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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 99 : Issue 218

Today's Topics:
	 Re: Lyst wars (Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan))
	 Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
	 [B7L] oops
	 Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
	 [B7L] Jenna and Cally (was Tyce (was : Servalan))
	 Re: [B7L] Tyce
	 Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
	 Re: [B7L] Soolin and Avon?  Mmmm...
	 [B7L] OT: Credits
	 Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
	 Re: [B7L] OT: Credits
	 Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
	 Re: [B7L] OT: Credits
	 Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally (was Tyce (was : Servalan))
	 [B7L] Lyst Wars
	 RE: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
	 RE: [B7L] Another door closes
	 Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
	 Re: [B7L] Soolin and Avon? Mmmm...
	 RE: [B7L] You know you've watched too much B7 when...
	 [B7L] prints from Val Westall
	 Re: [B7L] You know you've watched too much B7 when...
	 Re: Lyst wars (Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan))
	 Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
	 Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally (was Tyce (was : Servalan))
	 Re: [B7L] Lyst Wars
	 [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
	 Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:59:58 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Lyst wars (Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan))
Message-ID: <378AE3ED.198F15DE@ptinet.net>
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Neil Faulkner wrote:

> but I must confess to feeling irked sometimes when a thread on background or
> theoretical surmising gets hijacked by the character-centric lobby, who then
> turn it into a frame-by-frame account of interactive moments.

I can understand that. I don't much care for serious character
analyses to be turned into one-sided paeans, either. OTOH, isn't
it possible for a thread to split, or progress logically from one
topic to another? Hijack it back ;-)

> I'm barely
> reading the current spate of Tarrant/Vila posts because I find them utterly
> boring.  My loss, I guess.

Surely nobody expects everyone to enjoy every thread? Although,
you might contribute your analysis of how growing up in Federation
society caused Tarrant to have the dysfunctional attitudes that
allowed him to abuse Vila ;-)

> +ADw-It would be rather silly to think that Liberator/Scorpio crew all felt
> warm and fuzzy about each other, all of the time. Vila-Tarrant
> certainly strikes me as one of the less fuzzy ones. Everybody in the
> group, except possibly Jenna, was rude or nasty to Vila at some
> point. Tarrant is the only one where I see any evidence of it being
> something that affected the relationship negatively in the long term.
> That's not taking it personally, that's character analysis.+AD4-
>
> A paragraph that neatly illustrates my point of threads moving from the
> theoretical to the specific.

<grin> Now I find this both fascinating and unfathomable. You'd
have preferred that paragraph stopped after the first sentence?
Whereas I don't trust theories and generalities; as far as I am
concerned, a person who doesn't back up their assertions with
evidence is either lazy, bluffing, or closed-minded; ergo not actually
interested in dialogue and therefore not worth the effort of talking
to. I have absolutely no interest in other people's unsupported
conclusions, *particularly* before I know the other person well
enough to have a fairly good idea of their frame of reference.
<g> Just consider it my innate arrogance peeking out from
beneath the motley. 'I take nothing on trust.'

From me, a specific is a tender of sincerity. I would never expect
someone else to change his mind based on my conclusions alone
because I would never change mine based on another's conclusion;
however, there might be a piece of data that I didn't notice, or a
logical inference that I failed to draw. *Why* people think and do
certain things is far more illustrative than *what* they think and do.
For example, <g> I am always disappointed, as earlier this week,
when you make a comment about how you view Cally, without
explaining *why* you view her that way. From an odd comment
here and there, and your essay 'Oh no! Not Dayna', I believe
you must have thought about the characters a great deal; and I'd
enjoy giving serious consideration to a new slant on Cally; but an
unsupported conclusion gives me nothing to ponder, and no
incentive to reevaluate my own position.

> What I was actually trying to suggest was that
> the frictions between the characters are the focus of over-attention,

Yes, I got that, actually.

> because (a) such frictions are all part and parcel of normal everyday
> interaction between people,

Agreed.

> and (b) I don't think - though here I admit that
> I may well be wrong - that they are half as significant as all these
> in-depth character analyses seem to suggest.  Isolated moments are next to
> meaningless as sources of information for how two people relate to each
> other.

:) Approximately as meaningless as points that define a
mathematical function. The more complex the function,
the more points are necessary. Human relationships are
notoriously complex; the goal is to show the pattern.

> Nor do I think the motives ascribed to one character or another are
> necessarily as clear-cut as is often suggested, especially when the
> character is acting in a moment of crisis.  So to say 'Tarrant/Avon/Soolin
> did or said such-and-such in order to....' is suggesting a level of
> premeditation to the characters' actions/words that did not really exist (or
> wouldn't have really existed if it wasn't all made up by the script-writers
> anyway).

Most everyone has multiple layers of motives for most every
action; but discussion of motives doesn't imply premeditation,
as many motives are subconscious; it doesn't mean those
motives don't exist.

