From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Mon Sep 2 08:16:36 1996 Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 02:29:40 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #116 tariqas-digest Sunday, 1 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 116 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 23:15:54 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Atheism/Existence of God Salam.My friends are searching for a living Wali by the name of Syed Ali Ahmad Jaffar Al Edros .He is supposedly living in Johore. I knew one Habib Zain who was crazy about Maulidin Nabi recitals.He had an uncanny power over large pythons.He was able to see the jinn howering around people.When I was disappointed that he could see my personal jinn he said that everyone had one to tempt one just as everyone has his own personal guardian angels.No big deal to him .there is a whole matrix of influences acting upon a human being, whether it is angelic, asma-ic, jinn-ic, cosmic, nutritional, ecological , environmental, from one's lataif-e-sitta, genes, DNA, etc etc and yet one has moral freedom.Astrology only skims the surface and most inaccurately because of the planetary shifts over time. Or one can write to Haji Mohd bin Yaacob 27 Jalan Pelasih 10 Taman Kemas, TAMPOI Johor Bahru Malysia Tel: 02-07-2375860 He is a veritable ocean of accurate knowledge on Tasawuf. Fe amaniLLah.Please , everyone pray for my family and children.Salam. At 15:57 8/31/96 +0800, you wrote: > >Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu > >Welcome to Tariqas, br Zainuddin. I enjoyed reading your postings >since they touched on subjects closer to home (Asean region). > >I like to find out more on tasawwuf in Malaysia, the tariqah >and if there's any living wali here. So far, I found my infomation >from reading and limited conversations. > >salam >maarof > >On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, you wrote: >[...] >>In Indonesia there is one such living saint known as Tajul Arifeen .He runs >>a pondok or religious school based on the old educational system of Islam.He >>is Qadiri Naqshbandi and has hundreds or thousands of murids who live in the >>Asean region.His father was also a living saint.Hundreds of hardcore addicts >>have been cured by him. >>There is some information on another found through searching with the word >>"Barzakh" But I dont know his background.In this region there have been >>dozens of such people and their keramah cannot be dismissed by rational >>considerations.Even the wonder workings of those who use familiar spirits >>cannot be dismissed by rational consideration.But there is no fine line >>between the two.It is like comparing darkness to brightness. >[...] > > > ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 08:17:51 -0700 Subject: Re: Atheism/Existence of God Zainuddin Ismail wrote: > EVERYTHING CONNECTS WITH EVERYTHING ELSE IN > ONE DIVINE TAUHIDIC SCHEME. Amin! tanzen ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 08:45:42 -0700 Subject: Re: Ninety Nine Most Beautiful Names Hello, dear Jabriel! So happy to see you back at the computer. > I just got back from the hospital yesterday. Thank you for your prayers > they have assisted me getting through one of the most incredible series of > challenges I have yet faced in my life. The most overwhelming gift has been > that of a re-newed experience of faith. Yes, faith, such a big word... seems our beliefs and experiences determine our faith and what our lives are. > Please let me know if you would like me start sending the one page > prose versions of the names. Is one a day to much or would once a week be a > more intelligent use of people's time on this server. Why not one piece every other day? That is what I do with the RUMI postings. Again, so good to see you back with us, tanzen at lake tahoe california ------------------------------ From: Michael Moore Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 10:22:57 -0700 Subject: Re: Atheism/Existence of God Joshi wrote: > > At 15:21 30/08/96 -0700, you wrote: > >Hi Joshi, > > > Hi Michael:-) > There were I felt some flaws in your arguments, but I do not really > have time to argue them now:-) yes, I did feel you were being a *wee* bit > condesecending but ...it was probably just me:-) > :-) > Imaan > Imaan Shivani Joshi > sci30342@leonis.nus.sg > > Salam! You have been too kind to me. It is so difficult for me to write anything without appearing to be condescending. It seems that to avoid this, I would have to preface every thought with "I'm sure that you already know this but....". Sometimes I make the extra effort but it is difficult and I just know that you would be big enough to forgive me for not being a better writer. Again, you have been to gracious. astagfur-allah Michael ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 10:31:28 +0100 Subject: Ninety Nine Most Beautiful Names Jabriel