From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Tue Sep 3 21:36:14 1996 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:08:13 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #121 tariqas-digest Tuesday, 3 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 121 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Rice Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:25:47 +1000 (EST) Subject: re: Paraclete #1 Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah, On Tue, 3 Sep 1996, maarof wrote: > Gospel Of Barnabas has a very interesting story how it became public. > It is said the original copy is found in the Vatican library, and a priest > stumbled upon the book, convert to Islam, and secretly copied the book > and distribute it to the public. I must admit, the "Gospel of Barnabas" story has many interesting aspects, however, to my understanding there is very strong evidence that what we have of this text is either a medievel forgery, or else could be based on an earlier document which was then altered in medievel times.... I personally am skeptical about the authenticity of this book.... I still hope to summarize some of the "paraclete" arguments, insha-Allah.... not to cause division, but just out of interest. :) I have much respect for Christianity, and there were many great Christian Mystics, like Meister Eckhart, etc. :) Wassalam, Fariduddien ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 06:57:39 -0700 Subject: RUMI 258 WHERE DID IT ALL GO the dancing the love and the music could it be that none was there or it was but all went to the vanishing point it is better not to be skeptic look at Moses' magic cane one minute a cane the next a dragon or was it a dragon first and as it devoured the world within its existence it changed to a cane every situation is like an arrow when it is gone my friend seek and find it in the target though a pearl has stolen a grain of sand from the nearby shore a wise diver will seek it out in the depth of the ocean floor ghazal number 840, translated April 16, 1992, by Nader Khalili. IF YOU STAY AWAKE for an entire night watch out for a treasure trying to arrive you can keep warm by the secret sun of the night keeping you eyes open for the softness of dawn try it for tonight challenge your sleepy eyes do not lay your head down wait for heavenly alms night is the bringer of gifts Moses went on a ten-year journey during a single night invited by a tree to watch the fire and light Mohammed too made his passage during that holy night when he heard the glorious voice when he ascended to the sky day is to make a living night is only for love commoners sleep fast lovers whisper to God all night all night long a voice calls upon you to wake up in the precious hours if you miss your chance now when your body is left behind your soul will lament death is a life of no return ghazal number 258, translated April 13, 1992, by Nader Khalili. tanzen ------------------------------ From: Saint Download Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 07:10:33 -0800 Subject: Re: Pictures anybody? Well ...Salaam my friends: long time away and back; it is good to see brotherly/sisterly scholarly discusions! Very interesting! In the time I have made my Enneagram in color available on the web; also a few colored sufi images (if they're really there!) all done in Canvas; a excellent graphics program for the mac.Good for playing with text:turn words sideways;curve words;color etc!! http://www2.cruzio.com/~dances and a better page is: http://www.nimatullahi.org my knowledge of html is atrocious;) May Allah's blessings be upon your head James Hallam ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 22:15:48 +0800 (SGT) Subject: re: Paraclete #1 (long) Salamu 'alaikum.Well I agree the discussion on Paraclete should not have been introduced in this discussion.But just one part this time so meanwhile take it easy and be graceful "To prove conclusively that John understood the PARACLETE to be a flesh and blood person not a disembodied spirit or an angel , in another New Testament book attributed to him (1 John 2:1) he used the same term with reference to Jesus "We have an advocate (Greek parakleetos, same word rendered "Comforter" earlier) with the FATHER, Jesus the righteous.Jesus , as God's Messenger was considered to be a "PARACLETE"; the term was thus not understood by early Christians to mean someone supernatural.The fact is that PARACLETE or "Counsellor" or "Advocate" refers to a human being an inspiredperson which is a legitimate meaning of "PNEUMA" not a "SPIRIT" perse.In practical terms the meaning of "PARACLETE" is nearly synonymous with "PROPHET" with emphasis on the teaching and counselling aspects of prophethood.If Jesus said "Another Paraclete" at John 14:16 the significance is "ANOTHER PROPHET, OUTSTANDING FOR HIS TEACHING AND COUNSELLING" Furthermore Jesus a.s.qualifies this PARACLETE by terming him the one to "ABIDE....FOREVER" the last or permanent one. "There is yet another possibility for the serious researcher.There are numerous instances in the history of biblical textual transmission wherein words have been added inadvertently to the Hebrew and Greek ktexts; likewise there are instances wherein words, indeed complete sentences have been omited inadvertently from those texts by copyists, especiallywhere the letters of the omitted word were similar to another word which preceded or followed it.In the Ancient Text (Not Original Text-because there is none) the letters were all run together, without spacing, so that Jesus 's words at JOHN 14:16 would have looked like this in the Greek text KAIEGOEROOTEESOOTONPATERAKAIALLONPARAKLEET- ONDOOSEIMIN.Later, words were spaced so that we have: KAI EGO EROOTEESOO TON PATERA KAI ALLON PARAKLEETON DOOSEI UMIN ("And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Paraclete") "The point is that the received Greek text's "paraclete" may not be a corruption of "periclyte" .The original text might well have contained both words, but one became omitted in later copying because being so close in position and in spelling to the other.Only further research can resolve the matter but it is possible that what Jesus alai salam said originally was along these lines " I will request our Lord and He will send you another Counsellor, the Praised One, who will be permanent for you until the end of time" This is not entirely hypothetical; it has actually happened with other words and sentences of the Greek New Testament"Nevertheless there is no one else in all history that John 14:16 et seq could refer to but MUHAMMAD BIN ABDULLAH s.a.w.Christians admit that these verses do not refer to Jesus himself, andthe premature identification of the paraclete with the Holy Spirit is Untenable in view of other verses of the Bible.Further no one else hascome as a prophet giving due recognition to the mission of Jesus ("He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine...." (John 16:14) No one has led mankind into "all truth" (John 16:13) One one man has received God's Revelation since the time of Jesus a.s.and only one man stands as a Counsellor and Advocate (Paraclete) for mankind for all ages to come, Praised ("Periclyte") by God and some ......millions of the human family." Sulaiman Shahid Mufassir former Baptist Minister. as published in Impact International, London.1973 Whoever it is that says "I cant stand it" please have patience and perserverance .Information used by Muslims by and large come from Christian sources people who were eminent researchers in the Roman Catholic world , etc and who converted to Islam.Anyway unless there is some other forum I will still post information in due course on the issue of Moses prediction of the coming of Muhammad s.a.w and the clear description of Muhammad in the Song of Solomon.It is not fair to use the words "total inaccuracy" level when the people quoted included the Bishop Benjamin Keldani Doctor of Divinity, who was on the Pope's teaching staff.WHO WAS HONOURED BY HIS CHURCH TO BE ASKED TO TRANSLATE THE AVE MARIA INTO DIFFERENT LANGUAGES ,WHO WAS HIMSELF A SCHOLAR IN LANGUAGES CONSIDERED DEAD BUTWHICH WERE AND ARE RELEVANT TO PROPER BIBLICAL RESEARCH. SUFISM CANNOT BE DIVORCED FROM THE SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH.SO PLEASE DONT USE INSULTING TERMS SUCH AS CHASING ONE'S OWN TERMS AND OTHER CONDESCENSIONS.FOR US ISLAM IN ITSELF IS ADEQUATE AND THESE THINGS SUCH AS THE PRESENT DISCUSSION DOES NOT AND CANNOT AFFECT FAITH, SO PLEASE TAKE IT EASY BROTHER DEAR. At 08:08 9/3/96 -0400, you wrote: >I can't stand it. I just can't stand it. I have tried and tried to >keep out of this discussion; however, this just passed my "total >inaccuracy" level. > >Zainuddin Ismail writes: > > Salamu 'alaikum w.w. whoever you are.There are a few things which I feel > should be understood about the prophecies of Jesus .Firstly it is Christian > belief that Jesus a.s was strengthened by the Holy Ghost which he gave up > according to the Bible when he was on the cross. > >No. I have no idea if there is some obscure sect that believes this; >however, it is certainly *not* mainstream Christian belief. Jesus >never "gave up" the Holy Spirit, nor was he "strengthened" by it. The >only primary Christian belief is that Jesus Christ *was* and *is* God, >God made man, and therefore shares all attributes of the other two >Persons of the Trinity (God may *not* be divided, according to >Christian belief. Period.) > > So it could not be that he > was referring to the coming of the Holy Ghost at some future date when it > was already present. > >You miss the