As for being made up by the script-writers, well, making the
pattern of the character out of what the script-writers gave
us is just another aspect of The Game; and I know that doesn't
really interest you, but have you considered that the milieu is
just as artificial as the characters? In both cases, simply an
artistic representation of reality, not reality itself; which makes
discussion of background and characters equally valid or invalid,
and simply a matter of personal interest.

> My comment with regard to a shortfall of appreciation of sarcasm and irony
> was mainly aimed at those people who appear - at least IMO - to attach undue
> significance to the petty arguments and bickerings between the characters
> (especially Avon and Blake).

I've missed something, I think. What significance do people
attach to bickering between Blake and Avon?

> 'Warm and fuzzy' is the exception rather than
> the norm, yet much of the character analysis tacitly assumes it as an
> ambient state of affairs, any deviation from which deserves in-depth
> scrutiny.

Ooh. Well, I think the relationships are largely familial, due
to enforced closeness, but I don't think for the most part
they're warm and fuzzy. Some of them are cold and prickly.
And most or all of them change over time.

> +ADw-If you want to trash my opinions, Neil, feel free,+AD4-
>
> Ah, well, since you ask...

The unchallenged opinion is hardly worth holding.

> +ADw-and I'll probably enjoy it.+AD4-
>
> And ruin my fun?  Ooh, you rotten swine, you.

In that case, Pusillus, allow me to really demolish your day
by sending you a

<hug>

Mistral
--
"We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell;
we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question--
one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade'

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 03:19:18 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Message-ID: <1549bc9e.24bc4276@aol.com>
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In a message dated 99-07-12 23:29:30 EDT, Tigerm1019@aol.com writes:

<< Too late, Adam.  You must not be on the spin list.  The omniscient High 
 Priestess Penny is already very much aware of Susan's calumny against Travis 
 2.  Did you honestly think she wouldn't find out?  The comfy chair is 
 waiting....<eg> >>

Oh. My advice for the latest brave enough to admit dislike of Travis 2, run 
as far and as fast as you can, maybe you'll get away. Probably not, but it's 
worth a try. Even the memories of the karoake <<shudder>>. 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 01:30:10 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] oops
Message-ID: <378AF911.C451FA78@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Er...

It's just occurred to me, I've misnamed Neil's essay. It was
'Oh No Not Tarrant!' I was referring to; got the title confused
with 'Let's Hear It for Dayna'. Bad Mistral. Good essays.

Sorry Neil.

Mistral
--
"It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo."
                        --the third Doctor

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 02:58:55 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
Message-ID: <378B0DDE.62B6656C@ptinet.net>
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Tigerm1019@aol.com wrote:

Actually, this is from TigerM's message, but I've lost track
of who actually said what.

> >  >Presumably, Avon or Cally could have spoken up against the Keezarn plan
> any
> >  >time before or after the deal with Norl was made.  They could have
> >  suggested
> >  >they try somewhere else for the crystals.  They could have suggested that
> >  the
> >  >deal Tarrant negotiated wasn't acceptable.  But they don't appear to have
> >  >done that, because Tarrant wouldn't have pressed the matter if the
> majority
> >  >(Avon-Cally-Vila) disagreed with him.  It isn't until Vila has teleported
> >  to
> >  >the surface that Avon and Cally start to protest about how Tarrant handled
> >  >the matter.  Too late to do Vila any good.
> >
> >  Which was pretty convenient.  It's a lot easier to gripe after the deed is
> >  done.
>
> Exactly.  This seems pretty hypocritical on Avon's part.  Avon has never been
> hesitant to force Vila into danger, even to risk his life.

<sigh> That is a pretty creative retelling of 'City'. Avon and
Cally *both* criticized Tarrant's handling of the plan and his
disregard for Vila *before* Vila went down to Keezarn. They
also worked together to provide Vila with a safety, the tracer,
even against Tarrant's word and over his protests. Avon quite
specifically offered Vila a chance to back out when he asked
about a last minute protest; at the very least he was checking
whether Vila needed any reassurance, but Vila had been too
frightened by Tarrant to speak up, and so went to Keezarn.
Avon then tells Tarrant not to treat Vila like that again, and at
the *first* sign of trouble tries to find him, but Vila didn't take
the tracer -- because Tarrant had frightened him so badly he
didn't trust anyone, as *Tarrant himself admits*. So Avon
and Cally go after Vila themselves, and refuse to let Tarrant
handle it any more.

That certainly doesn't sound like Avon letting Tarrant do the
dirty work to me. It sounds more like Avon giving Tarrant a
chance to deal with a problem and having to handle the
fallout when Tarrant screws up.

> In Gambit he
> forced Vila to play the Klute at speed chess, when Vila was drugged and
> couldn't resist.  I find it very hard to forgive Avon for this, but I'm
> willing to forgive Tarrant's behavior, so I can forgive Avon.

