From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #34 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/34 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 34 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Social engineering RE: [B7L] The Woman in B7 Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon Re: [B7L] Power/The Woman in B7 Re: [B7L] Avon disagrees Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon [B7L] Re: Sprechen Sie Deutsch? Re: [B7L] Re: Sprechen Sie Deutsch? [B7L] Now we know... Re: [B7L] Social engineering Re: [B7L] Now we know... Re: [B7L] Social engineering Re: [B7L] Social engineering Re: [B7L] Trolling 101 Re: [B7L] Trolling 101 [B7L] Re: Social engineering [B7L] Re: Women, B7 and Avon [B7L] Responding to the Message [B7L] Nuisance Re: [B7L] sloganeering Re: [B7L] Trolling 101 Fwd: The Men in Blake's 7 (was Re: [B7L] The Morrigan in B7) Re: The Men in Blake's 7 (was Re: [B7L] The Morrigan in B7) Re: [B7L] Re: Sprechen Sie Deutsch? Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7 RE: [B7L] Nuisance Re: [B7L] Nuisance Re: [B7L] Social engineering Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon Re: [B7L] Social engineering Re: [B7L] Nuisance Re: [B7L] Nuisance Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7 [B7L] Mutoids Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon Re: [B7L] Responding to the Message Re: [B7L] Mutoids Re: [B7L] sloganeering ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:51:38 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Social engineering Message-ID: <36A25B6A.EA@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit s.thompson8@genie.com wrote: Sarah, I like your take on the creche, aka > ...hinted at in canonical B7: communal child-rearing by professionals. > You can hardly get more sexually repressive than > 19th-C. China, a country that physically crippled nearly half its population > to keep them in their place; This practice continued into the 20th century. My mother, a military civilian (oxymoron?) all during WWII, was sent to the Pacific Theater and China at the close of the war and among her "collected war stories" were tales of unbinding the women's feet. However, I doubt that half the population was crippled. In Victorian England, only the rich ladies fainted from wearing tight corsets - while the poor scullery maids and washerwomen wore loose shifts that enabled them to physically toil all the long day. Yet, we think of all Victorian women fainting. So too in China, the rich "kept women" were cripples, but the huge majority of Chinese were always peasants, toiling in the fields. The women were slogging about - big footed - in rice paddies all the long day. > The original referent of the expression "eminence grise" (which I may well have misspelled as I > don't know French very well) was male, and this seems to be more or less the > role Avon had in mind for himself when he went in search of Blake in "Blake." But what does it mean? Rule thru grey? gristle? greasy? Postulating Pat P ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:46:41 -0000 From: Louise Rutter To: "'B7 Lysator'" Subject: RE: [B7L] The Woman in B7 Message-ID: <01BE426B.6291AA80@host5-171-251-95.btinternet.com> SS wrote: >What do you think of my analysis on "Power"? I think your analysis of what Steed was trying to say was correct. I think Steed was wrong. Not 100% wrong, of course, I don't think many people would disagree that if all men fought all women, both sides would lose. But he was wrong in the details of how men and women should interact. I don't think that last exchange between Avon and Pella had anything to do with sex at all - Avon would have shot anyone who tried to kill him, and the fact that Pella was female was irrelevant. Pella accuses Avon of shooting her because men are intrinsically violent; Avon simply points out that if she resorts to the use of violence, she can hardly be surprised when she gets a violent response. That applies to anyone of either sex. Louise ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:42:26 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon Message-ID: <36A24B32.462C@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SupeStud00@aol.com wrote: > << Women *are* different from men, not just > physically, but psychologically >> > And spiritually. This is the kind of "hit and run" response that has everyone mad at you. You must support your statement with canon scenes from the series that show how women differ spiritutally. You might quote Cally's response to a statement and compare it with that of Travis, for instance. Pat P ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:31:12 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: pussnboots@geocities.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/17/99 5:50:30 PM EST, pussnboots@geocities.com writes: << << Women *are* different from men, not just > physically, but psychologically >> > And spiritually. This is the kind of "hit and run" response that has everyone mad at you. You must support your statement with canon scenes from the series that show how women differ spiritutally. You might quote Cally's response to a statement and compare it with that of Travis, for instance. >> Actually, I wasn't referring much to the series. But thankfs for the advice. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:41:04 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: Louise.Rutter@btinternet.