From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Sun Jul 21 14:48:29 1996 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 12:06:41 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #56 tariqas-digest Friday, 12 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 056 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Rice Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 08:26:30 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Reading Assalamu alaikum, On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, frank gaude wrote: > I guess the point is, what I get out of teacher, community is 10 timees, ney, > 10,000 times more valuable than from that of reading. It's that simple, at > least for me now it is... I've found dhikr (by yourself or with a group) or meditation (again, by yourself or with a group) are in general of much more benefit than reading, but perhaps this is only once you have read a certain amount, Allah knows best. As Kaffea Lalla (I think) said, there is a big difference between reading and doing. Anyhow, I will be off the list for about a week, because I'm heading interstate for a physics conference. Catchy'all later! :) Wassalam, Fariduddien ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 16:04:56 -0700 Subject: Re: Qur'an, Question 1 Erik , Thanks for you explanation. I find it is full of terms that I am glad to know. If I understand, the earthly Qur'an is a representation of the heavenly one. I wonder if the takwini could have been expressed as a different tadwini. If the takwini must continue to express itself, then shouldn't there be a tadwini that is also unfolding? Hmmm, just a thought. Maybe in each of the worlds there is a different tadwini. Your Brother Michael M. ------------------------------ From: "Erik S. Ohlander" Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:53:28 Subject: Re: Qur'an, Question 1 >Thanks for you explanation. I find it is full of terms that I >am glad to know. If I understand, the earthly Qur'an is a >representation of the heavenly one. > >I wonder if the takwini could have been expressed as a >different tadwini. If the takwini must continue to express >itself, then shouldn't there be a tadwini that is also >unfolding? Hmmm, just a thought. Maybe in each of the >worlds there is a different tadwini. This is an interesting proposition. The way I read it is if God had willed, he could have expressed the 'cosmic plan' in terms of a different 'terrestial form'; but he gave us the Qur'an for a reason, perhaps it is the best formulation of the takwini for our understanding? As to your second query, I think that because of our, very human, need for consistancy a stable (that is static) form of scripture (i.e., the text of the Qur'an) is the best possible. However, within many circles, espically Sufi and batini ones, the idea that the terrestial Qur'an (i.e., the one we read) does indeed continually unfold and express its different meanings as we develop the capacity to understand these 'other' levels. So, in a way, the Qur'an is a dynamic extant, and is constantly unfolding itself within out apperantly static experience. Such are the mysteries of God! On another note, Prof. Nasr's book (that I quoted before) is one of the best introductions to Islam in English that I have ever found. His angle is one which, in my estimation, resonates deeply with those of us who are concerned with the more 'mystical' (and I use hesitate to use this term) dimensions of human religious experience. I orginally was introduced to his work by my Arabic professor, and since then have recommended him to many inquisitive minds. Anyway; always a very interesting discussion. Peace my brother- Erik. ------------------------------ From: Martin Schell Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 06:45:29 +0700 Subject: experience of new medium >From Jabriel Hanafi's recent post: Some of us, certainly this is the case >with myself, lend something less than diplomacy when using this medium. It >is a new medium and I discern we each are trying new ways to communicate as >well as exchange information of value and benifit to one another. - --Like all other manifestations of the Creator, this new form of technology provides an avenue for self-observation. Especially: 1. What do we feel when we see a message from someone in the In-box? 2. What do we feel when we recognize the subject and/or sender? 3. What do we feel when we sit in front of a machine that enables rapid communication? 4. In what sense does the opportunity or capacity for rapid communication lead to a tendency to reply rapidly? 