Not. Vila had sobered up and Vila made the final decision.

> Eventually.
> He also forces Vila to teleport aboard the asteroid in Sarcophagus when Vila
> doesn't want to go.

Totally inaccurate. Vila doesn't object a bit.

Not that Avon's a saint, mind you. But if you want to compare
his bad behaviour to Tarrant's, at least use some actual examples.

Mistral
--
"We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell;
we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question--
one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade'

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 06:47:02 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Jenna and Cally (was Tyce (was : Servalan))
Message-ID: <199907130647_MC2-7CC8-E49A@compuserve.com>
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Adam wrote:
>The only way Cally and Jenna could ever be more than 
>civil toward each other was a team-up against Blake. 

You're not watching them properly.  Try Breakdown, where Cally seems more
worried about Jenna than anyone or anything else as Gan goes on the
rampage.  Plenty of other moments suggest a close intimacy grew up after
Jenna's initial suspicion (another famous Cally smile is when Jenna first
mutters about the folly of bringing aliens on board!).  I date the turning
point to The Web, when Jenna quickly realises it isn't the "real" Cally
who's sabotaging them, and Cally telepaths "Thank you, Jenna."

Harriet

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 03:48:26 PDT
From: "Hellen Paskaleva" <hellen_pas@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tyce
Message-ID: <19990713104827.40655.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>AdamWho@aol.com schrieb:
>
> > I don't know, did Tyce ever really make a big impact in the story?

Actually, *she* was the one, who forced Sarkoff to try and restore his 
presidency. I can't see neither an 'usual' guard, nor any one else in 
Sarkoff’s surroundings to have enough influence upon him to do that.
I like her interaction with Blake, too. She *respects* him and his cause, I 
adore this.

Hellen, the Bulgarian


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:52:40 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
Message-ID: <99118e68.24bc8288@aol.com>
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Claudia (quoting TigerM) wrote:

> : Exactly.  This seems pretty hypocritical on Avon's part.  Avon has never 
> been 
>  : hesitant to force Vila into danger, even to risk his life.
>  
>  I was dubious when I read this....

I believe the point is that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw 
stones.   Avon doesn't hesitate to send Vila into danger.  Sometimes Vila 
protests (to no avail) and sometimes he doesn't.  It's still a case that 
Avon's mission is putting Vila in danger.  I don't fault Avon.  They were a 
team.  It's only fair to spread the risks around.  The point is both Avon and 
Tarrant sent Vila into risky situations.

Some examples of Avon's choosing Vila for a mission are:

HOSTAGE  And Vila wasn't even a particularly good choice here.  I think Jenna 
or Cally would have handled the job better.
DAWN OF THE GODS (with Tarrant's backing)  Vila doesn't want to go.  He goes.
SARCOPHAGUS
STARDRIVE (again with Tarrant's backing)  In this case Avon and Tarrant send 
Vila and Dayna knowing they are bait, knowing they will most likely be 
caught.  I doubt Vila would have gone willingly if Avon had provided full 
disclosure on the mission along with the option of unvolunteering.  
GAMES  Not only does Avon send Vila (and others) on a mission, but he seems a 
bit callous in regard to their safety.  He wants Belkov to think they left so 
he decides to hide behind the Orbiter.  Soolin asks him what about the others 
while this maneuver is in progress.  Avon replies: "Well, during the maneuver 
they are entirely on their own, but once we are back in our new orbit, the 
teleport system should function quite normally.  Oh, it's a calculated risk. 
But at least you and I can be certain that we can get away when we want to." 
Vila does want to unvolunteer and return to the ship, but Avon isn't around 
to allow him the option to return.  
ORBIT  The classic case.  Vila doesn't want to go.  You might think as leader 
of the expedition Avon would feel responsible for the man he chose to 
accompany him, the man he told Tarrant not to frighten (CITY), the man he 
thought shouldn't be forced to go on risky missions if he didn't want to 
(MOLOCH).

Again, I'm not faulting Avon for choosing Vila for missions or for risking 
Vila's life.  As Avon said, there are "calculated risks."  And they are all 
required to take some of them.  But I do find it hypocritical that Avon 
criticizes Tarrant for frightenging Vila and for sending Vila into danger 
when he does the same thing himself.

Referring back to the Avon-Soolin thread, the leaving shipmates temporarily 
stranded in GAMES is another example of why Soolin isn't likely to trust Avon.