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Power/The Woman in B7 Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/17/99 5:53:40 PM EST, Louise.Rutter@btinternet.com writes: << SS wrote: >What do you think of my analysis on "Power"? <> I believe Steed was saying that the interaction of men and women should be such as we say in the Hommiks camp. Very subservient, homebound supportive females and hunter-gatherer men. Interesting that the Hommiks were at least surviving better than the Seska. I think he was, successfuly, showing that when there is order to the male/female dynamic, and eah knows his/her purpose and place, the entire machine is more efficint. << I don't think that last exchange between Avon and Pella had anything to do with sex at all - Avon would have shot anyone who tried to kill him, and the fact that Pella was female was irrelevant. Pella accuses Avon of shooting her because men are intrinsically violent; Avon simply points out that if she resorts to the use of violence, she can hardly be surprised when she gets a violent response. That applies to anyone of either sex. >> Agreed, though I think a little more can be read into it. I think Steed was trying to use Avon to say that there is a little of Avon in all men. And a ittle of Pella in all women. That if women push men to a certain point, it is illogical for them to expect males to remain "gentlemanly" for lack of a better word. I think its a real statement on the dual nature of the woman's liberation movement. About wanting the freedom and equality to join man's world fully, but still wanting to keep the fringe benefits (having the door held open, being the first off a sinking ship, etc.) I think was Avon was essentially saying, you won't get it both ways, sister (and I mean no sexual inneuendo by that statement.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:42:00 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: pussnboots@geocities.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon disagrees Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/17/99 5:54:57 PM EST, pussnboots@geocities.com writes: << This, of course, is why - when Vila and Avon got at it we all enjoy it so much. For when it comes to wit, they are worthy opponents. :) BTW, wit is always welcome on this list, no matter what the subject matter. >> LOL!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:39:44 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon Message-ID: <36A24A90.7A1B@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathryn Andersen wrote: > Single parenting (whether because of > divorce or carelessness or desertion) is fragmenting society. The > nuclear family is being destroyed, let alone the extended family. Actually, the ease of travel is fragmenting the family. And government / capitalist policy is deliberately fragmenting the family. Taxes in the 50% range are levied to allow the feds to provide services once provided by the extended family (care of the orphaned young, aged and infirm). When parents know they need not rely on children to care for them in old age, this removes their incentive to care for those children. Hence the increased abandonment of children by fathers. And of aged parents by grown children. No need to be nice to odd Aunt Edna - I'll never need her to take in my kids should I die early; the feds will see to it. And capitalists via the ad industry are busy conditioning everyone to rely on their products for personal satisfaction and happiness. The more fear and alienation they generate, the more money flows into their coffers, as people attempt to buy safety and connection. > - Vena, married to Muller (now deceased), no info about children She herself says their relationship is "recreational" meaning she is a sexual playmate > Blake had a brother and a sister, not to mention an uncle and a > cousin. In this universe, family is often used against one. Not an asset! Your insightful listing makes me see that the B7 universe is our present capitalist family fragmenting course carried further to a cold, dismal conclusion of alienation. Each of the crew is a sad, lonesome cast away. Only Cally voices the sadness of their shared situation. And from what we see of supporting characters, everyone's situation! Pat P ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:50:25 -0700 From: Jacquelyn Taylor To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Sprechen Sie Deutsch? Message-ID: <36A27741.44AE@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Uber Von Neil wrote: > >Ich glaube, dass Sie ganz Scheisse schreiben. Warum? > >Neil von Faulkner > And Joanne MacQueen asked: > As Neneh Cherry put it, I don't speak Swahili, but I do get the > impression that you don't think much of the idea. What does the rest of > it mean? (Just for non-German understanding me, please.) > > Regards > Joanne > And Neil teased: > It is a statement to the effect that the opinions proffered by StupeSud00 > might have market potential as quality fertiliser. > Well, duh! We already knew as much. For those of you still fascinated by this ongoing debate: What Neil Said Was: "I think that you are writing shit. Why?" Also, Neil, one "s" in "das." Jackie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:21:43 -0600 From: Lisa Williams To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Sprechen Sie Deutsch? Message-Id: <199901180017.SAA01467@mail.dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jacquelyn Taylor wrote: >Also, Neil, one "s" in "das." Not the way he was using it, meaning "that" in the sense of "I know that you are..." It's "dass", normally spelled with one of those German double-s characters which I'm not going to go look up how to reproduce here. "Das", with one 's', is "the". - Lisa _____________________________________________________________ Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@rsc.raytheon.com Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:19:55 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Now we know... Message-ID: <19990118001955.26991.