From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #63 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/63 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 63 Today's Topics: [B7L] OT, Re: Zen is not a IT !!! [B7L] Bonus Brief Foray Into Alternate Flat Universe [B7L] Food for trollish thought [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation [B7L] Re: Fannishness Re: [B7L] Fannishness [B7L] Flat Robin 22 (The Real Thing This Time) by Penny Re: [B7L] Yet another Flat Robin (16), this time by Jacqueline Re: [B7L] OT, Re: Zen is not a IT !!! Re: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! Re: [B7L] Yet another Flat Robin (16), this time by Jacqueline Re: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin- Re: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin- Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation [B7L] Orac, Zen, pronouns and gender (getting somewhat OT) Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation [B7L] Too much caffeine RE: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! RE: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin- RE: [B7L] Re: Fannishness Re: [B7L] Zen is not a IT !!! Re: [B7L] Too much caffeine RE: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin- RE: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin- Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:54:25 PST From: "Penny Dreadful" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] OT, Re: Zen is not a IT !!! Message-ID: <19990215215425.28586.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Kathryn said: >We need a new pronoun. How about "e"? Like "he" with the "h" chopped >off, or "she" with the "sh" chopped off. That's one of the standard genders available to choose from on MOOs; it's called "Spivak". Here's what I got from "help Spivak" on [Penny puts on K-Tel Slicer-Dicer hawker voice] EgoMOO, The Postmodernest MOO On The Net! The spivak pronouns were developed by mathematician Michael Spivak for use in his books. They are the most simplistic of the gender neutral pronouns (others being "neuter" and "splat") and can be easily integrated into writing. They should be used in a generic setting where the gender of the person referred to is unknown, such as "the reader." They can also be used to describe a specific individual who has chosen not to identify emself with the traditional male or female gender. The spivak pronouns are E - subjective Em - objective Eir - possessive (adjective) Eirs - possessive (noun) Emself - reflexive --Thoroughly Pretentious Penny ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:07:17 PST From: "Penny Dreadful" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Bonus Brief Foray Into Alternate Flat Universe Message-ID: <19990215220717.15280.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain I whupped this up this morning, then discovered Jacqueline had beat me into the Mended Drum. So on the off chance that some of you actually feel you're not getting *enough* lame Pratchett rip-off in your diet, I decided to post it as a brief dead-end What If or Whatever you call it. *** Avon set Rincewind down on the adhesive floor of The Mended Drum. "There's nothing here," he said. Vila merely stared open-mouthed at the lone upright chair sitting empty in front of the lone upright table for several seconds before grinning sheepishly and slinking toward it. "Actually there's quite a *bit* of stuff here," Jenna said, using the edge of one of the numerous overturned tables to scrape a blood-sodden banana-peel off the bottom of her boot. Avon chivalrously restrained himself from waving his cosh at her. "There's no...*body* here," he amended, and caught up a large handful of the front of Rincewind's red robe. "*You* said, and I *quote*, 'You'll be up to your armpits in brawny barbarians and powerful mages in *there*, Mister Leather-Trousers, and they'll all do your bidding, however distasteful, for the promise of gold, even ten-karat stuff, or my name isn't Look A Pregnant Mare Ouch Ah Well Worth A Shot.'" "Did I?" asked Rincewind. "My goodness, you must have one of those eiderdown memories, like old Hex there back at the University." Vila had righted another chair at the table in the centre of the chaos, and was deep in apparently one-sided conversation. Avon and Jenna, despite their better judgement, found themselves turning to listen. "Did I say that?" Vila was saying. "Must have been the scumble talking. Believe me, I'm as honest as the day is long." He paused. "Oh, they are, are they? Well, I hope *you* have a happy Winter Solstice too...well, if you're buying..." Momentarily the bartended materialized out of the gloom at the far end of the establishment carrying two mugs of Olde Ankh Extra-Skank. He set the drinks down on the table, one in front of Vila and the other in front of the empty chair. Avon and Jenna drew closer, frog-marching a saucer-eyed Rincewind. "Of course, of course," Vila said brightly, drinking deep. "I had every intention of getting right on that assignment just as soon as I'd helped out my friends here." He gestured toward Jenna and Avon, who were now squinting over his shoulder at the space to which he was speaking. The mug in front of it was now somehow half-empty, though they hadn't taken their eyes from it. "Yes, you're looking well too," said Rincewind suddenly. "How's...tricks?" He listened a moment. "Really? Pregnant..." He scowled at Vila. "That's *my* line!" "And a very useful one, too," said Vila, draining his pint. "Well, old...thing, shall we get on with it?" The other mug was now empty as well, and there were two verdigris-encrusted copper coins in the middle of the table. "Back in a jiffy," said Vila to his tangible compatriots, and vanished. Jenna reached out to pick up the coins and examine them. "I wish I could say that was the strangest thing I've ever seen," said Avon. "Anyhow, where were we? You were comparing me to old Hex at the University," he said, turning his attention back to Rincewind. "This would indicate that this Hex might be someone worth meeting." *** Then that Universe exploded. Awk! We now return you to Regularly Scheduled Programming. