From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 12 13:11:47 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25858; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 09:23:49 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA08219; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 08:16:43 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA08204; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 08:16:41 -0500 Received: from xs1.xs4all.nl by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16004; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 08:11:44 -0500 Received: by xs1.xs4all.nl id AA00973 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for tariqas@world.std.com); Fri, 12 Jan 1996 14:11:47 +0100 From: tommyboy Message-Id: <199601121311.AA00973@xs1.xs4all.nl> Subject: tariqa in Central-Asia To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 14:11:47 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 2351 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A L.S. I am a student social anthropology from Amsterdam and I am planning to make a study-trip to Central-Asia in spring this year (Kyrgyzstan to be more precise). One of my main interests is the way several tariqa - like the Naqshbandiya, Qadiriya and Yasawiya - provided for the religious needs of the people under the atheistic Soviet regime. In the literature this is labelled as "parallel Islam". The literature about the recent socio-cultural, political and economic changes in the region is, however, silent about the contemporary position of the Sufi Brethren. A lot of observations deal with the potential threath of religious 'fundamentalism' - without making much nuances I immediately want to add - for the processes of state-formation. Given the important historical role of Sufis in Central-Asia, it is at least strange that not much is heard about them anymore. That is way I turned to this listserver (on which I have been 'lurking' for a few months) and humbly ask the subscribers if they can shed a light on my following questions: - What are the religious and social activities of tariqa in the changing countries of Central-Asia nowadays? - Could somebody give me more information about the holy places in the region, like the Throne of Suleyman (Suleyman Dagi) near the city Osh? - Some information reached me about the current Wahhabi influence (notably in the Fargona valley) which led to the destruction of several shrines. Is this true, and if so, how do the Sufi Brotherhoods deal with this rage against their holy places? There are more questions bubbling up in my mind relating to Sufism, but let me not bother you any longer. I understand that I am interested in the tariqa from a somewhat different angle than most active subscribers. However, being thoroughly acculturated as a catholic (though not active anymore as I used to be), I think that I can grasp much of the religious life of Sufis (-> saint-worship and an active ritual life are not strange to me). Please forgive me if my inqueries are more of a sociological nature rather that a spiritual one. Your answers will help me a great deal in gaining some deeper insight in the current events in Central-Asia. I thank you all for taking the effort reading this and thinking about my questions. Best wishes. Thomas Voorter From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 12 08:44:37 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19384; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 09:58:47 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA11281; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 08:50:22 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA11272; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 08:50:20 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29777; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 08:45:37 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 08:45:37 +0001 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: FW: AIDS E-Mail Project To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: <199601112240.RAA16289@soho.ios.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. PLEASE do not send any more chain letters or anything of the type to the tariqas list. They do not belong here, and they take up a lot of space. Thank you. habib rose host of tariqas list From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 12 08:46:47 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20356; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 09:59:10 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA11454; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 08:51:30 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA11438; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 08:51:28 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01372; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 08:47:48 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 08:47:47 +0001 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: NO CHAIN LETTERS! To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. In case you don't get my other message, PLEASE don't send any chain letters or similar material to tariqas. This discussion list is not the place for general Internet stuff -- I won't even use it to promote some of my own ideas! Thanks, habib rose host of tariqas list From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 12 15:27:28 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24732; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:43:00 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA25975; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:37:50 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA25964; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:37:47 -0500 Received: from mucc.mahidol.ac.th by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28204; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:33:16 -0500 Received: (from fribk@localhost) by mucc.mahidol.ac.th (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA29903; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 22:27:29 +0700 (GMT) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 22:27:28 +0700 (GMT) From: Iljas Baker - SH To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Here is a quote from Rumi , I would welcome hearing list members' interpretations.In particular what does Rumi mean when he says"...when they come here their sciences will acquire a spirit." The quote is as follows: "These people who have studied or are now studying imagine that if they faithfully attend here[the sema]they will forget and abandon all their knowledge. On the contrary, when they come here their sciences all acquire a spirit.The sciences are all paintings. When they gain spirits, it is if a lifeless body receives a spirit. The root of all these sciences is Yonder, but they have been transported from the world without sounds and letters into the world of sounds and letters."--Fihi ma fihi, Arberry translation. Salaams, Ilyas From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 12 15:27:28 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25463; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:43:32 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA27479; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:47:18 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA27474; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:47:15 -0500 Received: from mucc.mahidol.ac.th by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08565; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:43:01 -0500 Received: (from fribk@localhost) by mucc.mahidol.ac.th (8.7.3/8.7.3) id WAA29903; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 22:27:29 +0700 (GMT) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 22:27:28 +0700 (GMT) From: Iljas Baker - SH To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Here is a quote from Rumi , I would welcome hearing list members' interpretations.In particular what does Rumi mean when he says"...when they come here their sciences will acquire a spirit." The quote is as follows: "These people who have studied or are now studying imagine that if they faithfully attend here[the sema]they will forget and abandon all their knowledge. On the contrary, when they come here their sciences all acquire a spirit.The sciences are all paintings. When they gain spirits, it is if a lifeless body receives a spirit. The root of all these sciences is Yonder, but they have been transported from the world without sounds and letters into the world of sounds and letters."--Fihi ma fihi, Arberry translation. Salaams, Ilyas From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 12 15:48:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00017; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 12:23:35 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA28257; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:53:53 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA28252; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:53:51 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca (Island.islandnet.com) by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13315; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:48:23 -0500 Received: from Texada.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0taliA-0005V4C; Fri, 12 Jan 96 07:48 PST Message-Id: Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 07:48 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Intercession and Do I Really exist Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: If all there is is God and the goal is to find oneself back home at one with one's Creator, and if one could give up the illusive nature of fear, guilt and sin and thus the ego is there any reason for intercession and does anything exist beyond Allah, and as a matter of fact if Paradise can be experienced on Earth (maybe the idea that we ever left home was an illusion to begin with ? The notion of seperation might lend to us Adam but are we diffrent than Adam who has been proported to be Moses to Be Isa to Be Mohammed as in the sanctification of Moses, the Light of Christos, and the Nur of Mohammed within the context of a great lineage which should not be by the way considered linear? Perhaps this business of fear of guilt of sin might come from a belief in the only real idol hiding behind the mask of all other's a sense of lack. To be at war with God, to declare a seperartion My Dad Myself My Mom My Self had to be led to believe by a thought that being created in the Perfect Image of our Creator left something lacking.Then being as imaginative a holographic body Mom Dad and I happen to be projecting out a snake to extend to me a thought that by eating some fruit (a magic pill I might make up for such a defficiency) and whalla I rather went out of my ever living mind! Hiding from the garden of sobriety outside I became seperate and declared myself to be at war and having learned the art of naming things, baptism and what have you I declared myself a division, a diablo, an ego and created a world of suffering, whereby everything that looked upon itself also so lack and murder and theft was the suit for the day because no oine could except the lie of lack and everyone in the horror of this dream felt for sanity sake they needed to extermiontate the other and perhaps even themselves. Why? VBecause they forgot that they were dreaming. We forgot that this is an illusion. And thus the need for an intercession. Thus the need for Gnostic wisdom. Thus the need for a brother and sister to examine through their eyes the shame of the actions perpetrated by this spieces in love and in knidness. What is atonement and what is the judgement day. Wisw friends have told me that both occur every instant. With out model of mid range thinking we each in arrogance act like we know something I follow these threads always in delight sometimes in shock. I would be very interested to hear what other have to say regarding the story above part of it comes fromn Ibn Arabi part from the course in Miricals, part from some smattering of Gnostic ramblings, and a little from my own heart. I submit it to amuse, to share, and to engage in hopefully something other than mere prattle, but a conferance of such Looney (A Canadian Duck of sorts) Birds as to realize that we may have already arrived where we thought we left without ever going anywhere. Love your Brother. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 12 16:32:32 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12659; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 12:35:56 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA04268; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:32:38 -0500 Received: from homer06.u.washington.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA04257; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:32:35 -0500 Received: by homer06.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW96.01/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA89337; Fri, 12 Jan 96 08:32:33 -0800 X-Sender: lilyan@homer06.u.washington.edu Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 08:32:32 -0800 (PST) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: tariqa in Central-Asia In-Reply-To: <199601121311.AA00973@xs1.xs4all.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: asalaam-u-aleikum I don't know any of the answers to your questions, but would be most interested to hear what you find out From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 12 19:13:45 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24815; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:00:27 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA22061; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 14:11:27 -0500 Received: from dns1.uga.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA22056; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 14:11:24 -0500 Received: from cacimbo.ggy.uga.edu (cacimbo.ggy.uga.edu [128.192.40.157]) by dns1.uga.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA41082 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 14:13:47 -0500 Received: (from btaylor@localhost) by cacimbo.ggy.uga.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id OAA00435; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 14:13:46 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 14:13:45 -0500 (EST) From: "B. Taylor" X-Sender: btaylor@cacimbo To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: your mail- Rumi In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, Iljas Baker - SH wrote: > Here is a quote from Rumi , I would welcome hearing list members' > interpretations.In particular what does Rumi mean when he says"...when > they come here their sciences will acquire a spirit." The quote is as > follows: > "These people who have studied or are now studying imagine that if > they faithfully attend here[the sema]they will forget and abandon all > their knowledge. On the contrary, when they come here their sciences all > acquire a spirit.The sciences are all paintings. When they gain > spirits, it is if a lifeless body receives a spirit. The root of > all these sciences is Yonder, but they have been transported from > the world without sounds and letters into the world of sounds and > letters."--Fihi ma fihi, Arberry translation. > Dear Ilyas, Thank for posting this wonderful quote. My response below should be taken as a story. I could be way off the mark. :) Reading this reminds me of something I read in Henry Corbin's _Creative Imagination and the Sufism of Ibn 'Arabi_. He writes: Philosophy that does not culminate in a metaphysic of ectasy is vain speculation; a mystical experience that is not grounded in a sound philosophical education is in danger of degenerating and going astray. So, I suppose then that the "sciences" without "spirit" are like the clay body of Adam before receiving the breath of God. Without the body, it would be difficult to "see the effects" of the spirit. In the same sense that wind can only be "seen" through feeling it against our skin, the blowing of leaves, tumbleweeds, and mobile homes in a tornado. The "world of sounds and letters" may refer in some way to the Koranic passage: "In the earth are signs for those having certainty, and in your own selves. What, do you not see?" (51:21) William Chittick and Sachiko Murata discuss this and the above paragraph in _The Vision of Islam_. The "vain speculation" then could be considered "shirk" or polytheism or "attributing partners to Gods" in the sense that one is relying on one's own judgements for knowledge and not knowledge from God. Maybe then "their sciences will aquire a spirit" through the culmination of ectasy in the participation of mystical "audition" (sema-turkish, sama-arabic). The danger of "degenerating and going astray" is balanced by the philosophy presented in the rules of the sama. These rules are discussed by Ahmad Ghazzali (brother of the famous imam) in his Bawariq al-ilma which is translated in James Robson's _Tracts on Listening to Music_ and I believe it can also be found in a book on music and mysticism by J. Godwin (unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the book or if that is the correct author!). Another source for "rules" can be found in Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh's _In the Tavern of Ruin_. I could ramble on longer but I think Fakhruddin 'Iraqi said it more beautifully: Before this there was one heart but a thousand thoughts. Now all is reduced to There is no god but God. (Translated in _Divine Flashes_ by W. Chittick and P.L. Wilson) -love- brad of the wandering librarian sufi order From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 12 20:21:06 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08793; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:43:53 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA02422; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:21:16 -0500 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA02407; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:21:11 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA03882 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:21:06 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:21:06 -0500 Message-Id: <960112152105_39715573@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Welcome [was Re: Introduction] Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Kaleem, welcome. what a wonderful introduction. may this spirit permeate tariqas and the universe. beautiful is mutual respect and encouragement Jinavamsa In a message dated 96-01-12 07:40:35 EST, you write: >Subj: Introduction >Date: 96-01-12 07:40:35 EST >From: kaleema@soho.ios.com (K.Ahmad) >Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >Reply-to: tariqas@europe.std.com >To: tariqas@europe.std.com > > Assalamu alaikum. > Greetings To All, >When I first saw the word tariqas for a discussion group, I thought to >myself what a great title. It brings to mind different paths, ways and >choices, all towards one goal. The Allmighty has given us the option, we can >burn in the fire or have the fire burn within us. We all have inborn >capabilities and possibilities which we should not deny. Often we feel >desires, to which there is no end. When they are not fullfilled we feel >melancholy, we forget if we control our desires we control our pain. Another >human trait is to think of tomorrow and linger on yesterday, we forget that >yesterday becomes the never alterable and tomorrow is the mirror of today. > >Iqbal puts it this way: > O Heart! How long will you follow > The foolish Moth's game? > And encompassing the Candle, > by Self-negligence, > Worship the same? > Now open your Eyes > Upon yourself, > And burn yourself in > Your own flame: > For 'tis no use jumping into > Another's fleeting Flame! >____________________________________ > > You always ran to his lane > O Heart! O Heart!! > And when you go > To your Beloved, > Alone I remain, > O Heart! O Heart!! > Every moment you create > New desires and new Aims > Hence you give me noyhing > But Disapointment > and inner pain, > O Heart! O Heart!! >____________________________________ > > A wise old man gave me > This piece of Advice > "Make much of your Present Time > For every "To-day" of yours > Is a Message from "To-morrow"! > >I look forward to encountering all of your "tariqas". >All The Best >Kaleem > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Jan 13 20:33:14 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13223; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:58:08 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA26820; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:33:19 -0500 Received: from relay5.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA26815; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:33:16 -0500 From: ASHA101@aol.com Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzyjq26738; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:33:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA28907 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:33:14 -0500 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:33:14 -0500 Message-Id: <960113153313_60820885@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: NO CHAIN LETTERS! Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Thank you Habib, at first I felt guilty about not passing on those letters with good intent - then I realized the it is a mistake to try to persuade anyone of anything. When done for gross reasons, like trying to sell you a car, it is a fault. When done for higer purposes, it is a mistake. It is this belief in the power of Allah which is perhaps most typically Sufi.... which you typify very well From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Jan 13 20:32:54 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12356; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:55:49 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA26806; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:33:04 -0500 Received: from relay6.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA26801; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:33:02 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzyjq11410; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:33:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA14824 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:32:54 -0500 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 15:32:54 -0500 Message-Id: <960113153251_115478763@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: mr. Rose on saint worship Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: hello Thomas (dag!), Habib, and others, If we take a step back here, (that is, if I do), I see that there are friends, those who have come close to Reality, so to speak, and that these friends have left some stories and verses which are meant to describe their experience or hint at some idea they felt to be important. This is looking at these people (or spirits if you prefer) as an opening into looking at their teaching or way or path. Then, in contrast, there's holding these people up for honoring. This perhaps splits us from the possible shifting of our own consciousness: this is a "they're saints, we're common folk" type of thinking. Maybe the former part, the study and reflection and application in our own lives, is the part of Saintdom (to avoid the ism you refer to below somewhat hesitatingly) :-) that is relevant to the path. While the latter, the putting up on high of those who are showing us "what we can't be" as Saint worship, is a roadblock to any path. just some thoughts. I was inspired to write this on being reminded while reading the post of the work by Farid al-Din Attar, Tadhkirat al-Auliya`. BTW, the translation of the title says something of the different levels of meaning here, doesn't it? One English rendering is Muslim Saint and Mystics; another is Recital of the Saints; another, Memoirs of the Friends. I have no idea if others agree with this, or if this is a traditional distinction in any tariqa. I do not mean anything in this post as an insult to anyone's tradition. in peace, Jinavamsa In a message dated 96-01-13 14:34:28 EST, you write: IIn my first post, I stated: >> > I understand that I am interested in the tariqa from a somewhat >> > different angle than most active subscribers. However, being >> > thoroughly acculturated as a catholic (though not active anymore >> > as I used to be), I think that I can grasp much of the religious >> > life of Sufis (-> saint-worship and an active ritual life are not >> > strange to me). >On which Habib Rose responded: >> I'm afraid I have no information about Sufism in Central-Asia. But, if >> you feel that Sufism includes "saint worship," it might be a good idea >> for us to talk. From my perspective, that is not a part of the Sufi >> path. >Dear mr. Rose >I am still in the stage of so-called armchair anthropology, that is >studying ethno- and historiographies. In the literature on Sufism the >term 'saint worship' is widely used, that's way I assumed this >is a common practice in everyday life, or at least not an >unknown phenomenon among members sharing a same religion. >And I see nothing strange in it. Allow me to draw again a parallel >line with contemporary Chatholicism (and the Greek\Russian Orthodox >church as well for that part): the worship of saints is common >praxis. Like that little St. Cristopher sticker on the dashboard, names >of schools and social clubs....the celebration of name days (some people >feel a very special personel connection with the saint they are named >after)...Here I am talking about a highly secularized society... >Anyway...saint worship might not be a part of your praxis if you >walk a spitiual path in search of Truth. I cannot but notice >that saints still play a part in daily life, and therefore have >a social meaning. >I am, however, very interested to hear your opinion about why 'saint >worship' doesn't go with the praxis of Sufism (please forgive >me the -isms, but they seem so convenient for the sake of >discussion). >Kind regards > Thomas From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Jan 13 22:41:51 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14163; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 17:08:10 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA02525; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 16:42:58 -0500 Received: from tacoma.nwrain.