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Has anyone considered that a certain person is so concerned about the present state of motherhood because he probably still needs his mummy quite badly? Think about it. Avon is bloody arrogant, but at least he would listen instead of demanding so much attention. If no one listened to him, that was their problem - there wasn't much in the way of insistence that one shared his point of view. Regards Joanne "You stupid man." The Sandman, aka Sandy, aka comedian Stephen Abbott. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:20:01 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: pussnboots@geocities.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Social engineering Message-ID: <648c0fde.36a27e31@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/17/99 7:17:19 PM EST, pussnboots@geocities.com writes: << In Victorian England, only the rich ladies fainted from wearing tight corsets - while the poor scullery maids and washerwomen wore loose shifts that enabled them to physically toil all the long day. >> But more importantly, they didn't look good. What's a little suffering for a nice figure? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:28:28 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: j_macqueen@hotmail.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Now we know... Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/17/99 7:22:08 PM EST, j_macqueen@hotmail.com writes: << Has anyone considered that a certain person is so concerned about the present state of motherhood because he probably still needs his mummy quite badly?>> Wrong. What makes you think I want attention. Perhaps you just aren't accustomed to dealing with honest people very often. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:45:09 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Social engineering Message-ID: <19990118004510.11690.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >But what does it mean? Rule thru grey? gristle? greasy? >Postulating Pat P I think you can take it as meaning a sort of power behind the throne, an advisor or counselor with a great deal of knowledge of the way things work. I'm sure he'd think of himself that way. Regards Joanne Anger is a nenergy. PiL, Rise. (Yes, I know, but that's what it sounds like.) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:06:59 PST From: "Edith Spencer" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Social engineering Message-ID: <19990118010659.24077.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Hello to all, and especially to SoupStew, Gee whiz. So annoying. Because Soupstew went and said this, in reply to Pat's post: In a message dated 1/17/99 7:17:19 PM EST, pussnboots@geocities.com writes: << In Victorian England, only the rich ladies fainted from wearing tight corsets - while the poor scullery maids and washerwomen wore loose shifts that enabled them to physically toil all the long day. >> But more importantly, they didn't look good. What's a little suffering for a nice figure? geesh. And totally missed the oppourtunity to comment on Servie's dresses, The high heeled boots various memebers of crew wore, or how Major Vina (?) could be a mojor and not have her feet hurt. It is stuff like that proves to be a wasted opportunity, and which annoys people. Edith ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 01:49:17 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Trolling 101 Message-ID: <000d01be4285$3b465060$ca8edec2@alisonpage.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat said - >I also am *not* offended by SuperSud's (I say that cuz he got everyone >worked up into a lather) posts, albeit the delivery is often 'hit and >run' Perhaps it is his writing style, more so than the message, that has >people upset. Also, I appreciate his restrained rejoinders to those >outright attacks on him by people who became too emotionally offended by >his opinion to respond to the message. I couldn't care less about his opinions, Pat, or his supposedly raunchy private life. I'm just sick of hearing about them over and over again. It seems to me (of course I could be wrong - email being so hard to interpret) that he is not being polite to you, and the other women who have been nice to him, but making fun of you. That seems very rude to me, much ruder than anything that anyone has said to him. This is just my intuition, which is far from infallible as I would be the first to admit. Anyway I've just found out how to killfile so it's no longer an issue for me. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:13:59 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Trolling 101 Message-ID: <19990118021400.18485.