Carol Mc

 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 06:13:28 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Soolin and Avon?  Mmmm...
Message-ID: <378B3B77.3C3E417@ptinet.net>
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Rob Clother wrote:

> Mistral, Re Avon & Soolin:
>
> >I could easily see them developing an 'us against the universe'
> >mentality -- which still wouldn't preclude them scrapping with
> >each other occasionally. <g> It would be fun for both of them!!!
>
> This is an oft-repeated theme on the list; yet watching the Fourth Season, I
> always thought that Soolin had a dim view of Avon.  She tolerated him when
> they had to work together; she ignored him or threatened him at other times.
>
> The only canonical evidence I can recall off the top of my head is Soolin's
> fury at the end of "Gold", and her warning to Avon in "Blake" (You know --
> "I really could get quite annoyed if...", meaning, "You're dead meat
> if...").

Mmmm.... they worked together much too well for mere
tolerance; and there are as many examples of amusement
as there are of annoyance. Certainly she challenges him
from time to time; less, actually, than he challenged Blake;
surely you don't think Avon sincerely had a dim view of
Blake? Some of Blake's attitudes, yes, until they got to know
each other; roughly the same thing going on with Avon-Soolin.
And she always accepts his explanation; something that
*didn't* happen with Avon and Blake. [And one of the things
I particularly like is that he always, quite calmly, gives her
an explanation -- and generally without showing any hint
of irritation.]

Take a look at Headhunter, Gold, Warlord (especially
Warlord). Their working relationship is smooth, efficient,
often wordless; and not only can she handle him -- he
allows himself to be handled.

> In general, though, Soolin had the ability to look into people's hearts.
> She had a level of sensitivity matched only by Blake (Look at her
> interactions with Nebrox in "Assassin"), and I always felt that she was
> repelled by Avon's insensitivity.  In her eyes, it was a sign of weakness,
> or merely laziness.

Actually, it's because of that sensitivity that she's likely to
care for him eventually. As you point out yourself, Blake
had it, and he certainly grew to respect and care for Avon.
Blake knew there was something worthwhile there; Soolin
would too. Avon's insensitivity is self-protection rather than
a lack of caring, a refusal to commit lightly rather than an
inability to commit at all. Soolin would recognize that as well;
in fact, having lived most of her life behind a similar mask,
first with those who killed her family, and later with Dorian.
Both Avon (Hal Mellanby, Veron, Meegat) and Soolin
(Nebrox, Zeeona) are more open and kind with casual
acquaintances than they are with those they must share
their lives with, IMHO because of a need to stay detached
from casual emotional entanglements. She's hardly likely to
condemn him for a trait she shares.

There's an old saying, 'to understand all is to forgive all'. I
certainly think it applies here -- not in the sense that anyone
ever understands another person completely, but in the sense
that Avon's and Soolin's values are similar enough for her to
appreciate his strengths and accept his flaws.

> Someone as complicated as Soolin would need to be with someone who
> understood her perfectly.  Avon simply lacked the subtlety and
> sophistication to do so.

Dear me, I'd have to think that Soolin's well aware that no-one
is ever understood perfectly. I think she'd be quite happy to
settle for someone who's values are similar to her own, and
who doesn't back down from a commitment once he finally
makes it. He's quite a cut above Dorian.

I don't mean to imply that there's a romance brewing in
series D; just that there's a potential for a really solid,
satisfying, *safe* relationship for both of them, given
time for it to develop.

Just IMHO,
Mistral
--
"We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell;
we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question--
one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade'

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:50:24 EDT
From: Carolyn772@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] OT: Credits
Message-ID: <4e5573a8.24bc9e20@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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I was rewatching the early episodes, and noticed that the end credits changed 
a bit after the first few.  As you know, as the ep ends, the theme music 
rises (everyone together "dum da DUM dum".) 

In the early eps, Gareth Thomas gets a beat of about eight (roughly eight 
seconds) and the others a beat of four.  After The Web, everyone gets equal 
time.

Now is that nitpicky, or what?  <g>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:09:11 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
Message-ID: <40482d8b.24bca287@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Lorna B. wrote:

> Using Vila as the Mikey Life Cereal test, huh?  :-)  Seriously, though,
>  there are times when his trustmeter goes haywire.  Like initially with
>  Doran.  Or with Pella.  Or with the Chengan hunters.  Sometimes Vila can be
>  grossly naive and trusting, most usually when being misled by a pretty face
>  and a nice pair of legs.

Ooops, you are absolutely right!  I need to revise Vila's reliability as a 
trustmeter.  It's not effective around women (he'd have probably been taken 
in as easily by Piri as Tarrant was, come to think of it :) or around men who 
enjoy partying.

>  I think Avon had kind of hoped they could forget all about that rebellion
>  business, but they got sucked back in again.  Perhaps due to the new crew's
>  enthusiasm for action.

Or perhaps because Servalan lusted after Liberator.
  
>  Poor little thing was sick and maudlin at the time.  But I think he was
>  feeling particularly glum at that moment.  And maybe a little guilty about
>  being unable to rescue Cally.