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:07:53 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Food for trollish thought Message-ID: <19990215220753.21002.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain >Julia Jones writes: >> So what do vegetarian trolls eat instead of billy goats? >Triffids and ents. > Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | Dryads and hamadryads? Just a suggestion. Regards Joanne PS that's a better reason for no Entwives than the one given by Treebeard. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:16:48 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! Message-ID: <19990215221648.24290.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Unless, of course, someone out there doesn't like the obvious. But there are those of us who will feel a little cheated if Avon doesn't bump into Sam Vimes at some point. Indulge us, pretty please? (Don't tell me to write it myself - I'm an omnivore.) Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:02:48 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation Message-ID: <36C8B5A8.95CE5075@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, all! I am new to this list, but I have read all of the '98 digests, and have enjoyed all of your comments. It's great to know there are other B7 fans out there; would you believe that I have never actually met anyone else who has ever seen an episode (except for my best friend, who does not actually count, since I basically shoved it down her throat)? Anyroad, I have been tempted out of lurkdom by a few thoughts on this fascinating thread: Pherber@aol.com wrote: > storm@catchnet.com.au writes: > > << I always wondered why the Federation did not try to condition Avon, in an > attempt to rehabilitate him in order to retain his highly rated skills.>> > Possibilities: > 1.) Avon's mind resists "adjustment," like Vila's. > 2.) Using the (apparently drastic) treatment applied to Blake might adversely > affect his desirable technical skills. > 3.) Something in Avon's personal and/or political background makes it > politically impossible to justify conditioning him (with the attendant risk > that he might break out of it at some point in future). Good possibilities all; but I would like to offer what I think is a simpler solution: cost. Vila probably had only relatively simple treatments like aversion therapy, but memory modification like Blake's seems to have been difficult and unreliable, and therefore probably time-consuming and expensive as well. I seem to recall that Blake was watched; they certainly kept supporting the false memories by sending him fake vis-tapes from his brother and sister. The difficulty and expense of the treatments would have been justified by the political necessity of getting him to publicly denounce the rebellion. Political necessity, again, was the justification for the memory modifications of the children and the sham trial. Blake was unusually visible and required an unusual solution. He was dangerous dead or alive. With regard to Avon, however, he does not appear to have been of any public note, and so these extreme types of solutions would not have been necessary; nor would it seem that he was of any particular value to the Federation (indeed, his attitude seems to support the idea that he considered himself undervalued and possibly resented it); however, simple conditioning would not have been sufficient; memory modification would have been required to prevent him from finding out that Anna was alive, and compromising her identity as Bartolomew. Transportation to Cygnus Alpha would have been simpler and more cost-effective, and I doubt that memory modification was ever considered for him. Even if it had been, I believe it has been mentioned on this list that Anna might have had something to do with his sentence, not only to protect herself, but to protect Avon; and she would certainly be aware that he would abhor having his mind tampered with. Alive and with his mind intact, he still had a chance at a future. (Now there's a thought: the idea has been raised that there was a plot to free Blake from the London; what if the plot was really Bartolomew pulling strings to get _Avon_ off the London?) All of the above, of course, IMHO. Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:14:13 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation Message-ID: <19990215231414.27880.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain >"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila No need, Mistral. That's so plausible an explanation that I think I remember reading others coming to a similar conclusion. The more money spent on keeping people in line, the less to be used to line the pockets of Servalan and other like-minded members of the Federation hierarchy. Welcome to the list. Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:16:44 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: Fannishness Message-ID: <199902152117_MC2-6A9A-3CF1@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Neil wrote: >It's 'fun, because...'. It's the 'because' that interests me. >Unearthing the 'because' can be... well, fun, actually. Hmmm. This sounds like those "analyse the humour in Twelfth Night" questions one used to get in O-level English. I refused to do them, arguing that humour is that which is lost in the analysis. But I admit that it's fun trying to come up with a rational explanation inside canon for something so preposterous it could only be caused by real-life constraints. Sort of crossword-solving fun. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:02:46 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Fannishness Message-ID: <36C8DFD5.2417@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil Faulkner wrote: - > A conclusion I reached years ago. Or rather, lots of things are fun, but > nothing is _simply_ fun and nothing else. It's 'fun, because...'. It's the > 'because' that interests me. Unearthing the 'because' can be... well, fun, > actually. Okay, now that you put it that way... I believe in keeping characters in character. If one can expand it out beyond the canon, fine. In fact, I'm outraging a number of Sherlock Holmes fans and delighting others by setting a story with him and Irene Adler in the days of their youth. But I feel Canon should be kept in mind, because otherwise you aren't writing "the" characters Avon and Vila, you are just using those names on very differnt people. I have fun writing pastiches and fanfic, because I like writing, but in writing for a fan audience, one has to spend less time on explanations and more time exploring. It's well and good to write essays about why this character may act the way he does, but it's more intriguing to show why. And in the case of a comic fanfic like the Flat Robin, it's the interest and challenge of mixing two very different ideas of the universe together and watching them go bang on the street of Alchemists. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:35:52 PST From: "Penny Dreadful" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: arkaroo@hothail.com, egomoo@geocities.com Subject: [B7L] Flat Robin 22 (The Real Thing This Time) by Penny Message-ID: <19990216023554.7361.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain *** "I tell you, Supreme Commander, I was not in my right mind!" "How unprecedented." Servalan marched rapidly up the road that led away from The Mended Drum and toward the outskirts of Ankh-Morpork, her gold-hungry Mob still at her heels and her henchman at her side, now over his frog trip and back in a comfortably familiar state of violent agitation. Servalan punched him in the arm as they hurried along. He looked around for someone to kick in retaliation, but his mutoids had deserted, and all the members of the Mob within reach looked like they might not take it so amicably. So he shoved his hands deeper into the pockets of his newly-confiscated robe and glared hatefully at the cobblestones stretching out in front of him, hoping for a rat or a beggar. "They shouted at me! They abandoned me! They pushed me into my salad!" Travis raged. "After all I've done for them, the ungrateful--" His right hand in its pocket wrapped around one of the sausages that had come with the garment and squeezed the stuffing out of it. His left found the flask of scumble. "After all you've *done* for them?" Servalan asked, obviously spoiling for a fight. "Give me a list. No, better yet don't, I'm *sure* I don't want to know. Well, they should be easy enough to track down and terminate once we've got a garrison set up here. After all, how many bloodsucking supersoldiers could there be on a world of this size?" "I wouldn't even care to hazard a guess, Supreme Commander." His left hand, seemingly of its own volition, fished the flask out of its pocket and held it up in front of his eyes. He unscrewed the top and took a tentative sniff. "Eurgh, Travis, your nostril hairs are falling out," Servalan said. "What *is* that?" "I don't know, Supreme Commander. Smells kind of appley. Alcoholic beverage of some sort I suppose." He raised the flask to his lips. Behind him the Mob inhaled collectively, as if Evel Kneivel were starting up the ramp. "Do you really think you should be drinking on the job, Travis?" Servalan demanded. Travis took a big swig of scumble. "Alcohol has no effect on my metabolism, Supreme Commander," he said smugly, as steam rose slowly from his ears. The Mob were deathly silent now, except for the sound of sandals on pavement and the clatter of weaponry. Ladies and Gentlemen, Evel has now left terra firma. Let us pray. "Well then why are you *drinking* it, you idiot?" Servalan demanded. "and for that matter how do you know it won't interact unexpectedly with those little green pills you took earlier?" The Mob gasped. It knew there was only one kind of 'little green pill' on the discworld, and it knew the old adage: "Scumble and beer Make you feel queer; Scumble and wine Make you feel fine; Scumble and gin Make your mouth grin; But scumble and frog