From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se
Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #229
X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
X-Mailing-List: <blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se> archive/volume99/229
Precedence: list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------"
To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se

------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

blakes7-d Digest				Volume 99 : Issue 229

Today's Topics:
	 Re: [B7L] Harriet's Pella essay
	 Re: [B7L] Good news!
	 Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
	 Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does?
	 Re: [B7L] Harriet's Pella essay
	 Re: [B7L] Harriet's Pella essay
	 Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? (was Re: Avon & Vila)
	 Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does?
	 Re: [B7L] Return of the Avon/Soolin debate
	 Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
	 Re: [B7L] Good news!
	 Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does?
	 [B7L] Blake the manipulator
	 Re: [B7L] Return of the Avon/Soolin debate
	 Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
	 Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does?
	 Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
	 Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
	 [B7L] Re: Greedy is as greedy does?
	  Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? Part One

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 01:03:22 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Harriet's Pella essay
Message-ID: <57e33b27.24cbf49a@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I forgot to put the webpage where the essay is located:

http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7/Essays/Pella.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 10:31:16 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Good news!
Message-ID: <19990518.121815.3326.0.Rilliara@juno.com>

On Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:08:53 -0500 Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net> writes:
>David A McIntee forwarded:
>
>>The old favourites will replace American classics such as Ironside 
>and UFO
>>at off-peak periods in the afternoons and at weekends.
>
>Since when did UFO become an *American* classic?
>
As soon as someone in advertising thought it would sell better as one.

Ellynne

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:18:13 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
Message-ID: <19990518.121815.3326.3.Rilliara@juno.com>

On Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:07:02 +1000 Kathryn Andersen
<kat@welkin.apana.org.au> writes:
>On Thu, Jul 22, 1999 at 11:21:50PM -0700, mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
>> 
>> As to her name, Sue Lynn is also common in the US,
>> and isn't AFAIK particular to any ethnic group.
>
>That would be fine except for the fact that it's spelt "Soolin".
>
Thanks, Kathryn.  I guess I expressed myself poorly (what else is new?). 
The name sounded like a friend's (although not quite the same) and I
always made that link till another friend pointed out Sue Lynn was a
stereotypical farm girl name.

But Soolin means pale jade, and I understand pale is more negative in
Chinese than in English, implying death.  It seems much more fitting. It
also seems more like a name someone other than family would have given
her.

Ellynne

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:02:58 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does?
Message-ID: <19990518.121815.3326.2.Rilliara@juno.com>

On Sat, 24 Jul 1999 02:39:36 PDT "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
writes:

>Followed by Gail's:
><I always felt that Blake was using emotional blackmail with Avon,

. Blake
>*likes* Avon (he is exasperated and infuriated on a regular basis,
>yes, but they do like each other. Sally's First Rule.) So why on earth
>must his liking and his respect for the other man's opinion be
>twisted into 'emotional blackmail'?
>
>***Blake is not to blame for the fact that Avon cares about him.***

Trying to be fair (i.e. wishy washy) to both sides here, I think Avon
sometimes _does_ blame Blake for the fact that he cares about him. 
Avon's problem is he _didn't_ decide to like Blake, he just likes him. 
For most people, not a problem, but it is for him.  Being emotionally
attached to Avon is something he perceives as threatening.  Worse, Blake
is aware of Avon's liking him and, at times, appeals to Avon's loyalty
and decency, traits Avon doesn't like to admit exists.  

For the average person, this wouldn't be either threatening or blackmail,
and I don't think Blake usually sees it as such (he's far too people
sensitive not to know Avon sometimes feels threatened by it).  At other
times, I think he feels he is pushing Avon on things he needs to be
pushed on--but he knows when to back off.  In Countdown, he doesn't let
Avon's reaction over Del Grant go till he knows what's going on,
realizing he needs to know what kind of trouble he can expect between
them and then trying to curtail that trouble till the planet's saved. 
OTOH, although he tries to talk to Avon about Anna and believes Avon
would be better off talking about it, he lets it go.