most telling evidence; that Jesus, after his Resurrection >but before the Ascension, breathed on his disciples and told them to >receive the Holy Spirit. He was physically present when this >happened, and breathed on them to signify the transmission of the >Spirit. > >I cannot comment on the Quaranic exegesis that Mr. Ismail makes later, >as I am not competant to do so. But the theology of the Paraclete is >well developed in all mainline Christian denominations, both western >and eastern. Some small details vary; however, in *all* of them the >coming of the Holy Spirit is a constant process, occurring in every >generation and potentially to every Christian. There is *no* >Christian belief that has the Paraclete embodied as a man, or predicts >such a coming, in any mainline Christian church. The second coming of >Christ, which *is* believed by many (but not all), is not the same >thing as the coming of the Holy Spirit. > >This has been such a topic here that I had to speak out; however, >Christian theology is, in my opinion, not a legitimate topic on this >group, and I will severely limit any replies to the group as a whole. >I will do my best to respond to honest questions, and engage in honest >discussion, via Email. > >Those who are more interested in a summary of Christian belief that >can fairly be said to be shared by most mainline Christian churches, >without regard to denomination, should look at "Mere Christianity" by >C.S. Lewis. It is not too long, and is an easy read. It also >contains one of the most readable treatments of the doctrine of the >Trinity, and its place in Christian belief. For a more traditional >and authoritative statement of the belief of the Trinity, try the >Athanasian(sp?) Creed, found in the prayer books of most >denominations. It was written specifically to deal with the many >heresies that were springing up around the Trinity during the early >years of the Church. > >Nur's post, by the way, was an excellent summary of Scripture on the >topic. > > > Dave Barton <*> > dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( > http://www.intermetrics.com/~dlb > ------------------------------ From: Saint Download Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 07:19:32 -0800 Subject: re: Paraclete #1 (long) Salaam Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 22:18:32 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Song of Songs (short) [was Re: Paraclete #1 (long) Salam.Love you for your reply.Please give me time to collect my materials. At 14:50 9/2/96 -0400, you wrote: >hello Zainuddin and all, > >In a message dated 96-09-02 09:35:11 EDT, sham@po.pacific.net.sg (Zainuddin >Ismail) writes .... <<>>>: > >>But even before anything else Deuteronomy's prophecy of Muhammad > >interesting: where in Deuternomy is this found? what is way in which Muhammad >is referred to (name or description, in Hebrew)? > >>coming from Paran and with 10,000 saints is repeated in the Song of Solomon >>which describes the beloved with raven-black hair and with ruddy complexion >>and again with the 10,000 companions. > >In Song of Songs (Song of Solomon), I find this description at 5:10-16, but >no mention of 10,000 anything. What passage are you thinking of? > >>And remember when Muhammad re-entered >>Mecca and conquered it in the most bloodless conquest in history , he was > >may this style of conquest of his be a message for all mankind > >>accompanied with the 10,000 saints and all the while he was praying ,with >>head hung low in Submission to Allah Almighty.And if you were to go further >>into the original Hebrew in the Song of Solomon you will find his name in >>Hebrew form of Muhammadim shortly after the opening words of Ya Banat >>Yereshalam O Daughters of Jerusalem...... > >if I may, one last question here: I do not find Ya Banat Yereshalam O >Daughters of Jerusalem in the Song of Songs of Solomon. What I do find, >repeatedly, is the expressopm Daughters of Jerusalem, which in the Hebrew >reads b'not Y'rushala'im (at 2:7, 3:5, 5:8, 5:16), with no Ya preceding in >any of these cases. Which passage are you thinking of? And what is the Hebrew >form of Muhammad (Muhammadim=?) > >very interesting practice, looking back to see indications of the later >teachings in earlier teachings. > >in peace, >Jinavamsa > > ------------------------------ From: Lilyan Kay Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 07:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: re: Paraclete #1 asalaam-u-aleikum I would like to repectfully request that we not repost what has already appeared in its entirety - my email box is getting overstuffed repeatedly by these huge posts that consist mostly of what has already been posted. Lily ------------------------------ From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 10:47:58 -0400 Subject: re: Paraclete #1 (long) Zainuddin Ismail writes: Whoever it is that says "I cant stand it" please have patience and perserverance .Information used by Muslims by and large come from Christian sources people who were eminent researchers in the Roman Catholic world , etc and who converted to Islam.Anyway unless there is some other forum I will still post information in due course on the issue of Moses prediction of the coming of Muhammad s.a.w and the clear description of Muhammad in the Song of Solomon.It is not fair to use the words "total inaccuracy" level when the people quoted included the Bishop Benjamin Keldani Doctor of Divinity, who was on the Pope's teaching staff.WHO WAS HONOURED BY HIS CHURCH TO BE ASKED TO TRANSLATE THE AVE MARIA INTO DIFFERENT LANGUAGES ,WHO WAS HIMSELF A SCHOLAR IN LANGUAGES CONSIDERED DEAD BUTWHICH WERE AND ARE RELEVANT TO PROPER BIBLICAL RESEARCH. SUFISM CANNOT BE DIVORCED FROM THE SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH.SO PLEASE DONT USE INSULTING TERMS SUCH AS CHASING ONE'S OWN TERMS AND OTHER CONDESCENSIONS.FOR US ISLAM IN ITSELF IS ADEQUATE AND THESE THINGS SUCH AS THE PRESENT DISCUSSION DOES NOT AND CANNOT AFFECT FAITH, SO PLEASE TAKE IT EASY BROTHER DEAR. The term was not applied to any Muslim doctrine, nor to any pronouncement of Bishop Keldani (of whom I have not heard), but to your characterization of "Christian belief", which was not. Inaccurate, and totally inaccurate, is not a statement of insult but a statement of fact. I doubt very much if Bishop Keldani characterized your statements as "Christian belief"; if so, he was just as incorrect. Overall Christian belief is not rocket science, nor is it obscure in any way. There are *lots* of places where there is *lots* of room for disagreement in Christian theology, and lots of places where it is perfectly permissible (especially here, on a mystically oriented mailing list) to state that overall Christian belief is simply wrong, or misguided, or (as your last post stated) that it has been drasticly altered by the traditional Church. You may make such statements as often as you like (and you have) without a peep from me. However, for the sake of the overall discussion, misrepresenting "overall Christian belief" is not something I can let you pass by. Given that there are lots of Christians (lots and lots), and that the areas where they are in broad agreement are well understood, this is a matter of simple fact. I gave a good reference (as you have); rather than jump up and down and accuse you of insulting him, I will simply state that his account agrees with others. Nor, by the way, did I accuse you of "chasing your own terms". I was not intentionally condescending; it is simply an area I know well, and can therefore comment on (as you have in areas that you know well). Your knowledge on the Muslim treatment of the doctrine of the Paraclete is vastly superior to mine; I corrected you on the narrow subject of overall Christian belief. And there is no need to SHOUT so. Islam should indeed be adequate to you; well and good. By all means continue posting. However, if you misrepresent overall Christian doctrine, I will correct to the best of my ability from what knowledge I have (as I am enjoined, to an extent, to do). Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( http://www.intermetrics.com/~dlb ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:25:10 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Salat in world religions Salamu 'alaikum w.w. If we believe that God had sent Prophets from ancient times and that there were believers thousands of years before historical Islam then why do we wonder that the salat-like worship of Tibetans , Jews, resembles to some extent our form of Salat.The only difference is the purity of form and ritual of our salat.How did our Holy Prophet pray in the Jabal Nur before revelation came to him? The muwahideen among his ancestors and contemporaries known as Hunafa knew how to worship God . And perhaps some of the postures of Yoga I think you call them asanas may have been ancient forms of salat.Anyway a book called Namaz the YOGA OF ISLAM explains the beauty of our form of Salat which is the quintessence of the benefits of Yoga, Alhamdu Lillah. At 16:36 9/3/96 +0800, you wrote: > >Assalamualaikum, > >I have always thought of salat as solely belonging to Islam >until I saw a video documentary about Buddists in Tibet performing >rituals which look like salat. > >The documentary is titled "Yellow River" containing several episods >of various communities along the Hwang River in China, starting from >Tibetan Himalayas and the western part of China to China Sea. There's >also a very interesting episod on life in a Hui Chinese Muslim) village. > >I I remembered correctly the documentary was