From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se
Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #63
X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
X-Mailing-List: <blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se> archive/volume99/63
Precedence: list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------"
To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se

------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

blakes7-d Digest				Volume 99 : Issue 63

Today's Topics:
	 [B7L] OT, Re: Zen is not a IT !!!
	 [B7L] Bonus Brief Foray Into Alternate Flat Universe
	 [B7L] Food for trollish thought
	 [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! <grin>
	 Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation
	 Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation
	 [B7L] Re: Fannishness
	 Re: [B7L] Fannishness
	 [B7L] Flat Robin 22 (The Real Thing This Time) by Penny
	 Re: [B7L] Yet another Flat Robin (16), this time by Jacqueline
	 Re: [B7L] OT, Re: Zen is not a IT !!!
	 Re: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! <grin>
	 Re: [B7L] Yet another Flat Robin (16), this time by Jacqueline
	 Re: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin-
	 Re: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin-
	 Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation
	 [B7L] Orac, Zen, pronouns and gender (getting somewhat OT)
	 Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation
	 [B7L] Too much caffeine
	 RE: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! <grin>
	 RE: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin-
	 RE: [B7L] Re: Fannishness
	 Re: [B7L] Zen is not a IT !!!
	 Re: [B7L] Too much caffeine
	 RE: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin-
	 RE: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin-
	 Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:54:25 PST
From: "Penny Dreadful" <pdreadful@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] OT, Re: Zen is not a IT !!!
Message-ID: <19990215215425.28586.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain

Kathryn said:

>We need a new pronoun.  How about "e"?  Like "he" with the "h" chopped
>off, or "she" with the "sh" chopped off.

That's one of the standard genders available to choose from on MOOs; 
it's called "Spivak". Here's what I got from "help Spivak" on [Penny 
puts on K-Tel Slicer-Dicer hawker voice] EgoMOO, The Postmodernest MOO 
On The Net!
<quote>
The spivak pronouns were developed by mathematician Michael Spivak for 
use in his books.  They are the most simplistic of the gender neutral 
pronouns (others being "neuter" and "splat") and can be easily 
integrated into writing.  They should be used in a generic setting where 
the gender of the person referred to is unknown, such as "the reader."  
They can also be used to describe a specific individual who has chosen 
not to identify emself with the traditional male or female gender.

The spivak pronouns are
E      - subjective
Em     - objective
Eir    - possessive (adjective)
Eirs   - possessive (noun)
Emself - reflexive
</quote>

--Thoroughly Pretentious Penny

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:07:17 PST
From: "Penny Dreadful" <pdreadful@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Bonus Brief Foray Into Alternate Flat Universe
Message-ID: <19990215220717.15280.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain

I whupped this up this morning, then discovered Jacqueline had beat me 
into the Mended Drum. So on the off chance that some of you actually 
feel you're not getting *enough* lame Pratchett rip-off in your diet, I 
decided to post it as a brief dead-end What If or Whatever you call it. 

***

Avon set Rincewind down on the adhesive floor of The Mended Drum.

"There's nothing here," he said.

Vila merely stared open-mouthed at the lone upright chair sitting empty 
in front of the lone upright table for several seconds before grinning 
sheepishly and slinking toward it.

"Actually there's quite a *bit* of stuff here," Jenna said, using the 
edge of one of the numerous overturned tables to scrape a blood-sodden 
banana-peel off the bottom of her boot. Avon chivalrously restrained 
himself from waving his cosh at her.

"There's no...*body* here," he amended, and caught up a large handful of 
the front of Rincewind's red robe. "*You* said, and I *quote*, 'You'll 
be up to your armpits in brawny barbarians and powerful mages in 
*there*, Mister Leather-Trousers, and they'll all do your bidding, 
however distasteful, for the promise of gold, even ten-karat stuff, or 
my name isn't Look A Pregnant Mare Ouch Ah Well Worth A Shot.'" 

"Did I?" asked Rincewind. "My goodness, you must have one of those 
eiderdown memories, like old Hex there back at the University."

Vila had righted another chair at the table in the centre of the chaos, 
and was deep in apparently one-sided conversation. Avon and Jenna, 
despite their better judgement, found themselves turning to listen.

"Did I say that?" Vila was saying. "Must have been the scumble talking. 
Believe me, I'm as honest as the day is long." He paused. "Oh, they are, 
are they? Well, I hope *you* have a happy Winter Solstice too...well, if 
you're buying..."

Momentarily the bartended materialized out of the gloom at the far end 
of the establishment carrying two mugs of Olde Ankh Extra-Skank. He set 
the drinks down on the table, one in front of Vila and the other in 
front of the empty chair. Avon and Jenna drew closer, frog-marching a 
saucer-eyed Rincewind.