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA02518; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 16:42:55 -0500 From: levesque@nwrain.com Received: from p6.tpl1.nwrain.net by tacoma.nwrain.net with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #9) id m0tbDiU-000oOsC; Sat, 13 Jan 96 13:42 PST To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: mr. Rose on saint worship Date: Sat, 13 Jan 96 22:41:51 GMT Message-Id: References: <960113153251_115478763@emout05.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Quarterdeck Message Center [1.0] Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Thomas -- you wrote:---- I think that I can grasp much of the religious >life of Sufis (-> saint-worship and an active ritual life are not > strange to me). >On which Habib Rose responded: >> I'm afraid I have no information about Sufism in Central-Asia. But, if >> you feel that Sufism includes "saint worship," it might be a good idea >> for us to talk. From my perspective, that is not a part of the Sufi >> path. I think that I can grasp much of the religious >> life of Sufis (-> saint-worship and an active ritual life are not >> strange to me). >On which Habib Rose responded: >> I'm afraid I have no information about Sufism in Central-Asia. But, if >> you feel that Sufism includes "saint worship," it might be a good idea >> for us to talk. From my perspective, that is not a part of the Sufi >> path. (IMHO: comments welcomed): Neither Catholics nor Sufis practice actual "saint worship" which might infer the deification of humans. The unique relationship between those saints that have passed on and those of us who remain is loosely referred to as "saint worship", (especially in Protestant literature). Life and death are not seen as black and white, but as more of a continuum of life, connecting this and the other side. Neither Catholics nor Sufis believe that death ends the relationship which we have with those saints who have deceased (at least in body). Early Christians often worshipped and celebrated feasts at the tombsites of the saints, celebrating their connection. The Catholic "saint worship" differs from Sufism in at least one significant respect: the Roman patronage system. The Roman society into which Christianity evolved was based on patronage, or relationships with those in positions to grant favors and blessings. This carried over into the Catholic tradition where saints are invoked for specific favors (travleing mercy, protector of wooden houses,etc.) The Sufi relationship to saints more based upon the lineage of saints through which spiritual power and blessing (baraka) continues to flow. Certainly there are famous Sufi saints of many nationalities, but they have not been collated into categories as favor dispensers. (Check our a Catholic calendar with a saint for the day approach). *check out Brown's "Cult of The Saints" for a well written review of this development. Happy trails, Ray (levesque@ivu.com) From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Jan 13 22:52:37 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19465; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 18:16:19 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA07773; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 17:52:42 -0500 Received: from sgi15.phlab.missouri.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA07763; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 17:52:39 -0500 Received: (from c640429@localhost) by sgi15.phlab.missouri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id QAA10122; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 16:52:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 16:52:37 -0600 (CST) From: Jawad Qureshi X-Sender: c640429@sgi15.phlab.missouri.edu To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Introduction In-Reply-To: <199601121131.GAA12461@soho.ios.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Subhanallah! There's a brother that knows about Iqbal finally! Maybe you'll post some more of his poetry? Salam, and welcome! Jawad. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Jan 13 22:55:55 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21035; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 18:20:55 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA08055; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 17:56:00 -0500 Received: from sgi15.phlab.missouri.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA08036; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 17:55:57 -0500 Received: (from c640429@localhost) by sgi15.phlab.missouri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id QAA10134; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 16:55:56 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 16:55:55 -0600 (CST) From: Jawad Qureshi X-Sender: c640429@sgi15.phlab.missouri.edu To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: tariqa in Central-Asia In-Reply-To: <199601121311.AA00973@xs1.xs4all.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Salam, Excellent questions brother. I do not kn ow the answers, but there is a book that I recently saw, and plan to purchase, called "Waqf in Central Asia." It deals with the Islam that is practiced there, and is really interesting (i read a bit of it). I recommend, and Inshallah, it will help you with your questions. I can't remember the author off hand though. Salam, Jawad. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Jan 13 23:22:04 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02350; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 18:51:10 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA10329; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 18:22:16 -0500 Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA10298; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 18:22:09 -0500 Received: from localhost (darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.6.4/8.6.4) id KAA00224; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 10:22:06 +1100 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 10:22:04 +1100 (EST) From: Fred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: mr. Rose on saint worship In-Reply-To: <199601131904.AA00653@xs1.xs4all.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 13 Jan 1996, tommyboy wrote: > Dear mr. Rose > > I am still in the stage of so-called armchair anthropology, that is > studying ethno- and historiographies. In the literature on Sufism the > term 'saint worship' is widely used, that's way I assumed this > is a common practice in everyday life, or at least not an > unknown phenomenon among members sharing a same religion. > And I see nothing strange in it. Allow me to draw again a parallel > line with contemporary Chatholicism (and the Greek\Russian Orthodox > church as well for that part): the worship of saints is common > praxis. Like that little St. Cristopher sticker on the dashboard, names > of schools and social clubs....the celebration of name days (some people > feel a very special personel connection with the saint they are named > after)...Here I am talking about a highly secularized society... > Anyway...saint worship might not be a part of your praxis if you > walk a spitiual path in search of Truth. I cannot but notice > that saints still play a part in daily life, and therefore have > a social meaning. > I am, however, very interested to hear your opinion about why 'saint > worship' doesn't go with the praxis of Sufism (please forgive > me the -isms, but they seem so convenient for the sake of > discussion). To my personal understanding, saint "worship" is not part of the Sufi path, in agreement with my dear friend and brother Habib Rose. Worshipping anything other than Allah goes completely against Sufism. We try even not to worship ourselves, so how could we worship another human being, over our most Beloved Sustainer? Actually, I have been discussing this with someone (another member of this list) recently, from whom I have had the blessings of learning many things from. What is permitted is what is known as "tawassul." To my understanding, firstly a "saint" is one who is recognized as being close to Allah. Now, when we pray *to Allah* (NOT to the saint), we can ask Allah to help us etc., for the sake of His love and closeness for that saint. It is like saying, if you have a friend, say Carol, who is good friends with someone else, say Mark, you can ask Mark for something "for the sake of your friendship with Carol." Because Mark is good friends with Carol, this may make him more likely to listen to your request. This is one form of tawassul, to my humble understanding (please correct me if I am wrong). The only one worshipped is Allah, the Loving and the All-Embracing. Another form is, for example, you can ask someone who you feel is close to Allah to pray for you. This is done all the time in Islamic society, for example if your wife is in ill-health, you might ask all your friends to "pray for her." Similarly, if you knew a living saint, you could as her or him to pray for you. This is a type of tawassul. However, to my humble understanding, you can also ask someone who has passed on to pray for you as well, even though they have passed on, because with Allah's will they will hear you. Allah knows best the truth of this, this is what I have learned, may Allah guide us to the Truth! Asking someone to pray to Allah for Allah to help you is not worshipping that person, I think everyone will agree. So, you see, saints are never "worshipped." With all respect, sometimes anthropologists get it wrong, and I suggest that if they say Sufism teaches saints to be "worshipped," then they have gotten it wrong. The only one ever worshipped is Allah, our Sustainer and Creator. No one has any power other than Him, this is made so very very clear in the Qur'an. If they believe saints are "worshipped" as if they had power themselves, then I suggest these anthropologists have mistaken the concept of tawassul, which is most definitely NOT any sort of saint worship at all, but another way of worshipping our beloved Sustainer, Allah the Most High. A key point is that "worshipping" anything other than Allah goes completely against the Qur'an, and as many have shown, the roots of Tasawwuf (Sufism) are sunk deeply in the Qur'an and the sayings of the Prophet, may Allah's peace and blessings be with him. May Allah guide us to the truth, Peace, Farid-ud-dien (Fred Rice) From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Jan 14 00:14:21 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15492; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 19:33:21 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA13811; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 19:14:30 -0500 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA13806; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 19:14:23 -0500 From: AlBaqi@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA01276 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 19:14:21 -0500 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 19:14:21 -0500 Message-Id: <960113191420_60930792@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Rumi - death Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I know I have heard a wonderful poem by Mevlana Jelalludin Rumi on death. Does anyone know where to find it or have it on file? Thanks From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Jan 14 02:51:13 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17643; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 22:21:49 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA26300; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 21:55:46 -0500 Received: from soho.ios.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA26291; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 21:55:43 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (ppp-24.ts-4.nyc.idt.net [206.20.81.35]) by soho.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA26005 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 21:51:13 -0500 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 21:51:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199601140251.VAA26005@soho.ios.com> X-Sender: kaleema@198.4.75.47 (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: "K.Ahmad" Subject: Re: Rumi - death Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 07:14 PM 1/13/96 -0500, you wrote: >I know I have heard a wonderful poem by Mevlana Jelalludin Rumi on death. >Does anyone know where to find it or have it on file? Thanks > > I hope this is what your looking for. Our death is our wedding with Eternity. What is the secret? "God is One." The sunlight splits when entering the windows of a house. This multiplicity exists in the cluster of grapes; It is not in the juice made from the grapes. For he who is living is the light of God, The death of a carnal soul is a blessing. Regarding him, say neither bad nor good, For he is gone beyond the good and the bad. Fix your eyes on God and do not talk about what is invisible, So that He may place another look in your eyes That no invisible or secret thing exists. But when the eye is turned toward the Light of God What thing could remain hidden under such Light? Although all light emanates from the Devine Light Don't call these lights "The Light of God"; It is the eternal light which is the Light of God, The ephemeral light is an attribute of the body and flesh. ...Oh God who gives the grace of Vision! The bird of vision is flying towards you with the wings of desire. (Mystic Odes 833) From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Jan 14 03:03:16 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20668; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 22:31:16 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA26969; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 22:06:11 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA26962; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 22:06:09 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11443; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 22:03:08 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01HZZ4ALR3JE90S0LH@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for TARIQAS@WORLD.STD.COM; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 21:03:16 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 21:03:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: Saints and Intercession To: TARIQAS@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HZZ4ALR3JG90S0LH@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: TARIQAS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: This notion of saints, whether in a Sufi-less Islam or in Sufism itself, seems to be linked with a sense of intercession. There are thousands of koubbas (marabouts) all over North Africa, shrines in commemoration of deceased sheykhs. People visit these pious and devout Muslims visit these koubbas to pray to "the saint" buried therein for the same kind of advice or aid that they are others of generations ago might have visited them when they were the reigning sheykhs of the area. Many books have have written about "sufi saints," albeit books authored bt primarily Western writers. All of this is a very tricky business. Very sober Sufi friends of mine, for example, believe that a work such as Ibn 'Arabi's *Ruh AlQuds wa AlDurrat AlFaakhirah*(translated by R.W.J. Austin as *Sufis of Andalusia*) is a regrettable innovation within Islam because they fear that such works are a form of idolatry because they extol and praise human beings, when only Allah Himself is to be due all praise and honor. So Mr. Rose's query about saints has to be posed so that we can work through it righteously. =Mackie Blanton= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Jan 14 04:10:25 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12498; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 23:38:29 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA01243; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 23:10:20 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA01238; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 23:10:17 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01HZZ6B64K0690S0LH@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 22:10:25 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 22:10:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: mr. Rose on saint worship To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <01HZZ6B64K0890S0LH@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@facteur.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A The first christians, who now call themselves "Orthodox Christians" --and who predated the Roman Catholics of the West by almost four hundred years--made a very useful distinction that got them out the bind that we seem to be in here on this list regarding "worshipping" saints (or icons, for that matter). They distinguished between two modes of *reverence*. Reverence, they taught, meant either worship or veneration, arguing that only the Godhead was due all glory, honor, and worship, but that it was "meet and right" to venerate (show respect to) God's saints and the Church's icons of saints. Neither saints nor icons could/can be worshipped, but they could/can be venerated. Photographs of family members, for example, that we have in our homes are their as a sign of respect or veneration. We surely do not place these folks above Allah. Orthodox Christians, who have icons in their church temples, and Roman Catholics, who have statues in their churches, have them in commenoration of --accoring to THEIR belief-- that the Godhead took on human form and substance through their Jesus; hence, "it is meet and right" to venerate the images of God's creation, especially his saints. All the rest is commentary and disputation. Some of us might think that this discussion, to this extent, is unnecessary. however, it is pertinent because it goes to the question of one's *sunni-ness*: one's origin and orthodoxy. There are 30,000 christian denominations in the world. 29,998 of them do not resemble Eastern Orthodoxy or Western Catholicism. If as Sufis we can learn from this history, how then do we explain Sufi origin and orthodoxy? Or are all forms of worship and veneration, though created during historical human time, forms of The One Original Orthodoxy? How do we explain accepting changes and differences? How do we explain that The Face of The Friend Whom we seek is never lost, despite the changes and differeences that develop? Or is it? =Mackie Blanton= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Jan 14 04:46:20 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20932; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 00:08:49 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA04082; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 23:47:06 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA04074; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 23:47:03 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01HZZ80VFFSC90S0LH@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 22:46:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 22:46:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Rumi - death To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <01HZZ80VFFSE90S0LH@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@facteur.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On the day I die, when I'm being carried toward the grave, don't weep. Don't say, "He's gone! He's gone!" Death has nothing to do with going away. The sun sets and the moon sets, but they're not *gone*. Death is a coming together. The tomb *looks* like a prison, but it's really release into Union. The human seed goes down in the ground like a bucket into the well where joseph is. It grows and comes up full of some unimagined beauty. Your mouth closes here and immediately opens with a shout of joy. --From *Like This--Rumi: 43 Odes* (Versions by Coleman Barks), 1990, p. 61. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Jan 14 06:24:16 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28407; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 01:49:34 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA11185; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 01:23:03 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA11178; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 01:23:00 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id BAA25139 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 01:27:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.175]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 2:36:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960114062416.00324b68@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 01:24:16 -0500 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: mr. Rose on saint worship Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:10 PM 1/13/96 -0600, MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu wrote: Dear Mackie and brothers and sisters, I've always felt that the first Sufi was Eve. She was rebellious and broke the rules, desiring experience rather than blind acceptance by faith. Since that time, everyone is born a Sufi. It is only the BELIEFS that are hammered into us that we must forget to rejoin the Sufi community. This forgetting is the object of most of the Sufi practices that are given by the various Sufi orders. A Sufi is a mystic. All great religions have their origin in mysticism. The religion is the cup; the ingredients are always the same. If one focuses on the wine, rather than the container, differences between religions (most are run by the followers of followers of followers) melt away, don't you agree. All the prophets of the world's great religions brought essentially the same message, cast in different ways for those who were being rescued at the time. For this writer a friend is more valuable than any religion and maintenance of friendship requires devotion and caring, not just in the church, temple or mosque, but every day all day. Cultivation of the art of personality is the true religion. What other religion can say that it never killed or maimed anyone in the name of God? Warm regards, > Some of us might think that this discussion, to this extent, is >unnecessary. however, it is pertinent because it goes to the question of >one's *sunni-ness*: one's origin and orthodoxy. There are 30,000 >christian denominations in the world. 29,998 of them do not resemble Eastern >Orthodoxy or Western Catholicism. If as Sufis we can learn from this >history, how then do we explain Sufi origin and orthodoxy? Or are all forms >of worship and veneration, though created during historical human time, >forms of The One Original Orthodoxy? > How do we explain accepting changes and differences? How do we >explain that The Face of The Friend Whom we seek is never lost, despite >the changes and differeences that develop? Or is it? > > > > >=Mackie Blanton= > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Jan 14 07:00:21 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06308; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 02:23:34 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA13520; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 02:00:27 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA13500; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 02:00:24 -0500 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (bergner@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA15083 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 23:00:23 -0800 From: Paul Bergner Received: (bergner@localhost) by kelly.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA28960 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 23:00:22 -0800 Message-Id: <199601140700.XAA28960@kelly.teleport.com> Subject: Re: Saints and Intercession To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 23:00:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <01HZZ4ALR3JG90S0LH@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> from "MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu" at Jan 13, 96 09:03:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 706 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Asalaamu alaikum. T get to the core of Islam on intercession, the Holy Quran says in ayat al Kursi -- certainly one fo the most important ayats -- in translation -- none can intercede with Him except by his permission. This idea is also repeted elsewhere in the Quran. . As I understand it, this clarifies the discussion of interecession: Allah grant permission to intercede to whomever Allah wills. It could be your friend parying for you, or a family member, or a living saint, or a saint in the next world. Asking them directly for their intercession , with the understadning that only allah can grant them such intercession is as natural as asking a friend to pray for you. Abvdul Mustafa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Jan 14 07:34:50 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13534; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 03:01:43 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA15686; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 02:35:01 -0500 Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA15681; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 02:34:56 -0500 Received: from localhost (darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.6.4/8.6.4) id SAA15978; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 18:34:53 +1100 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 18:34:50 +1100 (EST) From: Fred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Rumi - death In-Reply-To: <960113191420_60930792@mail06.