Ellynne

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:02:27 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Harriet's Pella essay
Message-ID: <19990518.121815.3326.1.Rilliara@juno.com>

On Sat, 24 Jul 1999 23:11:01 EDT AdamWho@aol.com writes:
>After watching Power for the first time (a very strong contender for 
>worst B7 
>episode), I read Harriet's essay on Pella, and the pathetic turn taken 
>with 
>the character in her final minutes. It is a wonderful essay, and I 
>completely 
>agree. 
>
>Only the misogny of Ben Steed could produce an episode where every 
>female is 
>killed, except the real "woman", Nina, who tolerated her husband's 
>abuse and 
>treatment of her as a servant.

After seeing this episode, I had to find some excuse for what happened or
lose all sympathy for Avon and start rooting for Servalan to beat him. 
The simplest answer, that Avon was obviously still recovering from
Dorian's attempt to dump all of his personality problems on the crew and
that Avon's misogyny was really _Dorian's_ misogyny, didn't occur to me
till later.  THis is all a little twisted, and anyone who feels Power is
inexcuseable may skip the following excuse.

1) Start with Gunn-sar's abuse.  Suppose the stupid, abusive barbarian
thing is an act?  The Hommiks have just captured a man who may very
likely be an associate of Dorian.  Nina is the person with the most
experience with Dorian and possibly other off-worlders.  She pulls the
slave act so she will be ignored while making her observations.  Gunn-sar
acts rude and loud to further draw attention away from her and towards
himself.  Nina's actions are actually signals telling Gunn-sar what
questions to ask and what conclusions she draws.  Finally, she (wrongly)
decides Avon is an enemy and gives Gunn-sar a signal to lure Avon into a
duel.

How does Gunn-sar do this? _By threatening NIna._  He assumed--out of his
own cultural prejudices--that any man would automatically stop another
man from striking a woman, even if the woman was an extremely low status
slave and the man he would have to fight had immediate power over his
life and death.  This implies a culture in which woman had considerable
status and in which abuse was not normally tolerated.

2) So what about Nina's line about being a woman?  Our first impression
of that is a relatively late 20th century context with implications about
Nina's sexuality.  What if, in her language (I assume those translators
mentioned in season 1 are still online somewhere and that not all aliens
speak English--and, even if they did, dialect changes) the phrase "I'm a
woman" meant "I'm a woman"?  What if these people seperated human females
into two groups, women and Seska?

3) And what do we know about the Seska?  It makes much more sense for
them to have been the ruling cast in this society before being overthrown
in a popular revolt, rather than a seperate tribe.  They may have limited
implanting to girls or young women they considered "worthy."  Then an
interesting turn of phrase Pella used caught my attention.  She spoke of
the captured Seska as "us" and "Seska" until she spoke of them having
children.  Then they were "them."  Whether she was lying or telling Vila
the truth, she didn't consider women who had children as her kind.  

What if the Seska used lower status women as surrogate mothers?  What if
they didn't stop there?  Cato was an educated male who was not part of
the overall warrior culture.  What if the only males ruling Seska allowed
to be educated were surgically or otherwise adjusted to limit their
ability to father children?  Or to father them without artificial aid? 
Kind of makes you see why all nonSeska might see the gene bank or
whatever it was called as a symbol of Seska control and want to bomb it.

3) Pella lied to Villa.

There is just no way her version of Hommik child abandonment works. 
Infanticide of _all_ female children is a great way to become extinct. 
Hoping someone who admits they don't usually find the children in time
will come along, raise the survivors, arm them with a deadly weapon you
can't use, train them to use it, and give them every reason to hate you 
and believing that this will be an easier way to ensure the next
generation is born than raising them yourselves. . . . someone with the
IQ of lettuce could come up with a better idea.  

What is important is that, when meeting a _man_, Pella believed she could
gain sympathy and support with her story of _abused women_.  Although the
only men she would have known (besides Dorian), like Gunn-sar when he
tried to provoke Avon, she assumed _abuse_ would turn him against the
Hommiks.