"Of course, of course," Vila said brightly, drinking deep. "I had every 
intention of getting right on that assignment just as soon as I'd helped 
out my friends here." He gestured toward Jenna and Avon, who were now 
squinting over his shoulder at the space to which he was speaking. The 
mug in front of it was now somehow half-empty, though they hadn't taken 
their eyes from it.

"Yes, you're looking well too," said Rincewind suddenly. 
"How's...tricks?" He listened a moment. "Really? Pregnant..." He scowled 
at Vila. "That's *my* line!"

"And a very useful one, too," said Vila, draining his pint. "Well, 
old...thing, shall we get on with it?" The other mug was now empty as 
well, and there were two verdigris-encrusted copper coins in the middle 
of the table.

"Back in a jiffy," said Vila to his tangible compatriots, and vanished.

Jenna reached out to pick up the coins and examine them. "I wish I could 
say that was the strangest thing I've ever seen," said Avon. "Anyhow, 
where were we? You were comparing me to old Hex at the University," he 
said, turning his attention back to Rincewind. "This would indicate that 
this Hex might be someone worth meeting."

***

Then that Universe exploded. Awk! We now return you to Regularly 
Scheduled Programming.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:07:53 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Food for trollish thought
Message-ID: <19990215220753.21002.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain

>Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk> writes:
>> So what do vegetarian trolls eat instead of billy goats?
>Triffids and ents.
> Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | 

Dryads and hamadryads? Just a suggestion. 

Regards
Joanne

PS that's a better reason for no Entwives than the one given by 
Treebeard.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:16:48 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! <grin>
Message-ID: <19990215221648.24290.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain

Unless, of course, someone out there doesn't like the obvious. But there 
are those of us who will feel a little cheated if Avon doesn't bump into 
Sam Vimes at some point.

Indulge us, pretty please? (Don't tell me to write it myself - <smile> 
I'm an omnivore.)

Regards
Joanne


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:02:48 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation
Message-ID: <36C8B5A8.95CE5075@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<unlurking>
Greetings, all! I am new to this list, but I have read all of the '98 digests, and
have enjoyed all of your comments. It's great to know there are other B7 fans out
there; would you believe that I have never actually met anyone else who has ever
seen an episode (except for my best friend, who does not actually count, since I
basically shoved it down her throat)? Anyroad, I have been tempted out of lurkdom
by a few thoughts on this fascinating thread:

Pherber@aol.com wrote:

> storm@catchnet.com.au writes:
>
> << I always wondered why the Federation did not try to condition Avon, in an
>  attempt to rehabilitate him in order to retain his highly rated skills.>>

<snip for brevity>

> Possibilities:
> 1.) Avon's mind resists "adjustment," like Vila's.
> 2.)  Using the (apparently drastic) treatment applied to Blake might adversely
> affect his desirable technical skills.

<snip again>

> 3.) Something in Avon's personal and/or political background makes it
> politically impossible to justify conditioning him (with the attendant risk
> that he might break out of it at some point in future).

Good possibilities all; but I would like to offer what I think is a simpler
solution: cost.

Vila probably had only relatively simple treatments like aversion therapy, but
memory modification like Blake's seems to have been difficult and unreliable, and
therefore probably time-consuming and expensive as well. I seem to recall that
Blake was watched; they certainly kept supporting the false memories by sending
him fake vis-tapes from his brother and sister. The difficulty and expense of the
treatments would have been justified by the political necessity of getting him to
publicly denounce the rebellion. Political necessity, again, was the justification
for the memory modifications of the children and the sham trial. Blake was
unusually visible and required an unusual solution. He was dangerous dead or
alive.

With regard to Avon, however, he does not appear to have been of any public note,
and so these extreme types of solutions would not have been necessary; nor would
it seem that he was of any particular value to the Federation (indeed, his
attitude seems to support the idea that he considered himself undervalued and
possibly resented it); however, simple conditioning would not have been
sufficient; memory modification would have been required to prevent him from
finding out that Anna was alive, and compromising her identity as Bartolomew.
Transportation to Cygnus Alpha would have been simpler and more cost-effective,
and I doubt that memory modification was ever considered for him. Even if it had
been, I believe it has been mentioned on this list that Anna might have had
something to do with his sentence, not only to protect herself, but to protect
Avon; and she would certainly be aware that he would abhor having his mind
tampered with. Alive and with his mind intact, he still had a chance at a future.
(Now there's a thought: the idea has been raised that there was a plot to free
Blake from the London; what if the plot was really Bartolomew pulling strings to
get _Avon_ off the London?)

All of the above, of course, IMHO.

Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:14:13 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation
Message-ID: <19990215231414.27880.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain

>"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila

No need, Mistral. That's so plausible an explanation that I think I 
remember reading others coming to a similar conclusion. The more money 
spent on keeping people in line, the less to be used to line the pockets 
of Servalan and other like-minded members of the Federation hierarchy.

Welcome to the list.

Regards
Joanne


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:16:44 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Fannishness
Message-ID: <199902152117_MC2-6A9A-3CF1@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Neil wrote:
>It's 'fun, because...'.  It's the 'because' that interests me.  
>Unearthing the 'because' can be... well, fun, actually.

Hmmm.  This sounds like those "analyse the humour in Twelfth Night"
questions one used to get in O-level English.  I refused to do them,
arguing that humour is that which is lost in the analysis.

But I admit that it's fun trying to come up with a rational explanation
inside canon for something so preposterous it could only be caused by
real-life constraints.  Sort of crossword-solving fun.

Harriet

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:02:46 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fannishness
Message-ID: <36C8DFD5.2417@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Neil Faulkner wrote:
-
> A conclusion I reached years ago.  Or rather, lots of things are fun, but
> nothing is _simply_ fun and nothing else.  It's 'fun, because...'.  It's the
> 'because' that interests me.  Unearthing the 'because' can be... well, fun,
> actually.

Okay, now that you put it that way... I believe in keeping characters in
character. If one can expand it out beyond the canon, fine. In fact, I'm
outraging a number of Sherlock Holmes fans and delighting others by
setting a story with him and Irene Adler in the days of their youth. But
I feel Canon should be kept in mind, because otherwise you aren't
writing "the" characters Avon and Vila, you are just using those names
on very differnt people.
I have fun writing pastiches and fanfic, because I like writing, but in
writing for a fan audience, one has to spend less time on explanations
and more time exploring. It's well and good to write essays about why
this character may act the way he does, but it's more intriguing to show
why.
And in the case of a comic fanfic like the Flat Robin, it's the interest
and challenge of mixing two very different ideas of the universe
together and watching them go bang on the street of Alchemists.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:35:52 PST
From: "Penny Dreadful" <pdreadful@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: arkaroo@hothail.com, egomoo@geocities.com
Subject: [B7L] Flat Robin 22 (The Real Thing This Time) by Penny
Message-ID: <19990216023554.7361.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain

***

"I tell you, Supreme Commander, I was not in my right mind!"

"How unprecedented." Servalan marched rapidly up the road that led away 
from The Mended Drum and toward the outskirts of Ankh-Morpork, her 
gold-hungry Mob still at her heels and her henchman at her side, now 
over his frog trip and back in a comfortably familiar state of violent 
agitation. Servalan punched him in the arm as they hurried along. He 
looked around for someone to kick in retaliation, but his mutoids had 
deserted, and all the members of the Mob within reach looked like they 
might not take it so amicably. So he shoved his hands deeper into the 
pockets of his newly-confiscated robe and glared hatefully at the 
cobblestones stretching out in front of him, hoping for a rat or a 
beggar.

"They shouted at me! They abandoned me! They pushed me into my salad!" 
Travis raged. "After all I've done for them, the ungrateful--" His right 
hand in its pocket wrapped around one of the sausages that had come with 
the garment and squeezed the stuffing out of it. His left found the 
flask of scumble. 

"After all you've *done* for them?" Servalan asked, obviously spoiling 
for a fight. "Give me a list. No, better yet don't, I'm *sure* I don't 
want to know. Well, they should be easy enough to track down and 
terminate once we've got a garrison set up here. After all, how many 
bloodsucking supersoldiers could there be on a world of this size?"

"I wouldn't even care to hazard a guess, Supreme Commander." His left 
hand, seemingly of its own volition, fished the flask out of its pocket 
and held it up in front of his eyes. He unscrewed the top and took a 
tentative sniff. 

"Eurgh, Travis, your nostril hairs are falling out," Servalan said. 
"What *is* that?"

"I don't know, Supreme Commander. Smells kind of appley. Alcoholic 
beverage of some sort I suppose." He raised the flask to his lips. 
Behind him the Mob inhaled collectively, as if Evel Kneivel were 
starting up the ramp.

"Do you really think you should be drinking on the job, Travis?" 
Servalan demanded.

Travis took a big swig of scumble. "Alcohol has no effect on my 
metabolism, Supreme Commander," he said smugly, as steam rose slowly 
from his ears. The Mob were deathly silent now, except for the sound of 
sandals on pavement and the clatter of weaponry. Ladies and Gentlemen, 
Evel has now left terra firma. Let us pray.

"Well then why are you *drinking* it, you idiot?" Servalan demanded. 
"and for that matter how do you know it won't interact unexpectedly with 
those little green pills you took earlier?"

