From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Mon Jul 29 21:09:51 1996 Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 16:02:01 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #87 tariqas-digest Monday, 29 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 087 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 13:41:35 PST Subject: Re: YOU a poem Was that you calling to me last eve in the dream time? I thought i heard your whispers like the opening of ten thousand butterfly wings ... unfolding in One Moment, forever One Song ------------------------------ From: Michael Moore Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:00:16 -0700 Subject: Re: modest clothing maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: > > What the Quran said about clothing: (Pickthall's translations) > > Surah 7 verse 26: O Children of Adam! We have revealed unto you raiment to > conceal your shame, and splendid vesture, but the raiment of restraint > from evil, that is best. This is of the revealations of Allah, that > they may remember. > How interesting that some have taken 'your shame' to mean some parts of the body! Allah created my body and I am not shamed by any of it. I really have to question either Pickthall's translation or this (IMO rather base) interpretation. - -Michael Moore- ------------------------------ From: Craig Johannsen Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:14:40 -0500 Subject: Re: where to find God Thomas McElwain wrote: > > Dear Craig, > I am a docent at an institution of the University of Stockholm > located in Frescati! Am I being set up with that story of a drunk? > Ali Haydar Dear Brother Ali, This was perhaps a bad attempt at humour. I thought it was consistent with your claim to be God, which, in fact, I do not dispute nor oppose. It was also meant to be a kind of "inside joke", since very few people would have any idea where Karsta or Frescati were. I also thought it had something of the flavour of a Mulla Nasrudin story, with multiple levels of significance and, possibly, educational value to others. I think your postings have been valuable to all of us. I hope you don't mind being the pseudo-subject of such a joke. The real subject is God. If you laughed at it or chuckled even a little, I would be very pleased. If you were alarmed or angered by it, I'm very sorry and apologize profusely. If you prefer to keep your location confidential, I will not further expose it. If I "set you up", it was in the Oliver and Hardy sense of one comedian preparing the stage for another. - -- Best regards, love, and genuine respect, Craig PS: One who claims to be God must expect to take a little flhaq. ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 14:15:40 +0100 Subject: Re: YOU a poem Was that you calling to me last eve in the dream time? I thought i heard your whispers like the opening of ten thousand butterfly wings ... unfolding in One Moment, forever One Song - ------- Woodsong sang through the shadow of distance it entered by the heart through the ten thousand petals of meadow flowers unfolding in One hand, One Moment, forever Our God...KL ------------------------------ From: gmtn@mail.comet.net (Green Mountain School) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 23:04:23 -0500 Subject: Re: You a poem >I wish to appologize for this last poem. It is important to many the >direction of the prayer rug, and after thinking about this I realize that >this is not honoring the beliefs of millions of muslims. This is not in the >spirit of true Unity and Peace, coexisting together in harmony. Please >forgive me. Kaffea lalla try a billion A. N. Durkee Green Mountain ------------------------------ From: "M.I.S. DEPT" Date: Sun, 28 JUL 96 21:03:32 Subject: Re: Olympics Assalamualaimum, Shaitan met Allah to say how dissappointed he was that Allah had created The Quran and his Messengers to guide people to the righteous path. Allah revealed to him one weakness of man which Iblis could exploit. Iblis asked Allah what that weakness his. Allah said , "woman". So let us not be hoodwinked by the so-called natural beauty lest we be trapped by Iblis into his path through our weak point. Regards, Noordin ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 21:52:16 +0100 Subject: Re: Olympics Assalamualaimum, Shaitan met Allah to say how dissappointed he was that Allah had created The Quran and his Messengers to guide people to the righteous path. Allah revealed to him one weakness of man which Iblis could exploit. Iblis asked Allah what that weakness his. Allah said , "woman". So let us not be hoodwinked by the so-called natural beauty lest we be trapped by Iblis into his path through our weak point. Regards, Noordin - -----Hmmm, the weaker so-called natural beauty gives birth to children, changes the diapers that many of you stronger men gag over, gave you milk, burped you, taught you manners hopefully, maybe how to read and write. Oh well and I remember when Mohammed asked his wife if to paraphrase it, heard what he heard, and his wife said of course, don't doubt it, you are a prophet. Oh well so much for woman. Generally they are blamed for men's problems. Woman can be the blamers also...so where does it end. God make me responsible for my own problems and stop thinking I'm a victim like most people say on talk shows. Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 00:32:52 PST Subject: Re: Olympics Hey, Beautiful people! :)(: >Assalamualaimum, > >Shaitan met Allah to say how dissappointed he was that Allah had >created >The Quran and his Messengers to guide people to the righteous path. >Allah >revealed to him one weakness of man which Iblis could exploit. Iblis >asked Allah what that weakness his. Allah said , "woman". So let us >not >be hoodwinked by the so-called natural beauty lest we be trapped by >Iblis >into his path through our weak point. > >Regards, >Noordin > >-----Hmmm, the weaker so-called natural beauty gives birth to >children, [...] >well and I remember when Mohammed asked his wife if to paraphrase it, >heard >what he heard, and his wife said of course, don't doubt it, you are a >prophet. Oh well so much for woman. Generally they are blamed for >men's >problems. Woman can be the blamers also...so where does it end. God >make me >responsible for my own problems and stop thinking I'm a victim like >most >people say on talk shows. >Kaffea Lalla My take. No one asked, i know! :) Woman is MAN'S weakness. I think that's what Noordin was saying? Sister, Kaffea, it is not you and i who have this problem... it is the men who look at woman in the way the first man who looked at White Buffalo Calf Woman did. And /we/ know /his/ fate! ;) We, dear sister, KNOW we are the strong ones. < Date: Sun, 28 JUL 96 22:40:05 Subject: Re: Olympics Salam kaffea, I am not implying that woman should be blamed for men's problems. But the story should serve as caveats for those men who give excuses in woman watching as enjoying Allah's natural beauty. There are man and there are men. There are numerous creations of Allah which we can truly delight upon watching...the earth , the moon , the trees, the mountains, the lakes, the waterfalls, the skies at sunset and at sunrise, the seas , the stars , the planets etc..etc. The more you watch and gaze them the more you feel awed by Allah's greatness and the more you think of how timid and powerless creature you are. But I cannot say the same results if a man watch and stare the beauty of woman. This is the essence of the whole story. Regards, Noordin \ ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 06:47:24 -0700 Subject: RUMI 1419 I WAS READY TO TELL the story of my life but the ripple of tears and the agony of my heart wouldn't let me i began to stutter saying a word here and there and all along i felt as tender as a crystal ready to be shattered in this stormy sea we call life all the big ships come apart board by board how can i survive riding a lonely little boat with no oars and no arms my boat did finally break by the waves and i broke free as i tied myself to a single board though the panic is gone i am now offended why should i be so helpless rising with one wave and falling with the next i don't know if i am nonexistence while i exist but i know for sure when i am i am not but when i am not then i am now how can i be a skeptic about the resurrection and coming to life again since in this world i have many times like my own imagination died and been born again that is why after a long agonizing life as a hunter i finally let go and got hunted down and became free ghazal number 1419, translated April 17, 1991, by Nader Khalili tanzen ------------------------------ From: Hafizullah@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:56:06 -0400 Subject: Re: Rumi picture In a message dated 96-07-27 14:49:54 EDT, you write: << But I think his picture is not too important. (All pictures of Rumi are only artists' imagination) >> Au contraire. At least two portraits of Mevlana were painted of him during his lifetime, and these have survived. ------------------------------ From: Martin Schell Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 21:53:09 +0700 Subject: humor Dear Tariqas: I also posted the chess-playing dog joke in a discussion group for Princeton University alumni that I founded and still host. One woman, who graduated a few years ago, came up with the only interesting commentary that I have seen so far. I'm sharing it, with some remarks: "The Chess-Playing Dog" Ms. Wittke has not only explained the aspect that I first experienced as a child hearing this joke, AND the Thai student's perception, but also a THIRD viewpoint! She writes: >Or perhaps, one just realizes what an idiot the man is, first to be >beaten by a dog, and second not to appreciate the implications! My comment: 1. "The man is stupid because he was actually beaten once by a dog" was the perception of my friends and I as kids growing up on Long Island, in the shadow of cynical New York. 2. "The man is foolish because a miracle is occurring in front of his eyes (the dog playing chess) and all he thinks about is keeping score" was the perception of one of my Thai students. I had presented this joke as an exam question, and gave the student full credit for her answer because she opened my eyes. Now Ms. Wittke presents a third viewpoint: >It's the fact that the man doesn't even think of the dog as a dog that's >so funny to me--he gives exactly the kind of response one would expect if >he were talking about a person, but it's so obviously out of whack. Additional note, and why this topic might be useful: Previous to the Thai exam, I had read in a book by Idries Shah that westerners tend to perceive jokes as an opportunity to laugh at someone else's foolishness, while easterners tend to recognize their own foolish behavior and feel like they are laughing at themselves. (See pages 191-3 of LEARNING HOW TO LEARN, which is not the exact reference I