4) What other reasons might the Hommiks have for revolting against the
Seska?  We already have Seska exploitation of nonimplanted women and a
possible program of ruthless eugenics.  What about Dorian?  He admits to
being a total sicko who will do anything, no matter how revoltingly
depraved, for entertainment.  Soolin hadn't been overly abused by him and
didn't realize what a sick puppy he was (not that she may not have
realized he was sick).  So, who was he mistreating?

Another important question: have the Seska ever taken live, Hommik
prisoners?

Soolin might have searched a few "off-limits" areas after Dorian's death,
found some Hommiks and released them.  If Nina knew any of them or if she
had ever had a son captured by the Seska, she might have been more than
ready to assume the worst about Avon.

5) Oh, yes, Nina's part in all this.  Assume Nina, Gunn-sar, and Cato
represented three of the four adult types in Seska/Hommik society, an
umimplanted woman, a normal man, and a possibly surigically tampered
with, educated man.  

Nina may have bought the Seska party line until she reached a point where
she had to interact with Dorian.  He sickened her.  Eventually, she began
to question all Seska society and began working with forces wanting to
overthrow them.  She kept up the pretense right until the end in her
record keeping (possibly throwing in lines meant to demoralize her side).
 Her line about "mere women" obviously didn't reflect the Seska view of
themselves.  She was either referring to the Seska's future without their
implants (demoralizing speech) or was making a reference to nonSeska
which remained unclear because she was cut off.

6) The Hommik initially in charge may have been an extremist (see French
Revolution: Reign of Terror for information on the type) whose dislike of
Seska may have spilled over into other excesses.  Mistreatment of Seska
prisoners, especially once their implants were removed, could have
triggered a backlash. Gunn-sar's removal of him in combat may have been a
much saner act than he makes it sound when he is trying to play stupid
barbarian.  His other fights may also have been saner.

7) What Cato told Avon: mostly the truth except for how he tries to keep
Gunn-sar and Nina out of it.  Gunn-sar would have known whether the young
men were being trained as lookouts or not.  If nothing else, it would
only need one person asking "Hey, how's the lookout job?" and them
replying "Huh?" for the deception to be made known.  The Seska seem to
have controlled technology to maintain their power.  For a previous
servant to use it is bad enough--Pella killed him instantly even though
it alienated her one ally in enemy territory--but for a male who wasn't
even part of the educated caste was intolerable.  Pella obviously didn't
buy Cato's story.  She concentrated her efforts on killing Gunn-sar after
this (proving Gunn-sar's stupid act may have been based on rational fears
of what the Seska would do if they learned there was more to him than
bluster and physical force (something they didn't respect).

8) Avon's kissing Pella.  Avon's sympathy and trust in Pella had been
rapidly diminishing.  He began to realize she saw all nonSeska as
subhuman and might easily decide to kill him or throw him to the wolves
if it improved her chances or if she simply decided he was a problem
(uppity male comes to mind).  He deliberately triggered a confrontation
in circumstances he thought he could survive, playing on Pella's
prejudices against his gender.

In other words, he gambled she would use energy (hopefully already
diminished with everything going on) to 'teach him a lesson' for
overstepping his bounds, something he could survive, and that would
hopefully leave her too weak for a more lethal attack.  He was
deliberately going for her contempt.

9) With Cato's death, Nina realizes she had been wrong about Avon--and
that this error has led to the deaths of her friend and her husband.  She
allows him to escape.  She also concedes this territory.  The war is
over.  

10) Side issue: Kate.  I like the argument that Kate may have been Nina's
daughter, even if by a surragate mother.  If so, who was this little test
tube baby's father? Kate, Cato.  Hmm.

If Nina had lost children in the war and had learned how a son had been
tortured by Dorian just that morning, she may have wanted Kate's survival
very badly at this point and let her go.  Tragically ironic how that
worked out.

Whew.  Ok, I admit the textual basis for the above is a tad weak, but
consider the alternative: taking Power at face value.