Yep, it's a very down moment.  And it was wonderful to see.  Most of time our 
gang kept their vulnerabilities well hidden.  
   
>  And we know Vila didn't always choose the smartest thing on the menu given
>  him.  ;-)

I don't think any of them always chose the smartest thing on the menu.  
Tarrant running *toward* the bomb in Warlord.  Dayna challenging Gun-Sar.  At 
which point reckless Tarrant gave reckless Dayna a scold.  Speaking of 
hypocritical behavior (as I was in another post), this is clearly a case of 
the pot calling the kettle black.

Carol Mc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:33:29 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] OT: Credits
Message-ID: <000e01becd3c$d2646800$0d01a8c0@hedge>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Carolyn said:

> I was rewatching the early episodes, and noticed that the end credits
changed
> a bit after the first few.  As you know, as the ep ends, the theme music
> rises (everyone together "dum da DUM dum".)
>
> In the early eps, Gareth Thomas gets a beat of about eight (roughly eight
> seconds) and the others a beat of four.  After The Web, everyone gets
equal
> time.
>
> Now is that nitpicky, or what?  <g>

Impressively so! I'm just off to check...


Una

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:51:39 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Message-ID: <708303c2.24bcac7b@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Lorna B. wrote:

> That was a very nasty scene.  The only excuse Avon had for that action was
>  the very bad position the rebels were in.  That would make anyone
>  exceptionally testy.  But, jeez, Vila really couldn't help blabbing to
>  Travis.  With a gun to his head, what else could he do?

Die. ;-)  

Granted Avon has cause to be worried and testy, but he also seems to be 
conveniently forgetting that Vila wouldn't have been there to mess up if Avon 
hadn't chosen him for the job.  Mind you, Avon didn't expect Vila to mess up. 
 But things don't always turn out as you expect.  Tarrant didn't think he was 
sending Vila into danger in CITY.  Everyone makes mistakes.

This might be a time to look at different leadership styles.  I'm not saying 
one style is wrong and one style is right; I'm just pointing out differences. 
When Blake and Tarrant sent people off into danger, they assumed 
responsibility for them.  

In SEEK, LOCATE Blake insists on going back for Cally, to name just one 
example.

In CITY Tarrant isn't willing to leave Keezarn without Vila when Avon 
suggests it is time to leave (because the light is failing), to name just one 
example.

Avon, as shown in other posts I've written this morning, doesn't seem as 
protective in HOSTAGE, GAMES, and ORBIT.

As mentioned above, I'm not saying one style is right and the other wrong.  
There are probably times when protection is possible and other times when it 
might be more advisable to cut your losses and run.  If I were the one in 
danger, I'd rather hope Blake or Tarrant was around to get me out.  If I were 
safe on the ship, I'd probably react the way Vila did in ANIMALS.   He 
doesn't want to go back to Bucol 2.  Tarrant says they have to, Dayna is 
there.  Vila replies:  "And I'm sorry about that, but I don't see why I 
should be punished for your guilty conscience."  Somehow, I think Vila 
wouldn't mind Tarrant's guilty conscience if he were the one on Bucol 2. ;)

There's one other interesting bit to this leadership thing.  After ORBIT Avon 
appears to have reexamined his priorities and adopted the Blake-Tarrant 
style.  He becomes very protective and responsible for dangerous situations 
that he created.  Avon set up the Warlord alliance and he responds to Zukan's 
lifeboat solution with a threat: "If just one of them dies, for any reason at 
all, so do you, Zukan."  Avon brought his crew to Gauda Prime and then is 
very reluctant to leave Tarrant to die on Scorpio.

>  >There is only one body worthy of sculpture.  :)
>  
>  Vila's, right?  ;-)

Tell you what, we've both been working awfully hard on this serious stuff.  I 
think we both deserve to set it aside and explore more hedonistic subjects.  
Some posts back, you aptly pointed out that this is a family oriented list, 
so this probably isn't the best place to change direction to intimate 
relationships.  What say we pop on over to ye old Space City Satellite of Sin 
and discuss two bodies worthy of sculpture, particularly when they are 
tangled together. <g>

Carol Mc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:54:24 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] OT: Credits
Message-ID: <cd292b35.24bcad20@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Carolyn wrote:

> In the early eps, Gareth Thomas gets a beat of about eight (roughly eight 
>  seconds) and the others a beat of four.  After The Web, everyone gets 
equal 
>  time.
>  
>  Now is that nitpicky, or what?  <g>

I can admire such attention to detail. :)  

Carol Mc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:25:52 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally (was Tyce (was : Servalan))
Message-ID: <e4a522e1.24bcb480@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 99-07-13 06:49:34 EDT, 101637.2064@compuserve.com writes:

<< You're not watching them properly.  Try Breakdown, where Cally seems more
 worried about Jenna than anyone or anything else as Gan goes on the
 rampage.  Plenty of other moments suggest a close intimacy grew up after
 Jenna's initial suspicion (another famous Cally smile is when Jenna first
 mutters about the folly of bringing aliens on board!).  I date the turning
 point to The Web, when Jenna quickly realises it isn't the "real" Cally
 who's sabotaging them, and Cally telepaths "Thank you, Jenna." >>

I don't think Jenna or Cally ever hated each other, at least not after Jenna 
got over her initial distrust, but they never seemed more than civil. Cally 
helped Jenna in Breakdown because she's a compassionate person, not because 
of any undying friendship. There are episodes where Cally and Jenna work 
together well (Hostage), or Jenna shows concern for Cally (Shadow), but I 
never thought of the relationship as anything more than the two as allies. 
I'd compare it to Cally's relationship with Dayna, which is also friendly but 
not too close. 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:24:08 -0700
From: "Kinkade, Carol A" <Carol.Kinkade@West.Boeing.com>
To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Lyst Wars
Message-ID: <B12052866F7AD211BE530008C7A4C64B70DC9D@xch-hbc-04.mdc.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="ISO-8859-1"

>In a message dated 7/12/99 12:25:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
N.Faulkner@tesco.net <mailto:N.Faulkner@tesco.net>  writes:
>>>What I was actually trying to suggest was that the frictions between the
characters are the focus of over-attention, because (a) such frictions are
all part and parcel of normal everyday interaction between people, and (b) I
don't think - though here I admit that I may well be wrong - that they are
half as significant as all these in-depth character analyses seem to
suggest.  Isolated moments are next to meaningless as sources of information
for how two people relate to each other.  Nor do I think the motives
ascribed to one character or another are necessarily as clear-cut as is
often suggested, especially when the character is acting in a moment of
crisis.  So to say 'Tarrant/Avon/Soolin did or said such-and-such in order
to....' is suggesting a level of premeditation to the characters'
actions/words that did not really exist (or wouldn't have really existed if
it wasn't all made up by the script-writers anyway).  <<<



Basically, I completely agree with this.  But, the reason these
threads/discussions are interesting is because they bring to the fore the
views of other fans.  Even if I don't agree, or don't see things the same
way, it's still FUN to read how others see the characters and how they
interpret events.  I've said this before but I'll say it again, I'm amazed
at the difference in views re this show.  The multiple "explication de
texte" of Avon alone is mind-boggling.  But, it is entertaining,
informative, and FUN.  The threads on the sex appeal of the characters are
equally entertaining; after all, the sex appeal of the characters is part of
the attraction to the show.

But that doesn't mean theoretical analyses of the B7 universe, life, and
politics aren't just as interesting and entertaining.  I love the threads
that explore the probables and possibles of life in the Federation.  Neil's
have been some of the best.  And I am an avid reader of his posts.

BUT, sometimes it's just plain ole fun to indulge in a gush-fest for my
favorite character.  ;)  or to explore in depth the motive for the most
minute of actions. <g>  Besides, these discussions often bring to light some
very interesting observations. IMO

Carol K
AVON RULES!!!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:08:23 +0200
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: RE: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F554BEC@NL-ARN-MAIL01>
Content-Type: text/plain

Adam Who spoke:

> << Too late, Adam.  You must not be on the spin list.  The omniscient High
> 
>  Priestess Penny is already very much aware of Susan's calumny against
> Travis 
>  2.  Did you honestly think she wouldn't find out?  The comfy chair is 
>  waiting....<eg> >>
> 
> Oh. My advice for the latest brave enough to admit dislike of Travis 2,
> run 
> as far and as fast as you can, maybe you'll get away. Probably not, but
> it's 
> worth a try. Even the memories of the karoake <<shudder>>. 
> 
Hah, there is no escape from the one true church of Travis. I have already
primed the piranha's, started up the karaoke set and oiled the chains on the
'comfy' chair. Just gimme a minute while I iron my red robes. They're
wrinkled from when I threw them in a corner when I didn't get to use them at
the last minute. I won't be put off so easily this time!

Jacqueline, Chief High inquisitioner of the Church of the True Travis.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:13:13 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Another door closes
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0713171313-bbaRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On Mon 12 Jul, Trevor Gensch wrote:
> Are there contact details for these two fellows?
> 
> I am new to the world of online Blake fandom.

Andrew Williams -  AWilliams@daikin.com.au

Kathryn Andersen - kat@welkin.apana.org.au

I keep a list of zines looking for submissions on my web site, though the list
really needs updating as it's several months out of date.