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 13 Jan 1996 AlBaqi@aol.com wrote: > I know I have heard a wonderful poem by Mevlana Jelalludin Rumi on death. > Does anyone know where to find it or have it on file? Thanks I have already seen two poems on death... here is another... Is this what you are looking for? This is from the Rumi website, http://www.armory.com/~thrace/sufi/ (Also, I just put some Rumi poems on the web, based on translations by Nicholson. You can find that at http://www.physics.monash.edu.au/~darice/rumi.html ) ON THE DEATHBED Go, rest your head on a pillow, leave me alone; leave me ruined, exhausted from the journey of this night, writhing in a wave of passion till the dawn. Either stay and be forgiving, or, if you like, be cruel and leave. Flee from me, away from trouble; take the path of safety, far from this danger. We have crept into this corner of grief, turning the water wheel with a flow of tears. While a tyrant with a heart of flint slays, and no one says, "Prepare to pay the blood money." Faith in the king comes easily in lovely times, but be faithful now and endure, pale lover. No cure exists for this pain but to die, So why should I say, "Cure this pain"? In a dream last night I saw an ancient one in the garden of love, beckoning with his hand, saying, "Come here." On this path, Love is the emerald, the beautiful green that wards off dragonsnough, I am losing myself. If you are a man of learning, read something classic, a history of the human struggle and don't settle for mediocre verse. Kulliyat-i-Shams 2039 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Jan 14 17:24:40 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24626; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 10:05:23 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA02702; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 09:43:22 -0500 Received: from host.taconic.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA02696; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 09:43:20 -0500 From: omegapub@taconic.net Received: from ch_anx_p23.taconic.net by host.taconic.net; (5.65/1.1.8.2/13Jul95-1105AM) id AA32527; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 09:44:53 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 96 09:24:40 PST Subject: Re: saint worship To: tariqas@facteur.std.com X-Mailer: Chameleon V0.05, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I am using two comments from a post by Fred Rice to frame my contribution to this discussion of saints: >To my personal understanding, saint "worship" is not part of the >Sufi path, in agreement with my dear friend and brother Habib Rose. >Worshipping anything other than Allah goes completely against Sufism. >We try even not to worship ourselves, so how could we worship >another human being, over our most Beloved Sustainer? One could suggest that, by being close to Allah, these holy beings --friends, if you will-- help us to experience Allah, help us to know Allah, and through this help us to draw close to Allah as well. Do you not think the fervent wish of these friends of Allah is that we might all draw close to the One? I am thinking, as I make the above suggestion, of the teaching which Inayat Khan phrased as "you become what you are conscious of." Or I am reminded of "say Allah, and Allah you will become." This does not imply that there is need of any intermediary between an individual and his Lord. Rather, what seems to happen (if my experience is similar to that of others) is that the vibrations of the saints atmosphere tend to awaken similar vibrations in our own being. This atmosphere also tends to persist at the dargah (tomb) of the saint after his or her passing, which is why pilgrimages to "saints" tombs can be so effective. (It may be worth noting also that the atmosphere of a given "saint" will not necessarily appeal to everyone, only those for whom that particular vibration is latent and beginning to stir toward awakening.) >So, you see, saints are never "worshipped." With all respect, sometimes >anthropologists get it wrong, and I suggest that if they say Sufism >teaches saints to be "worshipped," then they have gotten it wrong. >The only one ever worshipped is Allah, our Sustainer and Creator. Not only anthropologists get it wrong, but even the religious authorities have been known to make the same kind of mistake: they see the outer form and miss the inner meaning. If I have drawn close to one of the friends of Allah it is a relationship of love which I am experiencing, and that is the basis from which I am acting. It is veneration, to be sure, and it may go beyond that in exactly the way we all tend to act with and toward those whom we love. The outer form may well look like worship to someone who is blind to the inner meaning and emotion of, say, a pilgrimage to a saint's tomb, and prayers and weeping at the foot of the tomb...Who can say what is the proper behavior of the lover toward the Beloved? There is none but Allah; is it not Allah being expressed through the very behavior that makes us revere them as saints? Is it not Allah we worship when we bow to his friends? How could it be otherwise? Ya Allah! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Abi'l-Khayr E-mail: omegapub@taconic.net Date: 01/14/96 Time: 09:24:40 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Jan 14 11:31:15 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04634; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:59:31 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA10419; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:36:57 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA10407; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:36:54 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23795; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:32:15 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:32:15 +0001 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: mr. Rose on saint worship To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199601131904.AA00653@xs1.xs4all.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. I will attempt to answer the questions posed as best I can. I do not speak for my tariqa, for sufism, for islam, nor for the tariqas discussion list. My opinions are based upon my current understanding at the time. In other words, I may be wrong! On Sat, 13 Jan 1996, tommyboy wrote: > L.S. > > In my first post, I stated: > > > > I understand that I am interested in the tariqa from a somewhat > > > different angle than most active subscribers. However, being > > > thoroughly acculturated as a catholic (though not active anymore > > > as I used to be), I think that I can grasp much of the religious > > > life of Sufis (-> saint-worship and an active ritual life are not > > > strange to me). > > On which Habib Rose responded: > > > I'm afraid I have no information about Sufism in Central-Asia. But, if > > you feel that Sufism includes "saint worship," it might be a good idea > > for us to talk. From my perspective, that is not a part of the Sufi > > path. > > Dear mr. Rose > > I am still in the stage of so-called armchair anthropology, that is > studying ethno- and historiographies. In the literature on Sufism the > term 'saint worship' is widely used, that's way I assumed this > is a common practice in everyday life, or at least not an > unknown phenomenon among members sharing a same religion. The literature on any subject is a reflection of the perspective, bias, and level of understanding of the writer. For hundreds of years, literature about Africa would have described all Africans as savages. This level of understanding conveniently ignores "details" like the great African civilizations of Great Zimbabwe, Benin, Timbuktu, Ethiopia etc., and makes the innacurate and racist assumption that Egyptian civilization was solely a Mediterranean rather than African phenomenon (actually, many of the Pharoahs were quite dark skinned Africans etc.) But, these facts were not reflected in the literature, so what emerges is a highly biased and inaccurate picture that conveniently fits in with the reader's world view, and reinforces it. Insh'Allah (God willing), if you continue to explore "Sufism" you will find out much more about the reality. But, your understanding of Sufism will still be largely based upon "where you are coming from." To truly understand Sufism, you will need to become a Sufi. So, I will attempt to share my perspectives on the issue of saint worship. I don't know if I am a Sufi or not, so please take my perspectives with "a grain of salt." The idea of true Sufis worshipping saints is nonsense. There is only one God, and ANYTHING that stands in the way of a "closer relationship" (unity?) with God is antithetical to Sufism. That includes worshipping saints, worshipping money, and, most frequently, worshipping ourselves. To really understand what may appear to be saint worship, you need to understand the role of sufi teachers. They are tools, used by God for God's own purpose. Nothing more. It may be useful for the student, at certain points, to have tremendous respect for their teacher, to "idealize" their teacher, to try to emulate their teacher, to obey their teacher, etc. But, if the student gets stuck there, and thinks that their teacher (or saint or prophet) is worthy of worship, they are missing the point. The point of the Work is Allah, and doing Allah's Work. > And I see nothing strange in it. Allow me to draw again a parallel > line with contemporary Chatholicism (and the Greek\Russian Orthodox > church as well for that part): the worship of saints is common > praxis. Like that little St. Cristopher sticker on the dashboard, names > of schools and social clubs....the celebration of name days (some people > feel a very special personel connection with the saint they are named > after)...Here I am talking about a highly secularized society... > Anyway...saint worship might not be a part of your praxis if you > walk a spitiual path in search of Truth. I cannot but notice > that saints still play a part in daily life, and therefore have > a social meaning. > I am, however, very interested to hear your opinion about why 'saint > worship' doesn't go with the praxis of Sufism (please forgive > me the -isms, but they seem so convenient for the sake of > discussion). > The part that saints play in people's lives will depend upon their level of development. Some people may actually worship them. If the saint/teacher is a true saint/teacher, and notices this behavior, Insh'Allah, they will do something to help the student correct that behavior. For example, some teachers will make blatant mistakes (even breaking Shariah -- the Islamic Law), to help break their student's perceptions of them as perfect. Some of the highest saints aren't recognized as such by most people -- they avoid attracting the attention of people by appearing to be ordinary, even boring people. For other people, saints may have a teaching function (offering models for behavior etc.) To truly understand these sorts of functions, you need to: 1. Be a Sufi 2. Be familar with the context in which they are occuring. Until then, it may be useful to concentrate on our own spiritual path, before trying to "understand" (analyze) the paths of others. Yours, habib rose From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Jan 14 11:53:21 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13175; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 12:25:49 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA11646; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:56:04 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA11641; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:56:02 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02989; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:54:21 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:54:21 +0001 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: mr. Rose on saint worship To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: <01HZZ6B64K0890S0LH@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 13 Jan 1996 MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu wrote: > The first christians, who now call themselves "Orthodox Christians" > --and who predated the Roman Catholics of the West by almost four hundred > years--made a very useful distinction that got them out the bind that we > seem to be in here on this list regarding "worshipping" saints (or icons, for > that matter). They distinguished between two modes of *reverence*. > Reverence, they taught, meant either worship or veneration, arguing > that only the Godhead was due all glory, honor, and worship, but that it was > "meet and right" to venerate (show respect to) God's saints and the Church's > icons of saints. Neither saints nor icons could/can be worshipped, but they > could/can be venerated. Photographs of family members, for example, that we > have in our homes are their as a sign of respect or veneration. We surely do > not place these folks above Allah. > Orthodox Christians, who have icons in their church temples, and Roman > Catholics, who have statues in their churches, have them in commenoration of > --accoring to THEIR belief-- that the Godhead took on human form and substance > through their Jesus; hence, "it is meet and right" to venerate the images of > God's creation, especially his saints. This sort of distinction is valuable in understanding other traditions, including ones that may appear to be "idolatry." In my understanding of Buddhism, for example, you show respect to (and venerate) human beings as your teachers. This may include bowing before them, and before statues which represent them. But, at least in the Buddhist traditions I am most familair with you DON'T worship them. That would get in the way of your spiritual development. Buddhism doesn't have the same notion of God as an object of worhsip as Islam et. al., but the goal, as far as I understand it, is development of (and/or recognition of) one's Buddha Nature. Exactly what Buddha Nature is (like a precise description of Allah), is, thankfully, beyond the scope of this discussion... :-) habib rose From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Jan 14 18:42:29 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16648; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 13:56:10 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA20787; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 13:46:19 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15086; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 13:52:20 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA20470; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 13:42:29 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 13:42:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199601141842.NAA20470@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Sun Jan 14 13:42:26 1996 Return-Path: Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA20465; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 13:42:25 -0500 Received: (from uucp@localhost) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) id SAA43894 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 18:52:13 GMT Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 18:52:13 GMT Message-Id: <199601141852.SAA43894@smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net> Received: from slip66-25.ny.us.ibm.net(129.37.66.25) by smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net via smap (V1.3mjr) id smaq1EDe7; Sun Jan 14 18:52:02 1996 X-Sender: oceana@pop01.ny.us.ibm.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@europe.std.com From: Vegan = Love unsubscribe Hillary Morris oceana@ibm.net morrish@morgan.com ------------------------------------------------------------------- "...If you don't want the effect, do something to remove the causes. There is no use loving the cause and fearing the effect and being surprised when the effect inevitably follows the cause." -Thomas Merton, The Seven Storey Mountain From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Jan 14 20:06:16 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23277; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:32:56 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA25830; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:06:21 -0500 Received: from dns1.uga.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA25822; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:06:19 -0500 Received: from cacimbo.ggy.uga.edu (cacimbo.ggy.uga.edu [128.192.40.157]) by dns1.uga.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id PAA14056 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:06:17 -0500 Received: (from btaylor@localhost) by cacimbo.ggy.uga.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id PAA14600; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:06:17 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:06:16 -0500 (EST) From: "B. Taylor" X-Sender: btaylor@cacimbo To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: mr. Rose on saint worship In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960114062416.00324b68@worldweb.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 14 Jan 1996, James McCaig wrote: > I've always felt that the first Sufi was Eve. She was rebellious and broke > the rules, desiring experience rather than blind acceptance by faith. Since > that time, everyone is born a Sufi. It is only the BELIEFS that are > hammered into us that we must forget to rejoin the Sufi community. This > forgetting is the object of most of the Sufi practices that are given by the > various Sufi orders. > This is interesting because some Sufis have stated that Iblis(Satan) is the "perfect lover" or Sufi. The arguement roughly states in as much as I understand it: that without darkness (Satan) one can not see light (God). It is because of darkness, the absence of Light that we can "see" it. This is not to say the both Satan and God are seperate Beings, but rather that Iblis is existent in as much as darkness is existent. Since darkness is absence of Light, it actually does not exist. Only God exists. There is no god but God. The most well known of these defenders is Mansur al-Hallaj who was executed for "heresy" in 922 a.d. for proclaiming "ana'l-haqq" - "I am the Truth." For more info check out "Iblis, The Black Light: Satanism in Islam" in Peter L. Wilson's _Sacred Drift_ and Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh's _The Great Satan 'Eblis'_ for a good discussion on Iblis and sufism. -brad From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Jan 14 22:55:26 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01310; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 19:16:10 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA16088; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 18:52:35 -0500 Received: from wolfe.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA16080; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 18:52:32 -0500 Received: from [204.157.98.227] (sea-ts3-p45.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.227]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id PAA14324 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:58:19 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: gws@gonzo.wolfe.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:55:26 -0700 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: gws@wolfe.net (George Steffen) Subject: Re: mr. Rose on saint worship Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > The first christians, who now call themselves "Orthodox Christians" >--and who predated the Roman Catholics of the West by almost four hundred >years--made a very useful distinction that got them out the bind that we >seem to be in here on this list regarding "worshipping" saints (or icons, for >that matter). They distinguished between two modes of *reverence*. > Reverence, they taught, meant either worship or veneration, arguing >that only the Godhead was due all glory, honor, and worship, but that it was >"meet and right" to venerate (show respect to) God's saints and the Church's >icons of saints. Neither saints nor icons could/can be worshipped, but they >could/can be venerated. Photographs of family members, for example, that we >have in our homes are their as a sign of respect or veneration. We surely do >not place these folks above Allah. > Orthodox Christians, who have icons in their church temples, and Roman >Catholics, who have statues in their churches, have them in commenoration of >--accoring to THEIR belief-- that the Godhead took on human form and substance >through their Jesus; hence, "it is meet and right" to venerate the images of >God's creation, especially his saints. > All the rest is commentary and disputation. > > Some of us might think that this discussion, to this extent, is >unnecessary. however, it is pertinent because it goes to the question of >one's *sunni-ness*: one's origin and orthodoxy. There are 30,000 >christian denominations in the world. 29,998 of them do not resemble Eastern >Orthodoxy or Western Catholicism. If as Sufis we can learn from this >history, how then do we explain Sufi origin and orthodoxy? Or are all forms >of worship and veneration, though created during historical human time, >forms of The One Original Orthodoxy? > How do we explain accepting changes and differences? How do we >explain that The Face of The Friend Whom we seek is never lost, despite >the changes and differeences that develop? Or is it? > > > > >=Mackie Blanton= Assalam Aleikum I have been following this discussion of saints and worship and the questions which Mr. Blanton posses above are momentus and perhaps unanswerable. As to Saints and "saint-worship," I believe that Mr. Blanton's post on prayer in the name of the Good Friend is particularly relevant. It is said that Haz. Adam (as) was finally forgiven when he couched his plea for forgiveness in the name of Muhammed (saws) which he had seen written around the boarders of Heaven following the Tawhid. If that is so, then might we not seek similar help through the Prophet or the saints that we "know?" What happens in the folk margins of religious faith as in Morocco (or in Indonesia, Turkey, or Ireland) is another discussion. The deification of anyone or anything in Islam is 'shirk' meaning running partners with Allah. A saint is one who has passed through this wasteland (of shirk - a condition we are ALL subject to) through the blessing of faith: he or she has found (recognized) the Truth of Allah in his/her heart. That is their 'secret' which is devoutly to be hoped for by us all. Short of that condition (forgive me, what other word shall I use?), is Islam or obedience to the commands of Allah. If you doubt that there is a difference between the two, then consider the following from Surah Al-Hujurat, (49:14): The bedouins say, "We have faith." Say, "You do not have faith. rather say, 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered you hearts. If you obey God and His messenger, He will not diminish you anything of your works." Perhaps what happens in these marginal deifications of saints is the shirk which grows out of human fraility ("I will never reach that station; be my door"). As Muzaffer Efendi (ra) used to say, a shaikh can lead you to the door but only Allah pulls you through. This is not to be confused, however, with the issue of many paths to same door. Again, Muzaffer Efendi (ra) upon being asked why there were so many different kinds of Tariqats, responded, "Because there are so many different kinds of people." Personalities abound while the goal is One. Those who can cut straight through the mountains do so; those who go around do so. They are aiming at the same goal. The tariqats make explicit what is implied in 49:14; that the unification of our outer and inner patterns means obedience and the questioning of motive. Peace and Blessings, Habib N. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 15 00:28:12 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06877; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 19:31:26 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA19522; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 19:31:26 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05698; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 19:28:12 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA19127; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 19:28:12 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 19:28:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199601150028.TAA19127@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Sun Jan 14 19:28:10 1996 Return-Path: Received: from cstone.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA19121; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 19:28:09 -0500 Received: from david.cstone.net (Dialin12.cstone.net [205.197.102.112]) by cstone.net (8.7.1/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA24091 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 19:28:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 19:28:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199601150028.TAA24091@cstone.net> X-Sender: david@pure.