Ellynne

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 03:37:38 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Harriet's Pella essay
Message-ID: <f7c77f1.24cc18c2@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 99-07-25 01:54:17 EDT, rilliara@juno.com writes:

<< After seeing this episode, I had to find some excuse for what happened or
 lose all sympathy for Avon and start rooting for Servalan to beat him. 
 The simplest answer, that Avon was obviously still recovering from
 Dorian's attempt to dump all of his personality problems on the crew and
 that Avon's misogyny was really _Dorian's_ misogyny, didn't occur to me
 till later.  THis is all a little twisted, and anyone who feels Power is
 inexcuseable may skip the following excuse. >>

Other than the moment when he tells Pella women will always be inferior to 
men (which can be easily attributed to emotions running high, she did just 
inflict pain on him several times, he wanted to say what would annoy her 
most), Avon's behavior in this episode didn't bother me. He's certainly been 
cold and ruthless in many other episodes. What *did* bother me is Avon not 
noticing the Homite sneaking up behind him after he defeated Cato. It doesn't 
seem in character for Avon.

<snip interesting arguments>

I have no complaints with your arguments, they make sense. But you could say 
Nina is really Travis after a sex-change operation, and I still wouldn't have 
any interest in ever watching "Power" again. It's awful, with bad dialogue, 
an uninteresting story, and full of the cliches Ben Steed dragged across 
Kairos and Moloch. 

The only bright spots are a few of the Vila scenes, and the writing for Dayna 
is pretty good. That's the one kind thing I can say about Steed's writing, in 
Kairos and Power Dayna is very tough and strong, usually standing up to the  
cliched "he-man" characters at just the right moment. And she has some great 
scenes in Moloch. Ben Steed must have had a special fondness for Dayna, she 
is the only female he didn't ignore, grind into submission, or kill. 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 22:11:07 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? (was Re: Avon & Vila)
Message-ID: <379A9C6A.499AC9C6@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Re Blake and control:

Mistral:

> <I'll agree with you he was conflicted about Blake; but
>  what I meant is, Blake gave Avon some input, at least,
>  whereas in Federation, Avon would have felt a cipher.
>  *Some* control is better than *no* control;

<snip>

Gail:

> Well, yes, Blake did allow Avon some input (although Blake usually seemed to
> do what he wanted regardless of the input).  But even so, I think that Avon
> would have found Blake's control much more alarming than the Federation's
> because it was up close and personal.

Perhaps we could agree that they were both disturbing,
albeit in different ways, without trying to weigh the
relative degree at the moment? No sense arguing just
to argue, and I'd like to think about it a bit more.

> I always felt that Blake was using emotional blackmail with Avon, but don't
> ask me to come up with examples.  It would require actually watching some B7!
> <Gail beating her head against the wall in frustration for not finding time
> to do so!!!>  That is certainly an emotional approach.  Does anyone else out
> there think so, too?

I always associate emotional blackmail with things like
'If you cared about me, you would...' I don't think that
everything that appeals to the heart is blackmail, so I
guess we'd have to have specifics to discuss it; because
I don't remember anything I think is that extreme. Er...
sometimes Blake rather throws down the gauntlet, though.
Expresses disbelief at one of Avon's positions that seems
cold to Blake.

I wonder... in Horizon, does anyone think Blake knew that
Avon was overhearing his conversation with Jenna in the
teleport?

?????
Mistral
--
"It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo."
                   --the third Doctor

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 00:29:16 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does?
Message-ID: <379ABCCC.4A0905B@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sally Manton wrote (with some snipping for brevity):

(re Blake possibly controlling Avon)

> By whose (albeit unwilling) choice, may I ask? Blake never
> demanded a personal, emotional  commitment. He had it - oh, yes,
> he knew he had it, and he used it when he needed to (forcing his
> trust on Avon as early as Time Squad). But he never *manipulated*
> Avon into caring about him personally.

Er, shooting yourself in the foot here, aren't you Sally? For the
most part I agree with everything you said, but, if the choice
was unwilling, then Blake was exerting some control. And if
Blake used Avon's attachment, as you say, that is by definition
emotional manipulation.