The Mob gasped. It knew there was only one kind of 'little green pill' 
on the discworld, and it knew the old adage:

"Scumble and beer
 Make you feel queer;
 Scumble and wine
 Make you feel fine;
 Scumble and gin
 Make your mouth grin;
 But scumble and frog
 Make you wake up stark naked and covered with strange tattoos face-down 
in the middle of the local bog
 (And that's if you're lucky)!"

"What little green pills?" Travis asked nonchalantly, and took another 
sip.

***

"Tarriel (tar-ri-el) n.," Ponder Stibbons read. "1. A kind of cheese, 
having green veins and a distinctive odour, and which will spontaneously 
combust in the presence of air. 2. An inexpensive prostitute (obs)." 
Ponder tried unsuccessfully *not* to imagine what Hex would want with 
either of these, before willing himself to read on. "3. A small woodland 
creature (sci. animalia cordata mammalia carnivora rodenta viciousa 
buggerus) alleged to be named in honour of the last words of its 
discoverer, Archduke Pigeon of Maul, after his beaters and bearers asked 
him if he did not want to stop their expedition for the night, as it was 
growing too dark to see the treacherous terrain they were traversing, 
which are supposed to have been, 'Tarry? Hell no, not with those evil 
little woodland creatures I don't know the name of staring at me from 
high in the treetops, just waiting for me to let my guard down, have you 
seen the teeth on those bastards?' whereupon he stepped into a gorge and 
had been consumed in his entirety by the tarriels before the beaters and 
bearers could lower themselves to retrieve his corpse."

Ponder decided to hope against hope that Hex was hankering for either 
strong cheese or an obsolete harlot.

***

"Well, I suppose there's nothing for it but to send a delegation down to 
the Mended Drum to tell that harlot she'll have to move her vehicle," 
Ridcully said. "Until then I must say I for one won't feel comfortable 
walking from the Dining Hall to the Student's Quarters."

"I never do," said the Lecturer in Recent Runes. "The trip back is 
always a treat, though."

"I *mean* for fear the thing might fall on me," said Ridcully. "Anyhow, 
imagine what the impact could do to poor Mr. Modo's heart."

"Punch it quite a ways into the topsoil, I'll wager," said the Dean. "Is 
magic an option here?"

"One wrong rune levitating an object of that magnitude and the principle 
of leverage dictates your brains would be in very low, very fast orbit," 
said the Senior Wrangler. "I'll volunteer. What's a harlot?"

"Five dollars, Senior Wrangler, same as in town," said the Bursar.

***

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:14:01 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Yet another Flat Robin (16), this time by Jacqueline
Message-ID: <36C8E279.5730@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jacqueline Thijsen wrote:

> > >Apparently this cell was to be filled with an exotic creature
> > >known as a tarriel.
> >
> > The mind reels at the possibilities.
> >
> Well, how else is Hex going to meet Orac and Zen? I really don't feel we
> could properly end this story without those three having contact with each
> other at least once.

Avon is found out to be an 'expert' and is called in to cosult with the
wiards about Hex. Once he realizes what it is, he _has_ to haave it, and
starts hatching a scheme to steal Hex, which he will of course rope Vila
in to. But I have to catch up... Penny, watch some tapes, wread a good
book.... stop putting out 3 chapters a day! :^) 

Merrily befuddled,
Avona

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:30:01 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] OT, Re: Zen is not a IT !!!
Message-ID: <36C8E639.E93@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Bluidy 'ell, all this 'e stuff doesn't sound like a  new nuetral gender.
Sounds loike h'an h'interestin' h'accent!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:31:39 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! <grin>
Message-ID: <36C8E69A.D56@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Joanne MacQueen wrote:
> 
> Unless, of course, someone out there doesn't like the obvious. But there
> are those of us who will feel a little cheated if Avon doesn't bump into
> Sam Vimes at some point.
> 
> Indulge us, pretty please? (Don't tell me to write it myself - <smile>
> I'm an omnivore.)
> 
> Regards
> Joanne

Still permitted. Join us... don't be afraid (and this just after I was
begging people to slow down!)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:07:18 PST
From: "Penny Dreadful" <pdreadful@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Yet another Flat Robin (16), this time by Jacqueline
Message-ID: <19990216030718.16441.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain

Avona screamed in agony:

>Penny, watch some tapes, wread a good
>book.... stop putting out 3 chapters a day! :^) 

In my defense, I *have* been posting for two...Arkaroo apparently 
refuses to subscribe to this mailing list on account of its being chock 
full of degenerates or some such...really I've been putting out one 
chapter a day maximum -- but I admit when I get obsessed I lose all 
sense of proportion. Okay, I vow before you all I won't post any more 
Flat Robin until at least two people other than myself and Arkaroo have 
contributed.

