From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Mon Jul 29 21:09:36 1996 Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 14:23:54 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #86 tariqas-digest Sunday, 28 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 086 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James McCaig Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 18:48:58 -0400 Subject: Re: the Shaykh (fwd) At 12:03 AM 7/26/96 -0400, Lilyan wrote: > > >James, if you are attributing this statement to me you should not be >because I didn't say this. > It was my intent to say that we ALL have divinity within us. Your Sheikh is great and God bless him or her. My own treacher explains he has nothing to teach, but may help discover something that we already have and know. I don't claim to be God, like our brother, only part of it. As the drop is not the ocean, but you see the connection. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net ------------------------------ From: Martin Schell Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 07:55:40 +0700 Subject: Re: Ali Haydar A public message from Michael Moore the Sword to Ali Haydar: > I may not be understanding you correctly. But if you are God >then what is left for you to do? - --What is left to do is to awaken others. The "theatrical" or "tongue-in-cheek" method of playing the role of the Only One has served a valuable function in certain interactions in this discussion group, as I perceive it. One thing that happens is that the "I am God" gives us a new perspective on certain dualities that have been expressed herein. It is a different perspective from the gushy "hey, don't fight, let's have fun" approach of other types of peace-makers. Another function is that it "pushes the button" of certain dogmatic beliefs so that these beliefs become fiery enough to feel and enter our awareness for a defensive response. We then get an opportunity to self-observe our defensiveness and dogma. >to seek the treasure, not to find the treasure. >The path is the goal. - --This is nonsense. If it were true, we would have no people whom we recognize as saints, leaders, or enlightened ones. The path is NOT endless. >But maybe I have not understood. - --I'll say. > >Best wishes, >-Michael- > - --Ali's best wish is for you to recognize that you, too, are God. (or PART of God, to be more theologically harmonious about it.) Martin ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 19:33:57 PST Subject: Re: Ali Haydar Beloved Martin! >--What is left to do is to awaken others. The "theatrical" or >"tongue-in-cheek" method of playing the role of the Only One >has served a valuable function in certain interactions in >this discussion group, as I perceive it. One thing that happens >is that the "I am God" gives us a new perspective on certain >dualities that have been expressed herein. It is a different >perspective from the gushy "hey, don't fight, let's have fun" >approach of other types of peace-makers. Another function is >that it "pushes the button" of certain dogmatic beliefs so >that these beliefs become fiery enough to feel and enter our >awareness for a defensive response. We then get an opportunity >to self-observe our defensiveness and dogma. Wow! You've sure got God figured out! ;) (now if you can explain Tanzen to me, i'll be halfway HOME! :) >>to seek the treasure, not to find the treasure. >>The path is the goal. > >--This is nonsense. If it were true, we would have no people >whom we recognize as saints, leaders, or enlightened ones. >The path is NOT endless. Is there an 'end' to Perfection? Is the Infinite, finite? >>But maybe I have not understood. > >--I'll say. Sometimes understanding comes in different forms. Can i 'understand' a rainbow... or a field of daisies? Can i understand the whisper of the wind... or the embrace of a child? We sometimes /see/ what we want to /see/.... and /understand/ what we want to /understand/ .... With me, <--Ali's best wish is for you to recognize that you, too, are God. >(or PART of God, to be more theologically harmonious about it.) We are the leaves of One tree... but Huuu is the Wind? :) love ya! carol ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 18:26:33 +0100 Subject: [none] Dear Ali, I believe you. You are God. What is the big fus. Hope no one tries to crucify you. Love Kaffea Lalla. ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 11:26:26 +0800 Subject: Qibla and Kaaba (Re: Ali haydar) > >>to seek the treasure, not to find the treasure. >>The path is the goal. > >--This is nonsense. If it were true, we would have no people >whom we recognize as saints, leaders, or enlightened ones. >The path is NOT endless. > Lets's look at the question from another angle. If someone said: "The is the true direction of Kaaba!" then I want to know how he came to that conclusion. In this case the direction or the path is important, because that direction is the right path to Kaaba. When someone said: "I am the Kaaba", "You are the Kaaba", "Everyone is the Kaaba". I will say: "Hey I'm confused!" and "You are crazy!" This is not so "nonsense" as it seemed! salam maarof ------------------------------ From: Maqam1@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 