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >I couldn't care less about his opinions, Pat, or his supposedly >raunchy private life. I'm just sick of hearing about them over and over >again. Hear, hear! >It seems to me (of course I could be wrong - email being so hard to >interpret) that he is not being polite to you, and the other women who >have been nice to him, but making fun of you. That seems very rude >to me, much ruder than anything that anyone has said to him. This is >just my intuition, which is far from infallible as I would be the first to >admit. Trust your intuition, Alison. I suspect that he doesn't really care what we think, just so long as he can interpret a flattering reaction to what HE thinks. Forget "This is my truth, tell me yours" - which is the very thing that drew me into joining. I'd much rather read other people's posts, because they have so many other topics of conversation (and interesting ones at that), not just one that they insist on discussing, regardless of people's tolerance having been exhausted. Reluctant as I was to do so, the block sender function of Hotmail has been pressed into use, and the person in question has the dubious honour of being the first person I've killfiled. Our own egos need far more work than his. >Anyway I've just found out how to killfile so it's no longer an issue for >me. >Alison Bravo Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:44:22 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: Social engineering Message-ID: <199901172244_MC2-66FF-6046@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sarah T wrote: >Bayban makes a remark about Blake, something to the >effect that "I was on the wanted list before he crawled >out of his creche." Though we do know that Bayban enjoyed a warm relationship with his mother, and I imagined he was brought up very carefully by her. (Was she the only mother specifically mentioned, apart from Kasabi and the fleeting glimpse of the elder Stannis?) Re invisible mothers, those discussing which crew member they'd like as parent seemed to restrict themselves to the men. But I'd pick Cally. Strong and gentle. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:44:17 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: Women, B7 and Avon Message-ID: <199901172244_MC2-66FF-6044@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kathryn Andersen described: >Avon's Sympathetic Kindred Spirit. Strictly platonic. Mary Sue too. >I'd happily have a long-distance relationship with him; >a meeting of minds -- as far away as possible, like, via email. >That way, he couldn't kill me if things went wrong. But I wouldn't count on that! Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:07:35 +1000 From: "Taina Nieminen" To: "B7" Subject: [B7L] Responding to the Message Message-ID: <009e01be4298$175aa030$6f6f6f6f@tenzil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've spent a lot of time thinking about whether I should respond at all to SS debate, and if so, what I should say. It took a lot of contemplation, and a lot of cigarettes (I think therefore I smoke, or perhaps it should be I smoke therefore I think). Anyway, here it is. SS's message: >It's important, but the mother should provide the bulk of it. The man should >tend to his other duties. As far as I can gather, from SS's posts that I did read, and what people are quoting (post-killfile), he is saying that women should stay home and look after children, and that men should work to support their families (and women who do not want children are "selfish"). It's the message that angers me. (It doesn't "offend" or "upset". It *angers*.) Any suggestion that any human being *should* follow a particular life path angers me. We are all individuals, with our own needs, wants, strengths and weaknesses. SS's opinion is not unique. There are many people who want to see others forced back into the molds that they think people should fit. One person's opinion is neither here nor there, but enough of them together can constitute a significant political lobby group. That's why these opinions matter to me. Fully acknowledging that many, many people in the world still do not have much control over their lives, I believe that more people do, than at any other time in human history. I am an incurable optimist. I want to look forward to the new millennium with hope, that human beings can learn to live together, to balance rights with responsibility in such a way that people can fulfil their potential in the way that they want to, the way they choose to, without infringing on the freedoms and choices of others. "Shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" matter to me. I also want to make a brief remark on parenting (although my only experience of parenting is on the receiving end). What is considered to be "good" and "bad" parenting is socially determined. Any cross-cultural survey of parenting practices will reveal that. And every culture seems to consider their practices to be the "right" ones. I believe it's good to bear this in mind when talking about what constitutes good and bad parenting. As I'm sure everyone is aware, a nature vs nurture debate has raged about human personality for decades. It's still not settled, but I understand that more and more evidence is accumulating on the nature side, as more carefully constructed adoption and twin studies, and long-term