--Penny "SuperSpam" Dreadful

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:32:45 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin-
Message-ID: <19990216033245.22102.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain

Avona wrote:
>Still permitted. Join us... don't be afraid (and this just after I was
>begging people to slow down!)

I would, but I'm beginning to drown in legal matters (not my own, thank 
goodness. It's either feast or famine for us legal and business 
indexers, and right now I'm in danger of becoming Mr Creosote. No one 
mention wafer thin mints!).

So, sorry, Penny, it won't be me who is one of the others contributing 
before you allow yourself to do so again. Don't know if I can do it 
justice, anyway.

Regards
Joanne


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:45:58 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin-
Message-ID: <36C8F805.65D9@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I shall probably be able to add a new portion to the flat robin
tomorrow-- I've printed it out and shall be reading it tonight and
tomorrow morning until I am completely on top of things-- which probably
means Jacqueline will turn out 10 new chapters before I get home from
work tomorrow. And perhaps I will be inspired by the question of
vegetarian torlls...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:30:20 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation
Message-ID: <36C9026C.5038@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Afenech wrote:
> 
> Nina said:
> 
> > Given that there's no evidence (within the series, anyway) that
> >conditioning was ever tried on Avon at all ...
> >  Comments, anyone?
> 
> I often wonder if Avon's comment in 'Voice from the past' something along
> the lines of brain-washing being enough to give anyone nightmares might
> not suggest that he did have some personal knowledge of it?
> 
> Pat Fenech

Quite possible. I, for one, doubt they wouldn't want to get more
information out of their prisoner once he was arrested, for one thing.
And then, there weren't any other white collar crooks as far as we could
tell on the London. Sending him on a one-way trip rather than trying to
rehabilitate him on a first offense is odd. They do have rehabilitation
centers (which Blake's Freedom Party used to raid), which indicates it
wouldn't be _that_ rare a procedure. Why try to rehabilitate an ordinary
thief and not a computer engineer? 
Avon's attitude and will that kept him awake for so long on Ultraworld,
kept him silent under torture, etc. probably made it clear early on that
the brainwashing wasn't working.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:04:35 +1000
From: Taina Nieminen <tenzil@bigpond.com>
To: "'B7'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Orac, Zen, pronouns and gender (getting somewhat OT)
Message-ID: <01BE59BD.AEC37A50@TENZIL>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Although I was born in Australia and have lived all my
life here, my native language is Finnish. Finnish has two
singular third person pronouns - a polite one used to 
refer to people, and a vulgar one used to refer to animals
and objects.

Orac is sentient (in my opinion anyway) and should
be referred to by the polite pronoun. Zen is probably
sentient (in my opinion) and should also get the
polite pronoun. Both are more than objects or things.
Avon would probably disagree, though, as would some
people on this list, no doubt.

As people have pointed out, the problem with English
is that unless you are going to use "it", or be
ungrammatical and use the plural "they" to refer to
one person/AI, the only other options are "he" and
"she" which are gender specific (unless you take the
view that "he" is inclusive of males and females, which
is not very popular these days).

>From my experience, though, I think that many native
English speakers would have great difficulty with a
non-gender specific pronoun for people, if one was to
be introduced. I took some Chinese language classes
when I was at university, and nearly everyone in the
class had great difficulty in coming to terms with the
non-gender specific singular third person pronoun used
in Mandarin. ("But how do you know if you're talking
about a man or a woman?") Gender is so ingrained into
people's images of other human beings. What's one of
the first questions people ask about a newborn baby?

So, those people who see Zen and Orac as sentient
beings (ie as people rather than things) need to apply
a gender. Their voices are male, so the male gender
is the obvious one to apply. I think this is what underlies
the he-or-it argument - whether the AIs are "people" or
"things" - rather than it just being a question of 
linguistically appropriate pronouns.

The rural Finnish dialect that I speak rarely uses
the polite pronoun, therefore everyone is "it". In this
language, the whole Zen and it-or-he question is completely
beside the point grammatically, but the question of whether
Zen and Orac are people or things is not.

Taina

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 00:10:16 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation
Message-ID: <cbe923ba.36c8fdb8@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 2/15/99 2:09:38 PM Mountain Standard Time,
Fenech@onaustralia.com.au writes:

<< I often wonder if Avon's comment in 'Voice from the past' something along
 the lines of brain-washing being enough to give anyone nightmares might
 not suggest that he did have some personal knowledge of it? >>

Certainly, he must have been interrogated to some degree after he was
captured, so he could explain his empathy for what Blake had gone through.
Also, his cynicism about the government in general seems to indicate that he
was more aware of at least some of the nastier details than the average
citizen, though it's hard to say whether he had that knowledge before they
left Earth or he got it from Orac later.