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@europe.std.com From: "David G. Dalley" Subject: unsubscribe Please unsubscribe this address: It may be listed as David@postoffice.chv.va.us or David@cstone.net or David@pure.net > ============================================================================ ========= ### ### "The whole tooth and ###### ####### nothing but the tooth" ################## David G Dalley, DDS ################## ##### ###### David@pure.net A virtual transendental ### ### Experience ## ## # # ============================================================================ ========= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 15 01:46:52 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20083; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 21:11:13 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA26521; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 20:45:39 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA26508; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 20:45:36 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id UAA29037 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 20:50:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.170]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 21:59:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960115014652.002f5504@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 20:46:52 -0500 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, tariqas@facteur.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: mr. Rose on saint worship Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 03:06 PM 1/14/96 -0500, B. Taylor wrote: >This is interesting because some Sufis have stated that Iblis(Satan) is >the "perfect lover" or Sufi. The arguement roughly states in as much as I >understand it: that without darkness (Satan) one can not see light (God). >It is because of darkness, the absence of Light that we can "see" it. >This is not to say the both Satan and God are seperate Beings, but rather >that Iblis is existent in as much as darkness is existent. Since darkness >is absence of Light, it actually does not exist. Only God exists. > >There is no god but God. > Dear Brad, Thank you for your interesting comments and insight. Here's a short quote from Hazrat Inayat Khan which mentions the "Darkness" "I FIRST believed without any hesitation in the existence of the soul, and then I wondered about the secret of its nature. I persevered and strove in search of the soul, and found at last that I myself was the cover over my soul. I realized that that in me which believed and that in me which wondered, that which persevered in me, and that which found, and that which was found at last, was no other than my soul. I thanked the darkness that brought me to the light, and I valued the veil which prepared for me the vision in which I saw myself reflected, the vision produced in the mirror of my soul. Since then I have seen all souls as my soul, and realized my soul as the soul of all; and what bewilderment it was when I realized that I alone was, if there were anyone; that I am whatever and whoever exists; and that I shall be whoever there will be in the future. And there was no end to my happiness and joy." VOLUME V, "SPIRITUAL LIBERTY" page 99 Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 15 06:49:18 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00049; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 23:26:11 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA09312; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 22:50:11 -0500 Received: from host.taconic.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA09307; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 22:50:08 -0500 From: omegapub@taconic.net Received: from ch_anx_p19.taconic.net by host.taconic.net; (5.65/1.1.8.2/13Jul95-1105AM) id AA06469; Sun, 14 Jan 1996 22:51:42 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 96 22:49:18 PST Subject: Re: the intercession of saints To: tariqas@facteur.std.com X-Mailer: Chameleon V0.05, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >From a post by George Steffen: "It is said that Haz. Adam (as) was finally forgiven when he couched his plea for forgiveness in the name of Muhammed"... I'd like to invite comments on the topic, what does it mean to speak "in the name of", or more generally, what is it we mean when we say "bismillah". Somewhere along the way it was suggested to me that the idea of name is associated with vibration, and in the deepest sense that is to be that person, or perhaps some would say "to be in the consciousness of that person/being". So then, to pray in the name of Muhammad would mean to be in the consciousness of Muhammad, or, practically speaking, to be Muhammad at the moment of that prayer. Other viewpoints on this, please? * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Abi'l-Khayr E-mail: omegapub@taconic.net Date: 01/14/96 Time: 22:49:18 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 15 13:21:29 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04270; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 09:09:22 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA25068; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 08:27:30 -0500 Received: from mucc.mahidol.ac.th by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA25028; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 08:27:19 -0500 Received: (from fribk@localhost) by mucc.mahidol.ac.th (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA06282; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 20:21:30 +0700 (GMT) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 20:21:29 +0700 (GMT) From: Iljas Baker - SH To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Saint worship In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 14 Jan 1996, George Steffen wrote: > Assalam Aleikum > I have been following this discussion of saints and worship and the > questions which Mr. Blanton posses above are momentus and perhaps > unanswerable. As to Saints and "saint-worship," I believe that Mr. > Blanton's post on prayer in the name of the Good Friend is particularly > relevant. It is said that Haz. Adam (as) was finally forgiven when he > couched his plea for forgiveness in the name of Muhammed (saws) which he > had seen written around the boarders of Heaven following the Tawhid. Well perhaps this story should not be taken literally, remember these are spiritual realities that are being referred to. Perhaps it is not that the literal Adam was forgiven when he couched his plea for forgiveness in the name of the literal Muhammad. What happens in the folk margins of religious faith as in Morocco > (or in Indonesia, Turkey, or Ireland) is another discussion. The > deification of anyone or anything in Islam is 'shirk' meaning running > partners with Allah. As someone who was once a Christian, then a Buddhist then a Muslim(now for over 20 years ) and who has lived amongst people of each of these religions I can assure you that saint worship exists in each of these religions. Let us not have illusions about Islam. Anything bad you can find among the people of other religions you can find among Muslims. The cutting asunder of all illusions will help to create harmony. A saint is one who has passed through this wasteland > (of shirk - a condition we are ALL subject to) through the blessing of > faith: he or she has found (recognized) the Truth of Allah in his/her > heart. That is their 'secret' which is devoutly to be hoped for by us all. 'Saints'( sanctified persons) can help us in two main ways: 1. Outwardly they can help us by inspiring us by their outer actions so that we make a greater effort to live well 2. They help us inwardly by means of their baraka which inspires us inwardly to surrender to Allah, to praise Him. This inspiration brings the greater benefit. A number of years ago I had the great good fortune to sit in the company of a sanctified person, he, of course, never referred to himself as a saint. I was listening to him talk on matters concerning the true surrender to Allah and gradually my mind became still without making any effort whatsoever. Whenever I looked at him it was if my attention was deflected away from him and focussed on my chest where within I could feel the presence of the Dhikr:Allah, Allah, Allah. Saint worship is not a myth created by anthropologists, popular Sufism is full of superstitions, and it is not a recent phenomenon. I hope you will take this in the spirit that is intended.Did not our Prophet used to pray:"Lord, show me what is real." Salaams, Ilyas From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 15 15:03:50 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07977; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 10:55:43 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA05862; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 10:04:33 -0500 Received: from netcom17.netcom.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA05857; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 10:04:29 -0500 Received: by netcom17.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id HAA15289; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 07:03:50 -0800 Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 07:03:50 -0800 (PST) From: Steven Finkelman Subject: Re: mr. Rose on saint worship To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sun, 14 Jan 1996, B. Taylor wrote: > On Sun, 14 Jan 1996, James McCaig wrote: > > > I've always felt that the first Sufi was Eve. She was rebellious and broke > > the rules, desiring experience rather than blind acceptance by faith. Since > > that time, everyone is born a Sufi. It is only the BELIEFS that are > > hammered into us that we must forget to rejoin the Sufi community. This > > forgetting is the object of most of the Sufi practices that are given by the > > various Sufi orders. the first sufi was allah, sufi is beond distinction, beond lable, beond name. > > > This is interesting because some Sufis have stated that Iblis(Satan) is > the "perfect lover" or Sufi. The arguement roughly states in as much as I > understand it: that without darkness (Satan) one can not see light (God). > It is because of darkness, the absence of Light that we can "see" it. > This is not to say the both Satan and God are seperate Beings, but rather > that Iblis is existent in as much as darkness is existent. Since darkness > is absence of Light, it actually does not exist. Only God exists. > this is a view from the plane of opposites. Iblis is the enabling factor which allows man to know allah, to be allah, to have a direct connection the absolute, to be the absolute and formless one. Iblis is the destroyer of formal religion. There is no darkness, only light and the seperation from light. > There is no god but God. > > The most well known of these defenders is Mansur al-Hallaj who was executed > for "heresy" in 922 a.d. for proclaiming "ana'l-haqq" - "I am the Truth." the confirmation was when he was killed this blood spread to the ground beneath him, and spelled allah. INlove and clear light, Hal sadiq al'fazul From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 15 22:04:10 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12045; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 18:07:17 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA10452; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 17:05:23 -0500 Received: from relay4.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA10443; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 17:05:18 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzyrg16494; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 17:04:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA04711 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 17:04:10 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 17:04:10 -0500 Message-Id: <960115170407_117362541@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Iblis [was Re: mr. Rose on saint worship] Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-01-15 10:05:43 EST, you write: >bj: Re: mr. Rose on saint worship >Date: 96-01-15 10:05:43 EST >From: slfink@netcom.com (Steven Finkelman) >Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >Reply-to: tariqas@europe.std.com >To: tariqas@europe.std.com hello Hal/Steven and all, >>>>COPIED FROM BELOW<<<<<<<< >Iblis is the destroyer of formal religion. There is no darkness, only light and the seperation from light. There is no god but God. > Is this a problem for traditional Islam? (esp. the part about Iblis?) in other words, Is this "Sufic" understanding of Iblis also used in traditional Islam? or is this one place where the two read the Teachings in different ways? Jinavamsa FOLLOWING IS THE ORIGINAL POSTING: >On Sun, 14 Jan 1996, B. Taylor wrote: >> On Sun, 14 Jan 1996, James McCaig wrote: >> > I've always felt that the first Sufi was Eve. She was rebellious and broke >> > the rules, desiring experience rather than blind acceptance by faith. Since >> > that time, everyone is born a Sufi. It is only the BELIEFS that are >> > hammered into us that we must forget to rejoin the Sufi community. This >> > forgetting is the object of most of the Sufi practices that are given by the >> > various Sufi orders. >the first sufi was allah, sufi is beond distinction, beond lable, beond name. >> This is interesting because some Sufis have stated that Iblis(Satan) is >> the "perfect lover" or Sufi. The arguement roughly states in as much as I >> understand it: that without darkness (Satan) one can not see light (God). >> It is because of darkness, the absence of Light that we can "see" it. >> This is not to say the both Satan and God are seperate Beings, but rather >> that Iblis is existent in as much as darkness is existent. Since darkness >> is absence of Light, it actually does not exist. Only God exists. >this is a view from the plane of opposites. Iblis is the enabling factor >which allows man to know allah, to be allah, to have a direct connection >the absolute, to be the absolute and formless one. >Iblis is the destroyer of formal religion. There is no darkness, only light and the seperation from light. There is no god but God. > Is this a problem for traditional Islam? (esp. the part about Iblis?) >> The most well known of these defenders is Mansur al-Hallaj who was executed >> for "heresy" in 922 a.d. for proclaiming "ana'l-haqq" - "I am the Truth." >the confirmation was when he was killed this blood spread to the ground >beneath him, and spelled allah. >INlove and clear light, >Hal sadiq al'fazul From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 15 22:39:52 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02389; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 18:42:50 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA15278; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 17:41:16 -0500 Received: from relay1.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA15251; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 17:41:11 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzyri28803; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 17:40:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA01090 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 17:39:52 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 17:39:52 -0500 Message-Id: <960115173820_117397893@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Sufis and warfare [was Re: msa: NEWS: Arabs consume uranium food & water (fwd)] Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: hello all, I have not seen any replies to the long message forwarded recently to the tariqas group. It has been coming into my thoughts a number of times since I first read through it. I do not copy that forward here now, although I am keeping a copy of it for future reference, at least in the short time frame. I have been looking for a Sufi link here. The story itself, about the so-called US war on Iraq, both raised a number of issues of the health plane of war (no pun meant), but also some on the political plane (of the sort, how could the US do this to Iraq?) I have heard some stories BTW of malformed babies born in the USA to those who partook in the Gulf War. That particular question, and this whole issue in the slant that it is given in the quoted "news release" is not the point of this message. The idea of trying to justify war and killing and harming civilians and other human beings ("soldiers") on national or righteousness or religious grounds seems to me something that we humans have been doing for millennia. Woman, children, and others (adult males) have been maimed, tortured, raped, and killed during all of that time of justification. So what's the Sufi tie-in???? May I go here to Shebli (a.k.a. Abuu Bakr ibn Ja.hdar ash-Shiblii)? [died 945 C.E.] He is quoted as having said: A Sufi is not a Sufi, until he has taken all mankind as a family charge upon himself. He does not talk of taking only Persians, or only Muslims, or only bone fide Sufis, but of all mankind. Or, as is said in the Dhammapada, (by the well-known pre-Islamic Sufi, Sidd-aarta ibn al-buudi): Hatred never ceases by hatred in this world. Through loving-kindness it comes to an end. This is an eternal law. (eternal in the sense of omni-present) So until people *stop* getting sucked into the fervor of us-them and what-they-did-to-us (or to-our-friends-or "allies"), this killing will go on. At least until, to echo the words of Nicanor Parra (a poet from S. America), we exterminate ourselves as a species. in peace for all, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 01:50:45 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26094; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:14:18 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA08626; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 20:50:51 -0500 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA08596; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 20:50:46 -0500 From: JZarow@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA24568 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 20:50:45 -0500 Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 20:50:45 -0500 Message-Id: <960115204535_117598048@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Two topices: Iblis and Sufi rebelliousness Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I am new here and don't have benefit of Sunday posting so forgive me if I am way off-base. Regarding discussion of Iblis: I do not have learned texts to quote, but share from what I think is a common understanding (or misunderstanding). In discussion with my spouse, (raised in an Islamic culture), we have determined that Satan, in mainstream Islam, fulfils a role similar to that in Christianity (my early childhood background). That is, Satan or Iblis functions as an 'Enforcer' on behalf of formal religion. I guess one also could characterize this as enabler but the two concepts seem qualitatively different. As for role as "destroyer", I would think that applies more to direct communion with God than to formal religion,which of course, can also get in the way. Hence, I suppose, the notion of enabler. As a beginner on this path I would appreciate more discussion regarding Eve as Sufi due to her characteristic of rebelliousness. Whereas I do not understand Sufis to be submissive or complacent, neither do I understand them to be insurrectionists or openly defiant. Thank you JZarow@AOL.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 02:20:07 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00424; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 22:06:36 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA12715; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:26:12 -0500 Received: from mucc.mahidol.ac.th by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA12681; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:26:03 -0500 Received: (from fribk@localhost) by mucc.mahidol.ac.th (8.7.3/8.7.3) id JAA00315; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:20:08 +0700 (GMT) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:20:07 +0700 (GMT) From: Iljas Baker - SH To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Sufis and warfare [was Re: msa: NEWS: Arabs consume uranium food & water (fwd)] In-Reply-To: <960115173820_117397893@emout05.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 15 Jan 1996 Jinavamsa@aol.com wrote: > The idea of trying to justify war and killing and harming civilians and other > human beings ("soldiers") on national or righteousness or religious grounds > seems to me something that we humans have been doing for millennia. Woman, > children, and others (adult males) have been maimed, tortured, raped, and > killed during all of that time of justification. > > So what's the Sufi tie-in???? > > May I go here to Shebli (a.k.a. Abuu Bakr ibn Ja.hdar ash-Shiblii)? [died > 945 C.E.] He is quoted as having said: > A Sufi is not a Sufi, until he has taken all mankind as a family charge upon > himself. > > He does not talk of taking only Persians, or only Muslims, or only bone fide > Sufis, but of all mankind. I am sorry I did not read the original posting referred to hear but I would like to respond to what is quoted here.Clearly war to stop oppression( The Lesser Jihad) is allowed in Islam, the Prophet and his Companions engaged in this.Those who shirked this responsibility were chastised by Allah. In al Quran, Surah al-Fath it is said: "No blame attaches to the blind, nor does blame attach to the lame, nor does blame attach to the sick [for staying away from a war in God's cause]; but whoever heeds the call of God and His Apostle,him will He admit into gardens through which running waters flow; whereas him who turns away will He chastise with grievious chastisement." But as soon as oppression ceases then the war must also cease and the victoriuos party must then establish conditions for a lasting peace.Moreover any war must be conducted within a strict ethical framework--no killing of women, children, the elderly, prisoners must be treated justly, no destruction of crops or livestock.Most modern talk of Jihad by Muslims is simply mendacious.Look into their hearts and to their deeds rather than to their words. The Greater Jihad is the war against the nafs or the self. This never ceases. Here is a poem I wrote a few years ago, it was published in a Buddhist journal called Seeds of Peace. HOLY WAR The Peace of Hudabiya is over Now it's time for Holy War. Don't say you've no stomach for fighting, Off with their heads! Oh brothers, I mean this: Now that your soul is strong Assail the self. When an evil thought arises, Let it go IMMEDIATELY! Salaams, Ilyas From tariqas-approval@world.std.com Tue Jan 0 03:43:27 1916 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06376; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 23:08:01 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA24808; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 23:08:01 -0500 Received: from kaos.deepcove.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03786; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 23:01:58 -0500 From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Message-Id: <199601160401.AA03786@world.std.com> Report-Version: 2 >To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Date: Tue Jan 16 03:43:27 GMT 1996 Original-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 21:51:13 -0500 Original-Subject: Re: Rumi - death Not-Delivered-To: !recipients due to 12 Inability To Transfer ORIGINAL MESSAGE ATTACHED (rmail: Error # 15 'Cannot create lock file') En-Route-To: shauman Content-Length: 2177 Content-Type: text Status: RO X-Status: Received: from europe.std.com by Kaos.deepcove.com ; 15 JAN 96 19:36:56 PDT Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA26300; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 21:55:46 -0500 Received: from soho.ios.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA26291; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 21:55:43 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (ppp-24.ts-4.nyc.idt.net [206.20.81.35]) by soho.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA26005 for ; Sat, 13 Jan 1996 21:51:13 -0500 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 21:51:13 -0500 Message-ID: <199601140251.VAA26005@soho.ios.com> X-Sender: kaleema@198.4.75.47 (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Length: 1205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: "K.Ahmad" Subject: Re: Rumi - death Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com At 07:14 PM 1/13/96 -0500, you wrote: >I know I have heard a wonderful poem by Mevlana Jelalludin Rumi on death. >Does anyone know where to find it or have it on file? Thanks > > I hope this is what your looking for. Our death is our wedding with Eternity. What is the secret? "God is One." The sunlight splits when entering the windows of a house. This multiplicity exists in the cluster of grapes; It is not in the juice made from the grapes. For he who is living is the light of God, The death of a carnal soul is a blessing. Regarding him, say neither bad nor good, For he is gone beyond the good and the bad. Fix your eyes on God and do not talk about what is invisible, So that He may place another look in your eyes That no invisible or secret thing exists. But when the eye is turned toward the Light of God What thing could remain hidden under such Light? Although all light emanates from the Devine Light Don't call these lights "The Light of God"; It is the eternal light which is the Light of God, The ephemeral light is an attribute of the body and flesh. ...Oh God who gives the grace of Vision! The bird of vision is flying towards you with the wings of desire. (Mystic Odes 833) From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 05:38:59 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27509; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 01:05:58 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA04514; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 00:39:10 -0500 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA04506; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 00:39:06 -0500 Received: from julie.teleport.com (bergner@julie.teleport.com [192.108.254.19]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA14562 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:39:05 -0800 From: Paul Bergner Received: (bergner@localhost) by julie.