Make you wake up stark naked and covered with strange tattoos face-down in the middle of the local bog (And that's if you're lucky)!" "What little green pills?" Travis asked nonchalantly, and took another sip. *** "Tarriel (tar-ri-el) n.," Ponder Stibbons read. "1. A kind of cheese, having green veins and a distinctive odour, and which will spontaneously combust in the presence of air. 2. An inexpensive prostitute (obs)." Ponder tried unsuccessfully *not* to imagine what Hex would want with either of these, before willing himself to read on. "3. A small woodland creature (sci. animalia cordata mammalia carnivora rodenta viciousa buggerus) alleged to be named in honour of the last words of its discoverer, Archduke Pigeon of Maul, after his beaters and bearers asked him if he did not want to stop their expedition for the night, as it was growing too dark to see the treacherous terrain they were traversing, which are supposed to have been, 'Tarry? Hell no, not with those evil little woodland creatures I don't know the name of staring at me from high in the treetops, just waiting for me to let my guard down, have you seen the teeth on those bastards?' whereupon he stepped into a gorge and had been consumed in his entirety by the tarriels before the beaters and bearers could lower themselves to retrieve his corpse." Ponder decided to hope against hope that Hex was hankering for either strong cheese or an obsolete harlot. *** "Well, I suppose there's nothing for it but to send a delegation down to the Mended Drum to tell that harlot she'll have to move her vehicle," Ridcully said. "Until then I must say I for one won't feel comfortable walking from the Dining Hall to the Student's Quarters." "I never do," said the Lecturer in Recent Runes. "The trip back is always a treat, though." "I *mean* for fear the thing might fall on me," said Ridcully. "Anyhow, imagine what the impact could do to poor Mr. Modo's heart." "Punch it quite a ways into the topsoil, I'll wager," said the Dean. "Is magic an option here?" "One wrong rune levitating an object of that magnitude and the principle of leverage dictates your brains would be in very low, very fast orbit," said the Senior Wrangler. "I'll volunteer. What's a harlot?" "Five dollars, Senior Wrangler, same as in town," said the Bursar. *** ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:14:01 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Yet another Flat Robin (16), this time by Jacqueline Message-ID: <36C8E279.5730@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jacqueline Thijsen wrote: > > >Apparently this cell was to be filled with an exotic creature > > >known as a tarriel. > > > > The mind reels at the possibilities. > > > Well, how else is Hex going to meet Orac and Zen? I really don't feel we > could properly end this story without those three having contact with each > other at least once. Avon is found out to be an 'expert' and is called in to cosult with the wiards about Hex. Once he realizes what it is, he _has_ to haave it, and starts hatching a scheme to steal Hex, which he will of course rope Vila in to. But I have to catch up... Penny, watch some tapes, wread a good book.... stop putting out 3 chapters a day! :^) Merrily befuddled, Avona ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:30:01 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] OT, Re: Zen is not a IT !!! Message-ID: <36C8E639.E93@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bluidy 'ell, all this 'e stuff doesn't sound like a new nuetral gender. Sounds loike h'an h'interestin' h'accent! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:31:39 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! Message-ID: <36C8E69A.D56@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joanne MacQueen wrote: > > Unless, of course, someone out there doesn't like the obvious. But there > are those of us who will feel a little cheated if Avon doesn't bump into > Sam Vimes at some point. > > Indulge us, pretty please? (Don't tell me to write it myself - > I'm an omnivore.) > > Regards > Joanne Still permitted. Join us... don't be afraid (and this just after I was begging people to slow down!) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:07:18 PST From: "Penny Dreadful" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Yet another Flat Robin (16), this time by Jacqueline Message-ID: <19990216030718.16441.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Avona screamed in agony: >Penny, watch some tapes, wread a good >book.... stop putting out 3 chapters a day! :^) In my defense, I *have* been posting for two...Arkaroo apparently refuses to subscribe to this mailing list on account of its being chock full of degenerates or some such...really I've been putting out one chapter a day maximum -- but I admit when I get obsessed I lose all sense of proportion. Okay, I vow before you all I won't post any more Flat Robin until at least two people other than myself and Arkaroo have contributed. --Penny "SuperSpam" Dreadful ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:32:45 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin- Message-ID: <19990216033245.22102.