From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Tue Sep 3 21:35:58 1996 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:42:58 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #120 tariqas-digest Tuesday, 3 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 120 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve H Rose Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: a meeting place W'aleikum asalam. On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, Aurangseb Malik wrote: > Asalamoaleikum everyone. > > I think this mailing list is a real fine thing, > but as i am concerned i have the need for more > 'interactive' exchange as well. > > I'd love to talk with people on sufi path, learn and grow, > in a world wide web, as i can't share the telepathic one yet :) > > So my suggestion is to set an online meeting place, on one > of the smaller and faster IRCs (Internet Releay Chat Networks) > > channel #tariqas would be a fine thing, on servers > irc.superlink.net, irc2.superlink.net > superlink network is especially well designated because there are already > open minded 'spiritual' people of various pathes meeting there on channels > #bridge and #spirit*home. > > It would even be possible to schedule teaching events with a > Shaykh..... but i am dreaming. IRC is a fascinating media :-) > > What do you think? I think these ideas are just wonderful, as long as I don't have to do the work to make them happen! :-) Seriously, if you have the expertise to set something like this up and the time and inclination, by all means!! Yours, Habib ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 23:04:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sidi Mohammed Khalwati (fwd) From: isa-mo@pianeta.it (Francesco Agostini) Subject: Sidi Mohammed Khalwati >Bismillah Ar Rahmani Ar Rahim >wa salli wa sallam 'ala Hadhrat Mustafa wa 'ala alihi wa sallim tasliman > >Dear Brothers and Sisters > >I wish news and information about the Life, the History and the Isnad (SILSILAH) of Maulana sidi Mohammed Khalwati from Aleppo, and about the actually branches of his Tariqa and their practics. > >Please mail to ISA-MO@pianeta.it (Dr. Agostini), because I am not in the mail list. > >Salam wa Rahma > >Hamza Najmuddin - ---------------------------------------- Francesco Agostini ISA (Istituto Sperimentale Agronomico) Modena tel: +39-59-230454 / +39-59-223853 fax: +39-59-214957 e-mail: isa-mo@pianeta.it - ---------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:43:19 +0800 (SGT) Subject: re: Paraclete #1 Salamu'alaikum waRahmatullahi wabarakatuhu ! I am making these posts during very short intervals and this requires speed typing.My information that a few early sects believe that Paraclete or whatever is the correct term was an awaited human being and not a Holy Ghost or Spirit came from what I had read many , many years ago in one edition of the Encyclopaedia Brittanica.And yes Mani was one who believed that he was the Paraclete.As for the Gospel of Barnabas there have been a few Biblical scholars who did not make blanket dismissals of the Gospel as a forgery.Indeed one Muslim scholar a convert to Christianity-I dont know what happened to him - namely Saiyyid Sulaiman Muffasir said that it was a forgery.There are research books on the connection of the Gospel of Barnabas to the Dead Sea Srolls and one was published by the American Trust Publications.I remember the late Rev.Durrani who after converting to Islam accepted that the Gospel of Barnabas while not being the entire truth did contain some truth just like the present day four gospels.I have a lot of re-reading to do because a lot of what I wrote comes from memory .And memory can be elusive.WHATEVER IT IS SOME OF THE PARABLES FOUND IN THE GOSPEL OF BARNABAS ARE TOO BEAUTIFUL TO BE DISMISSED AS FORGERIES ! And I will post the materials once I have collected them.Just because present day Biblical scholars completely ignore the Gospel of Barnabas does not mean that they are correct in doing so. Our minds must always be open unlike some scientists who could not at one time accept the revisions arising from Einstein's theory. I hope we have not disrupted the tariqat group by our digressions. At 17:44 9/2/96 -0700, you wrote: >As-salaam aleikum Zainuddin, > >So, responding to your post. > >> Firstly it is Christian belief that Jesus a.s was strengthened by the Holy >> Ghost which he gave up according to the Bible when he was on the >> cross.So it could not be that he was referring to the coming of the Holy >> Ghost at some future date when it was already present. > >Please reread my earlier post with the thought in mind of the identity of characters >being made in Jesus's discourse, and also in light of circular associations being >made between past, present and future. Also remember that this is a discourse that >Jesus