said: I just got back from the hospital yesterday. Thank you for your prayers they have assisted me getting through one of the most incredible series of challenges I have yet faced in my life. The most overwhelming gift has been that of a re-newed experience of faith. >>> So glad your home my friend. Clip.... You must understand then that I was overjoyed at hearing the level of p[participation regarding the Ninety Nine Most Beautiful Names when I got home from the hospital. >>>>I am overjoyed too and so anticipating the beautiful 99 names translated >>>>poetry, to help us, particularly myself with little background, to under- >>>>stand the deph and beauty of these attributes of Allah, the most special >>>>name of all. Many days were grieved, and my my mind fragmented with pain and depression And my very being was eaten with rotting corpses of past traumas But now I am a love-knot in my Lord's Lovely hand. And there is no fear when one is loved from within... Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: Aaron McEmrys Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:11:05 -0700 Subject: to break ones knees Jabriel Hanafi wrote: > Hi I just got out of the hospitall. All in all I have experienced more > physical pain inb the past five weeks than I have in my entire life. What > thus far is the result. I no longer lust for power, money, women in a way I > did a mere five weeks ago. I am completely out of control all I can turn to > is Allah. Security has taken on new dimension. I view each seemingly > catastrophic challenge as series of happenings which are hard to describe > and yet a gift of extrodinary magnitude. I never thought of Iman as the > bending or breaking of one's knees. The metaphor does not seem very > appealing. But who cares. Besides the times when the pain is of such a > magnitude that I think of checking out the only thing I want with every > fiber of my being is to surrender, is to love, is to recieve, is to forgive > myself and others, is to learn to pray for all of humanity instead of just > myself. The nphrase that Allah works in mysterious ways has now become > quite meaningful. I wish I could be more explicit. I wish I could share > the experience that I am having with my brothers and sisters in a more > meaningful manner. I thank each of you for your prayers. Something > wonderful is happening. Love. Jabriel > Something wonderful indeed! I've never heard the phrase "breaking ones knees" before, but it illustrates my experience beautifully. When I was young things were very bad in my family. Violence, addiction - - the all too common scourges of our world. I grew up protecting myself by simply closing doors against the things I didn't want to see. By the time I was sixteen there were more closed doors than open ones I think. It was as if I were living in a circle of sunlight surrounded by darkness. Of course all these perceptions only became clear years later. Anyway, I was all ready to go to the Air Force Academy (more self-induced brainwashing perhaps...). I was riding my bike one day down a very steep hill. I was going very fast. There was an intersection at the bottom of the hill. I put the breaks on to stop, there was a car coming - but at the last second, I let go of the breaks, went into the intersection and was run over. The car behind the one that hit me had an emergency room doctor in it. He kept me alive. Along with all the other breaks, three vertebrae exploded, leaving me parapelegic. I was unaware of all this. I became aware of myself in a (dimension, reality?) place composed of light, golden and soft. I gradually became aware that I was composed of the same stuff as everything else around me, it was difficult to tell where I ended and everything else began. I felt so at home, so tranquill - as if I had come home after a long journey. After a time, I felt something entering me, thoughtforms, images, feelings pouring in... I understood that I was filling up with something important - my Self. I understood that it was time to go back, that I wasn't done on earth yet. There was a feeling of motion, of swooping downwards - and I felt wind on my face. I opened my eyes and saw the paramedics around me. I lived in the hospital for well over a year. I had plenty of time to try to understand what had happened to me and why. WHY? I believe that I had strayed so far from myself that drastic measures were needed to bring me back to my self. In the same action that my body was shattered, all the false constructs within me shattered as well, leaving me with only the substance that is ME to rebuild with. After about a year my nerves began to regenerate. At that time, regeneration was thought to be impossible. The doctors said it was phantom pain, and would pass. That I should not hope, that I would never walk, have children - so on... My nerves really were regenerating though - the purpose served by trauma was ending, so it was