5. How does the social/electronic medium "freeze" momentary emotions so that they become "solid" experiences that transmit to others and then spark a response, which may not have been what we hoped to evoke? martindo ------------------------------ From: Lilyan Kay Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Reading asalaam-u-aleikum On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, Fred Rice wrote: > I've found dhikr (by yourself or with a group) or meditation (again, > by yourself or with a group) are in general of much more benefit than > reading, but perhaps this is only once you have read a certain amount, > Allah knows best. As Kaffea Lalla (I think) said, there is a big > difference between reading and doing. I am finding this idea "doing is better than reading" to be a non sequitur. It is like saying that giving birth is better than attending childbirth classes. I think of these as complementary activities, not as either/or. The former is far more apt to change one's state and level of knowing on deeper levels. That doesn't mean that educating onesself is useless, although it would be ludicrous and impossible to read books while giving birth. It would be like reading a book during the sohbet. It seems particularly off the mark to cite the example of Shams-i-Tabriz throwing Mevlana Rumi's books down the well as justification for this view. How would we know about this event or any of his life or work unless we read books? I am also not able to make what seems to me a huge leap - from Shams-i-Tabriz' action in relation to Mevlana Rumi, to myself acting unilaterally. Imitation cannot in any way take the place of a Sheikh, and in fact can lead one farther away from the truth as the actions being imitated are taken out of their context. Lily ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 23:18:07 +0100 Subject: Shaikh I've been hearing about how I need a Shaikh, hope thats spelled right, and then realized that the Shaikh in our order is the Shaikh (I'm not sure if its spelled right) of our initiator, or guide. I live in a town where only about 15-25 sufies exist, and we have not been here that long. Anyway our initiator is trained to do what he does, and under the auspicies of the Shaikh in our order. And when I am able to get to Sufi Camp, I see the Shaikh and then learn more. It was two years ago, I became initiated into the SIRS Order. Some tragic things happened, the death of my friend and other things so my first yr in Sufi was very blurry, much of the time in hospitals, and deeply depressed. This last year has been a slow uphill climb, and the last three months bliss, except for my Son in-laws death on the 22th of May. I am amazed though how in so short a time in the sufi path, that my life has changed; and also I have a long way to go. If I have been over enthusiastic, and everything, its just that I had been so isolated and in pain for so long, and the joy and serenity I now have is just more than I could ever have imagined. Thankyou with bearing with me through these ramblings. Kaffea Lalla. ------------------------------ From: gws@wolfenet.com Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:15:20 -0700 Subject: Re: More Questions >Jacquie Weller wrote: >> >> >From my background in reading the King James Bible, and the Quaran a little, >> I am left with many doubts. Parts speak right to my heart and I can say >>AH yes, >> other parts, I do not understand. >snip- >> Love Kaffea Lalla. > >You are right to have reservations. This is why it is important to have >a shaykh, (teacher). For example, did you know that the New Testament >tells us the Isa (Jesus) brings a 'new covenant'. This means that >'an eye for an eye' is out and 'turn the other cheek' is in. >Did you know that in reading the Quran, if there is a seeming >conflict between suras, the later sura overrides the earlier one? >There are so many ways to get the wrong meaning from these books. > >The Quaran says, kill the kafir (un-believer) that is nearest to you. >Some have taken this to mean that you may kill non-muslims. >A good shaykh will tell you that it refers to your nafs,- you >must kill your nafs. > >So, to me, you seems to be in the right place. >-- >Best Wishes, >Brother Michael http://home.aol.com/michaeljm8 Salaams And even further, that you should not and cannot kill your nefs, but rather transform them to be support for the awakening soul since one is the lower to the other. Habib N. ------------------------------ From: gws@wolfenet.com Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 00:38:22 -0700 Subject: Re: Questions >>It is easy to become "too attached" to Law. I spent many years >"too attached" to it, because I knew nothing else, which is why >I have some knowledge of these things. The essence is in the >Spirit, without this, Law is nothing (though not useless). > >Peace, > >Fariduddien Salaams Fariduddien, Yet, like a sound house, the Spirit/Soul needs a good foundation. What is the right ground to build upon (the Sunnah and patience)? Is the location too close to low points which flood it (bad ideas and habits)? What is the best material and construction for a strong foundation (faith and practice)? When these are the foundation of your life, then the House of Allah will open in your heart and you will have the possibility of the miraj in every prayer. Habib N. ------------------------------ From: gws@wolfenet.com Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 01:11:45 -0700 Subject: Re: Quran 9:5 >Bismillahirrahmanirahim. > >Assalamu'alaykum, > >At 09:25 PM 7/9/96 -0400, Muhsin wrote: >..... >>To read a book, even a holy book, is one thing. But the real learning >>begins when one begins to read a Living Book. This is why I think the >>spiritual teacher/guide is so important in sufism. To find, or to be found, >>by one who actuates?, lives, possesses The Message in the heart, is truly a >>blessing. >> >>It has been said that Muhammed read the book of his heart, read his nafs. >>Was the Quran revealed by an external Gabriel? Impossible - Allah has no >>partners. Illusions - There is no external. Truth/Reality/Love/God is One! >> >..... >> >>Even the best of books can only allude to such realities. >> >> >> > > >There is a little note above my Sufi master's huge collection of Sufi books: >"Read these books, and you won't get smart." >Any comment...? > > >Wassalamu'alaykum, > > >Michael Roland Salaams Perhaps reading which leads to action leads to wisdom leads to closeness wherein getting smart is irrelevant. Habib N. ------------------------------ From: Salikun@vnet.net Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:08:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Reading Assalaamu alaikum. Lily wrote: > >I am finding this idea "doing is better than reading" to be a non >sequitur. It is like saying that giving birth is better than attending >childbirth classes. I think of these as complementary activities, not as >either/or. Amin Lily, Certainly, attending childbirth classes can not "replace" childbirth and "doing is better than reading." Yet, there still is benefit in reading. Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful - delivered to humanity a Beautiful Book. There is no account I have discovered of Rumi throwing Torah, Gospels, or Quran in the well. "And if thou art in doubt concerning that which WE have sent down to thee, ask those who have been reading The Book before thee. Indeed the truth has come to thee from thy Lord, be not, therefore, of those who doubt." (Quran, 10:95) Reading in between doings, Muhsin ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:33:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Seven Sips of Ali Haydar (fwd) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:57:18 +0300 (EET DST) Message-Id: <199607110857.LAA26988@nina.kolumbus.fi> X-Sender: thomce@mail.kolumbus.fi X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_837114327==_" To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com From: Thomas McElwain Subject: Seven Sips of Ali Haydar X-Attachments: C:\WPDOCS\DEM.ASC; - --=====================_837114327==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" - --=====================_837114327==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="DEM.ASC" The Seven Sips of Ali Haydar What use are autumn rains With harvest in, what use? For beauty autumn treats want sun, Unless the glow of fire stains The leaves to show the rain's excuse. Bright black clouds overrun The day's work I have not yet done. How delicate is snow. Her master is the wind, Her mistress and her home the earth, One blind, one dumb, as rulers go Not worse than some for whom I've sinned. How delicate snow's birth, How slight her death, how brief her worth. I think One changes not >From this bare fact that breath To breath rekindles memory's soul. The tracks of God in human lot Efface the sod of Ashtoreth, Make spring and autumn whole, The day and night one fruit-filled bowl. The City and its Gate Are of one blood and light, Yet only deep prostration makes A pathway clear, inviolate Of any fear of storm or night. The traveller once mistakes The call to dawn prayer as he wakes. A man with bare red feet, A wife as like as twins, Two pigeons on the river bank Walked side by side and turned to greet Or else confide their lack of sins. There where the heavens sank Is where the pigeons stopped and drank. A sweeter sap I sip, The Loved One sips with me As jewelled ecstacies go by. I dream in peace, till, dawnings slip In my release, I plainly see I tread alone the sky. Al-Haqq, Beloved One, Thou art I. My call in silence spoke To the four winds along The corridors of seven days. Above the birch the morning broke As though in search of some new song. Its light at last betrays The star engulfed that taught my ways. - --=====================_837114327==_-- ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:35:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Reading (fwd) To: tariqas From: Sayeed Siddiqui/scnm/Stentor Date: 11 Jul 96 11:31:14 Subject: Re: Reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain > Michael Roland wrote: > > >There is a little note above my Sufi master's huge collection of Sufi books: > >"Read these books, and you won't get smart." > >Any comment...? - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peace to