is giving to his disciples for their spiritual benefit. You may find that both >points are being confirmed. The Gospel of John by the way, as well as the Gospel of >Luke, was probably written in Greek, so it's not a question of having to deal with it >being a translation from an earlier Hebrew or Aramaic text. > >> Secondly earlier Sects believed in the coming of a human being who is the >> Paraclete or whatever name is used by Jesus whether quoted in the Bible or >> twisted because of the vagaries of time etc. > >Zainuddin, unless you specify what sects you are referring to, this is a meaningless >statement. There have been 1000s of Christian sects, most of them were founded by >megalomaniacs. Earlier, i had stated that Mani, the founder of Manichaeism in the >early AD 200s, made claims of being the paraclete promised by Jesus. Mani was a >remarkable being in his own right. So there were personal claims by individuals >saying they were the paraclete and sects arose around them, but i don't know of any >community that actually awaited the coming of the paraclete other than Christians >who await for Christ's return. > >But when i think of those sects, or schools of Christian thought and mysticism which > had or may have had some ties to the Apostolic tradition -- meaning a connection >with lineages of Jesus's apostles -- we only find the expectation of Jesus's return and > nothing of the paraclete as a human being except for the identity between Jesus and > the paraclete in a trinitarian context. By those sects i mean the Alexandrian >community which includes Clement and Origen (and Jerome during his early life), the > western Valentinians who claim that Valentinus received his doctrine from one of >Paul's disciples named Theudas, the Syrian lines of Thomas, the Pseudo-Dionysian >corpus which includes Sergius of Reshma which claims apostolic transmission from >Paul, the sect of Basilides who claimed to be a student of Peter's interpreter >Glaucias. > >I do not doubt that there are distortions in the Christian scriptures as a result of >either intentional changes, faulty transcription and/or translation, rearrangement, >removal, additions, all of these or some. But i don't know with any degree of >certainty where in Christians's scriptures these distortions are to be found amidst all >that may be accurate. And i don't believe anyone else knows with absolute certainty >either. > >> Thirdly then comes Al Amin As Sadiq the Honest and Truthful One who >> claims clearly that he is the one prophesied by Jesus... But even before anything >> else Deuteronomy's prophecy of Muhammad coming from Paran and with 10,000 >> saints is repeated in the Song of Solomon which describes the beloved with raven- >> black hair and with ruddy complexion and again with the 10,000 companions.And >> remember when Muhammad re-entered Mecca and conquered it in the most >> bloodless conquest in history , he was accompanied with the 10,000 saints and all >> the while he was praying ,with head hung low in Submission to Allah Almighty.And >> if you were to go further nto the original Hebrew in the Song of Solomon you will >> find his name in Hebrew form of Muhammadim shortly after the opening words of >> Ya Banat ereshalam O Daughters of Jerusalem...... > >Jinavamsa, thank you for your post on this. It saved me a lot of time from having to >research an area i am very ignorant about. > >> Potscript: .... the Gospel of Barnabas which is closer to the style of the >> Dead Sea Scrolls than the four gospels actually quotes the words of Jesus >> about the coming of Muhammad s.aw. > >Zainuddin, where did you get this interpretation? If the Barnabas gospel was similar >to the Dead Sea Scrolls in style, every Qumram scholar who has done hands-on- >work with the original scrolls throughout the international academic community would > be studying and commenting on this gospel. But i have never come across this text >so much as even mentioned in a bibliography in any study concerning the Dead Sea >Scrolls. Moreover, the Gospel of Barnabas is almost unanimously acknowledged by >Biblical scholars who know the classical languages as a very late forgery, probably >composed by a Latin-speaking monk who accompanied the Europeans during the >crusades and converted to Islam. (my apologies to tariqa readers for confusing this >text with the Gospel of Bartholomew in an earlier discussion we had -- was getting >my B-names confused). There is no reference to this text by any early Christian >historian, mystic, or theologian. The original Barnabas was from the Jewish >community on Cyprus which settled there during the Diaspora and connected with >the disciples in Jerusalem. The Epistle or Letter of Barnabas, on the other hand, is a >very ancient text that is commented upon by many early Christian Fathers, and there >is absolutely no