> Followed by Gail's:
> <I always felt that Blake was using emotional blackmail with Avon,
> but don't ask me to come up with examples. It would require
> actually watching some B7! <Gail beating her head against the wall
> in frustration for not finding time to do so!!!>  That is certainly an
> emotional approach.  Does anyone else out there think so, too?>
>
> No way. Noooooo way. Too right I'm going to ask you to come up
> with examples, if you're going in for Blake-bashing like this.

Now wait. Gail and I have been discussing Avon's greed and control 
issues for over a week, and nobody accused us of Avon-bashing.
I am in two minds about the manipulation issue, but it's possible to
see and mention one flaw in a person without that being bashing them,
surely? Real people, and therefore well-crafted characters, have both 
good and bad characteristics. And people will disagree which are which. 

> In Breakdown, he's willing to let Avon go, without trying in the
> slightest to stop him by either physical means or emotional ties (in
> fact, he's extremely short with Avon, almost pushing him away,
> *until* it's clear that Avon had made his decision).

Pushing could be construed equally manipulative to pulling.

> Blake does not 'manipulate' anyone lightly. He has a gift for it - it's
> part of what he is, along with the generosity of spirit, the
> ruthlessness, the warmth, the calculation...the everything. But he
> uses it sparingly IMO, and not on Avon. He's got far too much
> respect for Avon's intelligence and acuity to try it, even if he was
> tempted, because he knows Avon wouldn't stand for it.

Well, we know he tried it on in Spacefall, because Avon
calls him on it. They'd known each other several months then.

> Avon *may* have felt something like emotional compulsion,
> but surely he's far too honest to try and blame Blake for what *his
> own* feelings are pushing him into.

Absolutely true, IMHO.

<bounce>

Mistral
--
"It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo."
                   --the third Doctor

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 22:14:37 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Return of the Avon/Soolin debate
Message-ID: <379A9D3D.3EAD0083@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Rob Clother wrote:

> Just to put my statement into a bit of context, my remark about Series 3 was
> based on my own initial reaction to Avon.  He's a clever sod, who can come
> up with blistering lines.

Thank you for the clarification ;-)

> At first, I disliked Tarrant and excused Avon --
> but a bit of conditioning c/o the TN opened my eyes to the fact that I was
> straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Oh, dear, and now you've swallowed the giraffe?
My sympathies ;-)

Mistral
--
"It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo."
                   --the third Doctor

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 01:38:56 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
Message-ID: <379ACD1F.FDF72725@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Kathryn Andersen wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 22, 1999 at 11:21:50PM -0700, mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
> >
> > As to her name, Sue Lynn is also common in the US,
> > and isn't AFAIK particular to any ethnic group.
>
> That would be fine except for the fact that it's spelt "Soolin".

Thanks, I'd have never figured that out ;-)  My point was the
name could have come from anywhere (including the Chinese,
as Ellynne mentioned), since several names seem to have mutated
down the centuries to the time of the show.

> As for Avon and Soolin getting together, I just don't see it at all.
> Whether or not one is applying the argument that they are alike and
> that like attracts like; that they understand each other and therefore
> would get on -- seems completely irrelevant to me.  The thing is,
> there ain't no *spark*.  I can see them working absolutely smoothly as
> collegues, and maybe even growing towards friendship, but falling in
> love? - not on your life!

I suppose that I don't think there has to be any *spark* at
the point we're viewing them at. The spark is attraction; but
the pattern isn't always attraction>romance>love>commitment,
sometimes it's commitment/friendship>love>attraction>romance.
It's a rarer pattern, but occurs IRL. Love isn't always a roller-
coaster; sometimes its a comfy sweater. (Complete with
sequins and silver studs?)

> Perhaps they are too alike.  Because I think both of them have been
> hurt so much and are so closed and absolutely determined not to be
> vulnerable, that *neither* of them is going to be able to crack the
> armour of the other.  Both of them need someone who is (a) supportive,
> (b) willing to be vulnerable *first* and (c) understanding and
> forgiving.