In a message dated 2/15/99 4:00:59 PM Mountain Standard Time,
mistral@ptinet.net writes:

<< With regard to Avon, however, he does not appear to have been of any public
note,
 and so these extreme types of solutions would not have been necessary; nor
would
 it seem that he was of any particular value to the Federation (indeed, his
 attitude seems to support the idea that he considered himself undervalued and
 possibly resented it) >>

How do you square this with Vila's statement in 'Spacefall' that Avon is "the
number 2 man in the Federated worlds" with regard to computers?  I agree that
Avon does not seem to have a had a high-profile public presence and cost-
effectiveness was very probably a factor in his sentence, but only one
element, IMHO.  It still seems likely to me that if he was in fact as
brilliant as Vila's statement suggests, his permanent removal would represent
a serious loss of future revenue potential for his Federation masters.  That
would be balanced against a combination of the cost of conditioning him, the
expected longevity and stability of the conditioning, the cost of future
surveillance and maintenance treatment, and the risks associated with him
shaking off the conditioning at any point.  Another factor (which could be
argued either way) might include the value to the administration of making an
example of him (rather like Blake), to potential imitators in the technical /
academic world, if not to the public at large, as to what happens to
troublemakers who aren't quite as clever as they think they are.  

Nina

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:46:41 +1030
From: "Dunne, Martin Lydon - DUNML001" <DUNML001@students.unisa.edu.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Too much caffeine
Message-ID: <AE6AF4DBBDA8D111B1D200AA00DD6129015E944D@EXSTUDENT4.Magill.UniSA.Edu.Au>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

I appologise about the lack of focus here, but this all came out in one long
thread-

I have been wondering, what is the difference between Our Heroes, and say
Travis' crimmers or Baben's crew?
Is it that Our Heroes are necessarily good and just, or just that we know our
psychopaths better than the rival criminals?
Would people watch "Travis' Five"? Is there fan fiction about these other
crews?

Is the "Three Day Sweats" or "Terran Auge" in Killer supposed to be the same
passing effect as the "Cygnus Malady"? A brief discomfort on leaving the Solar
System, but ultimately it passes, it bears a resemblance. This would mean that
none of the crew who suffer from this have been in deep space before. This is
only possible if, presumably, none of them even know of this disease. Gan comes
down with it, and he is not even from Earth!

Further, Why would the aliens from Cygnus 61 send the Wanderer back to
Federation space at a point it was impossible to reach by its own? This tips
off Blake, but not the Fosferon base, they don't have Orac. Did the aliens know
this, or simply expect the humans to fall into their trap?

What on EARTH (and off) did Robert Holmes mean by the word "Constellation"? As
I and astronomers understand it, it is an apparent pattern of stars caused by
their lining up due to a unique point of reference (the Earth). However, Holmes
always (and I use the term in the strongest sense) used it as a spatial
location. WHY? Does anyone have any advances on this?

Why does Gan ask what the women/ghosts in Duel look like when he was the first
to see them? Is this another time of victimising the big slow one just to make
the others look better? The programme guide claims he (David Jackson) did not
like the limiter, and implies this is why he left. Was it his choice, or was he
simply the most expendable member of the crew?

When they mine the radioactive stuff in Horizon, Ro claims it is for the new
intergalactic ships. Is this a lead into the intergalactic war? Was the
Federation planning its own attack on Andromeda?

Why was the fight between Avon and the computer dude cut in the 90's release of
Space Fall? To get a lower rating? This now makes "The Beginning" of some
value! I dubbed the fight, minus cuts to the flight deck and the prisoners
breaking out, after the end of my copy of Space Fall. It works as a continuous
scene. WHO did the editing for the 80's releases? Is there a special place in
HELL reserved for them?

Was Time Squad really shot first? This would explain the highly experimental
(getting into character) feel of the episode. Were any others filmed out of
running order?

Does anyone else feel that the Platonic Forms of the series would have a
different running order? Terminal seems to be a watershed, not just the events
but also Avon's decision to follow the trail before the story starts. Wouldn't
Rumours of Death be more apt to immediately precede this than Death-Watch?

Is Death-Watch the most unusually filmed episode? As opposed to special
effects, the camera work during the duel is pretty extraordinary. And then we
get a shot THROUGH Orac! Was there anything else in the series that was as
strange?

Does Avon really have time, while trapped on Terminal and having let everyone
down, to give himself a new hair do? Isn't that a little vain? I could
empathise that he might be sick of the bowl cut , BUT......? 
 
What is the motivation in the third season? The Federation is smashed and
little empires are growing. They have lost one idealist, leaving one more, two
computers, two criminals. One more criminal and a blood feudist join up, and
proceed to get in lots of trouble- WHY? Is it as Tarrant says in Volcano, that
they are better equipped than other mercenary groups- they are now a mercenary
group?