similarity between this Epistle and the alleged Gospel. > >Permit me to make a historical observation and that is there is a huge body of >literature in Christianity that was written solely for the purpose of proving that the >coming of Jesus and who he was and what he did is to be found in the Jewish >scriptures. Some of these like the Syriac Book of the Cave of Treasures and the >Book of Bees almost rewrite the Hebrew scriptures, in a manner of speaking, in an >attempt to prove the Christian view. I've attempted to read these works and found it >like going through a wild mythological and psychological roller coaster down a >labyrinth. (for example, identifying the hill of Golgatha where Jesus was crucified as >the exact spot where Adam was buried, and the cross being held in place by Adam's >skull in the earth in order to prove that Jesus was the Second Adam). And even >most contemporary Christian scholars (in fact i cannot think of any exceptions) place > no importance on these books whatsoever after scrutinizing them and their history >carefully. But the kind of psychology that finds an urgent need to produce this kind >of literature is found in all traditions somewhere and i often wonder about the >psychological motivations of such people. For example, the Sutra of the White >Cloud is one such mess that Empress Wu of the Tang Dynasty in China >commissioned Buddhist monks to write to prove that she was Buddha's promised >arrival of Maitreya. As a Sutra, this text purports itself to come from the Buddha's >mouth. And how many Muslim visionaries, such as Mughira ibn Sa'id (d. 119/736), >claimed to be the awaited Mahdi? > >This discussion for me personally is interesting, because it reveals and confronts >how Christians create myths about Islam, and how Muslims create myths about >Christianity. And in turn, we can observe how these myths have the potential to >become barriers for productive communication and dialogue for more noble purposes >such as peace, love, and harmony between peoples and religions -- although i >recognize it is not everyone's cup of tea to study this stuff, nor should it be. One can >look at Ahmed Deedat's "Christ in Islam" on the internet (www.unn.ac.uk) and >observe very confused thinking about Christianity, such as comparing St. Paul to >Hitler. And there are certainly Christians writing similar garbage about Mohammad >PBUH and Islam. Obviously there can be no harmonious discussion between the >religions with such rubbish being published. And very frequently it is the converts >from one religion to another that often generate and/or perpetuate such myths >through their new-found enthusiasm and convictions, and this includes conversion >even within a given religion from one way of thinking or belief to another. It is part of >the psychology of conversion -- an entire discussion in itself. > >Well, i've gone way beyond my time on this thing -- it all just kind of flows out and >before i know it there is a dissertation to chew through. Fariuddein, i am really >looking forward to whatever you can uncover to share with us. My apologies, friends. > >Blessings to you all, > >Nur Jemal > > > > ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:36:34 +0800 Subject: Salat in world religions Assalamualaikum, I have always thought of salat as solely belonging to Islam until I saw a video documentary about Buddists in Tibet performing rituals which look like salat. The documentary is titled "Yellow River" containing several episods of various communities along the Hwang River in China, starting from Tibetan Himalayas and the western part of China to China Sea. There's also a very interesting episod on life in a Hui Chinese Muslim) village. I I remembered correctly the documentary was filmed by Japanese team. The Tibetans performed the rituals i.e standing, bowing and followed by prostrating which is done twice in sucession. This reminds me of typical 2-rakaat sunnah prayer which can be perfomed anytime. The Tibetans prayer is a rapidly done (less than a minute), unlike salat which is slow. It was from a scene about rituals where the Tibetans hung some banners on top of hills. If anyone in the list familiar with this Tibetan ritual, please ... please share your information. The five daily prayer (salat) is obligatory in Islam after Isra and Miraj of the Prophet. At first Jerusalem was the prayer direction until God's revealation to change the direction to Kaaba. This turning point in direction is very significant. Before Muhammad, the religion of Allah is scattered all over the world -- each tribe has its prophet/s with its own rituals. If I can make an analogy a river or rivers, this turning point is like all the rivers merging and finally flow to its destiny -- the Ocean. salam maarof ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:07:46 +0800 Subject: re: Paraclete #1 Thanks Farid, Michael, Zainuddin and especially Nur Gale on views about the book _Gospel of Barnabas_ and _Muhammad in the Bible_. I think both books are common in Muslim countries. I am familiar with the two (I have MITB and a library at my office has GOB). It seems these two are the favourite reference by Muslim when debating with Christians. Ahmad Deedat, I think, rely heavily on MITB in his arguments. Gospel Of Barnabas has a very interesting story how it became public. It is said the original copy is found in the Vatican library, and a priest stumbled upon the book, convert to Islam, and secretly copied the book and distribute it to the public. I wonder if Christians have heard about this story. I hope to hear from you... salam maarof ------------------------------ From: pivotal@inxpress.net (Jabriel Hanafi) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 05:35:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: The Book Dear Azim Thank you for sharring. I have often used something called turbo in the Franlin Sofrtware for catagorising my reading, studies, quotes. Itis not the best database and given that I am working on several writing projects I have been looking for a system that works better. I think that this is a very useful topic and would like to hear how others organize there study material if at all. Love. Jabriel - ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Pivotal Point Dynamics ------------------------------ From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:59:45 -0400 Subject: Re: Pictures anybody? Michael J. Moore writes: Is any body out there willing to share their web page picture with us? I have no idea on God's green and lovely earth why someone would subject themselves to my ugly phiz; however, those whose constitution and sanity need the shock may apply to my web page below. Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( http://www.intermetrics.com/~dlb ------------------------------ From: James McCaig Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:59:12 -0400 Subject: Re: Ninety Nine Most Beautiful Names Welcome back, Brother Jabriel and please begin the posting right away. We shall all look forward to them. Warm regards, At 09:23 AM 8/31/96 -0500, Jabriel wrote: >Please let me know if you would like me start sending the one page >prose versions of the names. Is one a day to much or would once a week be a >more intelligent use of people's time on this server. Love. Jabriel >----------------------------------------- > Jabriel Hanafi > Pivotal Point Dynamics > > > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net ------------------------------ From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:08:15 -0400 Subject: re: Paraclete #1 (long) I can't stand it. I just can't stand it. I have tried and tried to keep out of this discussion; however, this just passed my "total inaccuracy" level. Zainuddin Ismail writes: Salamu 'alaikum w.w. whoever you are.There are a few things which I feel should be understood about the prophecies of Jesus .Firstly it is Christian belief that Jesus a.s was strengthened by the Holy Ghost which he gave up according to the Bible when he was on the cross. No. I have no idea if there is some obscure sect that believes this; however, it is certainly *not* mainstream Christian belief. Jesus never "gave up" the Holy Spirit, nor was he "strengthened" by it. The only primary Christian belief is that Jesus Christ *was* and *is* God, God made man, and therefore shares all attributes of the other two Persons of the Trinity (God may *not* be divided, according to Christian belief. Period.) So it could not be that he was referring to the coming of the Holy Ghost at some future date when it was already present. You miss the most telling evidence; that Jesus, after his Resurrection but before the Ascension, breathed on his disciples and told them to receive the Holy Spirit. He was physically present when this happened, and breathed on them to signify the transmission of the Spirit. I cannot comment on the Quaranic exegesis that Mr. Ismail makes later, as I am not competant to do so. But the theology of the Paraclete is well developed in all mainline Christian denominations, both western and eastern. Some small details vary; however, in *all* of them the coming of the Holy Spirit is a constant process, occurring in every generation and potentially to every Christian. There is *no* Christian belief that has the Paraclete embodied as a man, or predicts such a coming, in any mainline Christian church. The second coming of Christ, which *is* believed by many (but not all), is not the same thing as the coming of the Holy Spirit. This has been such a topic here that I had to speak out; however, Christian theology is, in my opinion, not a legitimate topic on this group, and I will severely