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA25172 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:38:59 -0800 Message-Id: <199601160538.VAA25172@julie.teleport.com> Subject: Re: Sufis and warfare [was Re: msa: NEWS: Arabs consume uranium food & water (fwd)] To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:38:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: from "Iljas Baker - SH" at Jan 16, 96 09:20:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 717 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Asalaamu alaikum. Just a note on this topic. As we write, several hundred Chechnyans are probably being slaughtered somewhere in Russia. The Chechen society is literally riddled with sufis -- many villages are organized around the sheikhs, and reportedly a majority of the Chechen Muslims belong to one order or another. Perhaps the spiritual strength they derived from this, and their willingness to die in a righteous cause is what gave them the strength to blacken the eye of one of the strongest armies in the world when faced with grevious provocation. Has anyon read the atrocities the Russians have committed on the Chechens? Will someone say thay are not justified in fighting back? Abdul Mustafa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 06:17:34 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11478; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 01:56:33 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA07576; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 01:17:31 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA07571; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 01:17:28 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01I0240IYYF690S5FS@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 00:17:34 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 00:17:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: mr. Rose on saint worship To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <01I0240IYYF890S5FS@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@facteur.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Hal-- Would you pleaseexplain to us what you mean when you suggest that "man is Allah," as in your observation that "Iblis...allows man to know Allah, to be Allah...to be the Absolute and Formless One." [Uppercase, except for "Iblis" mine own.] =Mackie Blanton= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 06:17:09 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11355; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 01:56:04 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA07609; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 01:18:30 -0500 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA07604; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 01:18:28 -0500 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id WAA07089 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 22:17:12 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id WAA08601; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 22:17:10 -0800 Message-Id: <199601160617.WAA08601@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Sufism and Religions To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 22:17:09 -0800 (PST) Cc: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19960114062416.00324b68@worldweb.net> from "James McCaig" at Jan 14, 96 01:24:16 am From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3635 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 49960115 Peace be with you, my kin. James McCaig : |I've always felt that the first Sufi was Eve. She was rebellious and broke |the rules, desiring experience rather than blind acceptance by faith. The story I was told about Eve was that she gave in to temptation. I didn't think that Sufis did that. |Since that time, everyone is born a Sufi. I was taught that we become Sufis (and few at that), that we are born to a potentia condition in which we are at first innocent and incapable of error. Then when we begin to take responsibility for our lives (some place this at a particular time in life, some due to actions we choose) our trial begins. Perhaps this makes one a Sufi from birth, though my thought was that first we had to choose to follow the straight path, the path of Allah, before we were Sufi. I welcome correction. |It is only the BELIEFS that are hammered into us that we must forget to |rejoin the Sufi community. This forgetting is the object of most of the |Sufi practices that are given by the various Sufi orders. All beliefs? Or just some of them? I agree that beliefs can stand in the way of love, of the perfect path, but I wonder if some of these are more dangerous, more deceptive, than others. Beliefs like 'I am better than my sister' or 'I have learned everything I need to' strike me as more dangerous than some sort of theological assumption. |A Sufi is a mystic. All great religions have their origin in mysticism. This is strange teaching to me given what I have seen so far. I was taught that there is only one religion and that this is a path or deen of Allah. Social traditions come and go, new religions are born and die, but the Way of Allah is made plain to the faithful. I was told it is a path rather than a religion, that it resides in no particular social group, and that 'mysticism' is a fuzzy concept used by academics in ways which may divide hearts if we are unaware. |The religion is the cup; the ingredients are always the same. If one |focuses on the wine, rather than the container, differences between |religions (most are run by the followers of followers of followers) melt |away, don't you agree. All the prophets of the world's great religions |brought essentially the same message, cast in different ways for those |who were being rescued at the time. I do not see this, not as portrayed within the various religious traditions of the world, no. I agree that we find followers of followers. This is why we must enter into the fold of Allah, through His Messenger, Muhammad. His followers can point us in that direction, yet like the saints of whom others speak within this elist, they only point, lead, encourage us to be righteous, inspire us with their virtue. |For this writer a friend is more valuable than any religion and maintenance |of friendship requires devotion and caring, not just in the church, temple |or mosque, but every day all day. The building we are in can become our mosque, the maintenance of our friendships can become the remembrance of Allah (dhikr), and for those who perservere, there is a reward. |Cultivation of the art of personality is the true religion. What other |religion can say that it never killed or maimed anyone in the name of God? There is no god but Allah. No blood has ever been shed in His name. Always always the fighting of the righteous resists oppression and seeks to terminate violence. The wise find ways never to lift a finger and still find the peaceful road. I love this elist. Peace be with you, Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 07:12:57 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21166; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 02:39:04 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA12090; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 02:14:18 -0500 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA12085; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 02:14:15 -0500 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id XAA11441 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 23:13:00 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id XAA13252; Mon, 15 Jan 1996 23:12:58 -0800 Message-Id: <199601160712.XAA13252@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Re: Saint Worship and Sufism To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 23:12:57 -0800 (PST) Cc: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (nagasiva) In-Reply-To: from "Steve H Rose" at Jan 14, 96 11:32:15 am From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2968 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 49960115 Peace be with you, my kin. Steve H Rose |The idea of true Sufis worshipping saints is nonsense. I agree that this is nonsensical. |There is only one God, and ANYTHING that stands in the way of a |"closer relationship" (unity?) with God is antithetical to Sufism. Again agreed. |That includes worshipping saints, worshipping money, and, most |frequently, worshipping ourselves. It is impossible to predict the actions of a Sufi. What she may do as a result of inspiration of the Will of Allah may be quite beyond all our abilities to rationalize. |To really understand what may appear to be saint worship, you need to |understand the role of sufi teachers. They are tools, used by God for |God's own purpose. Nothing more. I wonder sometimes if Sufis aren't means by which Allah may hide, sort of like the use of a fan in Japanese culture, a mask, or a wind-up jack-in- the-box, drawing our attention to the Gate of Mystery through which we may fall suddenly into the Beloved. |...if the student gets stuck there, and thinks that |their teacher (or saint or prophet) is worthy of worship, they are |missing the point. The point of the Work is Allah, and doing Allah's Work. Perhaps at times Allah's work is the worship of saints then. I cannot help but wonder why such work would need have limitations, so mysterious is this that it may transcend our comprehension. |...they will do something to help the student correct that behavior. |For example, some teachers will make blatant mistakes (even breaking |Shariah -- the Islamic Law), to help break their student's perceptions |of them as perfect. Some of the highest saints aren't recognized as |such by most people -- they avoid attracting the attention of people |by appearing to be ordinary, even boring people. Exactly, what is called 'disappearing into the folds of hir sheikh's robes', leaving no trace by which those who follow may attach their ego and fall from Allah's grace. |1. Be a Sufi You said in your post that you are not a Sufi. You have said here that one must 'be a Sufi' in order to fully apprehend the functions of the apparent worshipping of saints. How did you learn of what it means to be a Sufi? What or who were your best teachers? |...it may be useful to concentrate on our own spiritual path, before |trying to "understand" (analyze) the paths of others. Such wisdom. I take it to my heart that I may never understand the path of another and only if I am very diligent, lucky in fact, will I be able to come to some understanding of my own. I have been instructed that understanding is itself merely a sort of 'bonus', a prize given as a sort of joke at a party, the players all laughing and clapping when one has expressed it aloud, yet the party continues with nobody sure what just happened and the mystery remaining intact. Peace be upon you, my kin. Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 07:52:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28207; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 03:14:46 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA14568; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 02:52:22 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA14561; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 02:52:19 -0500 Received: from Granville.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0tc6Bd-0005VVC; Mon, 15 Jan 96 23:52 PST Message-Id: Date: Mon, 15 Jan 96 23:52 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Judiaisn, Christianity, Islam and war: The Lie Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: HOLY WAR The Peace of Hudabiya is over Now it's time for Holy War. Don't say you've no stomach for fighting, Off with their heads! Oh brothers, I mean this: Now that your soul is strong Assail the self. When an evil thought arises, Let it go IMMEDIATELY! Salaams, Ilyas Even Murshid Hazarat Inyat Khan spoke of self protection yet I say this: To my understanding may I be blinded to attack and to defence for here is where the illusion begins! May my life be dedicated to a model that turns, as Isaiha would suggest the sword into a plowshare. I call myself a Moslem and God willing will take no arms ever against another - certainly not physically - and may I, God provide for me the capacity, to stop hurting others in the way we as humans normaly seem to still interact. If the Bible says that God is Vengeful, or the Torah says the same, or the Qu ran says the same all I can say is that I a Muslim, a Jew, and A Christian wrote the book wrong - I lied about what the Prophet wrote or had written or said. I invented a craven image, I created an icon. Allah is not a God of hate or vengence and violence is only a part of the illusion which is refered to as we say La and all there is - is Allah. Allah did not create us lacking in anything - that we lack in anything is a lie and with that lie we have generated projections illusions and apperations of grief, pain , sorrow and discord. We are each a mriracle, but we have forgot we have bought into a lie and we have allowed ourselves the fate of self trickery and thus have been at war with ourselves, our God and each other, and will remain being until we both remember and remind each other of Huk: and always with a twinkle in our eye. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 07:52:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29687; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 03:23:51 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA14578; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 02:52:25 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA14567; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 02:52:22 -0500 Received: from Granville.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0tc6BY-0005VEC; Mon, 15 Jan 96 23:52 PST Message-Id: Date: Mon, 15 Jan 96 23:52 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Re: A Vantage Point called "Saint Worship" Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: How easy it is to misconstrue the love Rumi felt for Shams as in fact a type of worship. And how easy is it for each of us to see a Divine Expression within our beloved spouces or intimate friends and generously in the heat of drunken passion to express our love and say to that image of an image who is our friend oh my Beloved. And very easy it is to look upon our Shayke swooning in an attempt to just experience his shadow or to touch his garment and to even allow for some superstitiion regarding baraka rather than be about "the real thing"! We and when I say we I mean those who in fact - there are so many in histroy - who give the impression through their love of Saint Worship. Unlike the clear and clean love which Rabia for instance has for the Unknowable Essence which call itself self Allah, as she chides the servant girl, and embarreses Hafiz for seeming miricles. The very notion of Baraka through the Golden Lineage or whichever lineage, the celebration and devotion to the presence beautiful life led by Ali not to mention the Prophet (sws) begin to speak of a cultural phenomena which to Europeans and to Rome may well be identified with their understanding of "Saint Worship". I remeber speaking once to my Dad about Islamic Saints and he immediately repremended me and said quite clearly their are no Moslem Saints. And of course their are Sufi Saints. Cearly we worship only Allah. Yet in the arena of submission begining with the concept of Caliph and regarding the heavy political emphasis upon the Mullah and Shiek seen from a Suadi Arabian point of view on to the often dramatic, colorful, and superlative manner of expression which is a woderful part of the Middle East as well as Central Asia we do do something very close to this business of Saint Worship. If one werre to refer back to the threads regarding both intercession as well as submission I think there is a link here. Also I feel that the individual who began this thread needs to be commended and definitely not condemned for his quetion as well as his point of view, and rather than telling him he is wrong it might be much more prudent to point to a facet of the truth which extends a further glimpse of clarity. Please pardon me if I seem like I am meddling. Love your brother. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 10:29:36 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17184; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 05:53:28 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id FAA21525; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 05:30:00 -0500 Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id FAA21517; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 05:29:55 -0500 Received: from localhost (darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.6.4/8.6.4) id VAA10820; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 21:29:39 +1100 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 21:29:36 +1100 (EST) From: Fred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Sufis and warfare [was Re: msa: NEWS: Arabs consume uranium food & water (fwd)] In-Reply-To: <960115173820_117397893@emout05.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum, I remember reading somewhere in Rumi's poetry (can't give an exact reference though, sorry) of Rumi saying that most wars are fought for people's egos. They may state other reasons, but their ego is the main underlying reason, if I remember what I have read correctly.... However, to the best of my understanding, a war in self-defence is justifiable (according to the Qur'an). If someone is trying to punch you, it is permissable to try to block the blow. If someone is trying to harm your children, it is permissable to try to prevent them from harming your children. It is this kind of war, for self-defence (and defending others who are attacked and are not so capable of defending themselves), that to my understanding is the only permissable kind, Allah knows best. Regarding Buddhism, I do not know the detailed Buddhist viewpoint on this, but many Chinese martial arts were developed in Buddhist temples, probably for self-defence as well. Salam, Farid-ud-dien From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 14:00:05 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28908; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:32:04 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA05360; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:59:02 -0500 Received: from alfred.ccs.carleton.ca by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA05332; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:58:59 -0500 Received: from superior (superior.ccs.carleton.ca) by alfred.ccs.carleton.ca (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA13407; Tue, 16 Jan 96 09:00:08 EST From: ccscon35@ccs.carleton.ca (Rizwan Mawani) Received: by superior (4.1/Sun-Client) id AA13763; Tue, 16 Jan 96 09:00:05 EST Message-Id: <9601161400.AA13763@superior> Subject: Re: Iblis To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Tue, 16 Jan 96 9:00:05 EST In-Reply-To: <960115170407_117362541@mail06.mail.aol.com>; from "Jinavamsa@aol.com" at Jan 15, 96 5:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: As-salaam alaikum brothers and sisters The discussion on Iblis is beginning to bloom into quite an interesting and enlightening one. In my readings of the positions of Iblis is Sufism, I see a slightly different significance to him. Right from the point where Allah instructed all the Angels of Paradise to bow to Adam (and lets not forget Iblis was originally one of Allah's highest angels), Iblis refused. Traditional Muslim upbringing attributes this action to pride and "haughtiness". The martyr, al-Hallaj has a different view. He writes "His [Iblis] hands were tied behind his back, and he was thrown into the Ocean, and Allah said, "Beware, lest you become wet." A catch-22 of sorts. Iblis was caught inbetween Allah's will and his command. According to the Sufic interpretation, the reason of Iblis' disobedience is that he refused to bow down to no one else but Allah. No one else was worthy of this action save Him. In this sense, in some circles he is revered as the ultimate lover of God. Rumi has a beautiful image of Iblis, somewhere where he states, that although Iblis has been separated from God and performs constant dhikr, the only memory of his Beloved that keeps him alive is his harsh words "Be gone" to Iblis. Joseph Cambell retells the myth fairly well, in several of his works. Such a beautiful story. Peter J. Awn's book on Iblis is quite useful here as well. Rizwan Quote of the day: "No man's knowledge, here, can go beyond his experience." John Locke, Essay on the Human Understanding ================================================================= Rizwan Mawani email: rmawani@chat.carleton.ca Carleton University Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Anthropology/Religion III (613) 736-7521 ================================================================= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 13:57:41 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28622; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:31:36 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA05000; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:55:57 -0500 Received: from cap1.CapAccess.org by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA04987; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:55:53 -0500 Received: (from bmccoy@localhost) by cap1.CapAccess.org (8.6.12/8.6.10) id IAA29686; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:57:41 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:57:41 -0500 (EST) From: "Brett W. McCoy" X-Sender: bmccoy@cap1.capaccess.org To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Sufis and warfare [was Re: msa: NEWS: Arabs consume uranium food & water (fwd)] In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 16 Jan 1996, Fred Rice wrote: > However, to the best of my understanding, a war in self-defence > is justifiable (according to the Qur'an). If someone is trying > to punch you, it is permissable to try to block the blow. If > someone is trying to harm your children, it is permissable to > try to prevent them from harming your children. It is this kind > of war, for self-defence (and defending others who are attacked > and are not so capable of defending themselves), that to my > understanding is the only permissable kind, Allah knows best. I've been looking into the roots of the concepts of Chivalry recently (primarily European chivalry), and possibly not too suprising, nearly everything I've looked at seems to point back to Sufism, especially what you've outlined above. A book I've been reading on the Grail tradition explicitly makes the connection. This idea of chivalrous conduct, protecting the weak and personal honour, coupled with the pre-Christian (mainly Germanic) idea that dying in the name of one's God (like Odin) was the highest honour one could have, ultimately culminated in the fervour that led to the Crusades and Chivalric Orders like the Knights Templar. > Regarding Buddhism, I do not know the detailed Buddhist viewpoint > on this, but many Chinese martial arts were developed in Buddhist > temples, probably for self-defence as well. The Eastern Chivalric ideals developed in a similar manner, especially with the fusion of Indian Buddhism and Chinese Taoism, the latter explicitly teaching the philosophy of non-violence, self-love and unconditional love to others (Agape to the Western mystics). Brett W. McCoy | There is only one difference bmccoy@capaccess.org | between myself and a madman, Disciple of the Eastern Mysteries of | and that is I am not mad both Love and War | -- Salvador Dali From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 14:29:34 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01471; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:11:35 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA08874; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:27:49 -0500 Received: from epix.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA08857; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:27:45 -0500 Received: from .epix.net (lwbyppp38.epix.net [199.224.69.38]) by epix.net (8.7.1/8.7) with SMTP id JAA14804 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:29:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199601161429.JAA14804@epix.net> From: sarmad@epix.net (James Brody) To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Saint Worship and Sufism Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:29:34 GMT References: <199601160712.XAA13252@jobe.shell.portal.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99b.112 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Find the Jesus (PBUH) of your being, find the Mohammad (PBUH) of your being, find the Milarepa (PBUH) of your being, find the Moses (PBUH) of your being, find the Nanak (PBUH) of your being, etc...(RFeild) Then find the Haq of your being, the Nur of your being, the Musawwir of your being, etc.... "Say Allah, and Allah you will become" (SufiAhmedMurad) From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 14:08:38 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26403; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:50:43 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA14535; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:03:47 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA14523; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:03:45 -0500 Received: from peoples1.peoples.