The motivation in fourth season is easier to understand- desperation. Everytime
they fly anywhere, Pursuit ships attack, never challenge, and just fire. Why
then does Soolin join them? She claims she sells her skill- what does she ever
receives? A miserable death, making Servalan rich and the Scorpio a great ship.
Doesn't she know that people who hang out with this mob DIE HORRIBLY and NEVER
GET RICH?!?!?!!??!!?!??!??

Martin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:14:53 +0100
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! <grin>
Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F10FB1B@NL-ARN-MAIL01>
Content-Type: text/plain

Avona wrote:
> > 
> > Unless, of course, someone out there doesn't like the obvious. But there
> > are those of us who will feel a little cheated if Avon doesn't bump into
> > Sam Vimes at some point.
> > 
> > Indulge us, pretty please? (Don't tell me to write it myself - <smile>
> > I'm an omnivore.)
> > 
> > Regards
> > Joanne
> 
> Still permitted. Join us... don't be afraid (and this just after I was
> begging people to slow down!)
> 
Hmm, I suppose omnivores can join us. But only after fasting for a day and
swearing they will mend their evil ways with one hand in Offlers mouth.
Highpriestess Penny will then graciously grant permission to submit
something to this holy vegetarian crusade.

Jacqueline
Penny's main acolyte.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:08:28 +0100
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin-
Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F10FB1A@NL-ARN-MAIL01>
Content-Type: text/plain

Avona said:

> I shall probably be able to add a new portion to the flat robin
> tomorrow-- I've printed it out and shall be reading it tonight and
> tomorrow morning until I am completely on top of things-- which probably
> means Jacqueline will turn out 10 new chapters before I get home from
> work tomorrow. And perhaps I will be inspired by the question of
> vegetarian torlls...
> 
I sure hope so <g>. And I have an unfair advantage over you: I'm still home
sick, but now feeling good enough to write. As for Avon meeting Sam Vimes: I
haven't been able to think of a funny way for that to happen yet, and that's
why I had Avon repeating PD's ad lib from "Guards Guards!". The whole
walking into the bar scene was written pretty much because of that. But
Penny's version is better and I hereby declare this alternate universe to be
the only true one: the Mended Drum is empty for the very first time in its
long and distinguished existance, Vila is off to help Death open it's wine
cellar and I am now eagerly waiting to find out what the effects of scumble
when combined with recent exposure to frog pills will be on Travis. Will we
see another name change?
So for all of you other writers, please substitute part 20 with the
alternate story. I think I will concentrate on Blake's singing lessons.

Jacqueline

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:17:12 +0100
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Re: Fannishness
Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F10FB1C@NL-ARN-MAIL01>
Content-Type: text/plain

Harriet wrote:

> But I admit that it's fun trying to come up with a rational explanation
> inside canon for something so preposterous it could only be caused by
> real-life constraints.  Sort of crossword-solving fun.
> 
Actually, I only think it's fun if the rational explanation itself is
totally preposterous :-).

Jacqueline

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 07:28:20 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Zen is not a IT !!!
Message-ID: <008c01be597e$14a40f00$811cac3e@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith wrote:
>The Altas were, as their name implies, altered human beings.  Most members
of
>that society were human.  I don't see a computer with human sentiments as
>impossible.


That's not how I perceive the derivation of the name.  I always thought it
was from the Latin altus, for 'high' (as in altitude, altimeter).  The name
reflected their technological superiority, or their own inflated opinion of
themselves.

>However, it is the fact that Zen was fitted with a limiter (I think the
>reference is in Time Squad) that convinces me.  Why the need to limit Zen,
>unless he was capable of independent thought.

Zen's limiter is not a fact, it was a speculation voiced by Gan.  If you
think of Zen as an advanced artificial intelligence, it could be capable of
independent thought whilst still being an it.  Avon in Harvest of Kairos
described Zen as 'a capacity charged brain', whatever that might be. (Ben
Steed strikes again...)

I notice that in the Sevencyclopaedia I consistently refer to Zen and Orac
(and also Gambit) as it.  Does anyone think of Gambit as a she?  How did
Belkov refer to it?


Neil

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 01:26:54 PST
From: "Penny Dreadful" <pdreadful@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Too much caffeine
Message-ID: <19990216092655.13622.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain

Martin the Coffee Achiever inquired:

>I have been wondering, what is the difference between Our Heroes, 
>and say Travis' crimmers or Baben's crew?
>Is it that Our Heroes are necessarily good and just, or just that
>we know our psychopaths better than the rival criminals?
>Would people watch "Travis' Five"?

