From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Mon Sep 2 08:16:17 1996 Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 11:16:12 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #115 tariqas-digest Saturday, 31 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 115 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joshi Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 07:33:41 +0800 Subject: Re: Atheism/Existence of God At 15:21 30/08/96 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Joshi, > Hi Michael:-) There were I felt some flaws in your arguments, but I do not really have time to argue them now:-) yes, I did feel you were being a *wee* bit condesecending but ...it was probably just me:-) As I said, the lesson was transmitted by my ustda/teacher, and I for one, found it inspirational; even before I became muslim, I never doubted the existed of God; He just was not everything that I could see around me. I am a student in Biology, and as such, when I am confornted with the vast array of things that are being discovered everyday, and with the most basic of issues that confound Man to this day despite advances, I ...have to take my hat off:-) I spent the summer working at a research institute where I was helping on a project that was to determine the proteins involved in cellular trafficking from simply one tiney organelle [ orhaneele= mini organ] to another within the cell, which is so minute as to be clearly visible only under the electron microscope. I won't get too technical, but suffice it to say, I have ceased believing in chance; how can I? When everything good and bad comes up as and when it will, true, but later, when I have moved past that point and loked back, esp at something that tremendously and horrifc for me, I can then see the wisdom in it, the *good*...this is not chance; this is not probability; it has to be something more; I do defer to your statement however; I stopped debating years ago, bec I hate to fight:-) maybe I will consider joing an atheist group when my own iimaan is a bit stronger, but I do thank you for your reply. All the best:-) Imaan Imaan Shivani Joshi sci30342@leonis.nus.sg He who painted you all by Himself will not leave you alone in your mad desire. [Jalaluddin Rumi] ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 08:36:35 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Atheism/Existence of God SALAM.Theological or anti-theological polemics are only useful up to a certain point but for some people it is the Devil's workshop.For those who have tasted "dwauq" and who have had innumerable experiences some of which are corroborated by others who happened to be around and everything seems to fall in place then faith is vindicated.And the difference for those who are scriptural theists is that reason does not necessarily demolish their experiences.The Life of Prophet Muhammad the detailed Seeratun Nabi by Shibli Nu'mani , the reading of MishkatMasabih on what he said and did ,the lives of the thousands of saints who were inspired by him is a testimony to the truth of Islam which is implanted deep within the psyche of every human being.And when that human being blossoms into a veritable khalifatuLlah faith becomes Haqqul Yaqeen the reality of certitude and everything , every atom in the universe falls into place.This is what Abdul Qadir Al-Murabit says about the Bootstrap Theory .EVERYTHING CONNECTS WITH EVERYTHING ELSE IN ONE DIVINE TAUHIDIC SCHEME.There is a whole matrix of influences acting on a human being without affecting his moral freedom but after a certain point the human being who has reached realisation influences those factors .Many seekers who have not reached Haqul Yaqeen have mercifully had flashes of this.This is sustained by direct exposure to living saints and pretenders the lives of the latter actually corroborating further the veracity of the former. In Indonesia there is one such living saint known as Tajul Arifeen .He runs a pondok or religious school based on the old educational system of Islam.He is Qadiri Naqshbandi and has hundreds or thousands of murids who live in the Asean region.His father was also a living saint.Hundreds of hardcore addicts have been cured by him. There is some information on another found through searching with the word "Barzakh" But I dont know his background.In this region there have been dozens of such people and their keramah cannot be dismissed by rational considerations.Even the wonder workings of those who use familiar spirits cannot be dismissed by rational consideration.But there is no fine line between the two.It is like comparing darkness to brightness. I know of one fine extremely approachable elder who had been the Chairperson of Roscricrucianism , exposed to Bahaism and all kinds of metaphysical mumbo-jumbo and who is able to explain the differences between Lopsang Rampa kind of fantasy ,that which is worked by sihir , that which is the work of familiar spirits and that which is Islamic keramah .What do you say to a person who is able to transport himself physically from one place to another : YOU KNOW OLD CHAP ACTUALLY THE HUMAN MIND IS ABLE TO SEDUCE YOU.? At 07:33 8/31/96 +0800, you wrote: >At 15:21 30/08/96 -0700, you wrote: >>Hi Joshi, >> >Hi Michael:-) > There were I felt some flaws in your arguments, but I do not really >have time to argue them now:-) yes, I did feel you were being a *wee* bit >condesecending but ...it was probably just me:-) > As I