From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #311 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/311 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 311 Today's Topics: [B7L] Avon's motivation (Re: Servalan motivation) Re: [B7L] Avon's motivation (Re: Servalan motivation) [B7L] Project Avalon vs. Rumours of Death [B7L] The Quibell Abduction Re: [B7L] Project Avalon vs. Rumours of Death [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #310 [B7L] B7 at Hogwarts' [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #310 Re: [B7L] Avalon/Rumours/Blake-o-phile stuff Re: [B7L] Project Avalon vs. Rumours of Death [B7L] Project Avalon vs. Rumours of Death [B7L] More squashing on the ladder... Re: [B7L] Avon's motivation RE: [B7L] Project Avalon vs. Rumours of Death Re: [B7L] More squashing on the ladder... Re: [B7L] More squashing on the ladder... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:57:50 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Avon's motivation (Re: Servalan motivation) Message-ID: <199911030758_MC2-8B80-F8B0@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Calle wrote: >Are you sure, and if so why? I think that Avon > was more than smart enough to see that above >a certain point money is just a means to power, > and that power was what he was really after. No, safety. I never detected an interest in power over anything but his own life. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: 03 Nov 1999 14:12:46 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's motivation (Re: Servalan motivation) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >>>>> "Harriet" == Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> writes: > No, safety. I never detected an interest in power over anything but his > own life. Yes, exactly. He must get power to get power over his own life. To get free from the Federation, rather a lot of power would be necessary. At first, he thought he could get it by scamming the Federation's banking system, later he thought he'd get it by controlling the Liberator. -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se Maintainer of the Blake's 7 mailing list. Mail for info. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:34:24 +0200 (EET) From: Kai V Karmanheimo To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Project Avalon vs. Rumours of Death Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Just making a late contribution to the "Project Avalon" vs. "Rumours of Death" debate. I like both of these episodes very much, but here are a few reasons why I like one of them better : Both episodes offer a glimpse at the other resistance forces fighting the Federation. However, in "Project Avalon" the best we get is Avalon reciting "The Beginners Guide to Being a Revolutionary" while Travis drools over her. In "Rumours of Death", on the other hand, the rebel forces are portrayed as a kill happy bunch who are willing to kill their oppressors and kick their corpses, but have little of what to do beyond that, their leader seeming to be just as ruthless and scheming as Servalan and probably intending to replace her on the throne (or rule through her "People's Council"). With everyone (including Blake) busy with the task of destroying the Federation, there isn't much talk about the far more complex question of what to do once the primary task is accomplished. To me "Rumours of Death" at least seems to imply that those out to replace the current tyrants may turn out to be just as bad as they are. I particularly like the scene where the rebels invade the palace with some of them dressed as Federation troopers; it's difficult tell who the rebels and who the real troopers are (and later when they are clearing off the bodies, impossible) and most kills could well be black-on-black. There is not much difference between the good guys and the bad guys when they are all dead guys anyway. As a rule, I find the first and second season version of Servalan more interesting than the third season variant. One of the problems with the third season was that Servalan practically came to personify the Federation, rather than being the kind of scheming, upward-mobile but ultimately expandable cog in the machinery she was during the first two seasons. However, "Rumours" is the rare exception. It is fact that we see (or at least seem to see) her, for once, really lose her nerve and ruthless drive that I find important (rather than the cheap sadism of having her roughed up and chained to that "old wall"). It is one of Servalan's best moments and adds that extra millimetre of character depth. Though the "Project Avalon" Servalan is delicious, I find "Rumours" the more important moment. In "Project Avalon" the crew foil Travis' plan and Blake both completes his original mission of getting Avalon to safety and as a bonus gets to publicly humiliate Travis and Servalan (Travis' tiptoe walk and last second dive make for an excellent scene). In "Rumours" Avon, by completing his mission of revenge, ends up doing and feeling just the opposite of what he wanted, and as a bonus saves his worst enemy from probable death while ruining a slim but real chance of defeating the Federation. I find the latter plot much more original and appealing. Finally, both episode begin their climax from a situation where the viewer knows more than the characters, i.e. we know that Avalon is the real danger (though not how), and we know that Anna is Sula and can guess that she is also Bartolomew. The trick is seeing how the characters are put through their paces, how the situations are resolved. But while "Project" is heading towards a desired (happy) ending (it's highly unlikely that they would wipe out the entire crew just nine episodes into the series), "Rumours" gets additional weight by heading inexorably towards tragedy, the way you don't want it to go. It's like a Greek tragedy : you know the story but can't stop it from running its course. And the actual execution : in all its theatricality, its melodrama, its blatant manipulation and sometimes contrived language, the final 10-minute of "Rumours of Death" packs more emotional punch than the in itself well-handled ending of "Project Avalon". Or perhaps I'm just biased towards unhappy endings. So for what it's worth, I think "Rumours of Death" should remain above "Project Avalon". Kai Karmanheimo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:26:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List cc: Freedom City Subject: [B7L] The Quibell Abduction Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII The Quibell Abduction is just back from the copy shop. Price UK 5 pounds, Eur 5.70, USA 6.50 pounds or $11 cash, Aus/NZ 6.80 pounds This is a genzine focussing on Cally and Avon. It's a cracking good adventure story with an intelligent and dangerous Cally. It also has good science and a really unusual alien species. Cheques should be payable to Judith Proctor, 28 Diprose rd, Corfe Mullen, Wimborne, Dorset, BH21 3QY. Judith PS. I'll be taking copies to Eclecticon. PPS. I'll sort out Aus $ prices via Pat Fenech when I'm back from Eclecticon. If I forget - con-lag being what it is - remind me. -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 22:23:26 -0000 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Project Avalon vs. Rumours of Death Message-ID: <00e901bf264a$504e3000$78efabc3@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kai wrote another excellent post, this time on the above squash match. An interesting issue he raised was, what would happen once the Federation was destroyed ? We know that Avon thought Blake would be forced to stay on Earth to run the revolution, and presumably take over running things (so that Avon could get the Liberator). Nobody else would be able to hold the various factions together. We might imagine that it would be to great a task for Blake alone, and he would be forced to form a team, with turncoats like Sula (nee Bartolomew - aka Anna Grant), fellow idealists like Avalon, inept governors from the outer worlds etc etc, to rule with him. Given that under great stress, Blake's character judgement can be somewhat deficient (I'm thinking the episode Blake here), and he will be supported by self serving civil servants and operating in a system where the real power lies with the people who programmed Central Control (presumed dead), what sort of administration would we expect ? More ruthless people (eg Servalan) would rebuild the old corrupt system with amazing speed, even after the sort of major defeat that Blake could only dream of (eg the galactic war - the revolution was never intended to kill that many troopers or destroy that much of the fabric of society). Blake's idealistic regime would have to withstand pressure from groups attempting to do just that, albeit without the official stamp of the Federation. And of course, what of the crew. Nowhere does it suggest that Avon did not attempt fraud, that Vila was not a thief, that Jenna was not a smuggler, that Gan did not kill a man. Would Blake re-instate their sentences, or quash their convictions because they were lucky enough to escape and risk destroying the entire rule of law ? But don't worry, that inherent conflict of "Why ?" is, for me, part of the show's appeal. We do know from our own history that revolution, struggle against oppression and civil war can have distinct positive benefits. So the question is, could Blake hold it all together after the revolution is won ? And is the risk that he might not be worth the risk associated with the total destruction of the Federation ? Perhaps the best plan was the original plan, where individual worlds declare independence from the Federation, and the Federation is dissolved, rather than destroyed. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 22:54:32 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #310 Message-ID: <38211F99.741F@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Orac (the episode) tells us that Ensor went into hiding forty years > previously, not thirty. (There is some contradiction in other episodes, > Ensor jnr talking abut 'thirty years of independence' to Maryatt in > Deliverance, and Avon telling Dorian that Ensor spent the last twenty years > of his life in hiding. I tend to take Orac as the definitive episode in > this regard, though, since the cited 40-year span is correlated with other > events in Ensor's life history). Perhaps they are all correct, in a given sense. Ensor may have, 40 years prior to Orac, disappeared from records (thanks to Tariel cell access) without actually going anywhere. In a sense, going into hiding, while remaining in view. After ten years of this, he felt too constrained, and left Federation territory... gaining his freedom 30 years before Orac. After 10 years of moving around, he realized there was a serious hunt for him and went into hiding for real, going to ground 20 years b.O. Uh, which Avon found out about from the diary Ensor recorded on Orac? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 23:06:37 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] B7 at Hogwarts' Message-ID: <3821226E.65EC@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nicola asks: > > How would the B7 crew have been distributed? Gan and Travis (and Zen!) are > Hufflepuffs, I think. Perhaps Travis could be re-sorted into Slytherin with > appropriate ceremony after selling out to the Andromedans. Surely Blake and > Tarrant would have been standard-bearers for Gryffindor (Tarrant as Head > Boy, while Deeter was Captain of Quidditch); Dayna probably belongs there as > well. And surely Servalan was a Slytherin. Ravenclaw might claim Soolin and > Avon (for wit, at least, if not for wit and learning). But Jenna? Vila? > Cally? Blake would have ben a Head Boy as well, I think. Jenna, Vila and Cally are remarkable for their loyalty, IMHO, so I might well put them in Hufflepuff. Particularily Cally-- while she is unquestionably brave, there is the business about 'not wanting to be alone'. Somehow, I think of the Hufflepuff's as being 'people persons', althought that isn't clearly stated. Soolin and Avon have wit, but they also are willing to do what it takes to win, making them possible as Slytherins. If you read between the lines, the Houses aren't at all clear cut. Hufflepuffs were pretty narrowminded when it came to Harry in book 