From: Tyagi@HouseOfKaos.Abyss.com
Subject: a.m Tyagi Divination1
Lines: 130
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 94 21:44:31 PST
From: Tyagi Nagasiva (Ed./Contributor)
To: Alt.magick
Date: 9212.29
Re: Divination
Amythyst (JTraub) asked me to post this conversation regarding
divination to alt.magick for review and comment. Much has been
edited out. It occurred on IRC. I edited it before presenting it
here, attempting to make it more approachable to the alt.magick
crowd. Email me for extraneous details. :>
__________________________________________________________
T = Tyagi
Am = Amythyst
li = li^ir
Cor = Corack
Hama = Hamachi
Tyagi: If ritual is divination and is the context of a magical act...
then what is the act itself?
Amythyst: I don't follow you thyagi.
T: If ritual is the peel, what is the banana?
Am: The form of the divination, be it tarot or runes in that
case would be the magical act. (under your definition of
ritual of course :)
T: Not my definition of divination, however:
divination = the creation of the divine
Am: Your concept of divination doesn't make sense to me.
T: What is imagination?
Am: Divine isn't something that can be created, it's something that is. :)
I understand where you're deriving the word from. I don't understand
'creating the divine'
T: Who said that? I said divination = the creation of the divine
Am: Right, and 'creation of the divine' doesn't not make any sense to me.
li^ir: thyagi: what is the divine?
*** Action: li^ir doesn't see it as creation either
Am: To me everything is already divine. (with divine meaning worthy of
being given admiration/respect)
T: li, you define it
li: to [me] that's kinda silly since it's all equally divine, sublime,
or mundane
T: I just calls them as I sees them: divine ation = creation of the divine
imagination = creation of the images
Corak: I thought divination was the grasping of a thread in creation,
not the creation...
T: Oh, no; imagination is that which CREATES images, no? so divination...
is that which CREATES the divine
li: try: [ation = (?)] calling upon
Am: I don't actually see imagination as creating images, so much as
formulating symbols for concepts.. (these symbols don't have to
be images (ie visual))
Hamachi: Or is imagination simply the place where one recognizes new
images that appear?
li: thyagi: you're playing silly word games :)
T: No, li, I'm remembering my dictionary.
Am: Th, try this instead. Imagination is that which EXPLORES your
internal images. Divination is that which explores the divine.
(and since everything is divine, divination is the exploration of
the universe)
*** Action: Corak thinks Tyagi likes "ation" over much...
T: Hama, can't be, or else we'd never have new ideas.
Hama: I don't think someone can just go and creat a new image whenever
they want.....
T: Am, my bible [Am. Heritage, no relation ;>] says, I'm sure, that
imagination is 'image' 'creation'
Hama: I think of the problem-solving process as one where I have a
problem and isolate exactly where the difficulty is.... perhaps
a hole in a design....and suddenly an idea for a way to fill that
hole just pops into mind
li: th, prakriti
T: Am, I don't know if 'explore' can be derived from imagination like
'creation' can
li: exploration is [what,] then?
Am: (exploring the concept of exploring of course) :)
Hama: exploring internal images?
T: Who's got a better bible than mine?
*** Action: li^ir goes check is unabridged webster
Am: (or the act of exploring what it means to explore)
Hama: Hmmmmmmm, very hard to tell if my imagination is really finding
new stuff of just rehashing old stuff.
Am: There's nothing new under the sun, just new ways of putting it all
together.
Hama: I can't imagine everything being old rehashed stuff, given that
we have to learn it SOMEWHERE and seeing as people nowadays have
images or knowledge that weren't available centuries ago....
T: [reading from his bible] "ation = the act of; doing"
Am: So then divination is acting divine.
T: Imagination = doing images; the act of imaging:
divination = doing divinity; the act of divining
Am: That fits with with my concept of exploring.
Hama: ation = izement? ;)
Am: Since if divine is everything, then by being divine, you are being
everything :)
T: Yes! So if ritual is divination, doing divinity, then what is magick?
li: [reading from HIS bible] from latin divinatio the facility of
foreseeing from divinatus pp. of divinare to foresee
Am: 'doing divinity'?? sounds KINKY thyagi :)
Hama: grin Amyth! Now you thinkin like me
T: Prometheus always got the better propaganda.
Am: Under [your] definition of divination, I don't believe the ritual
could be divination. Actually,... I take that back. If the ritual
is divination, then the magical act is whatever act you take
bringing you closer to the divine. Since everything is divine,
then EVERY action is bringing you 'closer' to the divine and thus
every action is divination.
T: Closer? Ain't we divine already? [And] what is magick?
Am: Closer to being expressing the divinity within ourselves....
The magic becomes whatever action we are doing at the moment.
Thus EVERY action becomes magical just by virtue of being done,
since by doing anything we express the divinity that is us.
T: Divination is the context of divinity and magick is the act of being god?
Or, perhaps Crowley would have said, 'of being Done'.
li: from latin divinatio the facility of foreseeing from divinatus
pp. of divinare to foresee; imagination from imaginatio imagination
from imagerinari to image, from imago, an image
*** Action: Amythyst's mind is still bending from what I just said tyagi.
Am: It puts an entire new light onto living.
Hama: Interesting Amyth! Kinda reminds me of Alan Watts' explanation
of the word karma
T: YES! EXACTLY!
Much is missing from the original conversation, yet this file contains the
gist of the theory.
Tyagi NagaSiva
Tyagi@HouseofKAOs.Abyss.com
===
From Tyagi@HouseOfKaos.Abyss.com Sat Feb 26 06:47:44 1994
From: Tyagi@HouseOfKaos.Abyss.com
To: ceci@lysator.liu.se
Subject: a.m Tyagi Divination3 (NOTE: there may be a duplication!)
Lines: 40
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 94 21:46:53 PST
X-Origin: The Portal System (TM)
From: Tyagi Nagasiva
To: Alt.magick
Date: 9212.01
Re: Divination
'A vehicle' is a certain type of model. Divination systems are tools, and
they can also be portrayed as mirrors or reflection-devices
(I've called 'invisible mirrors'). Different ways of looking
at these systems help us to understand them and their relationship to us.
As far as divination
is concerned, I like to think that the 'power' or 'intelligence' behind
my tarot cards is my subconscious mind, which is just another way that
I see the divine Other. Many theologians and some occultists would not
agree with me, however.
Even though I don't believe that, I do think that such a belief can be
useful/valuable. The maya of separation is a very important source of
instruction. Personalities ARE very distinct, though to me they seem
quite interconnected/interdependent.
I don't SEE the connections between myself (through my unconcious mind)
and the 'arranger' of the tarot cards. There seems to be a 'presence'
(which we might compare to the 'telepresence' of VR) behind the cards,
attempting to communicate to me regarding my present circumstances and
showing me alternatives to how I currently view myself or different
perspectives on events/people/objects.
When I can see a distinction between myself and all else I can
determine whether or not I will focus inward or outward. Sometimes
one direction rather than the other can lead to powerful insights which
apply (and connect) to the other direction/realm.
All of this is my way of saying that the Many/All is in no way superior
to the One, even if I find value in interacting with One more than the
Other (or vice versa ;>).
Tyagi NagaSiva
Tyagi@HouseofkaoS.Abyss.com