We must have a very different read of Soolin; I think
her capable of all three (in order c-a-b); and while Avon
couldn't initiate them, he could reciprocate them once he
felt understood and supported. Were the latter not the case,
you certainly couldn't have A/anybody.

Cheers,
Mistral
--
"It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo."
                   --the third Doctor

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:32:55 +0100
From: "David A McIntee" <master@sol.co.uk>
To: "Lisa Williams" <lcw@dallas.net>, <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Good news!
Message-Id: <199907251513.QAA29226@gnasher.sol.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

----------
> From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
> 
> >The old favourites will replace American classics such as Ironside and
UFO
> >at off-peak periods in the afternoons and at weekends.
> 
> Since when did UFO become an *American* classic?

I wondered that myself - I'm just quoting what the report said...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:07:45 +0100
From: "Jennifer Beavan" <j.beavan@btinternet.com>
To: "B7 List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does?
Message-ID: <005e01bed6c0$7a7f98c0$205dac3e@net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Mistral wrote

> Now wait. Gail and I have been discussing Avon's greed and control
> issues for over a week, and nobody accused us of Avon-bashing.

Yes, but you've been discussing Avon using examples from canon. Saying a
character has a particulat trait, without being able to back this up with
evidence means that you can't take the statement seriously and therefore
can't argue for or against.

> > In Breakdown, he's willing to let Avon go, without trying in the
> > slightest to stop him by either physical means or emotional ties (in
> > fact, he's extremely short with Avon, almost pushing him away,
> > *until* it's clear that Avon had made his decision).

> Pushing could be construed equally manipulative to pulling.

Which means that you are defining anything Blake does as manipulation -
damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

> Well, we know he tried it on in Spacefall, because Avon
> calls him on it. They'd known each other several months then.

That Avon perceived Blake's words/actions as manipulation doesn't mean they
were! Just that Avon didn't have the guts to face up to why he kept doing
what Blake wanted and needed to blame Blake for his own weakness!

Jennifer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:42:23 +0100
From: S Riaz <t.riaz@virgin.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Blake the manipulator
Message-ID: <379B84BF.B7867406@virgin.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

How nice to see Blake defended against the charge of manipulation always
levelled against him.  I have to agree that I fail to see how Blake
really manipulated Avon so mercilessly.   And I have to agree that I
think they actually liked each other - that is, it was reciprocated.
Avon liked Blake too.

If, as so many Blake bashers say, Avon really hated Blake and only
wanted the Liberator, etc.  why did his behaviour always say
otherwise?   Star One, Terminal, Gauda Prime, are all indications that
Avon was motivated by what Blake meant to him.   How could Blake have
manipulated him into Terminal?   Avon went to Terminal just to see
whether Blake was there - he wasn't really interested in any 'deal'.
One look at his face when Servalan said he was dead spoke volumes.  If
she didn't know what his weakness was before, she knew it then - and so
did the rest of the crew.

By the way, I have a question.  Although I have watched B7 many, many,
many, many, many times (!), I have never really understood how the
Alpha, etc classifications was explained.  I have always understood in
fan-fic that Vila was a Delta, Gan a Gamma and the other Earth members
Alpha.   I seem to recall Vila being spoken of a Delta in one episode
and Blake being shown as an Alpha at his trial (as was Travis?).
However, why do we assume about the others?  Am I missing something, or
was it just written in varying stories so much that we've all accepted
it as true?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:59:55 EST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Return of the Avon/Soolin debate
Message-ID: <19990725225955.83010.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: Mac4781@aol.com
>  She doesn't trust him any further than she can throw him.

And, unless Rob thinks otherwise, I doubt that any member of the crew 
(barring, perhaps, Tarrant) could lift Avon to try <smile>

>At any rate, *I*  don't want to have her babies, and I suspect >Joanne 
>doesn't either, and we both agree with your view of little >chance for 
>Soolin/Avon. :)

Wrong gender to do the engendering, apart from any other considerations 
(sexuality, temperament, etc, etc). If Rob wants Soolin for himself that 
badly <grin> I'm more than prepared to let him! I just wonder who he'll have 
to fight for the fair lady's hand.