2... this from the 'nice' house. Snape is a Slytherin, but he is *very* loyal to his House (yet loyalty is the Hufflepuff trait), and he has a keen sense of duty (his protection of Harry despite his dislike). One can argue against expectations, certainly. Vila has at least as much courage as Neville Longbottom, doesn't he? Blake has courage, but would loyalty to a cause put him in Hufflepuff, or his knowlege of History and Physics place him in Ravenclaw? The business with Harry and the Sorting hat suggests personal choice is a large part of placement. (I placed myself in Slytherin, not because I believe that the ends justifies the means, but because, among other things, I'd rather be the most idealistic person in my House than the least idealistic.) Avon would surely choose Ravenclaw or Slytherin over Gryffindor. Blake would likely perfer Griffindor for leadership training. And Vila would be in Slytherin because they have the most pocke tmoney to go mysteriously missing while Vila drinks butterbeer. --Avona, feeling rather silly tonight. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 23:09:39 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #310 Message-ID: <38212324.408B@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Are you sure, and if so why? I think that Avon was more than smart > enough to see that above a certain point money is just a means to > power, and that power was what he was really after. > -- > Calle Dybedahl Only insofar as the power led to freedom. He wasn't interested in the responsibilities that go with power (responsibilities he was well aware of, since he was constantly reminding Blake of them). He simply wanted power over his *own* life. --Avona ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 01:45:22 PST From: "Rob Clother" To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avalon/Rumours/Blake-o-phile stuff Message-ID: <19991104094522.84645.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Andrew: >We know that Avon thought Blake would be forced to stay on Earth to run the >revolution, and presumably take over running things (so that Avon could get >the Liberator). Nobody else would be able to hold the various factions >together. There's a consistent thread of opinion among most Blake-o-philes that says Roj would not have taken over the task of running things. He would simply have done whatever was necessary to shatter the Federation, and then leave it to others to build a workable system from the ground up. >We might imagine that it would be to great a task for Blake alone, and he >would be forced to form a team... to rule with him. You could say his absence after Star One was one of the most telltale insights into Blake's character. You can imagine him recovering slowly on some far-off, out of the way planet -- exhausted, traumatised, and hoping against hope that his part is played out and it really is all over. See, although Blake was a crusader, he was, in some ways, a reluctant hero. If there was one thing that ran deeper than his hatred of the Federation, it seems to be his love for his family. This is referred to in "The Way Back", and is hinted at several times in the canon. His obvious affection for both Inga and Ushton is possibly the best example [Anyone think of any others?]. It's not just the direct references he makes, though. His broad knowledge of fields as diverse as matter transference and American history [even if he got the details slightly wrong] suggests someone whose upbringing was stimulating and well-rounded. More than that, everything about him suggests someone who is comfortable working closely with a large team -- and growing up as part of a large, happy extended family is the most likely way for him to have acquired such effortless skill. Who knows? Maybe Blake went looking for Inga after Star One. Maybe he thought he could put his revolutionary past behind him and move on to what he really wanted out of his life. You can only imagine how badly his heart would have been broken when the Federation rose out of the ashes, and his personal dreams were snatched away from him. You could say that his vision of his own future sustained him aboard the Liberator, and prevented him from becoming hard, cynical and unsympathetic. It also explained why he never responded to any of Jenna's advances. Whatever her charms, she could not offer Blake what he wanted, and so she didn't have a cat in Hell's chances of getting *that* close to him. The shattered dreams would explain the change that came over Blake by the end of the series. By then, he was a broken man -- he admitted as much to Tarrant, when he said that most of what had happened to him wasn't on Earth. Which is why the following remark is both accurate and a little unfair: >Given that under great stress, Blake's character judgement can be somewhat >deficient (I'm thinking the episode Blake here) According to my model of Blake, you're thinking of a very different person to the Blake from before Star One. A lot of his humanity had been sucked out of him by the end of the canon. -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 09:57:23 +0000 From: Una McCormack To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Project Avalon vs. Rumours of Death Message-ID: <38215883.5EE86E0A@q-research.connectfree.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kai V Karmanheimo wrote: > > Hello > > Just making a late contribution to the "Project Avalon" vs. "Rumours of > Death" debate. I like both of these episodes very much, but here are a few > reasons why I like one of them better : > Terrific post, Kai. Una ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 02:23:07 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Project Avalon vs. Rumours of Death Message-ID: <19991104102312.25819.