no longer important that I be paralyzed. I am completely healed now. I have a lot of back pain, and a metal plate in place of my real vertebrae. My right leg is still numb from the knee down. I do have a glorious son though. I am more athletic then ever I was before - I am much more ALIVE then ever I was before. I still explore the reasons for my incomplete recovery. A constant reminder, or a milepost I think. Anyway, when it no longer serves a purpose it will fade away. At any rate - that rebirth or awakening I experienced on the road remains clear as other memories fade. It was the touch of divinity. Now it's like a homing device inside me, a light that flicks on when I make the right choices, and fickers or wavers when I am fooling myself or acting wrongly. Of course this is an oversimplification. Text is woefully inadequate. I have been homing in on that essence ever since... My knees have indeed been broken on my journey. It has been almost a decade now, but every day I am more thankful for it! in peace, Aaron McEmrys ------------------------------ From: gberlind@crl.com (Gary Berlind) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 13:08:44 -0800 Subject: pivotal@inxpress.net Salaam Alaykum Jabriel: I've never communicated directly with you before, just observed your ruminations on this tariqas list. But why stand on formalities? I hope you are well, and can put as much of this behind you as you choose to. Your brother, Gary Abdul Matin Berlind (Berkeley, CA) > >Hi I just got out of the hospitall. All in all I have experienced more >physical pain inb the past five weeks than I have in my entire life. What >thus far is the result. I no longer lust for power, money, women in a way I >did a mere five weeks ago. I am completely out of control all I can turn to >is Allah. Security has taken on new dimension. I view each seemingly >catastrophic challenge as series of happenings which are hard to describe >and yet a gift of extrodinary magnitude. I never thought of Iman as the >bending or breaking of one's knees. The metaphor does not seem very >appealing. But who cares. Besides the times when the pain is of such a >magnitude that I think of checking out the only thing I want with every >fiber of my being is to surrender, is to love, is to recieve, is to forgive >myself and others, is to learn to pray for all of humanity instead of just >myself. The nphrase that Allah works in mysterious ways has now become >quite meaningful. I wish I could be more explicit. I wish I could share >the experience that I am having with my brothers and sisters in a more >meaningful manner. I thank each of you for your prayers. Something >wonderful is happening. Love. Jabriel > > >----------------------------------------- > Jabriel Hanafi > Pivotal Point Dynamics > ------------------------------ From: pathway@dnet.net (John Womack) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 23:57:59 -0500 Subject: Sabri Brothers Greetings All. Our local paper tells of the " ... Sabri Brothers, a popular Pakistani musical performance group, will bring its mystical tones of Qawwali, the devotional music of the Sufi sect of Islam, to UNCA ..." on 30 October. I have not heard of them, and I wondered if anyone on the list might like to make a comment concerning them? John. ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 00:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Atheism vs. agnosticism Assalamu alaikum. On Wed, 28 Aug 1996, Craig Johannsen wrote: [snip] > Can a true agnostic ever have sufficient evidence? This one can :-) > > At some point there must be a leap of faith -- ahh now there > is enough evidence. There is only a one in twenty chance > that I am inferring incorrectly that God exists! ;-) > For me, as far as I know, a leap of faith is not necessary. I don't "believe" in God, I have had direct experience of God (or of something which appears to be what other people call God, so I am willing to use the word "God"). Yours, Habib ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 21:55:22 -0700 Subject: RE: Sabri Brothers - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB9787.21EA4140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, they are a wonderful ensemble, devotionally ecstatic, and i'm sure = many would put them on par with Nuzrat Fateh Ali Khan who has been = discussed on Tariqas before. But where and what is UNCA? Blessings, Nur - ---------- From: John Womack[SMTP:pathway@dnet.net] Sent: Saturday, August 31, 1996 9:57 PM To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Sabri Brothers Greetings All. Our local paper tells of the " ... Sabri Brothers, a popular Pakistani musical performance group, will bring its mystical = tones of Qawwali, the devotional music of the Sufi sect of Islam, to UNCA ..." = on 30 October. I have not heard of them, and I wondered if anyone on the = list might like to make a comment concerning them? 