follow-ups are carried out. Avon could well have had a loving and nurturing father and mother, who despairingly asked each other "where did we go wrong?" Children are robust individuals with their own personalities. These differences are apparent even in newborns. Some babies are calm and placid and settle easily. Others are very difficult to settle. Finally, Alison wrote: >It seems to me (of course I could be wrong - email being so hard to >interpret) that he is not being polite to you, and the other women who have >been nice to him, but making fun of you. That seems very rude to me, much >ruder than anything that anyone has said to him. This is just my intuition, >which is far from infallible as I would be the first to admit. Your intuition fits mine perfectly. It's much easier to wind other people up if you remain calm and "polite". Taina - ------------------------------ "What's 'friends,' Lyle?" "It's like a chemical reaction between people, Condo." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:22:27 -0700 From: Jacquelyn Taylor To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Nuisance Message-ID: <36A2C513.4BFA@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacqueline.thijsen wrote: >>>Not only that, but I no longer read any of Stupesud's postings. I find it difficult and basically a waste of time to pay attention to someone who in effect tells me (and any other woman) that he does not respect me and that I should have no rights whatsoever. I have just deleted all of Studdies postings without bothering to read them and will continue to do so.>>>> I subscribe to the digest version so that's rather a chore for me. He'll go away if we ignore him. He'll go away if we cease responding to him no matter how outrageous his posts. Let's deprive him of all this gratifying attention. As long as we continue to feed him with sputtering indignation, he's getting what he wants. And the posts will continue. There's no reason we need justify our life choices to him. I'm still behind in my reading. Jackie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:33:05 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] sloganeering Message-ID: <19990118053306.21949.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >Which naturally, leads me to: >Avon: the other white meat >Pat P You comparing him to pork? Regards Joanne (yess! Hotmail gave me back all my saved messages! Hoorah!) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 00:44:25 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Trolling 101 Message-ID: <592d5568.36a2ca39@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/17/99 8:52:43 PM EST, alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk writes: << It seems to me (of course I could be wrong - email being so hard to interpret) that he is not being polite to you, and the other women who have been nice to him, but making fun of you. That seems very rude to me, much ruder than anything that anyone has said to him. This is just my intuition, which is far from infallible as I would be the first to admit. I haven't been impolite to any member of this list, man or woman and I intend to continue to respect all posters' opinions. I haven't ridiculed any individual and have no plans to. I also don't use profanity, in either my personal or public life. I do have very strong opinions in many areas, one of which is the gender role issue in society. It seems that anyone with a strong opposing opinion on this list is seen as automatically sarcastic or someone not to be trusted. I have given you no reason to not trust me. I have been honest from the first post, or perhaps you prefer someone who smiles at you and then stabs you in the back as soon as you turn your back. All future posts, should I be allowed to post here in the future, will be B7 related by me. If you guys continue to choose to insult someone because you don't understand them, that's fine, do so, but do it in private. If you wish to insult me, my email address is open, but I come here because I'm a B7 fan, and there are so few of us that I welcomed the chance to consort with other likeminded individuals at least likeminded in their appreciation of B7. I don't think its fair to the others here for you, or anyone else, to continue to hurl insults. If you wish to discuss this further, you know how to reach me....now back to B7. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 00:09:25 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Fwd: The Men in Blake's 7 (was Re: [B7L] The Morrigan in B7) Message-ID: <19990118080927.8638.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Louise Rutter wrote: >What do other women think of the Blake's 7 guys, if they consider, not a dream romance, but the way real life usually works? I think I would like Avon (I like anyone who makes me laugh, even at someone else's expense) but - as I am scatty, disorganised, a menace to computers everywhere and make Vila look like a model of logic - Avon would KILL me. And enjoy it. And as I said before, if I could reach Tarrant's neck... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:43:08 +1000 From: "Taina Nieminen" To: "B7" Subject: Re: The Men in Blake's 7 (was Re: [B7L] The Morrigan in B7) Message-ID: <002701be42be$9350ad30$6f6f6f6f@tenzil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Louise Rutter wrote: >>What do other women think of the Blake's 7 guys, if they consider, not >a dream romance, but the way real life usually works? Carnell. Intelligent, perceptive, unmaterialistic, not interested in power (from his statements in his recorded message to Servalan). Taina - ------------------------------ "What's 'friends,' Lyle?" "It's like a chemical reaction between people, Condo." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 07:41:08 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Sprechen Sie Deutsch? Message-ID: <00ba01be42c5$c1470480$721fac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Jacquelyn Taylor wrote: > >>Also, Neil, one "s" in "das." > >Not the way he was using it, meaning "that" in the sense of "I know that >you are..." It's "dass", normally spelled with one of those German double-s >characters which I'm not going to go look up how to reproduce here. > >"Das", with one 's', is "the". > > - Lisa Danke sehr, Lisa! (Jac had me worried for a mo, though). FWIW, I gather the Scharf's S (the squiggly double-s that looks a bit like a capital B) has now been officially removed from the German language. Might be wrong but I'm sure I read it somewhere. (My landlady runs a language school for German students, and I used to do a bit of teaching on the side, so I keep an interest.) Tschus! Neil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 05:11:14 EST From: AChevron@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7 Message-ID: <20564599.36a308c2@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/15/99 8:20:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, SupeStud00@aol.com writes: << Men should be the hunters, gatherers, and women the home managers. Its a force of nature. >> Actually, women are traditionally the gathereres, as well as the "home managers." And frequently it was the gathering that would keep a tribe going, when the hunters were unable to supply the tribe with food. D. Rose ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:17:38 +-100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: "blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: RE: [B7L] Nuisance Message-ID: <01BE42DC.8D808100@nl-arn-lap0063> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jacquelyn Taylor said: >He'll go away if we ignore him. He'll go away if we cease responding to >him no matter how outrageous his posts. Let's deprive him of all this >gratifying attention. As long as we continue to feed him with sputtering >indignation, he's getting what he wants. And the posts will continue. >There's no reason we need justify our life choices to him. Must be something about the name Jacqueline (or Jacquelyn), so it gets given to very intelligent people ;-). >Jackie That reminds me, Calle did you ever find out why Ms Stanistraken posted all those weird messages? And did she just go away, or did you kick her out? Jacqueline Thijsen (who is way too curious for her own good). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:29:17 +1000 From: "Taina Nieminen" To: "B7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Nuisance Message-ID: <005601be42d5$c9e86330$6f6f6f6f@tenzil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >That reminds me, Calle did you ever find out why Ms Stanistraken posted all those weird messages? And did she just go away, or did you kick her out? > >Jacqueline Thijsen (who is way too curious for her own good). > Actually, I didn't get any weird messages from any Stanistraken. I have been wondering what this Stanistraken thing was all about. What e-mail address did they come from? Taina (probably also too curious for her own good) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:24:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: B7 Subject: Re: [B7L] Social engineering Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Taina Nieminen wrote: > I've always thought that the Federation was a very patriarchal society, in > which it was difficult, but not impossible, for women to achieve positions > of high power. The only powerful women who come to mind right now are > Servalan, and Governor Le Grand in Voice from the Past. I always had the opposite impression. There are a fair few women in positions of power and responsibility, and no-one ever remarks upon the fact. This implies that it is an accepted fact of life. (I'm ignoring Jarvik, just because.) Funny how we managed to get such different impressions from the same series. Iain ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:27:35 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Lisa Williams wrote: > > To add to your list: Kasabi, one child, no info about the child's father. > As far as I can recall, she's the only actual mother we see on the show. > (Of course, in the script Kasabi -- then "Kasabian" -- was Veron's > *father*...) That's interesting. I think that episode benefits a lot from Kasabi being female. Do you know at what stage Kasabian bacame Kasabi? I'm just curious about whether it was at the script editing stage (and hence done by Chris Boucher) or at the casting stage (and thus David Maloney's idea). Iain ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:52:39 +1000 From: "Taina Nieminen" To: "B7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Social engineering Message-ID: <006501be42d9$0d207540$6f6f6f6f@tenzil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Iain wrote: >I always had the opposite impression. There are a fair few women in >positions