had in mind, but comes close.) Those of us who have spent extensive time in southeast Asia can testify to the frequent use of laughter in situations that would infuriate a westerner. For example, I stumble on some steps, and a person laughs. They are not laughing AT me, but trying to give me a perpspective that life's errors can be funny -- "I do it, too. Let me help you remember that we all do silly things like this." -- a supportive use of laughter. Best Wishes, martin God Is Eternal, Is In All Of US, Is In Everything, Is One Without Second ------------------------------ From: Salikun@vnet.net Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 10:20:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Woman Assalaamu alaikum Sisters & Brothers, >Iblis asked Allah what that weakness his. Allah said , "woman". Just one short comment and then a little personal history: Note that Allah is commenting on Man's weakness. The topic of this sentence is me and my gender, not females. And for me, I accept full responsibility for my thoughts, intentions, and actions. I choose to sin. I choose to love or lust, to fellowship or possess. If Allah, uses a woman, to teach me about "my weakness" then, Al-hamdullilah! Praise Allah and Allah's servant, woman. [Please excuse the following personal disclosures - I am not able to talk about love or women without talking about the love and woman I know.] Janan, my lover, partner, friend, wife... Has taught me more about Love and Heart than any book or teacher. Some say she is "My" wife, I would say, she is my Shaikha - A living book of love. I search, travel many roads, seek faraway teachers, to learn about Truth, Love, Allah. Her knowledge of these things arises from within. I look at externals to teach me about reality. Janan, learns about internals from the source. Do you want to know Love? Watch Janan care for our son - Kamil. She doesn't attempt to love, strive to love. She Loves. To be loved by her, to love her, is to learn love. Love has taught me about itself thru our relationship. She has taught me, Allah has used Janan as a servant to teach me, much more than any Sufi Master about - Love, Lust, Feeling, Joy, Sorrow, Committment, Partnership, Discipline, Dedication, Service: All matters of Heart. Janan, gave me life. Before her love, I was one of those "weak" males Allah referred to above. I lusted, desired, wanted to possess others. She accepted me, unconditionaly loved me, in my weakened state. I am learning, day after day, to love her with such purity. Why does love, for me, seem to take effort, when for her, it seems, a part of her nature? She is Love. No more desire, no more lust - Union is what I seek. To be united, with Janan - Paradise! While I "intellectualize, theroize, scripturalize," about You: Love seeps thru the actions of Janan, Truth seeps thru the words of Kaffea Lalla's Poetry. To lust women is man's weakness. To know a woman is to know Love. Ya Allah! Thank you for your blessings of love. Muhsin ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 07:50:15 -0700 Subject: Re: modest clothing Michael Moore wrote: > > maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: > > > > What the Quran said about clothing: (Pickthall's translations) > > > > Surah 7 verse 26: O Children of Adam! We have revealed unto you raiment to > > conceal your shame, and splendid vesture, but the raiment of restraint > > from evil, that is best. This is of the revealations of Allah, that > > they may remember. > > > How interesting that some have taken 'your shame' to mean some parts of the > body! Allah created my body and I am not shamed by any of it. I really have > to question either Pickthall's translation or this (IMO rather base) > interpretation. > -Michael Moore- A misleading translation, IMO. Ahmed Ali has it: 7:26 O sons of Adam, We have revealed to you a dress that would both hide your nakedness and be an adornment, but the raiment of piety is best. This is one of the tokens of God: You may haply reflect. love, harmony, and beauty, down silver threads of gold, tanzen ------------------------------ From: "Earl Yunus Torrey" Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 08:14:36 +0000 Subject: Re: Woman > Assalaamu alaikum Sisters & Brothers, > > >Iblis asked Allah what that weakness his. Allah said , "woman". > > Just one short comment and then a little personal history: > > Note that Allah is commenting on Man's weakness. The topic of this > sentence is me and my gender, not females. And for me, I accept > full responsibility for my thoughts, intentions, and actions. I > choose to sin. I choose to love or lust, to fellowship or possess. > If Allah, uses a woman, to teach me about "my weakness" then, > Al-hamdullilah! Praise Allah and Allah's servant, woman. > > [Please excuse the following personal disclosures - I am not able to > talk about love or women without talking about the love and woman I > know.] > > Janan, my lover, partner, friend, wife... Has taught me more about > Love and Heart than any book or teacher. Some say she is "My" wife, > I would say, she is my Shaikha - A living book of love. > > I search, travel many roads, seek faraway teachers, to learn about > Truth, Love, Allah. Her knowledge of these things arises from > within. I look at externals to teach me about reality. Janan, > learns about internals from the source. > > Do you want to know Love? Watch Janan care for our son - Kamil. > She doesn't attempt to love, strive to love. She