Regards
Joanne
(Here comes the rain again...)


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:03:33 EST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
Message-ID: <19990725230333.26608.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: mistral@ptinet.net
>sometimes its a comfy sweater. (Complete with sequins and silver >studs?)

It's Monday morning, and Mistral reminds me of some of the horrors that lurk 
in the back of Avon's wardrobe (see Deathwatch in particular). Thank you 
very much! <grin>

Regards
Joanne


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 16:17:52 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does?
Message-ID: <379B9B20.1C0F4753@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jennifer Beavan wrote:

> Mistral wrote
>
> > Now wait. Gail and I have been discussing Avon's greed and control
> > issues for over a week, and nobody accused us of Avon-bashing.
>
> Yes, but you've been discussing Avon using examples from canon. Saying a
> character has a particulat trait, without being able to back this up with
> evidence means that you can't take the statement seriously and therefore
> can't argue for or against.

Not entirely true. We've been discussing Avon to a certain extent
based on what we *perceive as his personality type*, and some
*extrapolation* about how he'd feel about some *assumptions*
we've made about Federation society. Every character discussion
on the lyst is full of such inferences, assumptions, and extrapolations.
Otherwise, there's nothing to discuss.

As was pointed out last week, you can build an impression of
a character by getting an overall sense from watching the eps,
as well as piecing it together from specifics. I agree, that's pretty
much impossible to debate, and I think it's completely legitimate
to ask for specific examples. But when Gail says 'I felt...does
anyone agree?', the appropriate answer seems to me to be
'yes' or 'no' or 'give examples', not 'you Blake-basher, you'.

> > Pushing could be construed equally manipulative to pulling.
>
> Which means that you are defining anything Blake does as manipulation -
> damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

*I'm* not defining anything at all. I haven't said that I find
Blake manipulative; I've quite clearly said I'm in two minds
about it. But throwing a switch 'on' or 'off' is still throwing
a switch--manipulating it. The alternative is to leave it alone.
Quite apart from that, even if I consider a specific incident
manipulation, that wouldn't make the person manipulative;
I'd need to see a pattern.

> > Well, we know he tried it on in Spacefall, because Avon
> > calls him on it. They'd known each other several months then.
>
> That Avon perceived Blake's words/actions as manipulation doesn't mean they
> were! Just that Avon didn't have the guts to face up to why he kept doing
> what Blake wanted and needed to blame Blake for his own weakness!

Since Spacefall is the *first* possible example we see of it, there's
no indication that at this point Avon *kept* doing what Blake wanted;
and you've taken my remark out of context, as I was responding to
Sally's assertion Blake wouldn't try it because Avon wouldn't put up
with it.

I've no interest at all in discussing whether Blake was manipulative
or not; that seems to me to depend on your definition of manipulation,
about which it's unlikely to reach consensus; however, saying you
perceive a character to have a certain flaw does not IMHO constitute
bashing. In my book it's far preferable to disagree with someone's
opinions than it is to resort to name-calling and personal attacks.

Just IMHO,
Mistral
--
"It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo."
                   --the third Doctor

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 16:22:57 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
Message-ID: <379B9C50.BD744659@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Joanne MacQueen wrote:

> >From: mistral@ptinet.net
> >sometimes its a comfy sweater. (Complete with sequins and silver >studs?)
>
> It's Monday morning, and Mistral reminds me of some of the horrors that lurk
> in the back of Avon's wardrobe (see Deathwatch in particular). Thank you
> very much! <grin>

What? You don't like the Deathwatch jacket? <g> Oooooh, but
it's the best one!!! So very Avon. So expressive of his personality.
So pompous, yet so ridiculous. The worst thing about losing the
Liberator was that jacket going with it!!!