of power and responsibility, and no-one ever remarks upon the >fact. This implies that it is an accepted fact of life. (I'm ignoring >Jarvik, just because.) Funny how we managed to get such different >impressions from the same series. Ah, someone needs to do an actual count of how many women there were in positions of power (and how many men, to get the ratio). I remember reading (a long time ago) that people tend to overestimate the numbers of women in a group. That is, if, say, 35% of a group is female, people tend to perceive it as 50%. I'm not saying that this is what's actually contributing to our different impressions, just that it's a possibility. Also possible is that we have different standards for what constitutes a position of power. Avalon was outside the Federation power structure, and I recall that Kasabi had been an instructor of some sort. I don't know where that fits in the hierarchy. The Clone Masters, too, seem to have been outside the Federation structure. Also, I see the Federation as a very militaristic society (Parr's remark in Trial that Space Command runs the Federation.) Apart from Servalan and Thania, the only women in the military that I can recall were all mutoids. If being in the military is an important avenue for power, the lack of women in the military does make it more difficult for women in general to achieve power. Taina - ------------------------------ "What's 'friends,' Lyle?" "It's like a chemical reaction between people, Condo." ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 1999 13:15:31 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Nuisance Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Jacqueline Thijsen writes: > That reminds me, Calle did you ever find out why Ms Stanistraken > posted all those weird messages? And did she just go away, or did > you kick her out? No, I never found out. I removed him/her from the list to stop the flood, and later I got a mail saying that his/hers account had been closed. That's all I know. -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se "I'd rather hang on to madness than normality" -- KaTe Bush ------------------------------ Date: 18 Jan 1999 13:18:43 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: "B7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Nuisance Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII "Taina Nieminen" writes: > Actually, I didn't get any weird messages from any Stanistraken. I have been > wondering what this Stanistraken thing was all about. What e-mail address > did they come from? d.stanistraken@dundee.ac.uk, and as I think I said earlier I removed several hundred messages from him/her from the outgoing mailqueue, so relatively new subscribers (who are near the end of the file holding the subscriber list) may not have recieved any of them at all. -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se "I'd rather hang on to madness than normality" -- KaTe Bush ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 07:47:37 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: AChevron@aol.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7 Message-ID: <6def6850.36a32d69@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/18/99 5:15:16 AM EST, AChevron@aol.com writes: << << Men should be the hunters, gatherers, and women the home managers. Its a force of nature. >> Actually, women are traditionally the gathereres, as well as the "home managers." And frequently it was the gathering that would keep a tribe going, when the hunters were unable to supply the tribe with food. >> Thanks for the clarification. It sort of makes you wonder why some persons still associate hunting with gathering. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:03:28 +1000 From: "Taina Nieminen" To: "B7" Subject: [B7L] Mutoids Message-ID: <008801be42e2$f1771d30$6f6f6f6f@tenzil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now here's a question that just occurred to me. Were all the mutoids female? I can't recall seeing any male ones. And if they were, why? If they were mostly pilots, possibly because of the greater speed of nerve conduction in females, hence reaction time. I seem to recall that this came up in one of Heinlein's novels, to explain why all the pilots were female. Of course, the non-mutoid pilots are all male. Taina - ------------------------------ "What's 'friends,' Lyle?" "It's like a chemical reaction between people, Condo." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 07:05:57 -0600 From: Lisa Williams To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon Message-Id: <199901181302.HAA24285@mail.dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Iain Coleman wrote: >That's interesting. I think that episode benefits a lot from Kasabi being >female. Do you know at what stage Kasabian bacame Kasabi? I can't tell, but the script I have is very close to the finished episode as far as lines go, so the substitution probably took place fairly late in the process. Kasabi's lines didn't change; all they did for the aired version was lop a couple of letters off the name and change "father" to "mother" in the necessary references. It could easily have been done at the casting stage. - Lisa _____________________________________________________________ Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@rsc.raytheon.com Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:06:31 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: tenzil@bigpond.