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How we forget until a turn comes up from ahead and you are no longer in Kansas. You are a very special angel my friend. I don't mean to sound boring but you always produce the most inspiring feelings in me. Jabriel - ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Pivotal Point Dynamics ------------------------------ From: pivotal@inxpress.net (Jabriel Hanafi) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 23:50:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: to break ones knees Dear Arron, Thanks for your note. I really heard you. What I am afraid of is that after this is over how I might be prudent with the experience. The freedom from detachment is so precious and at the same time I just don't know if it is possible to balance Caesar and Spiritual World. I am seriously thinking of down sizing on my style of living. It takes to much time and leaves little time for the quality which could be enjoyed. Another thing. I have really been doing a celibacy thing over the past six weeks. I mean a for real one no masturbating and not much though about the subject. It is rare when I am not trapped by the whole dominate and or be dominated thing when it comes to sex. All the love has the most difficult time coming through with this sort of paradigm as I am certain you know. I would just like to surrender my life in a way that I am free, just like to live in a way where I can be making a real difference, just like to give it up so I could be the character that I am without caring about what others think. Just like to learn to forgive myself and others who I am not even aware I have not forgiven, just like to learn to authentically pray for us all and liver in a way where the notion of we are all one becomes a vivid reality. Jabriel - ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Pivotal Point Dynamics ------------------------------ From: "Erik S. Ohlander" Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 00:56:55 Subject: RE: Sabri Brothers Brother- I suggest buying the Real World release "Ya Habib" by the Sabri Brothers; it is an excellent album. On another note, could you please let me know where you live (so I may know where the tour is heading) and any information at all on the Sabri Brother's Tour that you have gathered from your local paper (also if anyone else knows, espically of performances in the upper midwest, PLEASE let me know). It would be the fulfillment of a dream to see a Qawwali performance. Thanks and blessings. Erik S. Ohlander University of Minnesota ohla0003@maroon.tc.umn.edu >Greetings All. Our local paper tells of the " ... Sabri Brothers, a >popular Pakistani musical performance group, will bring its mystical tones >of Qawwali, the devotional music of the Sufi sect of Islam, to UNCA ..." on >30 October. I have not heard of them, and I wondered if anyone on the list >might like to make a comment concerning them? John. > > > ------------------------------ From: Joshi Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:53:28 +0800 Subject: Re: Atheism/Existence of God At 10:22 31/08/96 -0700, you wrote: >> There were I felt some flaws in your arguments, but I do not really >> have time to argue them now:-) yes, I did feel you were being a *wee* bit >> condesecending but ...it was probably just me:-) >> :-) >> >Salam! > `` wa 'alaikum salaam wr wb You have been too kind to me. A muslim is supposed to be one from whose hands and tongue others are safe, no?:-) I am not saying I am one yet, but actions *are* based on intention; I am sure your niyat was simply to debate, not to condescend:-) It is so difficult for me to write >anything >without appearing to be condescending. I can relate; I was accused not too long ago by a br of sounding high-and-mighty in my posts [ to another mailing list when really, I jad no intention of it; the matter was clarified alHamdulillah, bec no one else seemed to feel that way:-) Like I said, I am sure at least part of the fault lay with me:_) It seems that to avoid this, I >would have to preface every thought with "I'm sure that you already >know this but....". I try to include myself in the "bad" aspect of things" we really do not do this; why? " I think the realisation in itself is good for the soul, Insh'Allah:-) Sometimes I make the extra effort but it is >difficult >and I just know that you would be big enough to forgive me for not being >a better writer. There is nothing to forgive:-) You said what HE made you say, and I said in return what He made *me* say:-) end of the matter:_) it is good to know a br like you, formerly atheist? >Again, you have been to gracious. Do not say that; I did only what HE willed me to; astaghfirullah al 'aziim. wasalaam. Imaan Shivani Joshi sci30342@leonis.nus.sg He who painted you all by Himself will not leave you alone in your mad desire. [Jalaluddin Rumi] ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 