From: Tyagi@HouseOfKaos.Abyss.com Subject: a.m Tyagi Divination1 Lines: 130 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 94 21:44:31 PST From: Tyagi Nagasiva (Ed./Contributor) To: Alt.magick Date: 9212.29 Re: Divination Amythyst (JTraub) asked me to post this conversation regarding divination to alt.magick for review and comment. Much has been edited out. It occurred on IRC. I edited it before presenting it here, attempting to make it more approachable to the alt.magick crowd. Email me for extraneous details. :> __________________________________________________________ T = Tyagi Am = Amythyst li = li^ir Cor = Corack Hama = Hamachi Tyagi: If ritual is divination and is the context of a magical act... then what is the act itself? Amythyst: I don't follow you thyagi. T: If ritual is the peel, what is the banana? Am: The form of the divination, be it tarot or runes in that case would be the magical act. (under your definition of ritual of course :) T: Not my definition of divination, however: divination = the creation of the divine Am: Your concept of divination doesn't make sense to me. T: What is imagination? Am: Divine isn't something that can be created, it's something that is. :) I understand where you're deriving the word from. I don't understand 'creating the divine' T: Who said that? I said divination = the creation of the divine Am: Right, and 'creation of the divine' doesn't not make any sense to me. li^ir: thyagi: what is the divine? *** Action: li^ir doesn't see it as creation either Am: To me everything is already divine. (with divine meaning worthy of being given admiration/respect) T: li, you define it li: to [me] that's kinda silly since it's all equally divine, sublime, or mundane T: I just calls them as I sees them: divine ation = creation of the divine imagination = creation of the images Corak: I thought divination was the grasping of a thread in creation, not the creation... T: Oh, no; imagination is that which CREATES images, no? so divination... is that which CREATES the divine li: try: [ation = (?)] calling upon Am: I don't actually see imagination as creating images, so much as formulating symbols for concepts.. (these symbols don't have to be images (ie visual)) Hamachi: Or is imagination simply the place where one recognizes new images that appear? li: thyagi: you're playing silly word games :) T: No, li, I'm remembering my dictionary. Am: Th, try this instead. Imagination is that which EXPLORES your internal images. Divination is that which explores the divine. (and since everything is divine, divination is the exploration of the universe) *** Action: Corak thinks Tyagi likes "ation" over much... T: Hama, can't be, or else we'd never have new ideas. Hama: I don't think someone can just go and creat a new image whenever they want..... T: Am, my bible [Am. Heritage, no relation ;>] says, I'm sure, that imagination is 'image' 'creation' Hama: I think of the problem-solving process as one where I have a problem and isolate exactly where the difficulty is.... perhaps a hole in a design....and suddenly an idea for a way to fill that hole just pops into mind li: th, prakriti T: Am, I don't know if 'explore' can be derived from imagination like 'creation' can li: exploration is [what,] then? Am: (exploring the concept of exploring of course) :) Hama: exploring internal images? T: Who's got a better bible than mine? *** Action: li^ir goes check is unabridged webster Am: (or the act of exploring what it means to explore) Hama: Hmmmmmmm, very hard to tell if my imagination is really finding new stuff of just rehashing old stuff. Am: There's nothing new under the sun, just new ways of putting it all together. Hama: I can't imagine everything being old rehashed stuff, given that we have to learn it SOMEWHERE and seeing as people nowadays have images or knowledge that weren't available centuries ago.... T: [reading from his bible] "ation = the act of; doing" Am: So then divination is acting divine. T: Imagination = doing images; the act of imaging: divination = doing divinity; the act of divining Am: That fits with with my concept of exploring. Hama: ation = izement? ;) Am: Since if divine is everything, then by being divine, you are being everything :) T: Yes! So if ritual is divination, doing divinity, then what is magick? li: [reading from HIS bible] from latin divinatio the facility of foreseeing from divinatus pp. of divinare to foresee Am: 'doing divinity'?? sounds KINKY thyagi :) Hama: grin Amyth! Now you thinkin like me T: Prometheus always got the better propaganda. Am: Under [your] definition of divination, I don't believe the ritual could be divination. Actually,... I take that back. If the ritual is divination, then the magical act is whatever act you take bringing you closer to the divine. Since everything is divine, then EVERY action is bringing you 'closer' to the divine and thus every action is divination. T: Closer? Ain't we divine already? [And] what is magick? Am: Closer to being expressing the divinity within ourselves.... The magic becomes whatever action we are doing at the moment. Thus EVERY action becomes magical just by virtue of being done, since by doing anything we express the divinity that is us. T: Divination is the context of divinity and magick is the act of being god? Or, perhaps Crowley would have said, 'of being Done'. li: from latin divinatio the facility of foreseeing from divinatus pp. of divinare to foresee; imagination from imaginatio imagination from imagerinari to image, from imago, an image *** Action: Amythyst's mind is still bending from what I just said tyagi. Am: It puts an entire new light onto living. Hama: Interesting Amyth! Kinda reminds me of Alan Watts' explanation of the word karma T: YES! EXACTLY! Much is missing from the original conversation, yet this file contains the gist of the theory. Tyagi NagaSiva Tyagi@HouseofKAOs.Abyss.com === From Tyagi@HouseOfKaos.Abyss.com Sat Feb 26 06:47:44 1994 From: Tyagi@HouseOfKaos.Abyss.com To: ceci@lysator.liu.se Subject: a.m Tyagi Divination3 (NOTE: there may be a duplication!) Lines: 40 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 94 21:46:53 PST X-Origin: The Portal System (TM) From: Tyagi Nagasiva To: Alt.magick Date: 9212.01 Re: Divination 'A vehicle' is a certain type of model. Divination systems are tools, and they can also be portrayed as mirrors or reflection-devices (I've called 'invisible mirrors'). Different ways of looking at these systems help us to understand them and their relationship to us. As far as divination is concerned, I like to think that the 'power' or 'intelligence' behind my tarot cards is my subconscious mind, which is just another way that I see the divine Other. Many theologians and some occultists would not agree with me, however. Even though I don't believe that, I do think that such a belief can be useful/valuable. The maya of separation is a very important source of instruction. Personalities ARE very distinct, though to me they seem quite interconnected/interdependent. I don't SEE the connections between myself (through my unconcious mind) and the 'arranger' of the tarot cards. There seems to be a 'presence' (which we might compare to the 'telepresence' of VR) behind the cards, attempting to communicate to me regarding my present circumstances and showing me alternatives to how I currently view myself or different perspectives on events/people/objects. When I can see a distinction between myself and all else I can determine whether or not I will focus inward or outward. Sometimes one direction rather than the other can lead to powerful insights which apply (and connect) to the other direction/realm. All of this is my way of saying that the Many/All is in no way superior to the One, even if I find value in interacting with One more than the Other (or vice versa ;>). Tyagi NagaSiva Tyagi@HouseofkaoS.Abyss.com