00:32:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Shakyh in India In a message dated 96-07-27 11:18:49 EDT, you write: >Can you provide more details about this Shaykh in India? His name, >background etc. Salaam Maroof, I don't have that information right at this time but can have but for you this week Insha-Allah. Your Brother Sh. J-Kenyatta ------------------------------ From: Michael Moore (by way of Thomas McElwain ) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 08:28:02 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: Ali Haydar Greetings, I may not be understanding you correctly. But if you are God then what is left for you to do? You have found the treasure and the treasure is you. So, there is no reason for you to continue on this plane. It seems to me that Allah has created us to seek the treasure, not to find the treasure. The path is the goal. If you are God, then you are of no use to yourself. But maybe I have not understood. Best wishes, - -Michael- Dear Michael: Assalaamu Alaykum Rahmatullaahi Perhaps there is not understanding here, but there is something better: the love of al-Haqq. With that, who needs to understand? Stay on the path, follow the Shari'a. I did not say, you are God, I said I am God. The word is I, not you. There is no hostility, no half-given love. It is not you who are the treasure, read I. God is on every plane, Allah Most Gracious Ever Merciful the One without change and without need, all-perceiving, the Living, the Creator of speech, to whom nothing can be added nor taken away, who is without parts and without partiality, the infinite in Justice, praised be. Allah is not to be used but creates all things. La ilaaha illallaah! Allahu Akbar! ma'a salaamati, Ali Haydar ------------------------------ From: "Erik S. Ohlander" Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 01:07:38 Subject: Qawwali As salamu 'alaykum- Has any one out there ever seen the qawwal Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan perform; or know something about him? I just bought a cache of his Pakistani and Brittish recordings, and have very much fallen in love with his unique brand of Qawwali music. If anyone cares to share some info..... Erik. ------------------------------ From: Martin Schell Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 16:01:12 +0700 Subject: Re: The Will of Allah Gravity is the will of God. Airplanes, that use aerodynamic laws (also the will of God), can be constructed by human minds and hands (also the will of God) to "defy" that gravity. Can we go further with this discussion? I am curious, too... martin on the tarmac ------------------------------ From: Thomas McElwain Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 11:01:31 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: Maarof's Kaaba Assalaamu Alaykum Rahmatullaahi wa Barakaatuhu! My name appears on your reference line, and courtesy demands that I respond, although your questions should really be answered by your murshid, not by a dog with fleas on its rump. If you are going on pilgrimage, you will first go to the mosque and make the niyat or intention of going on pilgrimage. From then on, you are on pilgrimage. It includes many phases. You fill out papers and get the visa. You buy tickets. You travel to Mecca. Now is it not true that at any point during this process, if you should die, you have the reward of having completed the pilgrimage? Perhaps I am wrong, I do not know the verdicts of every madhhab. But if that is so, is not the Kaaba there where you are? What if you die on the toilet, estaghfirullaah? Let us go to a simpler matter. Let us say you are reciting: "Qul, huwa Allaho ahad." Is Allah one among many? No. Does Allah have a surface, so that what is within the boundary of that surface is Allah, and what is outside it not Allah? No, Allah has no limits. If Allah has no limits, there is nothing outside Allah. Where are you? If you are outside Allah, you do not exist. If you are inside Allah, are you a part of Allah? No, Allah has no parts. An inspired Arab before the time of the Prophet (ASWS) said, "Canst thou by searching find out God?" Ma'a salaamati, my treasure, Ali Haydar ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) (by way of Thomas McElwain ) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 11:18:47 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: [none] Dear Ali, I believe you. You are God. What is the big fus. Hope no one tries to crucify you. Love Kaffea Lalla. Ya Kaffea Lalla, Assalaamu Alaykum! Et tu, Brute! Love of my soul and flame of my heart! Read I, not you! Say: I believe I am God. I am God. What is the big fuss. Hope no one tries to crucify me. Love to Kaffea Lalla and Amy from Ali Haydar Big secret! Don't tell anyone! Ali Haydar is no more God than you are. I am God. ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 16:56:50 +0800 Subject: re: modest clothing dear martin and friends in tariqas, I enjoyed reading your observations. Your questions are also interesting. I'm not sure what are the right answers. Even among Muslim scholars, there are difference opinions. I think the majority consider that it is decent for men/women to cover their head when in public. I watch a tv documentary about an English woman riding camel in Morroccan desert, and she looked comfortable covering her face and body. I also watch a documentary about men and women trekking the polar region, and I don't see any problem with them wrapped their head and bodies in thick clothes. What the Quran said about clothing: (Pickthall's translations) Surah 7 verse 26: O Children of Adam! We have revealed unto you raiment to conceal your shame, and splendid vesture, but the raiment of restraint from evil, that is best. This is of the revealations of Allah, that they may remember. Surah 16 verse 81: And Alah hath given you, of that which hath created shelter from the sun, and places of refuge in the mountains, and hath given you coats to ward off the heat from you, and coats (of armour) to save from your own foolhardiness. Thus doth He perfect His favour unto you, in order that ye may surender (nto Him). About clothing in hot and humid tropical climate such as in s-e-asia, my views are the muslim scholars, especially from this region, need to re-interpret the Quranic verses and the Sunnah of the Prophet to suit their conditions. A story to end this post: The national mosque in Kuala Lumpur is open to tourists. And most of the time, except during Friday prayer, one can see a group of tourists, enjoying the the relax and peaceful atmosphere of a big mosque. One thing i find about these tourists, when they first entered the mosque compound, they looked scared (maybe they are thinking about the "fanatical" muslims going to attack them any time). The tourist women obediently wear the black cloaks provided to visitors (like the one worn by Little Red Riding Hood). After a while, I saw these tourists relaxed a bit, and I never fail to see the tourist women dressed in hijab, smiling take a photograph of themselves, against a backdrop of Muslims praying. "Lakum dinukum wa liyadin" (Quran 109:6) (Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion) salam maarof ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 17:18:37 +0800 Subject: Flying On Sun, 28 Jul 1996, Martin Schell wrote: >Gravity is the will of God. > >Airplanes, that use aerodynamic laws (also the will of God), >can be constructed by human minds and hands (also the will of God) >to "defy" that gravity. > >Can we go further with this discussion? I am curious, too... > >martin on the tarmac > Gravity is a wonderful creation of God. The birds and insects can fly. Humans fly but has to use machine (airplanes, rockets). Sufis fly differently (using knowledge to curve space and be at at another different place in an instant) in other words If you can DREAM, you can fly my brother! salam maarof ------------------------------ From: Craig Johannsen Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 01:54:09 -0500 Subject: Where to find God A drunkard stopped me on Hastings Street yesterday and said: "If you want to know where ta find God, I can tell ya. But it'll cost ya fifty cents." Naturally, this was exactly what I wanted to know, so I gave him the money and said "Where can I find him?" His reply was: "Get on the Red Line at Universitetet, ride five minutes in the direction of Karsta, and get off at Frescati." ;-) ------------------------------ From: barzakh@idola.net.id Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 17:30:17 +0700 Subject: The Path (Was Re: Ali Haydar) Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. Assalamu'alaykum, Michael Moore wrote: >>> >>>to seek the treasure, not to find the treasure. >>>The path is the goal. >> Martin gave his comment: >> >>--This is nonsense. If it were true, we would have no people >>whom we recognize as saints, leaders, or enlightened ones. >>The path is NOT endless. > Carol asked a question: > >Is there an 'end' to Perfection? Is the Infinite, finite? > And Michael Roland try to answer: In my humble opinion, NO. The Path to God is endless. God is Limitless. The prophets and great saints in their life had only reached a point-of-limit in the Path where humans are allowed to reach. After our death we'll still continue our Journey to God. And brother Martin was right, the Path to The Truth is not The Truth itself. If The Path is The Truth, then there's no need to continue the Journey. Our beloved RUMI said: Originally, you were clay. From being mineral, you became vegetable. From vegetable, you became animal, and from animal, man. During these periods man did not know where he was going. But he was being taken on a long journey nonetheless. And you have to go through a hundred different worlds yet. Wassalamu'alaykum, with love from your human brother, Michael Roland ------------------------------ From: Thomas McElwain Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 14:28:28 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: re: where to find God Dear Craig, I am a docent at an institution of the University of Stockholm located in Frescati! Am I being set up with that story of a drunk? Ali Haydar ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 22:01:58 +0800 Subject: Kaaba, Unity >Assalaamu Alaykum Rahmatullaahi wa Barakaatuhu! Walaikum salam > My name appears on your reference line, and courtesy demands that I >respond, although your questions should really be answered by your murshid, >not by a dog with fleas on its