limit any replies to the group as a whole. I will do my best to respond to honest questions, and engage in honest discussion, via Email. Those who are more interested in a summary of Christian belief that can fairly be said to be shared by most mainline Christian churches, without regard to denomination, should look at "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis. It is not too long, and is an easy read. It also contains one of the most readable treatments of the doctrine of the Trinity, and its place in Christian belief. For a more traditional and authoritative statement of the belief of the Trinity, try the Athanasian(sp?) Creed, found in the prayer books of most denominations. It was written specifically to deal with the many heresies that were springing up around the Trinity during the early years of the Church. Nur's post, by the way, was an excellent summary of Scripture on the topic. Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( http://www.intermetrics.com/~dlb ------------------------------ From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:23:57 -0400 Subject: re: Paraclete #1 Maarof writes: Gospel Of Barnabas has a very interesting story how it became public. It is said the original copy is found in the Vatican library, and a priest stumbled upon the book, convert to Islam, and secretly copied the book and distribute it to the public. I wonder if Christians have heard about this story. I hope to hear from you... Yes, speaking as a Christian, I have heard of the story in passing. I have no idea if it is true, and have heard no pronouncement one way or the other from the Roman Catholic church. Certainly, one way or the other, it would have become public after the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls (unless my memory deceives me; I seem to recall a copy of the Gospel of Barnabas was one of the documents in that collection). "The Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels is an excellent scholarly work on the subject. It is also very readable, and accessible to the layman (at least, as a layman, I found it accessible). Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( http://www.intermetrics.com/~dlb ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 20:42:24 +0800 (SGT) Subject: re: Paraclete #1 BismiLlahiriRahmaaniraheem which not literally should actually mean In the name of Allah the Fount of Mercy ,Love and Compassion.(See Muhammad Asad's tafsir for the connotations of Love in the formula called Al-Basmala) Assalamu'alaikum w.w. When there are two, Allah is the third and when there are three Allah our Beloved is the fourth.And He is nearer to you than your jugular vein.So even when we are e-mailing and remembering Him , He is with us.Allah ma 'akum. I tried during lunchtime tried to get hold of my old resources regarding the Biblical prophecies about Muhammad but time would not permit me .Just a few minutes before magrib after returning home Lo and behold I came across this beautiful article on the Paraclete SO HERE IT IS IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO STUDY IT IN DEPTH "There is an amazing number of things which the Christian reader of the New Testament misses in even the most thorough reading, because his frame of reference and his scrutiny are controlled carefully by official Church dogma.The Christian sees the Bible as an end in itself, whereas in reality it is but an indicator pointing the way to something else which was then yet to come.Until this event occured , the Biblewas an incomplete , unfulfilled Book and many of its profound prophecies could not be grasped completely.Christian theologians and scholars, eager to impress their following, often erred in assigning premature "fulfillments" to those foregleams of the future.When the prophecies actually came true these erroneous conjectures had assumed the status of dogma, blinding Christians to the fruition of their own beliefs. An exceptional example of the dangers of such hasty interpretations is the standard Christian exegesis of John 14:16,17 and 16:7-14.Giving Christians the benefit of the doubt we will assume that the accepted Greek text, records in general the actual saying of Jesus.In these verses Jesus highlights the brevity of his own mission, showing its intermediate status as a link between the prophetic past and the prophetic future.It is significant that JESUS NEVER CALLED HIMSELF THE LAST PROPHET, OR EVEN THE UNIVERSAL PROPHET THOUGH CHRISTIANS LATER CAME TO CONSIDER HIM BOTH.On the contrary , here when read carefully with regard to the Greek text rather than the creeds of the Established Churches.Jesus points out specifically to the coming of another prophet after him who would :- 1.Be eminently truthful and trustworthy 2 Teach only what God revealed and 3 Honour Jesus by carrying the prophetic mission on