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Responding to the Message Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/18/99 1:20:14 AM EST, tenzil@bigpond.com writes: << I've spent a lot of time thinking about whether I should respond at all to SS debate, and if so, what I should say. It took a lot of contemplation, and a lot of cigarettes (I think therefore I smoke, or perhaps it should be I smoke therefore I think). Anyway, here it is. Thanks for responding. <> You are correct in your assessment. I believe that the degadation of society is rooted in the loss of the nuclear family. As far as selfish, I think men and women who do not want children for purely reasons dealing with themselves, are selfish. Not just women, couples. << It's the message that angers me. (It doesn't "offend" or "upset". It *angers*.) Any suggestion that any human being *should* follow a particular life path angers me.>> Curious. Do you mean any suggestion by an individual, the government, your parents, or is it anyone? I suggested that it was possible the Federation, in Blakes 7, had dabbled in it, especially in the delta classes, ie Vila. Perhaps Vila becoming a thief was his way of rebeling against that system. << We are all individuals, with our own needs, wants, strengths and weaknesses.>> Agreed, but we are also subject to our governments, our jobs, our particular talents, our parents (if we're lucky enough to have two) etc. How does this fit in with personal freedom, and do we really have personal freedom? << SS's opinion is not unique. There are many people who want to see others forced back into the molds that they think people should fit. One person's opinion is neither here nor there, but enough of them together can constitute a significant political lobby group. That's why these opinions matter to me.>> My opinion is based on the fact that if persons are encouraged or even made to fit those molds, we would have a much more efficient system within our society. Things would get done a lot quicker and a lot faster in the business world, with a minimum of distractions, cat-fights, etc. I think this would be the Federations reason for attempting social engineering on their people. << Fully acknowledging that many, many people in the world still do not have much control over their lives, I believe that more people do, than at any other time in human history. I am an incurable optimist. I want to look forward to the new millennium with hope, that human beings can learn to live together, to balance rights with responsibility in such a way that people can fulfil their potential in the way that they want to, the way they choose to, without infringing on the freedoms and choices of others. "Shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" matter to me.>> Good point. That being said, I'm probably less the optinist. I just don't think human beings are ready for this sort of freedom during our time, and obviously not during Blake's time, based on the actions of the rebels and the government. I guess I've been on the receiving end of the human condition a little too much. <> I believe you are correct, which supports my original argument of the importance of biological parents. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:10:15 EST From: SupeStud00@aol.com To: tenzil@bigpond.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Mutoids Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/18/99 8:03:15 AM EST, tenzil@bigpond.com writes: << Now here's a question that just occurred to me. Were all the mutoids female? I can't recall seeing any male ones. And if they were, why? If they were mostly pilots, possibly because of the greater speed of nerve conduction in females, hence reaction time. I seem to recall that this came up in one of Heinlein's novels, to explain why all the pilots were female. Of course, the non-mutoid pilots are all male. >> Very interesting observation. Amazingly it never occurred to me, but perhaps its biological. Perhaps the process of creating a mutoid is rooted in something dealing with the female body, or perhaps its psychological. I have been frequently told that women handle pain much better than men (ie childbirth). Or perhaps its the Federation indulging in that social engineering again, perhaps in an effort to reduce the number of women to men, based upon the reluctance of women to double up with so few men. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:30:51 +1000 From: vera@c031.aone.net.au To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] sloganeering Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990118233051.008842b0@mail01.mel.aone.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Pat P >>Which naturally, leads me to: >>Avon: the other white meat Joanne > You comparing him to pork? Well, it seems as if *porking* is what a lot of our listmembers (not necessarily the be-y-chromosomed among us, of course) have in mind for him. Speaking of which - do you lads not like our Avon? Or have no reasons to like him? Or are bored with talking about him? (Oh, say it ain't so!) Or are tentative about professing an opinion? Friend? Hero? Idiot? Inspiration? Strong or merely brittle? If Trek was Wagon Train to the Stars, was B7 The Searchers? Malissa -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #34 *************************************