rump. If the truth comes from the mouth of a dog, I have to accept it. It does not matter who speaks the truth. > If you are going on pilgrimage, you will first go to the mosque and >make the niyat or intention of going on pilgrimage. From then on, you are on >pilgrimage. It includes many phases. You fill out papers and get the visa. >You buy tickets. You travel to Mecca. Now is it not true that at any point >during this process, if you should die, you have the reward of having >completed the pilgrimage? The sunni madhabs probably agreed on this. But the madhabs cannot see thru the heart, but Allah does. Perhaps I am wrong, I do not know the verdicts of >every madhhab. But if that is so, is not the Kaaba there where you are? What >if you die on the toilet, estaghfirullaah? Kaaba a.k.a Baitullah (House of Allah). The physical Kaaba is a stone building in Mecca. It is the focal point for direction for prayer or Qibla. It is also the place where pilgrims go to submit to the Will of The Beloved. If one should die during the journey to the Beloved, does Kaaba matters anymore, or the toilets of this world, gold plated or not. Rumi said, death is the reunion with the Beloved. What more can one ask? > Let us go to a simpler matter. Let us say you are reciting: "Qul, >huwa Allaho ahad." Is Allah one among many? No. Does Allah have a surface, >so that what is within the boundary of that surface is Allah, and what is >outside it not Allah? No, Allah has no limits. If Allah has no limits, there >is nothing outside Allah. Where are you? If you are outside Allah, you do >not exist. If you are inside Allah, are you a part of Allah? No, Allah has >no parts. An inspired Arab before the time of the Prophet (ASWS) said, >"Canst thou by searching find out God?" I admit I don't know the answer. What I have are hints from the Quran: If we are sincere in our search, The Beloved will guide us. Maybe, our discussions in this list is part of that. >Ma'a salaamati, my treasure, >Ali Haydar > Thanks for the discussions salam maarof ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 08:15:51 +0100 Subject: YOU a poem The prayer rug was his heart. He layed it down in the direction of YOU. He put his head down, under the heart. He said lay down self and die a simple quiet death, and awaken to east, north, south, west, all the directions Of You and then directions ceased to be, just as time was not, and space was centered in this IS. He had no beads in his fingers, he had only the fresh delicious air to curl around and around like rainbows of YOUR HAIR, God circled thee and thee circled God and then their was just ONE BLOOD circling, and centering, and being. He had no church, no leaders, or followers, masters or unmasters. He heard the earth talk of mysteries, and weavers of mysteries, and the sky unfolded light upon light, and it was a music talking in the chambers and cavities of deep calling to deep; You, they intellectualize, and therorize, and scripturalize. But YOU are the sparkle laughing...touching...healing...being. When I am asleep, you put the pillow under my head, and kiss my cheek. They are pointing to books that point to you. I saw YOU in some star lavender flowers which I picked yesterday. They shriveled up today. But your perfume was released into tommorrow. But today is always YOU. Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: "Morteza elmolhoda" Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 19:06:30 EET Subject: Re: Naqshis and shaykhs Greetings Assalaamu Alaikum va rahmatullah Many thanks for the information you sent on the Naqshis. Morteza Elmolhoda__________________________________________ Morteza Elmolhoda elmolhoda@elo.helsinki.fi ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 09:18:30 +0100 Subject: Re: You a poem I wish to appologize for this last poem. It is important to many the direction of the prayer rug, and after thinking about this I realize that this is not honoring the beliefs of millions of muslims. This is not in the spirit of true Unity and Peace, coexisting together in harmony. Please forgive me. Kaffea lalla ------------------------------ From: Michael Moore Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 11:25:29 -0700 Subject: This is nonsense. Martin Schell wrote: > > >to seek the treasure, not to find the treasure. > >The path is the goal. > > --This is nonsense. If it were true, we would have no people > whom we recognize as saints, leaders, or enlightened ones. > The path is NOT endless. And yet we pray 'guide us on the path most straight' and not 'drop the treasure in our laps'. It seems that our goal is to be rightly guided, on the path, towards the treasure. Inshallah we will/have never receive/d his treasure so that we can eternally praise him. The concept of endless is destroyed in the relm of the eternal where all possible realities simultaneously recure. > > >But maybe I have not understood. > > --I'll say. > > > > >Best wishes, > >-Michael- > > > > --Ali's best wish is for you to recognize that you, too, are God. > (or PART of God, to be more theologically harmonious about it.) > > Martin And my wish for you is to be guided on the path most straight. - -Michael Moore- ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #86 ****************************