filmed by Japanese team. > >The Tibetans performed the rituals i.e standing, bowing and followed >by prostrating which is done twice in sucession. This reminds me of >typical 2-rakaat sunnah prayer which can be perfomed anytime. >The Tibetans prayer is a rapidly done (less than a minute), >unlike salat which is slow. It was from a scene about rituals where >the Tibetans hung some banners on top of hills. > >If anyone in the list familiar with this Tibetan ritual, please >... please share your information. > >The five daily prayer (salat) is obligatory in Islam after >Isra and Miraj of the Prophet. At first Jerusalem was the >prayer direction until God's revealation to change the direction >to Kaaba. This turning point in direction is very significant. >Before Muhammad, the religion of Allah is scattered all over >the world -- each tribe has its prophet/s with its own rituals. >If I can make an analogy a river or rivers, this turning point >is like all the rivers merging and finally flow to its >destiny -- the Ocean. > >salam >maarof > > ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 23:49:45 +0800 (SGT) Subject: re: Paraclete #1 (long) Salamu 'alaikum brother.I thank you for your reply.We all love Jesus and I hope that one day will come that we all including non-Muslims can say that we all love Muhammad s.a.w who would not have written as I have written -in a unconsciously reactionary manner.Now I realise that using Capital Letters can mean shouting and not just emphasising.Sorry a million times.I think at the appropriate time I will give the full information concerning Bishop Benjamin Keldani who lived more than a hundred years ago and whose book was published and republished all over the Muslim world.Yes u used descriptive language and not emotional language.You are right . At 10:47 9/3/96 -0400, you wrote: >Zainuddin Ismail writes: > > Whoever it is that says "I cant stand it" please have patience and > perserverance .Information used by Muslims by and large come from > Christian sources people who were eminent researchers in the Roman > Catholic world , etc and who converted to Islam.Anyway unless there > is some other forum I will still post information in due course on > the issue of Moses prediction of the coming of Muhammad s.a.w and > the clear description of Muhammad in the Song of Solomon.It is not > fair to use the words "total inaccuracy" level when the people > quoted included the Bishop Benjamin Keldani Doctor of Divinity, who > was on the Pope's teaching staff.WHO WAS HONOURED BY HIS CHURCH TO > BE ASKED TO TRANSLATE THE AVE MARIA INTO DIFFERENT LANGUAGES ,WHO > WAS HIMSELF A SCHOLAR IN LANGUAGES CONSIDERED DEAD BUTWHICH WERE > AND ARE RELEVANT TO PROPER BIBLICAL RESEARCH. SUFISM CANNOT BE > DIVORCED FROM THE SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH.SO PLEASE DONT USE INSULTING > TERMS SUCH AS CHASING ONE'S OWN TERMS AND OTHER CONDESCENSIONS.FOR > US ISLAM IN ITSELF IS ADEQUATE AND THESE THINGS SUCH AS THE PRESENT > DISCUSSION DOES NOT AND CANNOT AFFECT FAITH, SO PLEASE TAKE IT EASY > BROTHER DEAR. > >The term was not applied to any Muslim doctrine, nor to any >pronouncement of Bishop Keldani (of whom I have not heard), but to >your characterization of "Christian belief", which was not. >Inaccurate, and totally inaccurate, is not a statement of insult but a >statement of fact. I doubt very much if Bishop Keldani characterized >your statements as "Christian belief"; if so, he was just as >incorrect. > >Overall Christian belief is not rocket science, nor is it obscure in >any way. There are *lots* of places where there is *lots* of room for >disagreement in Christian theology, and lots of places where it is >perfectly permissible (especially here, on a mystically oriented >mailing list) to state that overall Christian belief is simply wrong, >or misguided, or (as your last post stated) that it has been drasticly >altered by the traditional Church. You may make such statements as >often as you like (and you have) without a peep from me. However, for >the sake of the overall discussion, misrepresenting "overall Christian >belief" is not something I can let you pass by. Given that there are >lots of Christians (lots and lots), and that the areas where they are >in broad agreement are well understood, this is a matter of simple >fact. I gave a good reference (as you have); rather than jump up and >down and accuse you of insulting him, I will simply state that his >account agrees with others. > >Nor, by the way, did I accuse you of "chasing your own terms". I was >not intentionally condescending; it is simply an area I know well, and >can therefore comment on (as you have in areas that you know well). >Your knowledge on the Muslim treatment of the doctrine of the >Paraclete is vastly superior to mine; I corrected