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Avona wrote: >Still permitted. Join us... don't be afraid (and this just after I was >begging people to slow down!) I would, but I'm beginning to drown in legal matters (not my own, thank goodness. It's either feast or famine for us legal and business indexers, and right now I'm in danger of becoming Mr Creosote. No one mention wafer thin mints!). So, sorry, Penny, it won't be me who is one of the others contributing before you allow yourself to do so again. Don't know if I can do it justice, anyway. Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:45:58 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin- Message-ID: <36C8F805.65D9@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I shall probably be able to add a new portion to the flat robin tomorrow-- I've printed it out and shall be reading it tonight and tomorrow morning until I am completely on top of things-- which probably means Jacqueline will turn out 10 new chapters before I get home from work tomorrow. And perhaps I will be inspired by the question of vegetarian torlls... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:30:20 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation Message-ID: <36C9026C.5038@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Afenech wrote: > > Nina said: > > > Given that there's no evidence (within the series, anyway) that > >conditioning was ever tried on Avon at all ... > > Comments, anyone? > > I often wonder if Avon's comment in 'Voice from the past' something along > the lines of brain-washing being enough to give anyone nightmares might > not suggest that he did have some personal knowledge of it? > > Pat Fenech Quite possible. I, for one, doubt they wouldn't want to get more information out of their prisoner once he was arrested, for one thing. And then, there weren't any other white collar crooks as far as we could tell on the London. Sending him on a one-way trip rather than trying to rehabilitate him on a first offense is odd. They do have rehabilitation centers (which Blake's Freedom Party used to raid), which indicates it wouldn't be _that_ rare a procedure. Why try to rehabilitate an ordinary thief and not a computer engineer? Avon's attitude and will that kept him awake for so long on Ultraworld, kept him silent under torture, etc. probably made it clear early on that the brainwashing wasn't working. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:04:35 +1000 From: Taina Nieminen To: "'B7'" Subject: [B7L] Orac, Zen, pronouns and gender (getting somewhat OT) Message-ID: <01BE59BD.AEC37A50@TENZIL> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Although I was born in Australia and have lived all my life here, my native language is Finnish. Finnish has two singular third person pronouns - a polite one used to refer to people, and a vulgar one used to refer to animals and objects. Orac is sentient (in my opinion anyway) and should be referred to by the polite pronoun. Zen is probably sentient (in my opinion) and should also get the polite pronoun. Both are more than objects or things. Avon would probably disagree, though, as would some people on this list, no doubt. As people have pointed out, the problem with English is that unless you are going to use "it", or be ungrammatical and use the plural "they" to refer to one person/AI, the only other options are "he" and "she" which are gender specific (unless you take the view that "he" is inclusive of males and females, which is not very popular these days). >From my experience, though, I think that many native English speakers would have great difficulty with a non-gender specific pronoun for people, if one was to be introduced. I took some Chinese language classes when I was at university, and nearly everyone in the class had great difficulty in coming to terms with the non-gender specific singular third person pronoun used in Mandarin. ("But how do you know if you're talking about a man or a woman?") Gender is so ingrained into people's images of other human beings. What's one of the first questions people ask about a newborn baby? So, those people who see Zen and Orac as sentient beings (ie as people rather than things) need to apply a gender. Their voices are male, so the male gender is the obvious one to apply. I think this is what underlies the he-or-it argument - whether the AIs are "people" or "things" - rather than it just being a question of linguistically appropriate pronouns. The rural Finnish dialect that I speak rarely uses the polite pronoun, therefore everyone is "it". In this language, the whole Zen and it-or-he question is completely beside the point grammatically, but the question of whether Zen and Orac are people or things is not. Taina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 00:10:16 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 2/15/99 2:09:38 PM Mountain Standard Time, Fenech@onaustralia.com.au writes: << I often wonder if Avon's comment in 'Voice from the past' something along the lines of brain-washing being enough to give anyone nightmares might not suggest that he did have some personal knowledge of it? >> Certainly, he must have been interrogated to some degree after he was captured, so he could explain his empathy for what Blake had gone through. Also, his cynicism about the government in general seems to indicate that he was more aware of at least some of the nastier details than the average citizen, though it's hard to say whether he had that knowledge before they left Earth or he got it from Orac later. In a message dated 2/15/99 4:00:59 PM Mountain Standard Time, mistral@ptinet.net writes: << With regard to Avon, however, he does not appear to have been of any public note, and so these extreme types of solutions would not have been necessary; nor would it seem that he was of any particular value to the Federation (indeed, his attitude seems to support the idea that he considered himself undervalued and possibly resented it) >> How do you square this with Vila's statement in 'Spacefall' that Avon is "the number 2 man in the Federated worlds" with regard to computers? I agree that Avon does not seem to have a had a high-profile public presence and cost- effectiveness was very probably a factor in his sentence, but only one element, IMHO. It still seems likely to me that if he was in fact as brilliant as Vila's statement suggests, his permanent removal would represent a serious loss of future revenue potential for his Federation masters. That would be balanced against a combination of the cost of conditioning him, the expected longevity and stability of the conditioning, the cost of future surveillance and maintenance treatment, and the risks associated with him shaking off the conditioning at any point. Another factor (which could be argued either way) might include the value to the administration of making an example of him (rather like Blake), to potential imitators in the technical / academic world, if not to the public at large, as to what happens to troublemakers who aren't quite as clever as they think they are. Nina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:46:41 +1030 From: "Dunne, Martin Lydon - DUNML001" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Too much caffeine Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I appologise about the lack of focus here, but this all came out in one long thread- I have been wondering, what is the difference between Our Heroes, and say Travis' crimmers or Baben's crew? Is it that Our Heroes are necessarily good and just, or just that we know our psychopaths better than the rival criminals? Would people watch "Travis' Five"? Is there fan fiction about these other crews? Is the "Three Day Sweats" or "Terran Auge" in Killer supposed to be the same passing effect as the "Cygnus Malady"? A brief discomfort on leaving the Solar System, but ultimately it passes, it bears a resemblance. This would mean that none of the crew who suffer from this have been in deep space before. This is only possible if, presumably, none of them even know of this disease. Gan comes down with it, and he is not even from Earth! Further, Why would the aliens from Cygnus 61 send the Wanderer back to Federation space at a point it was impossible to reach by its own? This tips off Blake, but not the Fosferon base, they don't have Orac. Did the aliens know this, or simply expect the humans to fall into their trap? What on EARTH (and off) did Robert Holmes mean by the word "Constellation"? As I and astronomers understand it, it is an apparent pattern of stars caused by their lining up due to a unique point of reference (the Earth). However, Holmes always (and I use the term in the strongest sense) used it as a spatial location. WHY? Does anyone have any advances on this? Why does Gan ask what the women/ghosts in Duel look like when he was the first to see them? Is this another time of victimising the big slow one just to make the others look better? The programme guide claims he (David Jackson) did not like the limiter, and implies this is why he left. Was it his choice, or was he simply the most expendable member of the crew? When they mine the radioactive stuff in Horizon, Ro claims it is for the new intergalactic ships. Is this a lead into the intergalactic war? Was the Federation planning its own attack on Andromeda? Why was the fight between Avon and the computer dude cut in the 90's release of Space Fall? To get a lower rating? This now makes "The Beginning" of some value! I dubbed the fight, minus cuts to the flight deck and the prisoners breaking out, after the end of my copy of Space Fall. It works as a continuous scene. WHO did the editing for the 80's releases? Is there a special place in HELL reserved for them? Was Time Squad really shot first? This would explain the highly experimental (getting into character) feel of the episode. Were any others filmed out of running order? Does anyone else feel that the Platonic Forms of the series would have a different running order? Terminal seems to be a watershed, not just the events but also Avon's decision to follow the trail before the story starts. Wouldn't Rumours of Death be more apt to immediately precede this than Death-Watch? Is Death-Watch the most unusually filmed episode? As opposed to special effects, the camera work during the duel is pretty extraordinary. And then we get a shot THROUGH Orac! Was there anything else in the series that was as strange? Does Avon really have time, while trapped on Terminal and having let everyone down, to give himself a new hair do? Isn't that a little vain? I could empathise that he might be sick of the bowl cut , BUT......? What is the motivation in the third season? The Federation is smashed and little empires are growing. They have lost one idealist, leaving one more, two computers, two criminals. One more criminal and a blood feudist join up, and proceed to get in lots of trouble- WHY? Is it as Tarrant says in Volcano, that they are better equipped than other mercenary groups- they are now a mercenary