I always thought that he (and they) didn't think of Sara because it took 
rather a large suspension of disbelief to imagine someone that small lugging 
those considerably bigger bodies around...

<And he continues to display this blind spot, up until at least Assassin, 
wherein he goes about a long description of Cancer: 'he' this, 'he' that, 
every sentence or phrase starting with 'he', and Avon never stops to think 
that Cancer might be a woman, and indeed that might be why she's gone 
undetected so long.>

And no one else thinks of it for most of the episode either. Both Tarrant 
and Soolin assumed just as readily that Cancer was a man. So maybe 
*everyone* in the B7 universe is a chauvinist...and Cancer isn't detected 
IMO because her imitation of an appallingly obnoxious idiot is so painful it 
put Avon (and everyone else except Tarrant) off even *thinking* about her as 
a human being.

<You can't blame bad writing for this blind spot because the other male 
characters don't share it; and of course none of the females do.>

They do too, as above.



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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 04:30:55 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Message-ID: <37833A6E.C7FF3377@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sally Manton wrote:

> Mistral wrote:
>
> <The first place this is really noticeable for me is Mission to Destiny; he
> never seriously considers that Sara, a woman, might be the murderer. If he'd
> seriously thought 'Sara?' and looked at the 54124, there'd have been no
> further plot.>
>
> Errr...neither does anyone else see it. Are you claiming the whole crew,
> including Levett, *and* Cally are also chauvinists?

No, but Cally reads the number to Levett, doesn't show
her the writing; and when Cally first sees it, IIRC, they
don't know the crew's names; at any rate, Cally's staying
to help out and play 'hostage', whereas Avon is the one
actively interested in solving the murder.

> <And he continues to display this blind spot, up until at least Assassin,
> wherein he goes about a long description of Cancer: 'he' this, 'he' that,
> every sentence or phrase starting with 'he', and Avon never stops to think
> that Cancer might be a woman, and indeed that might be why she's gone
> undetected so long.>
>
> And no one else thinks of it for most of the episode either. Both Tarrant
> and Soolin assumed just as readily that Cancer was a man. So maybe
> *everyone* in the B7 universe is a chauvinist...and Cancer isn't detected
> IMO because her imitation of an appallingly obnoxious idiot is so painful it
> put Avon (and everyone else except Tarrant) off even *thinking* about her as
> a human being.

No, Tarrant and Soolin were led into that assumption
by Avon's 'he' litany, because they trusted him and
followed his lead. And Soolin eventually had the wit
to discard it as flawed.

Besides, Piri's imitation of an appallingly obnoxious idiot
should have been an obvious clue.

> <You can't blame bad writing for this blind spot because the other male
> characters don't share it; and of course none of the females do.>
>
> They do too, as above.

No, their blind spot is in trusting Avon without examining his
logic and presuppositions. In not recognizing *his* blind spot.

Grins,
Mistral
--
"We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell;
we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question--
one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade'

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 04:51:15 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna (was Servalan)
Message-ID: <37833F33.A640F64F@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sally Manton wrote:

> Mistral wrote:
> <It irks me no end that in Killer, they gave Blake more
> understanding of the history of spaceflight, exploration, and
> navigation than they did Jenna; it falls under her area of expertise, after
> all.>
>
> Doesn't necessarily mean she was interested in the *history*
> of it, however, any more than someone who is a pilot and
> passionate flying enthusiast today has to be interested in the
> history of  planes. Some are, some aren't. I can't see Jenna
> as in the least bit interested in the 'dead past',

Sure, you're right there, but a *current* known navigation hazard, as
The Darkling Zone, or 61 Cygni, was, would be something she'd
have some knowledge of, probably including how and why it came
to be known as a navigation hazard. It irritates me as well that when
she calls it The Darkling Zone, he says "no", and goes on to tell the
story, instead of saying "yes", its real name is 61 Cygni. There's no
reason except for patronising her to contradict her when she's in
fact correct.

> I've heard this before, and I'm curious to know why? Sure,
> there was the scene in Cygnus Alpha where she linked
> (very very briefly) with Zen, but there's no proof outside
> fan fiction that that was any more than coincidence - she put
> her hand on the right panel - or that there was any lasting
> bond. If Jenna *had* formed some sort of a link, I can see
> Avon burrowing into the computer and getting rid of it.
>
> I have a feeling that Zen might not have been so welcoming
> had it got a look inside Avon's mind first. But Blake would
> most likely have been just as acceptable to Zen. That two
> minutes does not a claim of ownership make. Jenna was the
> pilot, true. But this is a computer-driven spaceship. The
> computer expert (who would have spent the next two years
> happily restructuring and reprogramming and redirecting anything he could)
> was Avon.

I think you've answered your own question, as far as I am
concerned. Yes, the link with Zen was accidental (and Avon
actually chose that particular control) and brief; but Zen
accepted her, and the name Liberator, and I do think Zen
would have been more reluctant to accept Avon, although
that's not necessarily true.