you on the narrow >subject of overall Christian belief. > >And there is no need to SHOUT so. Islam should indeed be adequate to >you; well and good. By all means continue posting. However, if you >misrepresent overall Christian doctrine, I will correct to the best of >my ability from what knowledge I have (as I am enjoined, to an extent, >to do). > > Dave Barton <*> > dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( > http://www.intermetrics.com/~dlb > ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:24:01 -0700 Subject: Re: Pictures anybody? Great page Dave, You are a very diverse type of guy. I too am a Babylon 5 fan. I like to draw parallels between the religions portrayed on this series and real world religions. I find myself wishing that the writers would probe these matters a little more deeply. :-) - -- Michael J. Moore David Barton wrote: > > I have no idea on God's green and lovely earth why someone would > subject themselves to my ugly phiz; however, those whose constitution > and sanity need the shock may apply to my web page below. > http://www.intermetrics.com/~dlb ------------------------------ From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:41:38 -0400 Subject: advocates for union [was Re: Paraclete #1 In a message dated 96-09-03 08:45:19 EDT, you write: > >LET NOT YOUR HEART BE TROUBLED, YOU BELIEVE IN GOD, BELIEVE ALSO IN ME.....I >GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU..... AND I WILL PRAY THE FATHER AND HE SHALL >GIVEYOU ANOTHER COMFORTER (Greek Parakleetos), THAT HEMAY ABIDE WITH YOU >FOREVER EVEN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH (John 14:1,16.17) > > This quotation is clearly split at the ...... The first part I can find at John 14:1, but I believe the second part is at John 16:7 and not at John 16:17. The Greek text I have uses the word para'kleetos (ee= long e)(accent on second a). It is rendered as comforter. In Liddell & Scott, the word is explained as being a verbal adjective from the verb parakale'oo (oo= long o), meaning called to one's aid, especially in a court of justice. Latin advocatus; as a substantive (noun), an advocate. generally, a helper. in NT Helper, Comforter. I sense that all of the energy being put into this sort of question is based on the supposition that later means better. to all searching for the Source, for being in non-dualistic peace (wajd) with Allah and toward all of Allah's creation, in peace, Jinavamsa ------------------------------ From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 12:41:40 -0400 Subject: Re: Song of Songs (short) [was Re: Paraclete #1 (long) In a message dated 96-09-03 10:21:02 EDT, you write: > >Salam.Love you for your reply.Please give me time to collect my materials. >At 14:50 9/2/96 -0400, you wrote: >>hello Zainuddin and all, >> I await with patience, in peace and love, Jinavamsa ------------------------------ From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:07:03 -0400 Subject: Re: Pictures anybody? Michael J. Moore writes: You are a very diverse type of guy. I too am a Babylon 5 fan. I like to draw parallels between the religions portrayed on this series and real world religions. I find myself wishing that the writers would probe these matters a little more deeply. :-) Interestingly, for the purposes of this group and our recent discussion on atheists, the creator and primary writer for the show, J. Michael Straczynski, is a confirmed atheist. That he is able to write so convincingly on such subjects is worthy of some thought. Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( http://www.intermetrics.com/~dlb ------------------------------ From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:08:50 -0400 Subject: re: Paraclete #1 (long) Salamu 'alaikum brother.I thank you for your reply.We all love Jesus and I hope that one day will come that we all including non-Muslims can say that we all love Muhammad s.a.w who would not have written as I have written -in a unconsciously reactionary manner.Now I realise that using Capital Letters can mean shouting and not just emphasising.Sorry a million times.I think at the appropriate time I will give the full information concerning Bishop Benjamin Keldani who lived more than a hundred years ago and whose book was published and republished all over the Muslim world.Yes u used descriptive language and not emotional language.You are right . And peace to you, my brother. I hope you will continue posting on this subject; I find it enlightening, and (as I said) the Muslim view of Christian doctrines, including the Paraclete, is fascinating. I have little knowledge in this area. Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( http://www.intermetrics.com/~dlb ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #121 *****************************