All; I have recently joined this forum and like the topics being discussed. I am eliciting my opinion regarding above quote inviting comments. I feel that being Intellectual does not qualify for being Intelligent. Intellect is a acquired faculty of learning through reading and exploring while wisdom (or being smart) is usually a inborn characteristic. Knowledge does not guarantee understanding. I have met extremely Intelligent people who are considered illiterate by society and vice versa. My opinion is that the degree of exposure to any subject is usually circumstantial. Best regards; Sayeed ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 07:24:36 -0700 Subject: Re: Shaikh Hello, dear Kaffea! > I've been hearing about how I need a Shaikh, hope that's spelled right, and > then realized that the Shaikh in our order is the Shaikh (I'm not sure if > its spelled right) of our initiator, or guide. In SIRS we spell it Sheikh, who is a first line teacher (Sheikha for female teacher)... the Sheikh of Sheikhs is the Murshid, or Murshida for a female. Pir is the head of the Order or Society. Pir-O-Murshid is the founder of the Order. Sheikh is Arabic, Pir and Murshid is Persian, and thus some confusion. Murshid means "guide" in Persian, and is considered the "one who has been there". > I live in a town where only > about 15-25 sufies exist, and we have not been here that long. I live in a town where I am the only sufi. Murshida is over three drive away. [...] > If I have been over enthusiastic, and everything, its just that I had been > so isolated and in pain for so long, and the joy and serenity I now have is just > more than I could ever have imagined. Dear one, you are a joy to us... we love you! Come, let us share all together, for the One is in us and we in the One, right down to the last atom, beyond materiality, tanzen ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 07:24:36 -0700 Subject: Re: Shaikh Hello, dear Kaffea! > I've been hearing about how I need a Shaikh, hope that's spelled right, and > then realized that the Shaikh in our order is the Shaikh (I'm not sure if > its spelled right) of our initiator, or guide. In SIRS we spell it Sheikh, who is a first line teacher (Sheikha for female teacher)... the Sheikh of Sheikhs is the Murshid, or Murshida for a female. Pir is the head of the Order or Society. Pir-O-Murshid is the founder of the Order. Sheikh is Arabic, Pir and Murshid is Persian, and thus some confusion. Murshid means "guide" in Persian, and is considered the "one who has been there". > I live in a town where only > about 15-25 sufies exist, and we have not been here that long. I live in a town where I am the only sufi. Murshida is over three drive away. [...] > If I have been over enthusiastic, and everything, its just that I had been > so isolated and in pain for so long, and the joy and serenity I now have is just > more than I could ever have imagined. Dear one, you are a joy to us... we love you! Come, let us share all together, for the One is in us and we in the One, right down to the last atom, beyond materiality, tanzen ------------------------------ From: Martin Schell Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 22:46:19 +0700 Subject: Read! Don't "get smart". Friends on the Path: I have read the half-dozen or so recent posts on "reading" and how it is "better" to do something else more "practical". It sounds to me rather like some people have gotten tired of using their ability to read and/or excited by new-found emotions along the spritual path. It is good to remember that many Sufis wrote books AFTER reaching ectasies and other high states of realization. Therefore, there is no "sequential" hierarchy like "books are for early stages". The path seems to involve reading at some stages, experiences at others, and sometimes both. Different activities for different moments. No contradiction. Lily's remark (see below) is quite a good reminder to look closely at our tendency to make polarities and opposities when it is more fruitful to see different activities as complements. >I am finding this idea "doing is better than reading" to be a non >sequitur. It is like saying that giving birth is better than attending >childbirth classes. I think of these as complementary activities, not as >either/or. The former is far more apt to change one's state and level of >knowing on deeper levels. That doesn't mean that educating onesself is >useless, although it would be ludicrous and impossible to read books >while giving birth. It would be like reading a book during the sohbet. > >It seems particularly off the mark to cite the example of Shams-i-Tabriz >throwing Mevlana Rumi's books down the well as justification for this >view. How would we know about this event or any of his life or work >unless we read books? > >I am also not able to make what seems to me a huge leap - from >Shams-i-Tabriz' action in relation to Mevlana Rumi, to myself acting >unilaterally. Imitation cannot in any way take