02:29:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Atheism/Existence of God Assalamu alaikum. There are a whole lot of things I don't know. In fact, there is almost nothing that I do know. However, many of the following arguments may be answered from a scientific perspective, and, based upon my limited knowledge of science, I would like to try to respond to a few of them. Many people on both "sides" seem to believe that their perspective is obvious, intuitive etc. From my perspective, both sides have truth to them, as well as certain blinders. It is my perspective currently that God uses mechanisms including chance and evolution to do God's work (as well as mechanisms that go beyond the "natural laws" that we know about). If that is true (I don't know if it is -- remember, I don't know diddly!), then I don't see a contradiction between God creating/running the universe and a "scientific" perspective. On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Joshi wrote: [snip] > Take the topic of the universe; in order for it to be as it is > today, able to sustain life, : > 1. the universe had to be created with the planets...by chance? There are a number of hypotheses about where the universe came from -- the favorite these days is a Big Ban from a "singularity." From a scientific perspective, however, these are simply hypotheses -- guesses which have some evidence to support them. Theoretically, if the evidence contradicts any specific hypothesis, science will discard that hypothesis. Actually, many scientists often cling to their ideas based on their ego needs just the same way as the rest of us humanoids. > 2. the sun had to be created...by chance? Science tends to assume certain factors are already in place and works based on those assumptions. Science doesn't tend to deal with "the first" or "ultimate" cause, and ideally, admits its ignorance of such matters. Soooo, given certain natural laws already in place (once again, science will usually not presume as to what or Who put those laws into place), the creation of suns and solar systems and planets happens in a way that I believe is actually fairly well understood (based on gravitation attraction etc. -- in fact, new telescopes are observing the creation of stars in remote galaxies). > 3. the distance between the sun and the planet we call earth had to be > just RIGHT so as to deliver sufficient light that we would neither roast nor > freeze...by chance? This is not a critical factor for life, just for comfortable life for our particular physiologies as they have happened to evolve. There are plenty of examples of life on this planet that live and even thrive in extremely different climatic conditions (including bacteria that live in volcanoes and far under the earth surface). And, it appears possible that life may have been found on Mars -- if correct, that would seem obvious proof that there is nothing magical about the particular distance. On the other hand, there is almost certainly a range in which life can occur -- I really doubt we'll find it on Mercury or Pluto! > 4. the earth had to rotate 365 days a year...by chance? I'm not sure what this has to do with the point you are making. > 5. it had to spin on its own axis so as to allow us to sleep and wake[ > i.e night and day]...by chance? Once again, the scientist would probably point out that we have evolved to sleep and wake based on night and day since that was our experience as we evolved. There are lots of animals which are very comfortable with other approaches (such as our cats, who sleep whenever they darn well want to!). > 6. it had to have a tilted axis so that again, there would be relative > bearable distribution of light etc over the planet...by chance? > The list goes on. I'm still not sure of the point of this argument. If you live in Alaska, you have a very different experience than if you live at the Equator. Yet, people live in both environments... > > Take the other example of the biology of reproduction. > 1. Among the 4-6 million sperm ejaculated at any one time, only the one > that contributes to the formation of YOU fused with the egg...by chance? A scientist's response to this would probably include a reference to probability theory. Let's imagine there is a card game, and that we have been dealt a certain hand: three fours. We may think that it is "highly unlikely" that any one person would be dealt three fours, and we would be right. However, everybody gets dealt something. Some people have three nines. Other people have two of a kind. Other people don't have any pairs at all. A scientist would probably say that who YOU are is based on a combination of genetics, environment, and chance -- and that you are looking at this situation from a similar perspective to the person who was dealt three fours and says ain't it a miracle I got three fours. This is one of the points at which I want to point out that from my own