Loves. > > To be loved by her, to love her, is to learn love. Love has taught > me about itself thru our relationship. She has taught me, Allah has > used Janan as a servant to teach me, much more than any Sufi Master > about - Love, Lust, Feeling, Joy, Sorrow, Committment, Partnership, > Discipline, Dedication, Service: All matters of Heart. > > Janan, gave me life. Before her love, I was one of those "weak" > males Allah referred to above. I lusted, desired, wanted to possess > others. She accepted me, unconditionaly loved me, in my weakened > state. I am learning, day after day, to love her with such purity. > Why does love, for me, seem to take effort, when for her, it seems, > a part of her nature? She is Love. > > No more desire, no more lust - Union is what I seek. > To be united, with Janan - Paradise! > > While I "intellectualize, theroize, scripturalize," about You: > Love seeps thru the actions of Janan, > Truth seeps thru the words of Kaffea Lalla's Poetry. > > To lust women is man's weakness. > To know a woman is to know Love. > > Ya Allah! Thank you for your blessings of love. > > Muhsin > Very often I feel often embarrassed at attitudes of myself and my brothers on this path in regards to women:; I would like to thank you for displaying what I feel is most needed in this forum is the abilility to listen with your heart and mind to our sisters. Thank you!!! Blessings' Earl Yunus Torrey ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He first loved us, 1 John 4:10 ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 08:40:42 +0100 Subject: Re: modest clothing 7:26 O sons of Adam, We have revealed to you a dress that would both hide your nakedness and be an adornment, but the raiment of piety is best. This is one of the tokens of God: You may haply reflect. love, harmony, and beauty, down silver threads of gold, tanzen - ---------- The definition of piety from the Random House College dictionary: 1. reverance for God or devout fulfillment of religious obligations. 2. the quality or fact of being pious. 3. dutiful respect or regard for parents, homeland, etc. syn. respect, veneration, awe. 2. godliness, devoutness, holiness. Ant. irreverence. ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:28:10 -0700 Subject: Re: Woman Salikun@vnet.net wrote: > Janan, my lover, partner, friend, wife... Has taught me more about Love and > Heart than any book or teacher. [...] > To lust women is man's weakness. > To know a woman is to know Love. > > Ya Allah! Thank you for your blessings of love. Muhsin, change "Janan" to "Betty" and you have my story for the last 40 years. Thanks for the details! To know Betty is to know love, tanzen ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 09:38:08 -0700 Subject: Re: Ali Haydar Carol Woodsong wrote: > > Beloved Martin! > > >--What is left to do is to awaken others. The "theatrical" or > >"tongue-in-cheek" method of playing the role of the Only One > >has served a valuable function in certain interactions in > >this discussion group, as I perceive it. One thing that happens > >is that the "I am God" gives us a new perspective on certain > >dualities that have been expressed herein. It is a different > >perspective from the gushy "hey, don't fight, let's have fun" > >approach of other types of peace-makers. Another function is > >that it "pushes the button" of certain dogmatic beliefs so > >that these beliefs become fiery enough to feel and enter our > >awareness for a defensive response. We then get an opportunity > >to self-observe our defensiveness and dogma. > > Wow! You've sure got God figured out! ;) (now if you can explain Tanzen > to me, i'll be halfway HOME! :) Not so difficult... tanzen is a man trying to find God; "I AM is God", trying to find humanity. Love, harmony, and beauty, from subatomic particle to galaxy, tanzen ------------------------------ From: Craig Johannsen Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 10:50:40 -0700 Subject: Apology A private message to Ali Haydar was accidentally posted to this group. Please disregard its contents. My deepest apologies to Brother Ali. It is very presumptuous of me to think that I have a gift for teaching or that I even have anything to teach. I shall now go out into the desert and transform myself into a grain of sand. If a dog pees on me, I will consider it an elevation of my status. ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 14:55:33 PST Subject: Kahlil Gibran >From /The Prophet/: And the weaver said, Speak to us of Clothes. And he answered: Your clothes conceal much of your beauty, yet they hide not the unbeautiful. And though you seek in garments the freedom of privacy you may find in them a harness and chain. Would that you could meet the sun and the wind with more of your skin and less of your raiment, For the breath of life is in sunlight and the hand of life is in the wind. Some of you say, "It is the north wind who has woven the clothes we wear." And I say, Ay, it was the north wind, But shame was his loom, and the softening of the sinews was his thread. And when his work was done he laughed in the forest. Forget not that modesty is for a shield against the eye of the unclean. And when the unclean shall be no more, what were modesty but a fetter and fouling of the mind? And forget not that the earth delights to feel your bare feet and the winds long to play with your hair. - --Kahlil Gibran ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #87 ****************************