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Andrew wrote: The revolution, yes. Whatever came afterwards (if he survived - something I don't know if he even thought about) is far more doubtful. Look at his lack of enthusiasm for any sort of power - his reaction to Avon's suggestion is a distinctly reluctant "if there's no other way", and the whispered "there's no hurry"; even under Ven Glynd's mind control in Voice, he pushes the actual positions of power at Le Grand and Shivan. Given the chance of taking over the Federation (via Star One) he doesn't even muster a flicker of interest, his only thought a worry about the possibility of corruption of power - he's idealistic; he ain't stupid. I agree that what Blake probably had in mind was every world in control of itself, for itself (which was the purpose of destroying Control/Star One, after all) and that he would be part of the battle against the Federation on Earth itself. I really cannot see him agreeing to any plan of even a benevolent regime to take the Federation's place. And after all, would not the destruction that would have crippled the Federation make any subsequent galactic government just as impossible? Blake would have known that even as he planned it (and possibly welcomed the fact). As for who was to run Earth..? While he can be an arrogant, even egoistic bastard on occasion, he's also very bright, and far more perceptive and pragmatic than he's given credit for a lot of the time. I do think he'd make a decent fist of government if he absolutely had to, but I can easier see him point-blank refusing to take a hand in it (*especially* after Voice from the Past, and the nasty doubts it must have raised about his own freedom of thought...) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 02:20:51 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] More squashing on the ladder... Message-ID: <19991104102052.45764.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Pressure Point above Warlord...all the reasons I've already given for Pressure Point's utter wonderfulness. Also, Travis & Kasabi are *much* more interesting than Zukan and the egregious Zeeona. Hostage above Orac...just for inspiring the Lovett story The Road to Hell. Redemption above Orac...Blake/Avon par excellence (the opening salvo is glorious, and that very last line...), Blake giving lip to Authority, Authority giving him what-for, Roy Evans' slave - sad, dignified, quietly appealing...Jenna cuddling up to Avon in the cell, 'have you considered amputation?'...the plot may not be the best, but it dressed up gloriously, starting the (IMHO-only) best season off with a bang. Orac is good, but not in the same league. Killer over Weapon. I thought I already proved this to my satisfaction (if no one else's?) And now that Una's had her glass of whatever... Let's make it a Mobius ladder, then, let Animals move up one more spot... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 02:25:35 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's motivation Message-ID: <19991104102536.82166.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Calle and Harriet: Yes and no IMHO. Yes, Avon wanted power over his own life in the form of his individual freedom and safety (and that of the few people he cares about), but he certainly would *not* want to extend that to power - or authority - over anyone else. At all. In fact, I think he loathes the idea (he wants the freedom the Liberator will give, but would have preferred not to have to command a crew. Not reasonable, no, but he's not nearly as logical a creature as he likes to think he is) Calle is right - given his circumstances, he needs power to get his freedom. But then he still fights rather hard to *avoid* what power is being pushed at him (witness the way the 3rd season crew have to push him out in front of them at the gunpoint of *their* total unfitness for the job). Making for a rather interesting conflict of interest. Look at his desultory comments in favour of controlling Star One instead of destroying it. There was all the power (and safety) anyone could want...but unless Blake was ready to take on the *real* position of power and authority, Avon didn't really want it. What Avon wanted (all right, what Avon thought he wanted) was some sort of herculanium wall he could put up between himself and his own, and the rest of the galaxy. The money, the Liberator, the dubious security of Xenon base...whatever. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 08:36:14 +0100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: RE: [B7L] Project Avalon vs. Rumours of Death Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F89FA5D@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Andrew wrote: > We might imagine that it would be to great a task for Blake > alone, and he > would be forced to form a team, with turncoats like Sula (nee > Bartolomew - > aka Anna Grant), fellow idealists like Avalon, inept > governors from the > outer worlds etc etc, to rule with him. What you describe here sounds like most of governments we have here today. And that most empathically includes the governments of modern and free western countries such as the ones we happen to be living in. No government is ever totally honest, or free of corrupt or simply inept people. Far more important is wether or not a government is willing to trust its citizens and protect their freedom. The ones that don't trust their citizens usually wind up being extremely oppressive no matter how well organized *and* well intentioned they are. Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 10:48:11 +0000 From: Una McCormack To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] More squashing on the ladder... Message-ID: <3821646B.8BB684B8@q-research.connectfree.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > And now that Una's had her glass of whatever... > Let's make it a Mobius ladder, then, let Animals move up one > more spot... Having finished my drink leaves me handily armed... Una ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:30:26 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] More squashing on the ladder... Message-ID: <19991104.093227.10262.4.Rilliara@juno.com> On Thu, 04 Nov 1999 02:20:51 PST "Sally Manton" writes: > >Killer over Weapon. I thought I already proved this to my >satisfaction (if no one else's?) > No argument here, but I just never warmed to the characters in Weapon. Actually, 'never warmed' is putting it kindly for most of them. Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #311 **************************************