I see Blake as having the most claim, because of destroying
the intruder defense system; and Jenna and Avon's claim
close to equal, with Jenna having some slight edge both
because of her link to Zen (and the risk of same) and also
because she was more proactive about participating in
Blake's plans; Avon was largely dragged along reluctantly.
He quite possibly could have eradicated any residual link;
but that would, IMHO, have been underhanded, and not
really eradicated the rightfulness of her claim.

Just, of course, an opinion.
Mistral
--
"We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell;
we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question--
one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade'

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:22:48 +0100
From: "Julie Horner" <julie.horner@lincolnsoftware.com>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist 
Message-ID: <002f01bec873$6dbd2860$170201c0@pc23.Fishnet>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Mistral wrote:

>I wasn't referring to his slapping Sara; I was referring to 
>his *enormous* blind spot with regard to women, which I've 
>elaborated on in the past, and which is an obvious offshoot 
>of male chauvinist attitudes; he tends to dichotomize women 
>into 'decorative/useless' and 'intelligent/dangerous', and always 
>assumes the first until proven the latter. Occasionally he runs 
>into one that doesn't fit either mould (usually a crewmember), 
>and you can practically see him sizing them up and slotting 
>them into the exception category, at which point, they very 
>nearly become genderless to him. 

But I don't see how he would fit Anna Grant into the categories
you suggest:

  -  If he thinks her intelligent then you are suggesting
     he would also suspect her of being dangerous - can't see Avon
     sticking around long in that case. 

  -  If he slots her in to the exception category then she becomes 
     genderless to him - didn't look like that to me. 

  - That only leaves decorative and useless and I can't
    see Avon risking so much for someone he categorizes as useless.

Julie Horner

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 05:41:26 PDT
From: Sally Manton <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Jenna (was Servalan)
Message-ID: <19990707124131.24147.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Mistral wrote:

<Zen accepted her, and the name Liberator, and I do think Zen
would have been more reluctant to accept Avon, although
that's not necessarily true.>

And since not one of them ever mentioned or - as far as we
know - even thought about the incident again (not even Jenna)
I still don't really think it counts. Zen used her mind for
information. That does not give her any rights over the
ship. She had to earn them, and while she did earn some,
I don't see that she did more than Avon. Or Cally for that
matter...

<Jenna and Avon's claim close to equal, with Jenna having
some slight edge both because of her link to Zen (and the risk of same)>

Which she didn't know about, so can't claim credit points for.

<and also because she was more proactive about participating
in Blake's plans; Avon was largely dragged along reluctantly.>

So? He did every bit as much as her for Blake and his cause,
if not more (how many times *did* he save Blake's life?) Both
of them were in it not for any active reason, but due to
personal loyalty to Fearless Leader. The fact that Avon didn't
*want* to give that loyalty doesn't negate the fact that Blake
could and did almost always rely on it. Enhances the fact, IMO,
since he spent two years giving where he didn't want
to.

Did Jenna ever say anything to Blake, openly or in private,
about wanting control of the Liberator? We don't know. Maybe
she didn't want it. We *do* know that Avon had spoken of it to
Blake.

Another thought, brought by my last paragraph...perhaps Blake
realised that Avon was the most likely of *all four* of his
crew to be able to count on the support of the others (Cally
and Vila). In a showdown (and if he'd given control to Jenna,
I think there would have *been* a showdown) I still think
Avon would have won.







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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 06:03:06 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist
Message-ID: <3783500A.41554EA6@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Julie Horner wrote:

> But I don't see how he would fit Anna Grant into the categories
> you suggest:
>
>   -  If he thinks her intelligent then you are suggesting
>      he would also suspect her of being dangerous - can't see Avon
>      sticking around long in that case.
>
>   -  If he slots her in to the exception category then she becomes
>      genderless to him - didn't look like that to me.
>
>   - That only leaves decorative and useless and I can't
>     see Avon risking so much for someone he categorizes as useless.

You're right; but with Anna, I think there are two additional
factors in play. First, there was something completely
exceptional about her that captured his imagination -- which
is why he loved her; and part of that possibly was her skill at
manipulating him. Among women, she was unique to him;
we don't see any evidence of him having that level of feeling
for another. Second, by the time we meet him, he's already
suffering the results of having lost Anna, tortured to death
(as he thinks) for his sake, and so he's shut down to those
kind of feelings far more than in the past. It's possible that
the third category of exceptions is indeed where he'd have
looked for potential mates without the pain of his experiences
with Anna. Lots of fen think he'd have softened up to Cally
eventually; I think he might have come to love Soolin as much
as Anna, given the right circumstances. So it's really not quite
fair to judge his feelings towards Anna on the same criteria as
we judge his feelings towards the women that he meets during
the series, as he was really a different person in a different
situation when he met her.

Just IMHO,
Mistral
--
"We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell;
we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question--
one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade'

--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #209
**************************************