to its logical conclusion. A characteristic of what is termed Biblical prophecyis that it merely gives outlines which become perfectly distinct only upon the unfolding of reality.......Biblical prophecy does have certain safeguards which make the intended interpretation sure beyond doubt.The New Testament records Jesus as saying:- LET NOT YOUR HEART BE TROUBLED, YOU BELIEVE IN GOD, BELIEVE ALSO IN ME.....I GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU..... AND I WILL PRAY THE FATHER AND HE SHALL GIVEYOU ANOTHER COMFORTER (Greek Parakleetos), THAT HEMAY ABIDE WITH YOU FOREVER EVEN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH (John 14:1,16.17) Jesus says that the Prophet who would come after him would be a true Messenger commissioned by God who like Jesus would possess a heavenly Revelation from God teaching not words of his own composition , but whatever God gave him to speak :- "BUT WHEN HE , THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH IS COME, HE WIL GUIDE YOU UNTO ALL TRUTHS, FOR HE SHALL NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF; BUT WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR (FROM GOD) THAT SHALL HE SPEAK: AND HE SHALL SHOW YOU THINGS TO COME .HE SHALL GLORIFY ME, FOR HE SHALL RECEIVE OF MINE AND SHALL SHOW IT TO YOU (John 16: 13, 14) Thus additionally this coming Prophet would not spurn the mission of Jesus but would recognise it and actually "glorify" Jesus by removing from association with him all the false doctrines with which others surrounded the name.Unlike the Jews in general, this Prophet would not belie the mission of Jesus buttake the prophetic mission to conclusion.Now, who would this be? Jesus calls him the "Paraclete" This ex Baptist Minister then continues "We cannot discount the opinion that what Jesus really said in his own language of Aramaic , was nearer in meaning to the similar Greek word " Periclyte" meaning the praised one , and that "John" an unknown writer in the 2nd century of the Christian era picked up "Paraclete" in error.However until positive textual evidence is available, we shall continue to give the received text the benefit of the doubt, because even in its admittedly defective condition,the light of truth shines forth in it with startling brilliance. For centuries, based onthe King James Version, Christendom has translated "Paraclete" as the Comforter though that is not precisely what Paraclete means.Even so, Comforter would be an acceptable title for the one who is referred to in the Quran as "the mercy for all creatures" (i.e Muhammad) What Paraclete means though , is an advocate , one who pleads the cause of another, one who counsels or advises.The word points to one who would be an advocate for and counsellor to mankind, who , as the Quran puts it, would be "harisun alaikum" " solicitious for your welfare " (Likewise in English, "solicitor" is synonymous with "advocate" in the legal sense) Another indication which acts as a safeguard for the true meaning of these verses is that the "Paraclete" is also given the title " Spirit of Truth" ( in Greek : to pneuma tees aleetheias) This is clear when one realises that in the New Testament , the Greek word for "pneuma" can mean "possessor of a spiritual communication" that is to say , an inspired person , as well as a "spirit" perse (Ref: Greek English Lexicon to the New Testament by Rev.Thomas S.Green) Thus "to pneuma tees aleetheias" " the inspired truthful one " means that the "Paraclete" would be so truthful and trustworthy in discharging his responsibilities to the Divine Revelation , that " the Truthful" or "the Trustworthy" would be identifying titles for him.The Greek "Aleethees" corresponds exactly with the Arabic " Amin" and "Al-Amin " (Trustworthy was an early title of Muhammad s.a.wassalam) It is thus obvious thatsome hasty scholar (editor) was not satisfied with the expression "spirit of truth" or did not understand it and assumed that this mst be the same as the "Holy Spirit" The words at John 14:26 which identify the " Paraclete" as the "Holy Spirit" are the result of this.Such words are found nowhere else and are obviously an addition to the text.Yet this premature interpretation, unsound textually , is the one generally accepted by the Church for explaining who the "Paraclete " is ! But Jeus has spoken of someone who would dwell physically with mankind, advising and counselling them , in effect, " pleading their case " with God and showing them the sure way of return, adherance to the truth,to the Divine Judge.He was someone who was already present but someone yet to come. As for the holy spirit, the angel of revelation, his presence was already manifest.David knew him and asked God "take not thy holy spirit from me" (Psalms 51: 11) The holy spirit was already presentduring the ministry of Jesus, a fact which the New