said, the lesson was transmitted by my ustda/teacher, and I for >one, found it inspirational; even before I became muslim, I never doubted >the existed of God; He just was not everything that I could see around me. > I am a student in Biology, and as such, when I am confornted with >the vast array of things that are being discovered everyday, and with the >most basic of issues that confound Man to this day despite advances, I >...have to take my hat off:-) I spent the summer working at a research >institute where I was helping on a project that was to determine the >proteins involved in cellular trafficking from simply one tiney organelle [ >orhaneele= mini organ] to another within the cell, which is so minute as to >be clearly visible only under the electron microscope. > I won't get too technical, but suffice it to say, I have ceased >believing in chance; how can I? When everything good and bad comes up as and >when it will, true, but later, when I have moved past that point and loked >back, esp at something that tremendously and horrifc for me, I can then see >the wisdom in it, the *good*...this is not chance; this is not probability; >it has to be something more; > I do defer to your statement however; I stopped debating years ago, >bec I hate to fight:-) maybe I will consider joing an atheist group when my >own iimaan is a bit stronger, but I do thank you for your reply. All the best:-) >Imaan >Imaan Shivani Joshi >sci30342@leonis.nus.sg > > He who painted you all by Himself will not leave you alone in your mad >desire. [Jalaluddin Rumi] > > > > > ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 18:05:49 -0700 Subject: Paraclete Fariduddein writes: > Here is what the Qur'an says (this is the only possible reference to = this=20 >I am aware of): And remember, Jesus, son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God (sent) to you confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving glad tidings of an Apostle to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "This is evident sorcery!" (Qur'an 61:6) Fariduddein, thanks for the source. i'm sorry for giving the wrong = info. I have contacted a biblical scholar at the Univ. California at = Berkeley to give me etymological and background information on = paracletos both in its Christian and pre-Christian/Hellenistic use. = i'll post again when i receive it. By the way, i have never seen = "periklytos". "Peri" in Greek means something like "abundance", in the = sense of "in excess" or "extension" or "taking everything in, being = around", like what a periscope does. Hmmmm.... sounds like something = related to spirit. But again, i've never seen this word, and i'll look = into it. Blessings, Nur ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 15:57:42 +0800 Subject: Re: Atheism/Existence of God Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu Welcome to Tariqas, br Zainuddin. I enjoyed reading your postings since they touched on subjects closer to home (Asean region). I like to find out more on tasawwuf in Malaysia, the tariqah and if there's any living wali here. So far, I found my infomation from reading and limited conversations. salam maarof On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, you wrote: [...] >In Indonesia there is one such living saint known as Tajul Arifeen .He runs >a pondok or religious school based on the old educational system of Islam.He >is Qadiri Naqshbandi and has hundreds or thousands of murids who live in the >Asean region.His father was also a living saint.Hundreds of hardcore addicts >have been cured by him. >There is some information on another found through searching with the word >"Barzakh" But I dont know his background.In this region there have been >dozens of such people and their keramah cannot be dismissed by rational >considerations.Even the wonder workings of those who use familiar spirits >cannot be dismissed by rational consideration.But there is no fine line >between the two.It is like comparing darkness to brightness. [...] ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 17:08:19 +0800 Subject: Re: Pictures anybody? Hello Michael (the pictured man) :) I know Fariduddien has a Web page, but no picture (sigh). There might a Michael Roland somewhere in a tiny group pix with his teacher in the Barzakh home page. The only picture in Sufi Bookstore is the piercing eyes of Inayat Khan. I have look at picture of Bawa Muhaiyadden, he looked (almost) like me! Vlack skin tone and all... So if you wondered how I look like, that is a "mental photo" of myself. best wishes maarof On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, "Michael J. Moore" wrote: >Hi > >On other occasions I have posted my web page address. This page >contains my picture. But I was thinking it would be fun to >see pictures of other people here. > >Yeah, I know, pictures don't reveal the real person or really >say anything important, but tossing all analysis aside >I just though it would be FUN to see pictures! > >Is any body out there willing to share their web page picture >with us? > >Would anybody like to have their picture on the web? If you send >your picture to me I will scan it and make a page with our >pictures on it. > >If you already have a scanned picture, you could e-mail it to me. > >Is anybody interested? >-- >Cheers, >Michael J. Moore > > >-- >Michael J. Moore > > > ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 21:39:38 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Atheism/Existence