group? The motivation in fourth season is easier to understand- desperation. Everytime they fly anywhere, Pursuit ships attack, never challenge, and just fire. Why then does Soolin join them? She claims she sells her skill- what does she ever receives? A miserable death, making Servalan rich and the Scorpio a great ship. Doesn't she know that people who hang out with this mob DIE HORRIBLY and NEVER GET RICH?!?!?!!??!!?!??!?? Martin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:14:53 +0100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: lysator Subject: RE: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F10FB1B@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain Avona wrote: > > > > Unless, of course, someone out there doesn't like the obvious. But there > > are those of us who will feel a little cheated if Avon doesn't bump into > > Sam Vimes at some point. > > > > Indulge us, pretty please? (Don't tell me to write it myself - > > I'm an omnivore.) > > > > Regards > > Joanne > > Still permitted. Join us... don't be afraid (and this just after I was > begging people to slow down!) > Hmm, I suppose omnivores can join us. But only after fasting for a day and swearing they will mend their evil ways with one hand in Offlers mouth. Highpriestess Penny will then graciously grant permission to submit something to this holy vegetarian crusade. Jacqueline Penny's main acolyte. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:08:28 +0100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: lysator Subject: RE: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin- Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F10FB1A@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain Avona said: > I shall probably be able to add a new portion to the flat robin > tomorrow-- I've printed it out and shall be reading it tonight and > tomorrow morning until I am completely on top of things-- which probably > means Jacqueline will turn out 10 new chapters before I get home from > work tomorrow. And perhaps I will be inspired by the question of > vegetarian torlls... > I sure hope so . And I have an unfair advantage over you: I'm still home sick, but now feeling good enough to write. As for Avon meeting Sam Vimes: I haven't been able to think of a funny way for that to happen yet, and that's why I had Avon repeating PD's ad lib from "Guards Guards!". The whole walking into the bar scene was written pretty much because of that. But Penny's version is better and I hereby declare this alternate universe to be the only true one: the Mended Drum is empty for the very first time in its long and distinguished existance, Vila is off to help Death open it's wine cellar and I am now eagerly waiting to find out what the effects of scumble when combined with recent exposure to frog pills will be on Travis. Will we see another name change? So for all of you other writers, please substitute part 20 with the alternate story. I think I will concentrate on Blake's singing lessons. Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:17:12 +0100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: RE: [B7L] Re: Fannishness Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F10FB1C@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain Harriet wrote: > But I admit that it's fun trying to come up with a rational explanation > inside canon for something so preposterous it could only be caused by > real-life constraints. Sort of crossword-solving fun. > Actually, I only think it's fun if the rational explanation itself is totally preposterous :-). Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 07:28:20 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Zen is not a IT !!! Message-ID: <008c01be597e$14a40f00$811cac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Judith wrote: >The Altas were, as their name implies, altered human beings. Most members of >that society were human. I don't see a computer with human sentiments as >impossible. That's not how I perceive the derivation of the name. I always thought it was from the Latin altus, for 'high' (as in altitude, altimeter). The name reflected their technological superiority, or their own inflated opinion of themselves. >However, it is the fact that Zen was fitted with a limiter (I think the >reference is in Time Squad) that convinces me. Why the need to limit Zen, >unless he was capable of independent thought. Zen's limiter is not a fact, it was a speculation voiced by Gan. If you think of Zen as an advanced artificial intelligence, it could be capable of independent thought whilst still being an it. Avon in Harvest of Kairos described Zen as 'a capacity charged brain', whatever that might be. (Ben Steed strikes again...) I notice that in the Sevencyclopaedia I consistently refer to Zen and Orac (and also Gambit) as it. Does anyone think of Gambit as a she? How did Belkov refer to it? Neil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 01:26:54 PST From: "Penny Dreadful" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Too much caffeine Message-ID: <19990216092655.13622.