Testament acknowleges abundantly (Cf Mathew 3:16,17;12:27-28 etc)It would have been ridiculous and redundant for Jesus to speak of the future coming (*He shall/will give you...") of what presently existed. Jesus points to a fundamental distinction between the Paraclete and all other prophets " that he may abide with you forever" This is the same thing as saying " the Last Prophet whose mission has permanence, avoiding the need for any additional prophets" In plain English , Jesus is saying "Look ,I must go away soon , my mission among you having been completed.But I will ask our Lord to send for al of you another Counsellor the prophet who will stand as your guide until the end of time " To be continued , later tonight.but I will come back much later on the issues I raised regarding Deuteronomy and Song of Solomon and some very scholarly and highly researched materials on the Gospel of Barnabas and the Dead Sea Scrolls. Love and nothing but Love. Zainuddin Ismail At 17:44 9/2/96 -0700, you wrote: >As-salaam aleikum Zainuddin, > >So, responding to your post. > >> Firstly it is Christian belief that Jesus a.s was strengthened by the Holy >> Ghost which he gave up according to the Bible when he was on the >> cross.So it could not be that he was referring to the coming of the Holy >> Ghost at some future date when it was already present. > >Please reread my earlier post with the thought in mind of the identity of characters >being made in Jesus's discourse, and also in light of circular associations being >made between past, present and future. Also remember that this is a discourse that >Jesus is giving to his disciples for their spiritual benefit. You may find that both >points are being confirmed. The Gospel of John by the way, as well as the Gospel of >Luke, was probably written in Greek, so it's not a question of having to deal with it >being a translation from an earlier Hebrew or Aramaic text. > >> Secondly earlier Sects believed in the coming of a human being who is the >> Paraclete or whatever name is used by Jesus whether quoted in the Bible or >> twisted because of the vagaries of time etc. > >Zainuddin, unless you specify what sects you are referring to, this is a meaningless >statement. There have been 1000s of Christian sects, most of them were founded by >megalomaniacs. Earlier, i had stated that Mani, the founder of Manichaeism in the >early AD 200s, made claims of being the paraclete promised by Jesus. Mani was a >remarkable being in his own right. So there were personal claims by individuals >saying they were the paraclete and sects arose around them, but i don't know of any >community that actually awaited the coming of the paraclete other than Christians >who await for Christ's return. > >But when i think of those sects, or schools of Christian thought and mysticism which > had or may have had some ties to the Apostolic tradition -- meaning a connection >with lineages of Jesus's apostles -- we only find the expectation of Jesus's return and > nothing of the paraclete as a human being except for the identity between Jesus and > the paraclete in a trinitarian context. By those sects i mean the Alexandrian >community which includes Clement and Origen (and Jerome during his early life), the > western Valentinians who claim that Valentinus received his doctrine from one of >Paul's disciples named Theudas, the Syrian lines of Thomas, the Pseudo-Dionysian >corpus which includes Sergius of Reshma which claims apostolic transmission from >Paul, the sect of Basilides who claimed to be a student of Peter's interpreter >Glaucias. > >I do not doubt that there are distortions in the Christian scriptures as a result of >either intentional changes, faulty transcription and/or translation, rearrangement, >removal, additions, all of these or some. But i don't know with any degree of >certainty where in Christians's scriptures these distortions are to be found amidst all >that may be accurate. And i don't believe anyone else knows with absolute certainty >either. > >> Thirdly then comes Al Amin As Sadiq the Honest and Truthful One who >> claims clearly that he is the one prophesied by Jesus... But even before anything >> else Deuteronomy's prophecy of Muhammad coming from Paran and with 10,000 >> saints is repeated in the Song of Solomon which describes the beloved with raven- >> black hair and with ruddy complexion and again with the 10,000 companions.And >> remember when Muhammad re-entered Mecca and conquered it in the most >> bloodless conquest in history , he was accompanied with the 10,000 saints and all >> the while he was praying ,with head hung low in Submission to Allah Almighty.And >> if you were to go further nto the original Hebrew in the Song of Solomon you will >> find his name in Hebrew form of Muhammadim shortly after the opening words of >> Ya Banat ereshalam O