of God Salam.The book "Sufism as practised among the Malays" is a useful starting point while one is searching for living Sufis.This book written by Syed Naquib Al Attas and published by Malayan Sociological Research Institute many many years ago.It is still a classic just like the later book by the same author on the subject of Hamzah Fansuri who is the regional equivalent of Mansur Hallaj of Ana'l Haqq fame.Because of Sufism , Malays delved into intricacies of philosophy such as Monism hundreds of years before the English and the Europeans. In the first book mentioned above, we realise that the famous Panglima Salih also known as Kiyai Salih of Batu Pahat fame was a Sufi of the Ahmadiyah Idrisah tariqat which is the most martial of the tariqats.I had the fortune of meeting Syed Mohamed bin Salim Al Attas while he was still alive.He was the founder of the Masjid Ba'Alawie in Singapore and he informed me that after the War , Panglima Salih and a few other penghulus of Batu Pahat came down to see him at his Hillside Drive house near Upper Serangoon Road, Singapore to ask the ijazah to see a certain spiritual formulae perhaps the famous ayat lima.And accordingly Habib Salim gave him the permission.The keramah of Habib Salim is well known in Singapore .He died about 15 years ago.Panglima Salih died in the 1960s. He was famous for fighting against the Communists who fully armed with automatic weapons took advantage of the interregnum after the war to wrest control from the Malays.As recounted by the historian Tregonning in his book History of Malaya , Panglima Salih rose up against the Communists.According to the then published newspaper reports in Jawi the famous flying sword (parang panjang) of Panglima Salih struck terror in the hearts of the armed Communists.Although there are many accounts of the flying sword Kiyai Salih claimed that it was just miraculous khayal because the sword never left his hand.According to the interview conducted between Syed Naquib al Attas and Panglima Salih ,Panglima Salih terrorised the Communists by carrying up two tall coconut trees in their presence.His full story is detailed in a recently published book in Malay.He claimed that Sh.Abdul Qadir Jailani r.a actually materialised in front of him and gave him information about the movements of the Communist.He was also a practitioner of the Ratib Saman (Tariqat Samaniya ?) By the war Malaysia's sole National Hero Mat Kilau who appeared in the flesh 30 to 40 years after he was supposedly buried by the British was also a practitioner of the Ratib Saman.And his stories are equally full of miraculous exploits.It was in Joginder Singh's History of Malaya that I read that the British had killed him and buried him. Among the old well-informed Malays if you talk about selempang merah they almost invariably associate it with Panglima Salih of Batu Pahat fame. Syed Naquib Al Attas of course is the founder of ICSTAD which is a Islamic Institute of Higher Learning.Curiously the famed Sudanese Dr Malik Badri who is exposed to such phenomena is teaching there. He is very learned in Islamic matters and is a Chartered Psychologist and long-standing psychotherapist. Can I end , for the time being with my poem ," Your Destiny's Price " The joys of life are great Thought provoking are its pains But unless you have Allah in mind What truly are your gains? You are unhappy not because of what you know But because of what you dont realise Tis knowing God's Love my dear Which is your destiny's price Fi Amanillah ! At 15:57 8/31/96 +0800, you wrote: > >Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu > >Welcome to Tariqas, br Zainuddin. I enjoyed reading your postings >since they touched on subjects closer to home (Asean region). > >I like to find out more on tasawwuf in Malaysia, the tariqah >and if there's any living wali here. So far, I found my infomation >from reading and limited conversations. > >salam >maarof > >On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, you wrote: >[...] >>In Indonesia there is one such living saint known as Tajul Arifeen .He runs >>a pondok or religious school based on the old educational system of Islam.He >>is Qadiri Naqshbandi and has hundreds or thousands of murids who live in the >>Asean region.His father was also a living saint.Hundreds of hardcore addicts >>have been cured by him. >>There is some information on another found through searching with the word >>"Barzakh" But I dont know his background.In this region there have been >>dozens of such people and their keramah cannot be dismissed by rational >>considerations.Even the wonder workings of those who use familiar spirits >>cannot be dismissed by rational consideration.But there is no fine line >>between the two.It is like comparing darkness to brightness. >[...] > > > ------------------------------ From: pivotal@inxpress.net (Jabriel Hanafi) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 08:50:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Wild musings of Sayeed Someone maybe Woody wrote :>>In our quest to find all answers>>we are posing more questions>and become 'posers' along the way? "I am this." ... "I am that." The art of being capable of participating in an inquiry which by necessity requires posing questions opens perhaps the entire station of listening. Lisening without labels, judgements, and the rest of the baggage. Lisening sacredly. How beautiful from time to time we share. How beautiful to hear an