Judith
-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 -  Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc.  (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight)
Redemption '01  23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:49:23 EDT
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
Message-ID: <57a6b98e.24bce433@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 7/13/99 3:45:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Mac4781 writes:

> : Exactly.  This seems pretty hypocritical on Avon's part.  Avon has never 
> been 
>  : hesitant to force Vila into danger, even to risk his life.
>  
>  I was dubious when I read this....
>  
>  : In Gambit he 
>  : forced Vila to play the Klute at speed chess, when Vila was drugged and 
>  : couldn't resist.  I find it very hard to forgive Avon for this, but I'm 
>  : willing to forgive Tarrant's behavior, so I can forgive Avon.
>  
>  And a bit indignant here.  Avon didn't know anything about the speed chess.
>  He was quite startled when it was announced that Vila would be playing;
>  he quite memorably spits up some ice cream or something that he's eating
>  when the MC makes that announcement.  I will grant you some other moments,
>  but Vila and Avon are a team all through Gambit... in it together for the
>  money.  And quite fun it is to watch.

I agree that Vila is a willing accomplice, despite the fact that they are 
leaving Blake, Cally and Jenna without emergency teleport in a very dangerous 
situation. However, Vila didn't come to his senses from the drug until he was 
already in the chair.  He says he doesn't want to play, whereupon Krantor 
declares that the five million credits would be forfeit.  Avon insists that 
Vila play, despite the risk to Vila's life.  He tries to protest and Avon 
overrides him because he'd rather risk Vila's life than forfeit the five 
million credits.  This seems to be nothing more than selfishness and greed to 
me.

>  The script is at
>  
>  ftp://ftp.lysator.liu.se/pub/blake7/scripts/24.Gambit
>  
>  if you want to check for yourself.

I have something better:  the pro tapes.;-)  Scripts are Ok, but they don't 
always have what actually appears on screen in them.
 
>  Once Vila has recovered from the drugging, yes, Avon does tell him to
>  play (rather than lose the money).  But Vila is sober if panicked at
>  that point, and I think he wants the money every bit as much as Avon does.

Hmmm, it looked to me as though Vila wanted to quit and not risk his life, 
even if it meant forfeiting the money.  I doubt Avon would have been so eager 
if it had been his life on the line.
 
>  : Eventually.  
>  : He also forces Vila to teleport aboard the asteroid in Sarcophagus when 
> Vila 
>  : doesn't want to go.  Vila nearly died that time too. 
>  
>  This is simply incorrect.  Vila doesn't object at all (BTW, it's a ship,
>  not an asteroid).  And Avon is in every bit as much danger as Vila at
>  that point, until Cally comes back for both of them.  And no suggestion
>  is made after the fact that they shouldn't have gone.

I stand corrected.  I confused the asteroid and the spaceship/tomb.  However, 
vila may not have verbally protested, but he didn't strike me as being 
particularly eager to go.  And Avon does insist Vila go into danger on 
numerous other occasions, which Carol has already mentioned.  As for City and 
Moloch, the episodes originally under discussion, 

>  : Avon's very willing to 
>  : have Tarrant do his dirty work for him and then absolve himself of any 
>  : responsibilty with his after-the-fact protests, at least on these two 
>  : occasions.
>  
>  So I can't make much sense of this, I'm afraid.

My point was that Avon is willing to risk Vila's life without a qualm.  In 
City, neither Avon nor Cally do anything to prevent Vila being sent to 
Keezarn;  they just fuss at Tarrant about his methods afterwards.  In Moloch, 
Avon doesn't say anything until Tarrant and Vila are already gone.  In either 
case, his fussing is too late to help Vila.  I think we may just have to 
agree to disagree.

Tiger M

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:00:37 PDT
From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Soolin and Avon? Mmmm...
Message-ID: <19990713170037.20475.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Mistral:

>Mmmm.... they worked together much too well for mere
>tolerance; and there are as many examples of amusement
>as there are of annoyance. Certainly she challenges him
>from time to time; less, actually, than he challenged Blake;
>surely you don't think Avon sincerely had a dim view of
>Blake?

No -- but comparing Avon and Soolin is comparing apples and oranges.  What 
Soolin says, Soolin means; Avon consistently says things he doesn't mean.

Fraid I don't have time to write anything else; thanx for your long reply -- 
should be able to pick up on some more of your points tomorrow.

(All IMHO of course, but then everyone's view of everyone is in their HO.)

-- Rob




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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:44:24 +1000
From: "Trevor Gensch" <timelord@mail.cth.com.au>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] You know you've watched too much B7 when...
Message-ID: <000401becd70$7de8e9c0$09d11dcb@signup>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Oh god, he wasn't the guy with the ridicuously high collar?