Daughters of Jerusalem...... > >Jinavamsa, thank you for your post on this. It saved me a lot of time from having to >research an area i am very ignorant about. > >> Potscript: .... the Gospel of Barnabas which is closer to the style of the >> Dead Sea Scrolls than the four gospels actually quotes the words of Jesus >> about the coming of Muhammad s.aw. > >Zainuddin, where did you get this interpretation? If the Barnabas gospel was similar >to the Dead Sea Scrolls in style, every Qumram scholar who has done hands-on- >work with the original scrolls throughout the international academic community would > be studying and commenting on this gospel. But i have never come across this text >so much as even mentioned in a bibliography in any study concerning the Dead Sea >Scrolls. Moreover, the Gospel of Barnabas is almost unanimously acknowledged by >Biblical scholars who know the classical languages as a very late forgery, probably >composed by a Latin-speaking monk who accompanied the Europeans during the >crusades and converted to Islam. (my apologies to tariqa readers for confusing this >text with the Gospel of Bartholomew in an earlier discussion we had -- was getting >my B-names confused). There is no reference to this text by any early Christian >historian, mystic, or theologian. The original Barnabas was from the Jewish >community on Cyprus which settled there during the Diaspora and connected with >the disciples in Jerusalem. The Epistle or Letter of Barnabas, on the other hand, is a >very ancient text that is commented upon by many early Christian Fathers, and there >is absolutely no similarity between this Epistle and the alleged Gospel. > >Permit me to make a historical observation and that is there is a huge body of >literature in Christianity that was written solely for the purpose of proving that the >coming of Jesus and who he was and what he did is to be found in the Jewish >scriptures. Some of these like the Syriac Book of the Cave of Treasures and the >Book of Bees almost rewrite the Hebrew scriptures, in a manner of speaking, in an >attempt to prove the Christian view. I've attempted to read these works and found it >like going through a wild mythological and psychological roller coaster down a >labyrinth. (for example, identifying the hill of Golgatha where Jesus was crucified as >the exact spot where Adam was buried, and the cross being held in place by Adam's >skull in the earth in order to prove that Jesus was the Second Adam). And even >most contemporary Christian scholars (in fact i cannot think of any exceptions) place > no importance on these books whatsoever after scrutinizing them and their history >carefully. But the kind of psychology that finds an urgent need to produce this kind >of literature is found in all traditions somewhere and i often wonder about the >psychological motivations of such people. For example, the Sutra of the White >Cloud is one such mess that Empress Wu of the Tang Dynasty in China >commissioned Buddhist monks to write to prove that she was Buddha's promised >arrival of Maitreya. As a Sutra, this text purports itself to come from the Buddha's >mouth. And how many Muslim visionaries, such as Mughira ibn Sa'id (d. 119/736), >claimed to be the awaited Mahdi? > >This discussion for me personally is interesting, because it reveals and confronts >how Christians create myths about Islam, and how Muslims create myths about >Christianity. And in turn, we can observe how these myths have the potential to >become barriers for productive communication and dialogue for more noble purposes >such as peace, love, and harmony between peoples and religions -- although i >recognize it is not everyone's cup of tea to study this stuff, nor should it be. One can >look at Ahmed Deedat's "Christ in Islam" on the internet (www.unn.ac.uk) and >observe very confused thinking about Christianity, such as comparing St. Paul to >Hitler. And there are certainly Christians writing similar garbage about Mohammad >PBUH and Islam. Obviously there can be no harmonious discussion between the >religions with such rubbish being published. And very frequently it is the converts >from one religion to another that often generate and/or perpetuate such myths >through their new-found enthusiasm and convictions, and this includes conversion >even within a given religion from one way of thinking or belief to another. It is part of >the psychology of conversion -- an entire discussion in itself. > >Well, i've gone way beyond my time on this thing -- it all just kind of flows out and >before i know it there is a dissertation to chew through. Fariuddein, i am really >looking forward to whatever you can uncover to share with us. My apologies, friends. > >Blessings to you all, > >Nur Jemal > > > > ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #120 *****************************