perspective, God may be at work influencing such factors as which sperm "happens" to be chosen, as well as working with other apparently and truly chance factors. This is something that I don't "know" but I have had enough experiences of God's timing in my life to have evidence that God appears to take an active role in "running the place." > 2. following this fusion, the outer surface of the egg/zygote changed so > as to repel and prevent any further penetration by any more sperm, > preventing polyspermy...by chance? A scientist would probably point out that over the BILLIONS of years that life has evolved, those egg cells which happened to change their surface properties after entry by sperm had a better chance of successful reproduction. The scientist might even be able to show you similar behaviors at a cellular or other level. > 3. the zygote, travelling to the uterus/womb, manages to adhere and cling > to the uterine wall, settling itself in quite firmly...by chance? There are a great number of chemical reactions that are based on two molecules which "happen" to latch onto each other quite firmly. In fact, this is the basis of much of life, as I understand it -- neural transmitters latching onto neurons, digestive enzymes latching onto proteins etc. Indeed there are quite complex systems which involve the use of multiple molecules (for example, vitamins) to accomplish a specific task. While this may or may not be evidence for the existence of a benevolent God, a scientist would probably say that such systems could emerge over time, and perhaps show you examples of similar, less complicated, systems arranging themselves (as in the case of crystals). >From my current perspective, I believe that evolution is a reality (perhaps guided by God). However, it seems clear that what is evolving is often SYSTEMS rather than isolated individuals. > 4. the ability of the mother to sustain the fetus, ...by chance? Animals at different places on the "tree of life" have different capabilities in this regard. There are in fact a number of transitions in the animal kingdom between: 1. Animals that lay external eggs (with as protective a covering as is required by the environment that they live in) 2. Animals that lay external eggs but then protect their young by taking them into the parent's body (e.g. the Seahorse, where I believe it is the father that takes the young into his mouth to protect them) 3. Animals that hatch their eggs internally, but their young still need some additional time to develop (marsupials) 4. Animals that "hatch" their eggs internally, but the young have a long enough gestation period to survive to a limited extent on their own after birth. The way this all works is quite amazing -- for example, some snakes give birth to live young (we just got a snake, and I'm not sure about her yet!) > 5. a fetus, covered in " three veils of darkness", and growing therein, is > prepared with the ability to SEE, which is of little use to it in the > womb...by chance? Don't know. > 6. the fetus, covered completely in fluid, is prepared nonetheless with a > pair of lungs, and a nose etc, which will enable it to survive once it > emerges into this world...by chance? This would only seem surprising if you thought that evolution could not account for the "evolution" of animals from young to old. A scientist might point out that there are a great number of developmental changes which are built into organisms -- although many of them are flexible rather than "hard wired." Obviously, those fetuses whose genetic makeup was not prepared to evolve as necessary to enable survival outside of the womb wouldn't survive outside of the womb. A scientist might even point out that this is the case with some unfortunate fetuses, which don't have everything necessary to survive, and therefore, die. > 7. the fetus, which is fed by the umbilical cord through its mom, is > nonetheless prepared with a mouth to feed once it emerges into the > world...by chance? Same thing. > Need I go on? Will we not then heed our Lord, who has made for us > signs on every field, every area, every topic, if only we would take the > time to see, and listen, and use the most precious gift He has blessed us > with: intellect. I'm afraid that none of your arguments is particularly convincing to my intellect. My intellect looks at all this stuff and says: how interesting, could be, doesn't have to be, don't know. On the other hand, my heart and my experience tell me there is something guiding my life which is more powerful than I am, and which is better to me than I would be to myself. I am very grateful to that "something" which I call God. God gives me constant signs in my experience, and an intellect which, insh'Allah, can be a tool for helping to manifest God's will and God's work. That's enough for me. Yours, Habib Rose ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #116 *****************************