Trev.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Una McCormack [mailto:una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk]
> Sent: Monday, July 12, 1999 10:32
> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
> Subject: Re: [B7L] You know you've watched too much B7 when...
> 
> 
> 
> Trev asked:
> 
> > I obviously do not think about B7 much.  Who the heck is Carnell?
> 
> The highlight of the episode 'Weapon'.
> 
> 
> Una
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:44:16 +0100
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] prints from Val Westall
Message-ID: <mpu5ODAAk4i3Ewz3@jajones.demon.co.uk>

Richard has told me not to be so silly, and use postage prices that can
be worked out without use of a calculator. The new prices are on
Judith's website at:

http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7/Merchant/Prints/Helen.html

I collected a pile of originals from Val last week, so most of her
recently published work is now available as prints, including the ones
in the zines published at MediaWest. I will put together a list when
I've finished the course of antibiotics that is currently making me feel
a good deal worse than is what I'm taking it for. In the meantime,
anyone who's interested in ordering prints or originals can email me at
helen.patrick@bigfoot.com to check on availability. For zine illos,
quote zine and page number, otherwise give me enough of a description
that I can identify which one you're interested in.
-- 
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
        The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:46:47 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] You know you've watched too much B7 when...
Message-ID: <000201becd79$f3593800$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Trev responded in horror:

> > > I obviously do not think about B7 much.  Who the heck is Carnell?
> >
> > The highlight of the episode 'Weapon'.
>
> Oh god, he wasn't the guy with the ridicuously high collar?

Rest easy - that was Coser. Carnell was the one with the long eyelashes, the
computer chess game and the winning smile.


Una

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:44:28 EST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Lyst wars (Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan))
Message-ID: <19990713234429.72462.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>And ruin my fun?  Ooh, you rotten swine, you.
>Neil

Vision of Neil as a bearded Bluebottle. Bad. Very bad, for my health <grin>

Regards
Joanne
(wondering if she really is back at work too early)


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:30:23 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Message-ID: <19990714043023.71122.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Tigerm1019@aol.com writes:

<I'm with Carol on this one.  Only one body on B7 is worthy of
>sculpture.;-) >

Absolutely. Avon. Or Blake. Or - yes, Avon. No,
definitely Blake. Or...


(Well, Neil, at least we've stopped discussing their characters> Happier 
now? <VEG>)


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:46:25 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna and Cally (was Tyce (was : Servalan))
Message-ID: <19990714044626.10292.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Adam wrote:
<The only way Cally and Jenna could ever be more than
civil toward each other was a team-up against Blake.

And Harriet replied:
<You're not watching them properly.  Try Breakdown, where Cally seems more 
worried about Jenna than anyone or anything else as Gan goes on the rampage. 
  Plenty of other moments suggest a close intimacy grew up after Jenna's 
initial suspicion...>

I like Jenna's "I may have taught you too well" in Avalon - the
smile and the way she says it make it clear it is a gently teasing 
reassurance and a compliment to Cally's piloting.


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:13:36 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Lyst Wars
Message-ID: <19990714051337.37023.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Carol K wrote:

<I've said this before but I'll say it again, I'm
amazed at the difference in views re this show.  The
multiple "explication de texte" of Avon alone is mind-
boggling.>

Yes, and every single one of us firmly and serenely
convinced that if we argue long enough and loud enough,
everyone else will come to their senses and realise that we
are *right*...






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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:15:26 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Message-ID: <19990714061531.566.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Susan Riaz wrote:

<Beautiful!   But whose body, and which part, would you sculpture?!   
Personally
I would take Gareth Thomas in "Blake" - yum! yum!>

Ah, I thought - a woman of taste (mind you, what about Avon????)

<Tanja wrote:   "The actress obviously took her cue from Paul Darrow as 
Avon, who
certianly is guilty of the charge of sneering, being smug, pouting, etc.">

<Yes, but he looked scrumptious doing it!!!>

Aha, I thought, definitely a woman after my own heart. But then...

<By the way, my least favourite guest character was that snivelling little 
idiot
that supposedly guards Servalan in "Gambit".   Even Travis II seemed to 
consider him
a waste of time.>

Jarriere???  My poor underappreciated adorable Jarriere? Tell me you don't 
mean Jarriere...

Oh well, two out of three ain't bad <g>.


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:23:44 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Message-ID: <19990714062348.88847.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Adam asked:

<Was it Gan or Avon who became irritated when Vila took
too long getting prepared in Project Avalon? I thought
it was Avon,and Cally.>

It was Avon, but he wasn't so much irritated as (for
once in his life) openly kerflummoxed. The 'I don't
believe he's DOING this' expression on Avon’s face is
gorgeous.

<I think Avon is irritated by Vila, he also uses him as
a convenient target for insults, but he feels no real
hostility toward Vila.>

Yes, he's irritated, but there is a friendship IMO, if of
a rather strange type. It's clear that they have little
or no respect for each other as *people* (though
quite a lot for each other's - err- unique talents) but
quite like each other anyway. And each *knows* that the
other doesn't respect him, and doesn't really mind.

The insults fly both ways, remember - it's a genuine
Mutual Disparagement Society (at least till that little
shuttle incident).


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--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #218
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