the place of a Sheikh, and >in fact can lead one farther away from the truth as the actions being >imitated are taken out of their context. > >Lily > > Finally, I would like to go back to the initial remark/challenge: > > >> Michael Roland wrote: > > >There is a little note above my Sufi master's huge collection of Sufi books: > >"Read these books, and you won't get smart." > >Any comment...? There is an idiom in English called "get smart" or "be smart" which refers to an attitude of arrogance. I recall hearing it as a mild rebuke from my parents 30 years ago in the USA: "Don't get smart" did not mean "Be stupid" but rather "Don't make up some clever excuse for your disobedience." In this context, perhaps the sufi master was saying, "Read these books and your intellect will gain depth. You will no longer be a slave of arrogance and superficial thinking." Martin ------------------------------ From: Martin Schell Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 22:46:02 +0700 Subject: RE: Reading First, Fariduddien wrote: >>If I remember right, didn't Shamsuddin Tabrizi burn all of Jalaluddin >>Rumi's books? Then, Nur replied: >Well, I remember it being that Shams threw the books in a well. Now, I recount: I think Shams was thrown into the well! The book "When Two Oceans Meet" suggests that Rumi's students became jealous of the "special" status of Shams and killed him. Martin ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:04:12 -0700 Subject: Re: Reading Salikun@vnet.net wrote: > > Assalaamu alaikum, > > Michael Roland wrote: > > >There is a little note above my Sufi master's huge collection of Sufi books: > >"Read these books, and you won't get smart." > >Any comment...? I think it has something to do with Secret Agent Maxwell Smart. ;-) - -- Michael Moore home page --> http://home.aol.com/michaeljm8 ------------------------------ From: CWoodsong@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 12:07:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Reading Hello dear friends! such interesting stuff here!! Muhsin! :) >It seems to me, learning is a process of knowing, embedded in the personal >history of the knower. But I'm drifting here; I like your drift! :) Like a piece of finely sculpted driftwood waiting on the beach... to be discovered! <I learn best from experience. Reading requires very little action and >involvement. The learning I seek is life-long-learning, ya know?, like >learning to speak or learning to ride a bike learning. Lets leave that Yes... YES! My children did not go to school, nor did i 'teach' them to read... in fact, i discouraged it when they were very young. (Little good it did! My younger son learned to read when he was about 3 years old. :) Indigenous Peoples often did not have a written language. People were connected to the Earth... connected to Experience. There seems to be a 'shift' when people begin to read. A mother of "home educated" children related a story of her two children going out to watch birds. One of the children at the time was a "reader", the other wasn't. They were about 10 or 12 years old, if i remember correctly. They spotted some birds. While the non-reader was busy experiencing the birds, being with them... the reader was busy looking in a book ABOUT them. As the story was related, it was the non-reader who really knew the birds, who really learned something. The reader (i saw myself in this role, when i first heard this story) was removed from the REAL. (hi, tanzen! ;) I've seen this 'story' repeated over and over... i see it in myself... I have many books. I am, as my son tells me, addicted to books. :) ... but now i consciously make an effort to experience life, in the flesh! I think it's made a difference... Oh, i still read a lot ... (haven't read much fiction in the last 10 years though. :) ... but i am learning (ohhh, so slow! :) to APPLY what i have 'learned'... that's the REAL learning, i think. I still say that we can be very REAL here though... even if we do seem far removed from one another... maybe it's not the same as physical closeness... but, i /feel/ REAL from you guys! I see such Beauty here! God, this place is Beautiful! >On the other hand, the moments I spend with The Dervish, are burned into my >memory forever. His words, his actions, the grass flowing behind him, the >smells and sounds, the ecstasy I feel when he glances my direction, all are >present to me as I write this message. He doesn't recite Quran, He lives Wow! I can't even begin to imagine... Thank you, thank you Muhsin... for sharing this. >Even in the best of books, the author is visible. >In the best of teachers, not much is visible. >Transparent - and one can see The Eternal. >Reflective - and one can see one's own self, and learn about the self, > and learn about The One and The All...Ahhh! <> <> Thank you, teacher. >Ya Allah, quide us to the experience of Oneness. Amin. aloha, :) carol ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #56 ****************************