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Martin the Coffee Achiever inquired: >I have been wondering, what is the difference between Our Heroes, >and say Travis' crimmers or Baben's crew? >Is it that Our Heroes are necessarily good and just, or just that >we know our psychopaths better than the rival criminals? >Would people watch "Travis' Five"? I would! I would! Mmm, maybe I wouldn't. Bayban's crew actually I could see in the role, Bayban being Avon seen in entirely unflattering dramatic light. We see too little of the lot of them to decide, really. But Travis is always made explicitly *nasty* in a way Avon at his worst never comes close to, though his Crimmers could be very complex misunderstood individuals for all we know. Stupid as bricks thoug, poor buggers...what I want to know is, did anyone ever attempt to explain how he lost his primo hand-picked mutoid crew and picked up these goofy Crimmers between 'Trial' and 'Hostage'? How long was the interim supposed to have been? >What on EARTH (and off) did Robert Holmes mean by the word "Constellation"? Well, let us *graciously* assume he wasn't as absolutely clueless as I have known more than one BSc to be..."constellation" means "bunch of stars", basically, so perhaps in the (I estimate) several hundred years since interstellar flight was achieved the word has naturally taken on a different definition befitting mankind's broader perspective. (Note to Neil: I don't actually *buy* this...) >When they mine the radioactive stuff in Horizon, Ro claims it is for the new >intergalactic ships. Is this a lead into the intergalactic war? Was the >Federation planning its own attack on Andromeda? That's an intriguing thought. >Does Avon really have time, while trapped on Terminal and having >let everyone down, to give himself a new hair do? Isn't that a >little vain? He feels it's his selfless duty to Womankind. --Penny "LCD" Dreadful ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 01:31:29 PST From: "Penny Dreadful" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: RE: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin- Message-ID: <19990216093129.8913.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain >Highpriestess Penny will then graciously grant permission to submit >something to this holy vegetarian crusade. > >Jacqueline >Penny's main acolyte. Oh boy, I've got an acolyte! Well now I almost hesitate to mention that as far as I know Arkaroo subsists on naught but pepperoni Pizza Pops, canned tuna, and the Souls of the Damned. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 01:39:59 PST From: "Penny Dreadful" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: RE: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin- Message-ID: <19990216093959.28397.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Jacqueline said: >I had Avon repeating PD's ad lib from "Guards Guards!". Okay, I explained my allusions, now you explain yours. Please! --Penny "Not The 'PD' Mentioned Above" Dreadful ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:15:48 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation Message-ID: <19990216201548.63166@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Tue, Feb 16, 1999 at 12:10:16AM -0500, Pherber@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/15/99 4:00:59 PM Mountain Standard Time, > mistral@ptinet.net writes: > > << With regard to Avon, however, he does not appear to have been of any public > note, > and so these extreme types of solutions would not have been necessary; nor > would > it seem that he was of any particular value to the Federation (indeed, his > attitude seems to support the idea that he considered himself undervalued and > possibly resented it) >> > > How do you square this with Vila's statement in 'Spacefall' that Avon is "the > number 2 man in the Federated worlds" with regard to computers? Vila was talking through his hat. He based his statements on the fact of the fraud, and that Avon nearly got away with it. Therefore Vila deduced that Avon was fantastic with computers, and he also deduced that the fact that Avon was caught meant that he was caught by someone better at computers than he was. Therefore "obviously" Avon was #2 and the guy who caught him was #1. But *I* think Vila didn't know what he was talking about. For one thing, IMHO, it is easier to catch a cracker than to be a cracker; guess I'm taking an analogy with burglary - you don't have to be a burglar to catch a burglar, you just have to be observant. Yes, to *track down* a cracker would take skill, but we also have the manpower thing; Avon was one person, but those who caught him might have been a team, working all hours. All the systems would be on *their* side, Avon would be working at a disadvantage. So my *feeling* is, that even if Avon *was* caught through the fraud, rather than because of Bartolemew, that doesn't *necessarily* mean that the person or persons who caught him were more brilliant than he was. That's one thing. The other thing is that once you get that brilliant, talking about #1 and #2 is just silly. You can't rank skill like that, as if they were playing some computer Olympics. The most I would be prepared to say would be that Avon was one of the top ten computer people in the Federation. And that's all. Maybe the fellow who caught him was another one of the top ten, or maybe not. Sorry if this just came bursting out, I've been irritated by this talk of #1 and #2 ever since I read a story where the #1 programmer turns up and Avon is all resentful of e's status. Sorry, can't remember the story much. Just that it irritated me. Kathryn A. -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #63 *************************************