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23988; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 10:04:16 -0500 Received: from [206.40.96.6] (randolph-4.peoples.net [206.40.96.6]) by peoples1.peoples.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA24829; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:45:57 -0600 Message-Id: <199601161445.IAA24829@peoples1.peoples.net> To: "AlBaqi@aol.com" , Tariqas Subject: Re: Rumi - death Date: Tue, 16 Jan 96 09:08:38 -0500 From: "Wm. Whitney" X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v2.5.03 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: -- [ From: Wm. Whitney * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Here is one from Mevlana which you may not have seen: 163.3598 This Love put a tray on top of his head And walks around from street to street, yelling, "Wherever there is death, I will give life," Adding, "No cheating, no deceit." He was saying, "I become a meal with my favors, My kindness goes around, but never comes to an end. Where is the beggar who would Come and fill his bag?" I overwhelm you with pearls, Sometimes with poison. Recognize me, know me. You are like a bushel in my hand. I will make gold mines If a small grain comes and submits itself to me. If there is a steep, bare hill I will make an endless sea of it. Poverty is from you, favor from Me. You will be satisfied, I will give a fortune. I will put out hundreds of satin for the silkworm, Dress him with hundreds of heavy garments. I give such a crop to helpless ones Who have never sown nor harvested. I give such a feeling to the dervish Who neither suffered nor struggled. I will pour a fountain of sweet To the narrow heart of the sugar cane. I will put nice, happy thoughts In the mind. Ride your horse in the way of religion, If your horse gets hurt, do not worry. You will find Yilki instead of pure horse. Be silent, do not say, "It is not like that." Do not look for anything but God's favor. The sweetmeat of contention Is overflowing from the pot to the fire. See every particle, the glow of God's knowledge >From the light of God's Shems of Tebriz. Every particle starts talking If there is a pleasure in talking. PE paneagle@peoples.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 17:26:05 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26069; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:42:59 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA04264; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:25:58 -0500 Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA04222; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:25:51 -0500 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11047; Tue, 16 Jan 96 09:25:48 PST Received: from antares by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 16 Jan 96 9:25:47 PST Received: from kirin.Tymnet.COM by antares.Tymnet.COM (8.6.5/UCB) id JAA13794; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:25:46 -0800 Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA06520; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:26:05 -0800 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:26:05 -0800 From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore) Message-Id: <9601161726.AA06520@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: request for salat details X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Hello friends, Does anybody know of a book or other document or a web page that gives the details of doing salat. Having receintly taken shahada I feel that I should get my salat straight. There are those at the masjid that could help me, but they don't have it written down. When I have asked, they have given me more information than I can remember. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 20:04:46 1996 Received: from relay1.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03809; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:17:40 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzyuv02651; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:15:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA27140; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 15:05:01 -0500 Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA27122; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 15:04:55 -0500 Received: from localhost (darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.6.4/8.6.4) id HAA02944; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 07:04:48 +1100 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 07:04:46 +1100 (EST) From: Fred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Sufis and warfare [was Re: msa: NEWS: Arabs consume uranium food & water (fwd)] In-Reply-To: <960115173820_117397893@emout05.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum, A couple more comments on this topic, insha-Allah.... On Mon, 15 Jan 1996 Jinavamsa@aol.com wrote: > May I go here to Shebli (a.k.a. Abuu Bakr ibn Ja.hdar ash-Shiblii)? [died > 945 C.E.] He is quoted as having said: > A Sufi is not a Sufi, until he has taken all mankind as a family charge upon > himself. Can you imagine a loving father or mother not trying to protect their child when she or he is being attacked? Any truly loving parent would try to protect their child. Also, say you are a loving parent, but now your child is the attacker. If you truly love your child, you will try to prevent your child from doing these harmful things. These, I think, are some shades of meaning behind the quote you state from Shebli.... There is a hadith of the Prophet (s), where he says something like, help your brother, whether he is the oppressed or the oppressor. He was then asked, how can you help your brother if he is the oppressor? The Prophet replied something like, if he is the oppressor, you help him by trying to prevent him from carrying out his oppression. This, I believe, is how to treat all of humanity as your family, Allah knows best. > He does not talk of taking only Persians, or only Muslims, or only bone fide > Sufis, but of all mankind. > > Or, as is said in the Dhammapada, (by the well-known pre-Islamic Sufi, > Sidd-aarta ibn al-buudi): > Hatred never ceases by hatred in this world. > Through loving-kindness it comes to an end. > This is an eternal law. > (eternal in the sense of omni-present) I am not a Buddhist, but actually I am right now reading through the Dhammapada! A Buddhist is more qualified than me to comment on this, but perhaps the meaning here is the same - if you truly love someone who is oppressing, you will try to prevent them from committing oppression. If you truly love someone who is oppressed, you will try to help them against the oppression they are subject to. I know that Buddhism (also in the Dhammapada) teaches that if you do evil, this evil will eventually return to you, so this seems consistent with what I have said about if you love someone who is an oppressor, you will oppose their oppression, and try to stop them, because it is not only for everyone else's good, but also for their own good, both from a Sufi or Buddhist viewpoint. Salam, Farid-ud-dien From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 19:45:57 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08561; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:03:57 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA03894; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:06:02 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA03889; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:06:00 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01I02W8GGH1Y90S2SH@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:45:57 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:45:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: request for salat details To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <01I02W8GGH2090S2SH@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@facteur.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: The Chishti Order has a booklet and tape, though I forget the cost at the moment. The Chishti Order P.O. Box 7249 Endicott, New York 13760 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 22:01:17 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15556; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 18:00:04 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA12825; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:14:18 -0500 Received: from halon.sybase.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA12809; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:14:14 -0500 Received: from sybase.sybase.com (nntp1.sybase.com) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA26656; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:14:20 -0800 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by sybase.sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.4) id AA22200; Tue, 16 Jan 96 14:14:09 PST Received: by serii.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id AA05868; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:01:17 -0800 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:01:17 -0800 From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <9601162201.AA05868@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: request for salat details X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Actually Robert Thompson, now Shaykh Moinuddin Chisti who is a representative of the Chishti Order, has written a book, Sufi Healing, which has a very nice description and explanation of Salat. Same address I believe. Peace, --mateen siddiqui > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 13:28:42 1996 > Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 13:45:57 -0600 (CST) > Subject: Re: request for salat details > To: tariqas@facteur.std.com > > The Chishti Order has a booklet and tape, though I forget the cost at > the moment. > The Chishti Order > P.O. Box 7249 > Endicott, New York 13760 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 22:52:25 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05625; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 18:37:48 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA18132; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:52:44 -0500 Received: from sgi19.phlab.missouri.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA18100; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:52:36 -0500 Received: (from c640429@localhost) by sgi19.phlab.missouri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id QAA02839; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:52:25 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:52:25 -0600 (CST) From: Jawad Qureshi X-Sender: c640429@sgi19.phlab.missouri.edu To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: request for salat details In-Reply-To: <01I02W8GGH2090S2SH@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Salam, check this one out. I really like it a lot. http://cswww2.essex.ac.uk/users/rafiam/Intro.frame_2.html And congratulation on choosing the Truth. Salam Jawad. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 22:55:42 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05431; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 18:37:26 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA18502; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:55:51 -0500 Received: from relay6.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA18487; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:55:48 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzyvb22722; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:55:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA27882 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:55:42 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:55:42 -0500 Message-Id: <960116175538_43804503@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Pointing to New facets [was Re: A Vantage Point called "Saint Worship"] Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: dera Jabriel, What you write below strikes me as very wise *and* practically skillful, as a practice to bring others to learn what is felt worth knowing. thank you, Jabriel, Jinavamsa In a message dated 96-01-16 02:55:38 EST, you write: >>>>>SNIPPED<<<<<<<< > Also I feel that the >individual who began this thread needs to be commended and definitely not >condemned for his quetion as well as his point of view, and rather than >telling him he is wrong it might be much more prudent to point to a facet of >the truth which extends a further glimpse of clarity. Please pardon me if I >seem like I am meddling. Love your brother. Jabriel From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 23:05:30 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17681; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 19:47:32 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA19616; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 18:07:32 -0500 Received: from relay2.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA19601; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 18:07:29 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzyvc01381; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 18:05:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id SAA23370 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 18:05:30 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 18:05:30 -0500 Message-Id: <960116175548_43804698@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Judiaisn, Christianity, Islam and war: The Lie Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Jabriel, Your words roared through me, vibrating to great depths. May it be so for you; may Allah (FULLREALITY) be so, through you and all beings, become manifestations of love (is it not said La illaha illa'ishq?) Jinavamsa In a message dated 96-01-16 02:55:41 EST, you write: >Subj: Judiaisn, Christianity, Islam and war: The Lie >Date: 96-01-16 02:55:41 EST >From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) >Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >Reply-to: tariqas@europe.std.com >To: tariqas@europe.std.com > >HOLY WAR > >The Peace of Hudabiya is over >Now it's time for Holy War. >Don't say you've no stomach for fighting, >Off with their heads! >Oh brothers, I mean this: >Now that your soul is strong >Assail the self. >When an evil thought arises, >Let it go IMMEDIATELY! > >Salaams, > >Ilyas > >Even Murshid Hazarat Inyat Khan spoke of self protection yet I say this: To >my understanding may I be blinded to attack and to defence for here is where >the illusion begins! May my life be dedicated to a model that turns, as >Isaiha would suggest the sword into a plowshare. > >I call myself a Moslem and God willing will take no arms ever against >another - certainly not physically - and may I, God provide for me the >capacity, to stop hurting others in the way we as humans normaly seem to >still interact. > >If the Bible says that God is Vengeful, or the Torah says the same, or the >Qu ran says the same all I can say is that I a Muslim, a Jew, and A >Christian wrote the book wrong - I lied about what the Prophet wrote or had >written or said. I invented a craven image, I created an icon. Allah is >not a God of hate or vengence and violence is only a part of the illusion >which is refered to as we say La and all there is - is Allah. >Allah did not create us lacking in anything - that we lack in anything is a >lie and with that lie we have generated projections illusions and >apperations of grief, pain , sorrow and discord. We are each a mriracle, >but we have forgot we have bought into a lie and we have allowed ourselves >the fate of self trickery and thus have been at war with ourselves, our God >and each other, and will remain being until we both remember and remind each >other of Huk: and always with a twinkle in our eye. >Jabriel >----------------------------------------- > Jabriel Hanafi > Dynamics Unlimited > Suite 806 327 Maitland > Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 >Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 17 01:38:07 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22039; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 21:41:00 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA08538; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 20:59:29 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA08528; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 20:59:26 -0500 Received: from halon.sybase.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24844; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 20:51:04 -0500 Received: from sybase.sybase.com (nntp1.sybase.com) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA18701; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:51:11 -0800 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by sybase.sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.4) id AA12522; Tue, 16 Jan 96 17:50:59 PST Received: by serii.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id AA05982; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:38:07 -0800 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 17:38:07 -0800 From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <9601170138.AA05982@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: submission X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Mateen-- Would you be willing to list "all of the attendant meanings" --or suggest as many as you can--of "He who knows himself knows his God." ("Man 9arafa nafsahu 9arafa rabahu.")? =Mackie= ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Mackie, brothers & sisters, friends, Here are *some* of the meanings that come to my heart, but in no way are official meanings from my shaykhs (though I quote them here and there). Keep in mind these are not official meanings from scholars, with which caveat I begin: O! It is too dangerous to even begin, for what does it mean? 'to know oneself'? Obviously the self is not the Lord, so to know oneself does NOT mean to know your self as lord, MAY GOD FORGIVE US, FOR THAT IS WHAT WE USUALLY DO, but to know the little lord who dominates the true self (ruh wa qalb). That is if you know your self, the ego, which for most human beings is controlling every word, deed and thought; then you know who your lord is, as only those who have left the lordship of their ego can `die before they die'--the prerequisite to reaching the station of Divine nearness. And who can detach from their ego except one who knows it? Because the ego is the most powerful of enemies which a human being faces, as the Prophet (pbuh) said, 'your greatest enemy is your own self which is between your two sides.' The Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) also said, 'if you want to meet someone who has died before he died, look at Abu Bakr as-Siddiq.' Why? Our master Abu Bakr (may God be pleased with him, ra) was invisible. During the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh) and in his presence, he did not manifest. For that reason, the Prophet (pbuh) had to promote him during his final days on this earth, to show the rest of his Companions that 'this is the man to succeed me directly.' Otherwise he would never have 'appeared' as he had no existence in and of himself. He was a shadow of the Prophet (pbuh) and his reflection and loved to remain 'in the shadow' and never appear. However, every caliph--representative--must appear by order of God, and order of the Prophet (pbuh) so it was destined for him to manifest on the passing of the Prophet (pbuh). Similarly, our master Salman al-Farsi (ra) who was our master Abu Bakr's successor in the Naqshbandi lineage of transmission, was wholly invisible in the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh) and in that of Sayiddina Abu Bakr (ra). Even after his appointment as governor of Persia, he never had a home and used to sleep under a tree, always avoiding fame and appearance, always lost in bewilderment of the love of his Prophet (pbuh). Now this is appearance in front of the Perfect Human, Prophet Muhammad we are talking about. What about appearance in front of God. This is another meaning of 'who knows himself knows his lord.' The Prophet (pbuh) wished not to appear in front of God, not to manifest existence. This is the root of the concept of fana', Annihilation. In the Night Journey, when the Prophet (pbuh) reached the Station of Nearness, Maqam al-Qurb, to Allah Almighty and Glorious, God asked him, 'who are you?' He replied, 'You O my Lord' because he no longer perceived his own existence. On the contrary, when souls were first created, God asked them 'who are you?' and the rebellious among them answered, 'we are we and You are You.' That was the answer of their ego... Whoever knows his own or her own self never wants to appear, as the appearance of the self is utterly ugly and debased in front of God. The self is opposite in all qualities to what is Divine. So if you know yourself, you know what your (true) Lord is not, and by means of opposites you know your Lord. It is because of this that when a seeker approaches a true saint he may begin to burn from embarassment. Suddenly all of his nafs' faults will appear to him as gigantic as mountains. He will see himself as the dirtiest and most vile of creatures. This is a miracle of saints, that they are mirrors for seekers. As the Prophet (pbuh) said, "al-mu'min mirat al-mu'min" - "the Believer is a mirror for a believer." The greatness of the mirror is that it only reveals the truth to the person looking into it and never divulges it to anyone else. One's secret ugliness is safe in the trust of the Mirror, as only you the onlooker can behold your faults in it. Similarly, when one is adorned with perfect qualities and characteristics, you will find the saint appearing with perfect qualities and characteristics. Whoever finds the best qualities in a saint, must know that they are reflected in him because they exist in him. Antithetically, Satan, found all bad qualities in Adam and therefore refused to prostrate himself before him. This is the characteristic of the ego, which like fire burns all it touches regardless. At the least it leaves a film of soot. In this Satan projects all his own ugly qualities on Adam, the pure mirror, and deposits all his envy on him as well, sootlike. So our master Muhammad, peace be upon him, approached the Divine Presence when all others were loathe to do so. He was annihilated before he reached that station, as evidenced by this discussion with the archangel Gabriel, peace be upon them: As Gabriel was accompanying him forward in Allah's Stations during the Ascension, apparently as his guide, he reached a station where he stopped. He could not move forward and the Prophet (pbuh) said to him, 'O Gabriel! why are you slowing down? Are you leaving me?' Gabriel replied, 'I cannot go further. Were I to move one step forward from this station I would be burned.' The Prophet (pbuh) however, said, 'no matter, even if I were to burn I cannot stop.' God revealed to the Prophet (pbuh), 'I the Lord, have veiled Myself from the inhabitants of Paradise, as I have veiled myself from the inhabitants of the earth. As I veiled Myself from their minds, I veiled Myself from their vision. I am never in anything and I am never away from anything.' [taken partial excerpts from "Angels Unveiled: a Sufi Perspective", copyright Shaykh Hisham Kabbani, 1995, KAZI.] However, though the Prophet (pbuh) is in ascension, yet he was sent back to this dunya, the worldly life. That is known, when experienced in a reflection of the Prophet's (pbuh) Night Journey by the seekers as the descent from the station of annihilation back to the station of subsistence, called baqa by the Sufis. It is the station of firmness (tamkeen) and perfection. It is this station which exemplifies the difference between Satan and humankind. For Satan was rejected from the Presence of God for his rejection of the Order of God, whereas the Perfect Man, our Master Muhammad (pbuh) was *sent back* to this life while remaining in the Presence of God, in order to guide others to similar stations. Iblis, or Satan on the other hand, did not accept God's orders for him after his disobedience and continued stubbornly to resist and decided in his heart, out of his intense envy of humankind, as represented by the father of humankind, Adam, (pbuh), to turn as many of humankind as he could from the way of connection with God to the way of disconnection from God and attachment to ego. Satan represents the ultimate in ignorance, because though he was fully versed in all that is holy, having attended God along with the angels for thousands of years, and having full knowledge of his own pride, he yet refused God's order on the pretext that to bow to Adam was to lower his ownself. Whereas, according to spiritual knowledge of the prophets, whoever abases himself, especially before God, God raises and esteems. The ego and satan are similar in this quality. However, the ego is easily tricked. That is why the most perfect way to God is to trick and finally subdue the ego, not to kill it. Die before you die! does not mean "slaughter your ego!". Rather it means slaughter your investment in your ego, detach from it completely and have no concern for it. In this way it loses its Pharaon-like status of self-god and is reduced to its true station, the station of the steed of the soul. For this reason the Prophet (pbuh) described the ego as 'the steed of the soul' and saints said the ego is the buraq by which each seeker ascends to his Divine Presence. Thus donkey-like is the ego, that refuses to move even when beaten, like Satan, who knowing his mistake, and after having been punished for it, continued to stubbornly refuse to submit and bow down to the Divinely-powered light shining forth from Adam's. For this reason, who knows the ego, will know the Lord, because once you know the characteristics of the ego, you are able to trick it and finally train it to carry you to the Divine Presence, instead of usual condition of riding you. That is the essence of Sufi Ways--to train the ego, not to kill it dead. Our master, Mawlana Shaykh Nazim says, "always tell your nafs 'cash today, credit tomorrow.'" By this simple trick you get it to obey you, yet it never gets the credit it seeks, nor the gratification. This is similar to the carrot on the stick--the only method which works on a stubborn donkey. It is from this wisdom that the masters of the Naqshbandi have expressed that the stronger and more powerful the ego, the higher the seeker is able to ascend. Now the Prophet (pbuh) was sent back to be the connection, the `silah', between God and man. He was loathe to leave his station of proximity, for which reason God revealed to him that his own prayer would always be an ascension for him. For that reason he said, "the coolness of my eyes is in ritual prayer." "qurrata 'aynee fis-salaat." It is for this reason that saints say that the Prophet's ascension has continued and is even now continuing. For this reason some saints say, "the Prophet (pbuh) is always ascending in the Divine Presence, every moment, every instant. And as the Prophet (pbuh) ascends, so to does his Community. He (pbuh) expressed this when he said "the prayer of the believer is the believer's ascension." The likeness of this is the increase of mankind's knowledge at every moment. The collective knowledge of mankind is increasing at a geometric rate and it cannot be stopped. Similarly, the knowledge of saints, awliya, is also moving upward, and this is a reflection of the Prophet's continuous ascension. This knowledge they do not express to everyone, as this knowledge contains secrets which most of humankind cannot carry. It is however, gifted to the Prophet's (pbuh) community and kept in store for them when they are ready for receiving it. As to who that Community is, that is another subject... That is a brief of some thoughts or inspirations on this subject. I cannot express the kernel of what comes to the heart about this in email. All the faults in this are my own, as due to my weak connection to my master. Forgive me and pray for me. --mateen siddiqui From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 17 02:24:54 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26866; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 21:49:59 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA11213; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 21:25:23 -0500 Received: from netcom10.netcom.