angel's choir, what splender to hear the beloved from the responce of a brother or a sister. Jabriel - ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Pivotal Point Dynamics ------------------------------ From: pivotal@inxpress.net (Jabriel Hanafi) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 08:50:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Wild musings of Sayeed >Sayeed Siddiqui/scnm/Stentor wrote: >> If I accept any other teacher besides the Beloved >> I remain just a student >> If I accept any teacher I might begin to be taught by Allah, If I can accept no teacher but Allah I might think that Truth can be placed in a bottle and be trapped in the plain of the Jinn. Jabriel - ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Pivotal Point Dynamics ------------------------------ From: pivotal@inxpress.net (Jabriel Hanafi) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 08:50:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: carol woodsong 3 >>"Ahhh!! But, this incorporation... this LIVING is most important? So...why >>the focus on "enlightenment"? Is it possible to 'break the knees' as a >>way TO 'realization of God'?" Hi I just got out of the hospitall. All in all I have experienced more physical pain inb the past five weeks than I have in my entire life. What thus far is the result. I no longer lust for power, money, women in a way I did a mere five weeks ago. I am completely out of control all I can turn to is Allah. Security has taken on new dimension. I view each seemingly catastrophic challenge as series of happenings which are hard to describe and yet a gift of extrodinary magnitude. I never thought of Iman as the bending or breaking of one's knees. The metaphor does not seem very appealing. But who cares. Besides the times when the pain is of such a magnitude that I think of checking out the only thing I want with every fiber of my being is to surrender, is to love, is to recieve, is to forgive myself and others, is to learn to pray for all of humanity instead of just myself. The nphrase that Allah works in mysterious ways has now become quite meaningful. I wish I could be more explicit. I wish I could share the experience that I am having with my brothers and sisters in a more meaningful manner. I thank each of you for your prayers. Something wonderful is happening. Love. Jabriel - ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Pivotal Point Dynamics ------------------------------ From: pivotal@inxpress.net (Jabriel Hanafi) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 08:50:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: overwhelmed today How I love to think that from time to time I kiss your soul as I read your words and a smile spreads throughout eterinty and you share in teaching me of life's immensity. I do so love you my friend. Jabriel > - ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Pivotal Point Dynamics ------------------------------ From: Joshi Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:15:22 +0800 Subject: Rumi as salaamu 'alaikum Look not at the body's face, which rots and decays. Look at the spirit's face---may it ever stay fair and lovely! The only thing that will keep a caged bird from trying to escape is ignorance. wasalaam. Imaan Shivani Joshi sci30342@leonis.nus.sg He who painted you all by Himself will not leave you alone in your mad desire. [Jalaluddin Rumi] ------------------------------ From: Joshi Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:15:19 +0800 Subject: Limits. as salaamu 'alaikum "But you run back and forth listening for unusual events, peering into the faces of travellers. 'Why are you looking at me like a madman?' I have lost a Friend. Pls forgive me." [Shaykh Rumi] An accurate reflection of the way I am feeling right now:-) Do not keep company with anyone whose state does not inspire you and whose speech does not lead you to Allah[swt]. [Shaykh Ibn'Ata'Illah] Having taken a first step, it is by placing one foot in front of the other that we advance, and it is by travelling that we arrive. [Gai Eaton-- King of the Castle] wasalaam. Imaan Shivani Joshi sci30342@leonis.nus.sg He who painted you all by Himself will not leave you alone in your mad desire. [Jalaluddin Rumi] ------------------------------ From: pivotal@inxpress.net (Jabriel Hanafi) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 09:23:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Ninety Nine Most Beautiful Names Hello All, I just got back from the hospital yesterday. Thank you for your prayers they have assisted me getting through one of the most incredible series of challenges I have yet faced in my life. The most overwhelming gift has been that of a re-newed experience of faith. Regarding the Ninety Nine Most Beautiful Names as many of you know I have been working on a project which is quite near completion which I have on-goingly through invitation shared with this list. That is to create a personal journal in poetry regarding each of the names. The pagination will be as follows a calligraphy for each of the Names. A personal poem hopefully extending a personal experience of the quality and living presence of the name and a one page description in prose of each of the names. My purpose is to first aquatint a non-Muslim English speaking audience with a taste or a sense of how the middle east approaches the subject of not so much God which is conceivable but the Beloved which is Allah an Unknowable