I would! I would! Mmm, maybe I wouldn't. Bayban's crew actually I could 
see in the role, Bayban being Avon seen in entirely unflattering 
dramatic light. We see too little of the lot of them to decide, really. 
But Travis is always made explicitly *nasty* in a way Avon at his worst 
never comes close to, though his Crimmers could be very complex 
misunderstood individuals for all we know. Stupid as bricks thoug, poor 
buggers...what I want to know is, did anyone ever attempt to explain how 
he lost his primo hand-picked mutoid crew and picked up these goofy 
Crimmers between 'Trial' and 'Hostage'? How long was the interim 
supposed to have been?

>What on EARTH (and off) did Robert Holmes mean by the word 
"Constellation"?

Well, let us *graciously* assume he wasn't as absolutely clueless as I 
have known more than one BSc to be..."constellation" means "bunch of 
stars", basically, so perhaps in the (I estimate) several hundred years 
since interstellar flight was achieved the word has naturally taken on a 
different definition befitting mankind's broader perspective. (Note to 
Neil: I don't actually *buy* this...)

>When they mine the radioactive stuff in Horizon, Ro claims it is for 
the new
>intergalactic ships. Is this a lead into the intergalactic war? Was the
>Federation planning its own attack on Andromeda?

That's an intriguing thought.

>Does Avon really have time, while trapped on Terminal and having
>let everyone down, to give himself a new hair do? Isn't that a 
>little vain? 

He feels it's his selfless duty to Womankind.

--Penny "LCD" Dreadful

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 01:31:29 PST
From: "Penny Dreadful" <pdreadful@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: RE: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin-
Message-ID: <19990216093129.8913.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain

>Highpriestess Penny will then graciously grant permission to submit
>something to this holy vegetarian crusade.
>
>Jacqueline
>Penny's main acolyte.

Oh boy, I've got an acolyte! Well now I almost hesitate to mention that 
as far as I know Arkaroo subsists on naught but pepperoni Pizza Pops, 
canned tuna, and the Souls of the Damned.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 01:39:59 PST
From: "Penny Dreadful" <pdreadful@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: RE: [B7L] Oh, come on, it has to happen! -grin-
Message-ID: <19990216093959.28397.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain

Jacqueline said:

>I had Avon repeating PD's ad lib from "Guards Guards!".

Okay, I explained my allusions, now you explain yours. Please!

--Penny "Not The 'PD' Mentioned Above" Dreadful

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:15:48 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation
Message-ID: <19990216201548.63166@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Tue, Feb 16, 1999 at 12:10:16AM -0500, Pherber@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 2/15/99 4:00:59 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> mistral@ptinet.net writes:
> 
> << With regard to Avon, however, he does not appear to have been of any public
> note,
>  and so these extreme types of solutions would not have been necessary; nor
> would
>  it seem that he was of any particular value to the Federation (indeed, his
>  attitude seems to support the idea that he considered himself undervalued and
>  possibly resented it) >>
> 
> How do you square this with Vila's statement in 'Spacefall' that Avon is "the
> number 2 man in the Federated worlds" with regard to computers?

Vila was talking through his hat.  He based his statements on the fact
of the fraud, and that Avon nearly got away with it.  Therefore Vila
deduced that Avon was fantastic with computers, and he also deduced
that the fact that Avon was caught meant that he was caught by someone
better at computers than he was.  Therefore "obviously" Avon was #2
and the guy who caught him was #1.

But *I* think Vila didn't know what he was talking about.  For one
thing, IMHO, it is easier to catch a cracker than to be a cracker;
guess I'm taking an analogy with burglary - you don't have to be a
burglar to catch a burglar, you just have to be observant.  Yes, to
*track down* a cracker would take skill, but we also have the manpower
thing; Avon was one person, but those who caught him might have been a
team, working all hours.  All the systems would be on *their* side,
Avon would be working at a disadvantage.  So my *feeling* is, that
even if Avon *was* caught through the fraud, rather than because of
Bartolemew, that doesn't *necessarily* mean that the person or persons
who caught him were more brilliant than he was.  That's one thing.

The other thing is that once you get that brilliant, talking about #1
and #2 is just silly.  You can't rank skill like that, as if they were
playing some computer Olympics.  The most I would be prepared to say
would be that Avon was one of the top ten computer people in the
Federation.  And that's all.  Maybe the fellow who caught him was
another one of the top ten, or maybe not.

Sorry if this just came bursting out, I've been irritated by this talk
of #1 and #2 ever since I read a story where the #1 programmer turns
up and Avon is all resentful of e's status.  Sorry, can't remember the
story much.  Just that it irritated me.

Kathryn A.
-- 
 _--_|\	    | Kathryn Andersen		<kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/      \    | 		http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/    | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
      v	    |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |	-> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #63
*************************************