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA11204; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 21:25:21 -0500 Received: by netcom10.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id SAA07835; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 18:24:55 -0800 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 18:24:54 -0800 (PST) From: Steven Finkelman Subject: Re: mr. Rose on saint worship To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: <01I0240IYYF890S5FS@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 16 Jan 1996 MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu wrote: > Hal-- > > Would you pleaseexplain to us what you mean when you suggest that "man is > Allah," as in your observation that "Iblis...allows man to know Allah, to > be Allah...to be the Absolute and Formless One." [Uppercase, except for > "Iblis" mine own.] > When one is ground to dust becomes nothing, all that remains is allah. The enabling factor makes this possible. Hal From aorsellidickson@stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au Wed Jan 17 18:32:41 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11772; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 22:18:13 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA17621; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 22:18:11 -0500 From: aorsellidickson@stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au Received: from eagle.ac.cowan.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10218; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 22:14:15 -0500 Received: from stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au (stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au [139.230.161.10]) by eagle.ac.cowan.edu.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA10688 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 11:13:40 +0800 Message-Id: <199601170313.LAA10688@eagle.ac.cowan.edu.au> X-Nvlenv-01Date-Posted: 17-Jan-1996 11:15:18 -0500; at STINGRAY.ac.cowan X-Nvlenv-Content-Subject: Re: your mail- Rumi X-Nvlenv-Mts-Message-Id: 3D1EFD30816C2979 X-Nvlenv-Notify-On-Read: allowed X-Nvlenv-Notify-On-Refusal: allowed X-Nvlipm-Non-Standard: SMF = 000Application-name: PMAIL To: tariqas-approval%world.std.com@stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au Subject: Re: your mail- Rumi Date: 17 Jan 96 18:32:41 GMT X-Nvlipm-Non-Standard: SMF = 000X-NetWare-UIC: AORSELLIDICKSON Status: RO X-Status: Greetings to all On 12 Jan Ilyas Baker quotes a profound passage from mevlana Rumi asking for interpretations. Some very interesting comments have been made by Brad . I would like to address some of the issues from both these contributions. "The sciences are all paintings" It is worth investigating Rumi's aesthetic experience in order to unederstand the deep sense of this statement.In the Masnavi there is a beautiful teaching story called The Chinese and the Greek Artists ( Teachings of Rumi EH Whinfield Octagon Press p.51) In this story the Chinese and the Greeks disputed before the Sultan which of them were the best painters and the dispute is settled in typically sufi way, by demonstration and experience. The sultan gives each a house to be painted. The Chinese paint most elaboratedly and colourfully : "The Greeks...used no colours at all, but contented themselves with cleansing the walls of their house from all filth, and burnishing them till they were as clear and bright as the heavens" This of course refers to the practice of cleansing the nafs( house) from all impurities so that the heart may reflect divine Beauty itself ( the cleansing of the mirror of the heart). Not surprisingly the palm is carried off by the Greeks( sufis/ mystics) : " as all the colours of the other house were reflected on its walls with an endless variety of shades and hues". This passage offers two different perspectives to the issue of knowledge and 'science' here disguised as 'art'. Of course the link between art and science is FORM or pattern, the external embodiment of inner essence. In the sacred science of words , forms and colours correspond to' letters' and 'sounds': they are the carriers of divine energy as Power and Beauty, knowledge and love. In music and dance there is also a correspondence between the formal intellectual element of musical structure and the emotional colour of tone and pitch, and between the interplay of rhythm and melody ( incidentally I always thought melody to be the feminine side and rhythm the masculine, but a friend musician pointed out to me that it is the opposite). The sciences of words, sounds and forms (or icons), of philosophy, theology, poetry, music and art are all related to common universal principles, they are but facets and reflections of the same reality which discloses itself continuosly in infinitely different ways to receptive hearts and minds. Hence the apparent variety of ways, traditions, paths and tariqas, the waves and ripples of multiplicity within the sea of unity. I quote another passage from Rumi: " Many are they who have been captured by form who aimed at form, and found Allah" (Rumi, Masnavi) Is anybody conversant in Persian to tell me which is the word translated here as 'form'? Is it ? or what? It would be interesting to go deeper into it by understanding the etymology, but I know no Arabic nor Persian, only a little Latin... In another passage from Rumi we read of the tree of knowledge: " Very fine, very expansive, the very water of life from the circumfluent ocean. Thou hast run after FORM, o ill-informed one, wherefore thou lackest the fruit of the tree of SUBSTANCE. Sometimes it is named tree, sometimes sun, sometimes lake, and sometimes cloud, It is one, though it has thousand manifestations, tha names that fit it are countless... it has thousands of names, yet it is One, answering to all of His descriptions,. yet indescribable ..Pass over names and look to qualities, so that qualities may lead thee to essence! The differences of sects arise from His names, when they pierce to His Essence they find His peace.' p. 108 And in yet another passage on form: " Since all these forms are slaves of Him without form,... They exist only through Him that is without form... Verily the Absolute Agent is without form, form is only a tool in His hands. Sometimes this Formless One of His mercy shows His face to His forms from behind the veil of non-being, that every form may derive aid therefrom,- from its perfect beauty and power... p. 316 The relationship between art,(san'a) articraft (masnu) and artist also needs to be considered. In Chittick's Sufi Path of Knowledge p.320 I read a quote from Ibn al -Arabi: "How can the artifact know its artisan?. What the artifact demands from the artisan is only the form of the artisan's knowledge of it, not the form of his essence.You are the artifact of Your Creator. So your form corresponds to the form of His knowledge of you, and this is the case with every created thing" Now we can apply this noetically to "sciences" and "art" as well, since these are some of the ways in which creature responds to Allah, desire to be known. So unless these sciences and arts, based on form, imbue the spirit of direct experience, they remain lifeless and separated from the living sap. The Yonder, the realm of Unseen realities, the unknowable cloud ('ama) of divine essence(dhat) condenses itself into FORM (letters, sounds, icons...)because of the breath of divine Mercy ( the sap) which makes the rain overflow from the cloud and feed the tree of our mind-soul. Ars sine scientia nihil...scientia sine arte nihil (art without knowledge is nothing, but knowledge without art is also nothing... but if we take nothing as Buddhist no-thing? The union of beauty and knwledge leads from the realm of 'ex-isting' to the realm oft Being, which is neither existence nor non-existence, the Formless Silence which vibrates in the inner ear of the heart as music ... There is a lot more i would like to say /ask also about sema and music, but i will leave this to next time, I feel i have already abused too much of everybody's attention. Though, should anybody be particularly interested in pursuing the topic of spiritual music i am encouraging them to address me at the following address I look forward to further comments on these issues, as well spiritual dreams Rabia from Australia: aorsellidickson@stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au From hmhsb@mail.med.upenn.edu Wed Jan 17 05:33:56 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14647; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 00:33:23 -0500 Received: from mail.med.upenn.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA06109; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 00:33:19 -0500 Received: (from hmhsb@localhost) by mail.med.upenn.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA13153 for tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 00:33:56 -0500 From: Hesham Bazaraa Message-Id: <199601170533.AAA13153@mail.med.upenn.edu> Subject: subscription To: tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 00:33:56 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23-upenn2.9] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 168 Status: RO X-Status: Peace be unto you I would like to subscribe to your email service, my address is hmhsb@mail.med.upenn.edu. Thank you. -- Hesham M. Bazaraa hmhsb@mail.med.upenn.edu From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 17 05:54:14 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25126; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 01:15:13 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA07963; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 00:55:15 -0500 Received: from relay2.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA07954; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 00:55:12 -0500 From: SheikhDin@aol.com Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzywd23260; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 00:54:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA26885 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 00:54:14 -0500 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 00:54:14 -0500 Message-Id: <960116234615_44223262@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Sufi Trek - Which Generation? Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Hal -- Asalaamu Aleikum! In a message dated 96-01-16 21:26:35 EST, you write: << When one is ground to dust becomes nothing, all that remains is allah. The enabling factor makes this possible. >> Beam me up . . . Scotty . . . Please . . . Istaghfirullah From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 17 04:14:49 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28463; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 04:06:04 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA25433; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 23:19:55 -0500 Received: from soho.ios.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA25428; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 23:19:52 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (ppp-51.ts-1.nyc.idt.net [199.248.149.111]) by soho.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA25775 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 23:14:49 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 23:14:49 -0500 Message-Id: <199601170414.XAA25775@soho.ios.com> X-Sender: kaleema@198.4.75.47 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: "K.Ahmad" Subject: Re: request for salat details Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:26 AM 1/16/96 -0800, you wrote: > >Hello friends, > >Does anybody know of a book or other document or a web page that gives >the details of doing salat. Having receintly taken shahada I feel that >I should get my salat straight. There are those at the masjid that >could help me, but they don't have it written down. When I have asked, >they have given me more information than I can remember. > > > > Dear Brother, I hope this will help. Sorry I couldn't include the the diagrams. Any errors, typos or mistakes are mine. IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL THE CONTENTS OF SALAH Salah in Islam is a uniqe institution, It brings man closer to Allah by harmonising his mental attitude with physical posture. In Salah, a Muslim submits completely himself to his creator. When you are sure that you have fulfilled all the necessary conditions for Salah, you are ready to offer Salah. Say to yourself that you intend to offer this Salah (Fajr, Zuhr, Asr, Maghrib or Isha) Fardh or Sunnah. Then raise your hands to your ears saying: ALLAHU AKBAR (Allah is the greatest) Now placing your right on your left, just below, above or on the navel recite the following: SUBHANAKA ALLAHUMMA WA BI HUMDIKA (O Allah, Glorified, praiseworthy) WATABARAKAS MOKA WATA'ALA JADDOKA (and blessed is Thy name and exalted Thy Majesty) WA LA IHAHA GHAYROKA (and there is no deity worthy of worship except Thee) A'U ZU BIL LA HI MINASHAITANIR RAJIM (I seek refuge in Allah from the rejected Satan) BISMILLA'HIR RAHMAN IR RAHIM (In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful) After this recite the opening Surah, Al-Fatiha: ALHAMDO LIL LAHI RAB BIL A'LAMIN (Praise be for Allah, Lord of the worlds) AR RAHMAN IR RAHIM (tha Beneficent, the Merciful) MALIKI YAU MID DIN (Master of the day of judgement) IYYA KA NA BU DO WA IYYA KA NAS TAEEN (Thee alone we worship and to Thee alone we turn for help) IH DI NAS SI RA TAL MUS TA QEEMA (Guide us in the straight path) SIRA TAL LA ZINA AN AMTA ALAIHIM (the path of those whom You favoured) GHAIRIL MAGH BU BA ALAIHIM (and who did not deservr Thy anger) WA LUD DALL LIN (AMIN) (or went astray) Now recite the following or any other passage from the Holy Qur'an: BIS MIL LA HIR RAHMAN IR RAHIM (In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful) QUL HO WAL LAHO AHAD (Say: Allah is one and the only God) ALLAH HUS SA MAD (Allah, upon whom all depend) LAM YALID WA LAM YU LAD (He begets not, nor is He begotten) WA LAM YA'KUL LA HU KUFU WAN AHAD (and there is nothing which can be compared to Him) Now bow down saying: ALLAHU AKBAR (Allah is the greatest) Place your hands on your knees and in this inclined position (Raku) recite these words thrice: SUBHA NARAB BI YAL AZIM (Glory to my Lord the great) Then come to the standing position saying: SAMI ALLAHU LI MAN HAMIDAH (Allah has heard all who praise Him) RAB BA NA LAKAL HAMD (Our Lord: Praise be to Thee) Now saying "Allah Akbar" prostrate on the ground with your forehead, the knees, the nose and palms of both hands touching the ground. In this position (Sajdah) repeat these words three times at least: SUBHANA RAB BI YAL A'LA (Glory to my Lord, the most high) Sit upright with knees still on the ground and after a moment's rest perform the second Sajdah saying:(same as before) This completes one rakah of salat. The second is said in the same way except that after the second Sajdah you sit back, with the left foot bent towards the right, which should be placed vertical to the mat with the toes touching the mat. The palms should be lifted from the mat and placed on the knees. In this position (Q'Adah) silently say these words (Tashahhud); AT TA HIY YA TO LIL LAHI WAS SALA WATO WA TAY YI BATO (All prayers and worship through words, action and sanctity are for Allah only) AS SA LA MO ALAIKA AY YO HAN NA BIY YO (Peace be on you, O Prophet) WA RAH MA TUL LA HEY WA BARA KA TO HU (And Mercy of Allah and His blessings) AS SALAMU ALAINA WA ALA IBA DIL LAHIS SALI HEEN (Peace be on us and on those who are righteous servants of Allah) ASH HA DU AL LA ILAHA IL LA LAHO (I bear witness to the fact that there is no deity but Allah) WA ASH HA DU AN NA MUHAMMADAN AB DU HU WA RASUL UH (and I bear witness that Muhammad is His slave and messenger) In a three rakah (i.e. Maghrib) or four rakah (like Zuhr, Asr and Isha) salah you stand up for theremaining rakah after Tashahhud. On the ather hand if it is a two rakah (Fajr) salah, keep sitting and after this recite darood (blessing for the Prophet) in these words: ALLAH HUM MA SAL LI ALA MUHAMMAD DIN WA AL'A AALI MUHAMMADIN (O Allah, exalt Muhammad and the followers of Muhammad) KA MAA SAL LAY TA ALA IBRAHEEMA WA ALA AALI IBRAHEEMA (As thou did exalt Ibrahim and his followers) INNA KA HAMEEDUM MAJEED (Thou art the praised, the Glourious) ALLAHUM MA BAA RIK ALA MUHAMMADIN (O Allah, bless Muhammad) WA ALA AALI MUHAMMADIN (and his followers) KA MAABA RAK TA ALA IBRAHEEMA WA ALA IBRAHEEMA (as Thou has blest Ibrahim and his followers). INNA KA HAMEEDUN MAJEED (Thou art the Praised, the Glorious). Then say silently: RABBIJ-ALNI MUQUIMUS-SALATE WA MIN ZURRIYYATI, (O Lord! Make me and my children steadfast in Prayer;) RABBANA WA TAQABBAL DUA RABBANA GHAFIRLI (Our Lord! Accept the prayer. Our Lord! forgive me) WA LIWALIDAYYA WA LIL MU'MINEENA YAUMA YAQOOM UL HISAB (and my parents and believers on the day of judgement) Now turn your face first to the right saying: ASSALAMO ALAIKUM WA RAHMATULLAH (Peace be on you and Allah's blessings) Then turn your face to the left and repeat the above words (aloud). This completes your two rakah salah. The four rakah of Zuhr, Asr and Isha are said in an identical manner with the only difference that in the first two rakah of Zuhr and Asr, Al-Fatiha is said silently while in Isha prayer it is recited aloud. If you are performing a three rakah (like Maghrib) or a four rakah (like Zuhr, Asr and Isha) salah stand up after Tashahud saying ALLAHU AKBAR and recite Al-Fatiha. YOu must remember that Al-Fatiha is always recited silently in the third and fourth rakah of every salah. When you are offering Fardh salah do not recite any additional passage from the Holy Qur'an after Al-Fatiha in the last two rakah. After the second Sajdah in the fourth rakah say the Tashahud, Darood and end with "ASSALAMO ALAIKUM WA RAHMATULLAH to each side (first right, then left). This marks the end of Salah. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 16 19:27:32 1996 Received: from relay5.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06868; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 05:14:19 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzyuu07635; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:06:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA22507; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:34:37 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA22498; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:34:35 -0500 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29157; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 14:28:50 -0500 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id LAA09395 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:27:34 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id LAA08807 for tariqas@world.std.com; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:27:32 -0800 Message-Id: <199601161927.LAA08807@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Buddhism and Sufism (Repost) To: tariqas@world.std.com (Tariqas Elist) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 11:27:32 -0800 (PST) From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 49960116 Peace be upon you, my kin. The following article was posted to alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan and I feel that it states regarding Buddhism precisely what others have said in this forum concerning Islam and more specifically Sufism. I am encouraged by the cross-cultural feel of this elist now and feel comfortable sharing what may be a parallel or reflection of some are claiming is the true Sufi path. At the same time I realize that this issue of the Buddhism/Sufism connec- tion and comparison may not be desired by those who subscribe to tariqas and urge those who do not wish to connect this directly to Sufism in some way to pursue queries in Usenet in alt.religion.buddhism or talk.religion.buddhism forums. Thank you for your time. Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com ----------------------------------------------- post appended |From: trick@ycc.kodak.com (Patrick Walsh) |Newsgroups: alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan |Subject: Re: True practitioners of Buddhism |Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 08:37:38 -0500 |In article , |midgard@tiac.net (Samonji) wrote: |>It seems to me that Buddhism has descened from its true form and path and |>am asking for input on this. Is not the path to enlightenment a path |>shown by no teacher, outlined by no doctrine, and following no laws. Is |>it not true that one must follow one's own path and follow one's own inner |>voice to find Nirvana and enlightenment. No Buddha can explain the |>inexpressable and infathomable experience and feeling of Nirvana and |>enlightenment using such crude tools as words. Should there be people |>going out and buying books to guide their journey instead of actually |>living and undertaking their journey. Is it not against every conception |>of Buddhism to follow another's teachings, or find rules to guide your |>path with. Please send responses to: |>midgard@tiac.net (jon) |Have you been reading Nagarjuna before you are ready? :-) | |Nagarjuna says all of these things, but he also says many things |about having a teacher. The teacher cannot, as you say, give you |his enlightened awareness. Not even the Buddha, himself can do this. | |But what your teacher can do is to guide you on your path. Your |teacher is the source of much knowledge and wisdom, which may not be so |apparent in the early stages of your path. Conventional words and |ideas are useful in guiding the student on the path, up to a point. |Conventionalism will clear away many of the grosser misunderstanding |and obstructions. But to progress beyond this point, you must have |faith in the instruction of your teacher, and devotion for your teacher. | |Nagarjuna teaches that no Buddha can teach you enlightenment, But he also |teaches that no Buddha reached enlightenment without a teacher, and that |includes Shakyamuni Buddha himself. | |-- |"Through its generation, the correct analytical intellect is consumed." | |_kashyapaparivarta_, Bhikkhu Gotama END From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 17 16:56:54 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13589; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:15:35 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA01831; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 11:56:45 -0500 Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA01807; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 11:56:39 -0500 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24872; Wed, 17 Jan 96 08:56:36 PST Received: from antares by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 17 Jan 96 8:56:35 PST Received: from kirin.Tymnet.COM by antares.Tymnet.COM (8.6.5/UCB) id IAA01165; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 08:56:33 -0800 Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA06996; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 08:56:54 -0800 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 08:56:54 -0800 From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore) Message-Id: <9601171656.AA06996@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: request for salat details X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > Dear Brother, I hope this will help. Sorry I couldn't include the the > diagrams. Any errors, typos or mistakes are mine. > > IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL Hello Kaleema, Thanks so much for posting these salat instructions. This in combination with the recomended web page and other materials that people have indicated both on tariqas and via direct email should be enough to guide me on the path most straight. Also, it is gratifying to see how many people will make the effort to help somebody that they don't even know. alhamdulillah -Michael- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 17 18:31:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20766; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 14:44:52 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA13799; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:32:23 -0500 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA13774; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:32:19 -0500 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id KAA15759 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 10:31:03 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id KAA03125 for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 10:31:01 -0800 Message-Id: <199601171831.KAA03125@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Salat: finger-gesture To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 10:31:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <9601171656.AA06996@kirin.Tymnet.COM> from "Michael J. Moore" at Jan 17, 96 08:56:54 am From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1112 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 49960117 Peace be with you, my kin. It was written: |> Dear Brother, I hope this will help. Sorry I couldn't include the the |> diagrams. Any errors, typos or mistakes are mine. |> |> IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, MOST GRACIOUS, MOST MERCIFUL I would also like to express my thanks for this text and ask a followup question regarding salat, since this appears to be an accepted subject topic within this elist: When I visited mosque locally and some sufis (Naqshbandis and Mevlevi I think) I noticed a prevalence of a particular hand-gesture performed within the prayer. It was a single finger pointed outwards away from the body and, it seemed, at very particular times. I have now read more than one analysis of salat and did not see this finger-gesture mentioned within them. I would like to know when this is performed and in relation to what prayers or what part of salat. I'd also like to know if it is common and if it is so, why it wasn't within the post to this elist or the other text I found. Thank you very much for your time. Peace be upon you, my kin. Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 17 20:28:30 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03634; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 16:47:24 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA00685; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 15:26:42 -0500 Received: from sowebo.charm.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA00676; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 15:26:38 -0500 Received: from charm.net by sowebo.charm.net; Wed, 17 Jan 96 15:28 EST Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 15:28:30 -0500 (EST) From: Tony To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Salat: finger-gesture In-Reply-To: <199601171831.KAA03125@jobe.shell.portal.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Length: 674 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, Haramullah wrote: > I have now read more than one analysis of salat and did not see this > finger-gesture mentioned within them. I would like to know when this > is performed and in relation to what prayers or what part of salat. > I'd also like to know if it is common and if it is so, why it wasn't > within the post to this elist or the other text I found. Thank you > very much for your time. Asalaam Alaikum Wa Rahmatullah. I confess that there is no God but God, and I raise my index finger on my right hand to remind me of the One. I do that after the last prostration of the last ra'kah of the prayer. Anthony Teelucksingh From hall@mail.sdsu.edu Thu Jan 18 01:06:46 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18545; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 20:12:41 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA03468; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 20:12:40 -0500 Received: from mail.sdsu.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15773; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 20:06:48 -0500 Received: (from hall@localhost) by mail.sdsu.edu (8.7.1/8.6.11) id RAA13365; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:06:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:06:46 -0800 (PST) From: Linda elaine Hall To: owner-tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Majordomo results: Filthy talk! (fwd) I'm really pissed now! Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: A BODY I hope you can figure this out! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 19:56:25 -0500 From: Majordomo@world.std.com To: hall@mail.sdsu.edu Subject: Majordomo results: Filthy talk! -- >>>> Hey, I just today subscribed to this group!..Man-o-man...what kind of **** Command 'hey,' not recognized or too many subscribes. >>>> sickos are members? I thought htis group was moderated? The first post **** Command 'sickos' not recognized or too many subscribes. >>>> I received was disgusting! Prejudiced! And Racist! It was by a Tony at **** Command 'i' not recognized or too many subscribes. >>>> . He made filth out of the Fatiyah! **** Command '.' not recognized or too many subscribes. >>>> >>>> A pissed off Muslima, **** Command 'a' not recognized or too many subscribes. >>>> >>>> Jamilla **** Command 'jamilla' not recognized or too many subscribes. >>>> **** No valid commands found. **** Commands must be in message BODY, not in HEADER. **** Help for Majordomo@world.std.com: This is Brent Chapman's "Majordomo" mailing list manager, version 1.93. The Majordomo program running on world.std.com is administrated by majordomo-owner@world.std.com (not Brent - he doesn't work here). Each mailing list has its own administrator to which any mailing list problems should first be addressed. The owner can be reached at owner-listname@world.std.com, where 'listname' is the name of the mailing list. The addresses above reach real people. If you want to use the commands listed below, send them to majordomo@world.std.com only! If you reply to this message, it will go to live people. 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END From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 18 00:47:59 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19629; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 20:16:08 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA00767; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 19:48:05 -0500 Received: from mail.sdsu.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA00762; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 19:48:01 -0500 Received: (from hall@localhost) by mail.sdsu.edu (8.7.1/8.6.11) id QAA11571; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 16:48:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 16:47:59 -0800 (PST) From: Linda elaine Hall To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Salat: finger-gesture In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: WOW! This is the first post I've received, for I just subscribed this morning! WOW! On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, Tony wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, Haramullah wrote: > > > > > I have now read more than one analysis of salat and did not see this > > finger-gesture mentioned within them. I would like to know when this > > is performed and in relation to what prayers or what part of salat. > > I'd also like to know if it is common and if it is so, why it wasn't > > within the post to this elist or the other text I found. Thank you > > very much for your time. > I missed this one! Can someone enlighten me to its contents? > Asalaam Alaikum Wa Rahmatullah. I confess that there is no God but > God, and I raise my index finger on my right hand to remind me of the > One. I do that after the last prostration of the last ra'kah of the prayer. > > Anthony Teelucksingh I "hate" to say this Tony...but, you are disgusting! And definitely NOT a Muslim! Jamilla> From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 18 01:23:52 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17355; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 21:07:49 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA05139; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 20:26:10 -0500 Received: from sowebo.charm.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA05126; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 20:26:06 -0500 Message-Id: <9601172026.AA20393@sowebo.charm.net> Received: from charm.net by sowebo.charm.net; Wed, 17 Jan 96 20:25 EST Content-Length: 369 Content-Type: text Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Anthony V. Teelucksingh" Organization: Rodgers Forge in Towson, Maryland To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 20:23:52 -500 Subject: Re: Salat: finger-gesture Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > I "hate" to say this Tony...but, you are disgusting! And > definitely NOT a Muslim! > > Jamilla> Excuse me? Why don't you buy a book on manners -- you could use some. And who are you to tell me that I'm not a muslim? I raise that finger in the manner in which I was taught, as does the entire masjid. Maybe you don't know which finger is the index finger? From aorsellidickson@stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au Thu Jan 18 19:22:33 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21667; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 23:11:45 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA23183; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 23:11:45 -0500 From: aorsellidickson@stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au Received: from relay1.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20118; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 23:08:03 -0500 Received: from eagle.ac.cowan.edu.au by relay1.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzyzo11658; Wed, 17 Jan 1996 23:05:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au (stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au [139.230.161.10]) by eagle.ac.cowan.edu.au (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id MAA05608 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:03:33 +0800 Message-Id: <199601180403.MAA05608@eagle.ac.cowan.edu.au> X-Nvlenv-01Date-Posted: 18-Jan-1996 12:05:10 -0500; at STINGRAY.ac.cowan X-Nvlenv-Content-Subject: Re: Salat: finger-gesture X-Nvlenv-Mts-Message-Id: B27DFE30816C2979 X-Nvlenv-Notify-On-Read: allowed X-Nvlenv-Notify-On-Refusal: allowed X-Nvlipm-Non-Standard: SMF = 000Application-name: PMAIL To: tariqas-approval%world.std.com@stingray.ac.cowan.edu.au Subject: Re: Salat: finger-gesture Date: 18 Jan 96 19:22:33 GMT X-Nvlipm-Non-Standard: SMF = 000X-NetWare-UIC: AORSELLIDICKSON Status: RO X-Status: >Subject: Salat: finger-gesture >To: tariqas@facteur.std.com >Date: 17-Jan-1996 10:31:00 -0800 >From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >Reply-to: tariqas@facteur.std.com > >About this: +++++++ >I'd also like to know if it is common and if it is so, why it wasn't >within the post to this elist or the other text I found. Thank you >very much for your time. >++++++++ salaaams, I belong to the Jerrahi Halveti tariqa, but when I was shown how to perform salat by sheikh Gabriel Mandel Khan, a Naqshbandi, he told me that the pointing of the finger (to signify the unitarian principle) is done in his tariqa. I do not know if other turuq also use the same gesture (definitely not a rude finger gesture!), but I often use it since it seems a beautiful way to reinforce the spoken testimony. I hope this may help. I must confess I cannot recall from my visits in Turkey whether I ever saw this done... Rabia from Australia > > >Haramullah >tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 18 06:34:50 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17704; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 02:08:02 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA06405; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 01:46:06 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA06394; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 01:46:03 -0500 Received: from mucc.mahidol.ac.th by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13088; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 01:41:20 -0500 Received: from [202.14.162.158] ([202.14.162.158]) by mucc.mahidol.ac.th (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA14357 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:34:50 +0700 (GMT) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:34:50 +0700 (GMT) Message-Id: <199601180634.NAA14357@mucc.mahidol.ac.th> X-Authentication-Warning: mucc.mahidol.ac.th: Host [202.14.162.158] didn't use HELO protocol X-Sender: fribk@mucc.mahidol.ac.th X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: fribk@mahidol.ac.th (iljas baker) Subject: Books on Rumi Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Can anyone tell me where I can get a new or second hand copy of the following two books: 1.Rumi the Persian: Rebirth in Creativity and Love by R.Arasteh 2.The Metaphysics of Rumi by Kh. Abdul Hakim Thank you Salaams, Ilyas **************************************************************************** Ilyas Baker,Faculty of Social Sciences and Humanities, Mahidol University, Salaya, Nakhon Pathom 73170, Thailand. Tel.662-441-9324 Fax. 662-441-9738 "Each and every part of the world is a snare for the fool and a means of deliverance for the wise."--Jalaludin Rumi **************************************************************************** From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 18 06:34:58 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17996; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 02:10:20 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA06191; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 01:43:12 -0500 Received: from mucc.mahidol.ac.th by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA06125; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 01:41:27 -0500 Received: from [202.14.162.158] ([202.14.162.158]) by mucc.mahidol.ac.th (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA14366 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:34:58 +0700 (GMT) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:34:58 +0700 (GMT) Message-Id: <199601180634.NAA14366@mucc.mahidol.ac.th> X-Authentication-Warning: mucc.mahidol.ac.th: Host [202.14.162.158] didn't use HELO protocol X-Sender: fribk@mucc.mahidol.ac.th X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3b4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: fribk@mahidol.ac.th (iljas baker) Subject: Re: Anthony and Jamilla Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >> I "hate" to say this Tony...but, you are disgusting! And >> definitely NOT a Muslim! >> >> Jamilla> > > >Excuse me? Why don't you buy a book on manners -- >you could use some. And who are you to tell me that I'm not >a muslim? I raise that finger in the manner in which I was >taught, as does the entire masjid. Maybe you don't know >which finger is the index finger? Please Anthony and Jamilla do not use the tariqas list for a personal scrap. It will soon be Ramadhan, please put your ill feelings towards each other aside. Salaams, Ilyas **************************************************************************** Ilyas Baker,Faculty of Social Sciences and Humanities, Mahidol University, Salaya, Nakhon Pathom 73170, Thailand. Tel.662-441-9324 Fax. 662-441-9738 "Each and every part of the world is a snare for the fool and a means of deliverance for the wise."--Jalaludin Rumi **************************************************************************** From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 18 07:27:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25608; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 02:57:40 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA08937; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 02:28:07 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA08932; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 02:28:00 -0500 Received: from Wedge.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0tcolH-0005YWC; Wed, 17 Jan 96 23:27 PST Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Jan 96 23:27 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Re: Salat: finger-gesture Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I use to watch my father when doing ziker raise his right index finger and circle it around his head as he said La illah ha il illa. Please I do not think that anyone here was trying to be scatological. And let me be the first to admit that when I first read the subject two days ago my mind immdiately was on gaurd. We do so much harm in the model of defence and attack: like dogs chassing their own tails in vicious circles. My warmest love. Jabriel ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 18 07:54:26 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00961; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 03:33:12 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA10285; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 02:54:43 -0500 Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA10280; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 02:54:34 -0500 Received: from localhost (darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.6.4/8.6.4) id SAA00369; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 18:54:28 +1100 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 18:54:26 +1100 (EST) From: Fred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Welcome, Jamilla! In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, Linda elaine Hall wrote: > WOW! This is the first post I've received, for I just subscribed this > morning! WOW! [...] > Jamilla> Jamilla, Welcome to the list !! :) Wassalam, Farid-ud-dien (Fred Rice) From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 18 11:57:47 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02618; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 07:30:29 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA20511; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 07:00:44 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA20505; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 07:00:42 -0500 Received: from relay6.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26506; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 06:59:11 -0500 Received: from VX23.CC.MONASH.EDU.AU by relay6.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzzat22997; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 06:59:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au by vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (PMDF V5.0-4 #8933) id <01I0686P58JK9EMZCT@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> for tariqas@world.std.com; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 22:57:47 +1100 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 22:57:47 +1100 From: D A Rice Subject: RUMI: This is Love! To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01I0686P6A829EMZCT@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: This is Love! Flying to the heavens, tearing, every instant, a hundred veils! The first moment to renounce life, The last step to travel without feet! To see this world as invisible. Not to see what appears to your self. "O Heart," I said, "may you be blessed to have entered the lovers' circle! To look beyond the range of the eye's vision, to penetrate the passages of the soul! How did this breath come to you, my Soul? How this throbbing, my Heart? Bird - speak the birds' language, I can understand your hidden meaning!" The Soul answered, "I was in the Divine Factory, while the dwelling of clay and water was baking. I was flying away from this material workshop, while the workshop was being created. When I could resist no more, they dragged me, and moulded me into shape, like a ball." (From Jalaluddin Rumi's Divani Shamsi Tabrizi, based on the translation by R. A. Nicholson.) This poem and others are available from the web page http://www.physics.monash.edu.au/~darice/rumi.html From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 18 12:48:06 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06572; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 08:23:13 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA23470; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 07:50:16 -0500 Received: from sowebo.charm.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA23424; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 07:50:11 -0500 Message-Id: <9601180750.AA00353@sowebo.charm.net> Received: from charm.net by sowebo.charm.net; Thu, 18 Jan 96 07:49 EST Content-Length: 448 Content-Type: text Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Anthony V. Teelucksingh" Organization: Rodgers Forge in Towson, Maryland To: fribk@mahidol.ac.th (iljas baker), tariqas@facteur.std.com Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 07:48:06 -500 Subject: Re: Anthony and Jamilla Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > Please Anthony and Jamilla do not use the tariqas list for > a personal scrap. It will soon be Ramadhan, please put > your ill feelings towards each other aside. Salaams, Brothers and Sisters, It's been resolved and there'll be no more of this among the two of us, anyway. Salaam -- Anthony V. Teelucksingh tony@charm.net "Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk." -- Henry David Thoreau From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 17 00:09:31 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00153; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 09:46:38 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA29445; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 19:39:13 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA29405; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 19:39:07 -0500 Received: from tide03.microsoft.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20615; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 19:10:26 -0500 Received: by tide03.microsoft.com; id QAA05532; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:18:36 -0800 Received: from unknown(157.54.17.73) by tide03.microsoft.com via smap (g3.0.3) id xma005402; Tue, 16 Jan 96 16:18:07 -0800 Received: from xnet2 (xnet2.microsoft.com [157.54.17.205]) by imail1.microsoft.com (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA06285 for ; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:13:08 -0800 (PST) X-Received: from red-42-msg by xnet2 with receive; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:09:51 -0800 X-Msmail-Message-Id: 3E978D8A X-Msmail-Conversation-Id: 3E978D8A From: Richard Rozsa To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Tue, 16 Jan 96 16:09:31 PST Subject: URL for the Threshold Society... X-Msxmtid: red-42-msg960117000944MTP[01.52.00]000000b3-25090 Message-Id: red-42-msg960117000944MTP[01.52.00]000000b3-25090 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Here's a web page that some of you may be interrested in. Among other things, it has a listing of books available from Threshold Books, new translations of Mevlana Jelalluddin Rumi's poetry, translations of Hadith, information about the Mevlevi Order of dervishes, the weekly themes from the Threshold Society and information about the work of Kabir and Camille Helminski. "THE THRESHOLD SOCIETY is an educational foundation rooted in the Mevlevi Sufi tradition whose purpose is to facilitate the experience of Divine unity, love and wisdom in the world." URL: http://www.webcom.com/threshld/ All the best, Richard. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 17 00:09:36 1996 Received: from relay5.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AB00412; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:11:28 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzzbg03469; Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:10:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA26820; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 19:09:41 -0500 Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA26812; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 19:09:37 -0500 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09457; Tue, 16 Jan 96 16:09:18 PST Received: from antares by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 16 Jan 96 16:09:17 PST Received: from kirin.Tymnet.COM by antares.Tymnet.COM (8.6.5/UCB) id QAA20204; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:09:16 -0800 Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA06670; Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:09:36 -0800 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 16:09:36 -0800 From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore) Message-Id: <9601170009.AA06670@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: request for salat details X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: ----- Begin Included Message ----- Salam, check this one out. I really like it a lot. http://cswww2.essex.ac.uk/users/rafiam/Intro.frame_2.html And congratulation on choosing the Truth. Salam Jawad. ----- End Included Message ----- That is a wonderful web page! So much detail, more than I had dared to hope for. Now that I have a detailed format and the English words, it will not be difficult to substitute the Arabic phrases. A-Salam-alaykum wa rhamatuallah, -Michael- ----- End Included Message -----