<Mistral runs for cover>
<snicker>
???????
--
"It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo."
                   --the third Doctor

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:41:07 EST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin
Message-ID: <19990725234107.39412.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: the Galactic Yo-yo (aka Mistral) <grin>
><Mistral runs for cover>
><snicker>

<looks at depleted stock of rotten tomatoes, and decides to save them for 
another day>

Regards
Joanne


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 04:54:56 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Greedy is as greedy does?
Message-ID: <19990519.101007.9198.0.Rilliara@juno.com>

On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:22:42 EDT SugarHIB7@aol.com writes:
>In a message dated 7/24/99 10:54:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
>rilliara@juno.com writes:
>
><< Avon's problem is he _didn't_ decide to like Blake, he just likes 
>him. 
>
>Nice distinction.
>
>
> <<For most people, not a problem, but it is for him.  Being 
>emotionally
> attached to Avon is something he perceives as threatening. >>
>
>Hi !
>
>I really enjoyed this carefully thought out post, but I was wondering 
>if the 
>name above shouldn't have been Blake (instead of Avon).  If you truly 
>do see 
>Blake feeling threatened in this way, I'd be fascinated to hear more.

What I meant was "To Avon, being attached is something he perceives as
threatening."  Sorry.

Ellynne

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 03:33:11 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject:  Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? Part One
Message-ID: <19990726103318.38282.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Mistral wrote:

Er, shooting yourself in the foot here, aren't you Sally?

Does sound like it, but nup (I admitted I was wrong in a post two
months ago. You don't get two admissions within the same decade
<g>). For two reasons:

As I said, Blake never asked for, not did anything deliberately, to
get Avon's emotional commitment. He asked for practical help, the
use of Avon’s skills and strengths in his cause, and possibly enough
trust to feel he wouldn’t get stabbed in the back for no good reason.
The depth of the commitment he got was a unexpected and veeerrry
reluctantly-given gift. What was he supposed to do, throw it back in Avon's 
face?

Yes, he used Avon's loyalty when he had to, but not to push
caring or emotion on Avon (he ain't that dumb). In Time Squad,
he pushed his own trust (which is different from forcing Avon to
trust him BTW) on Avon to prove - to Avon and the others - that
Avon could be trusted with their lives (albeit at this early stage only if 
Avon wasn't endangered himself.) Given what had happened
in Cygnus Alpha, it was something Jenna at least needed to see.

<Now wait. Gail and I have been discussing Avon's greed and
control issues for over a week, and nobody accused us of Avon-bashing.>

True, and if Gail hadn't *said* she had no proof <g>, I'd have
left the word out (would still probably have argued the point though).
Maybe I came across a bit tetchy (if so, Gail, I apologise) but
for me, it's bashing where blanket statements are made where
there's no proof in the series. As Jennifer said, simply saying
'he’s an emotional blackmailer even if there's no evidence of
it' is  doesn't leave a lot of room for discussion. If someone wants to give 
me *reasons* why it's emotional blackmail to show respect for Avon's mind 
and ideas, even if there's no examples,
again, it's not bashing (I'll then argue it's *wrong* however <g>)

<I am in two minds about the manipulation issue, but it's possible to
see and mention one flaw in a person without that being bashing them,
surely? Real people, and therefore well-crafted characters, have both
good and bad characteristics. And people will disagree which are which.>

I see plenty of flaws in both of them (part of the reason I love them -
I don't care for 'nice' characters much, and *no one* could call
My Heroes nice) but not this. But how can we discuss it if it's
just to be laid down as 'well it's there, even though there's
not a skerrik of proof?'

<Pushing could be construed equally manipulative to pulling.>

But in that case, *every move* Blake makes is damned as
manipulative. What's the poor man to do? Stop breathing? Errr...
no, dying on Avon would probably count as well. (Now this is
discussion, not bashing...you took my example and gave your own
view.)

<Well, we know he tried it on in Spacefall, because Avon calls
him on it. They'd known each other several months then.>

No, we know Avon called it manipulation...given that the verbal
games and sparring started two minutes after *meeting* each other,
and has probably been going on for the several months (and we
missed it all (sob) where’s Avon-cam when I want it) I'm not sure
even *Avon* believed this one, but it's just what he'd say.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #229
**************************************