Essence. Unknowable in the sense that Allah exists without similitude, without partners and thus all one can know is through a series of veils which to some degree can be summed up through the Ninety Nine Most Beautiful Names. Thus far the translations extended in English take on a particular mind set which is very difficult to translate in a palatable manner to a European Culture. So how does one approach the name Avenger as well as many other names without glimmers of fanaticism and even with the beauty which is inherent in the Name itself. It is my opinion that this can not be done exorerically through an Islamic Context without a Western Prejudice being catalyzed. Thus the job has been to approach the subject in an esoteric manner. Two years ago I claimed this as my life work along with several other projects including a biography on two different Sisilas and also dealing with names of the Prophet, Peace be upon him. It is my intention to at least complete two of these projects before my time is up. You must understand then that I was overjoyed at hearing the level of p[participation regarding the Ninety Nine Most Beautiful Names when I got home from the hospital. I am three fourth finished with the second draft of the poetry section and half finished with the prose. Because the phonetics differ from Classical Arabic to Turkish to Indian and Pharsie I am at loss as to what to-do in this regard. I would like to begin submitting the prose portion on a one a day or one a week basis if this is all right with the group. In regard to my own project I have written at least three poems on each Name and for those interested I would like to start sending personal e-mails to review each of the three just to get a sense of which people enjoy the most. It must be understood that I am in no way a formal scholar in the matter and while I have a publisher my goal in publishing is simply to catalyze enough interest to wet several true scholars interest so that series of works follow. Please let me know if you would like me start sending the one page prose versions of the names. Is one a day to much or would once a week be a more intelligent use of people's time on this server. Love. Jabriel - ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Pivotal Point Dynamics ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 01:03:28 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Paraclete Dear Nur, Assalamu alaikum, On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Gale wrote: > Fariduddein, thanks for the source. i'm sorry for giving the wrong info. I have contacted a biblical scholar at the Univ. California at Berkeley to give me etymological and background information on paracletos both in its Christian and pre-Christian/Hellenistic use. i'll post again when i receive it. By the way, i have never seen "periklytos". "Peri" in Greek means something like "abundance", in the sense of "in excess" or "extension" or "taking everything in, being around", like what a periscope does. Hmmmm.... sounds like something related to spirit. But again, i've never seen this word, and i'll look into it. "Periklytos" is probably wrong, then... it came from my probably faulty memory, as I am not an expert in this area at all! I remember hearing/reading somewhere that there was a word in Greek very similar in sound to "paracletos" (?) which meant literally "Praised One." I probably remembered the actual word wrong, however (I don't speak a word of Greek). I thought this was mentioned in Jamal Badawi's booklet, "Muhammad in the Bible" (like I mentioned last post), but I found my copy of this booklet and couldn't find it in there (Badawi seems to pretty much exclusively talk about Old Testament references), so my attribution was probably wrong (unless I just missed it this time). I know I saw it somewhere, but can't think of where right now. I am interested in this topic, so I'd be interested in knowing what you find, either way. I realize that most of the arguments in this area are probably by apologists, rather than by scholars (though a person may be both), so a scholarly investigation would be interesting. I'll see if I can find the source where I read about this stuff.... (it was a long time ago). Wassalam, Fariduddien ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 08:15:37 -0700 Subject: Re: Atheism/Existence of God Hello, everybody! Joshi wrote: > > At 15:21 30/08/96 -0700, you wrote: > >Hi Joshi, > > > Hi Michael:-) > There were I felt some flaws in your arguments, but I do not really > have time to argue them now:-) yes, I did feel you were being a *wee* bit > condesecending but ...it was probably just me:-) > As I said, the lesson was transmitted by my ustda/teacher, and I for > one, found it inspirational; even before I became muslim, I never doubted > the existed of God; He just was not everything that I could see around me. You know, Imaan, for me when the realization came that God (The Beloved) was "everything around me": the heavens opened and the heart flamed. >From then on my life has been one of trying to serve all things, from the atoms to the angels, but mainly the humans inbetween. I try, I try... giving thanks day and night for Thy bounty, Thy blessings. O Lord, send Thy peace that our lives be a divine vision and in Thy light all darkness vanishes. Praise be Ray of Creation as laid down by Will of Absolute, Allah, tanzen ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #115 *****************************