From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Mon Sep 23 21:08:04 1996 Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 20:45:52 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #146 tariqas-digest Wednesday, 18 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 146 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Abdin Chande Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:44:49 -0400 Subject: Re: Desire -Reply Prohibition of sex in Islam Sex with one's wife, apart from that mentioned by bro Zainuddin, is also prohibited during the eve of the 2 days of Eid (AidilAdha and AidilFitr). Apart from full moon, sex is prohibited in the eve of 1st month and end of month in the Hijr calendar. The reasons for this is because these are the times Satan chooses to have sex. Regards, \ Noordin ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Salaams! I am curious to know the source of this information. I take it you obtained this from some hadith or fiqh book? It would be helpful to provide some references and Muslim scholars comments on the status of the above. A.C. ------------------------------ From: pathway@dnet.net (John Womack) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:49:12 -0500 Subject: North American Indian infulences The growth of the soul is often interpreted by the restless mind of mankind in the light of those things that the mind thinks it understands; often therefore, by the level of its involvement in the material world. Those who have seen the world revealed as a desert, often see the soul as being basically barren but graced with precious hidden places of eternal water and blessed shade, and the spirit as a relentless burning, blazing, unbearable glory that is often similiar to pain. Those who saw the world revealed in the early North American forests and plains (before the Europeans arrived), reported that the soul was bountiful, full of endless and varied blessings, and the spirit was a giving force, full of love and endless engergy, and that the Great Spirit was found in many forms and in every place. Those who saw the world revealed in Europe and early United States settlements often saw the world as a wild and unruly place, full of dangerous and harmful things, a carelessly planted child of the devil, willful and demonic, a spirit that was dependent upon man's discipline and obedience; dependent upon the scourging and forceful control of those many evil things and requiring a sacrificial dedication to impose order. Jerry Coleman, a leading participant in the return of the Cherokees to seek their spiritual heritage, who lives in the Snowbird Mountains, says that he beleives that as many as 26,000,000 Americans may carry some "Indian blood" in their ancestral heritage. That would be aproximately 1/10 of all Americans. Add to that the heritage of African-Americans, and Hispanic-Americans, many of whom share that familial connection with the mother planet, and it can be wondered if a great force is slowly rising in our country, one that might someday lead all its people back across the trail of tears into a new (old) spiritual understanding with the Great Spirit who loved the world so much that the spirit blessed that wonderful place with us. John. ------------------------------ From: an525@lafn.org (Ivan Ickovits) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 06:42:58 -0700 Subject: Re: prayer Greetings Nur: Judaism is currently reclaiming many of the rites and practices that have been done in the past. Case in point, many of the prayers included verbal reference to bowing and prostrations, but because other traditions- Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. had taken on these practices, Jewish custom was to refrain from doing full prostrations called hakaphot in Hebrew. Now there is an inclusion of the prostrations for some orthodox, conservative, eclectic, ecstatic denominations during the high holy days and the days of Succot/Shmini Atzeret - dwelling in temporary housings with thatched roofs etc. and it appears that this practice may return as a regular part of Jewish prayers. Jewish prayers are set for three times a day in congruence to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, although there are additional special prayers set aside for midnight and for early AM for those so spiritually inclined. B'salam/Shalom Raqib > >Brother Maroof, > >The Christian monks (after the mid 4th century) in the region of Amid in = >middle Syria (the same region Mohammed PBUH was suppose to have traveled = >with his uncle) are recorded as performing prayers five times a day at = >the same hours as the Islamic salat. But they faced east in typical = >Syrian Christian fashion. (according to a manuscript by John of Ephesus = >in Arthur Voobus, History of Asceticism in the Syrian Orient II, Corpus = >Scriptorum Christianorum Orientalum, vol. 197, Louvain, 1960). According = >to Voobus, this is the only region where he knows of prayers being = >performed 5 times a day instead of 3 as elsewhere in Syria, Palestine, = >and Egypt. The monks putting their knees on the ground in prayer was = >called *burke*or *selawata* in Syriac, the the prostration that followed = >was called *metuniia*. According to the Syrian father Philoxenos of = >Mabbug (early 6th century), the prostrations were to be performed 40 = >times. > >Blessings, > >Nur > > > > > > - -- <<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>><<>> ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:59:10 EDT Subject: Re: North American Indian infulences Hello friends, :) John wrote: [...] >, many of whom share that familial >connection with the mother planet, and it can be wondered if a great force >is slowly rising in our country, one that might someday lead all its people >back across the trail of tears into a new (old) spiritual understanding >with the Great Spirit who loved the world so much that the spirit blessed >that wonderful place with us. John. The return of the Buffalo... The Ghost Dance... This Spirit never died. It lives on.... Eternal. thanks for your beautiful words, John. I don't know what 'might be' ... but i /feel/ deep within me, NOW... this... return. mitaquye oyasin. (all my relations...) much love, yondanoota ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:18:02 -0700 Subject: Re: Transliteration/translation Asim Jalis wrote: > --snip-- > I think it is > appropriate to mention that a translator is Jewish. I mean if I have a copy > of the Quran that has been translated by an atheist, then that is something > I would like to know. --snip-- > Asim Why? - -- Michael J. Moore ------------------------------ From: Craig Johannsen Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:49:50 -0700 Subject: Re: Desire -Reply There must be some sybolic significance to the phrase "times Satan chooses to have sex". Surely this has no literal meaning -- do angels have sex? Yes, I saw the film Rosemary's Baby, but that was just fiction, wasn't it? Salaams, Craig ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:39:20 -0700 Subject: Re: Desire -Reply Craig Johannsen wrote: > > There must be some sybolic significance to the phrase > "times Satan chooses to have sex". > > Surely this has no literal meaning -- do angels have sex? > > Yes, I saw the film Rosemary's Baby, but that was just fiction, > wasn't it? > > Salaams, > Craig I can testify that they do as I am married to one. - -- Michael J. Moore ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:33:39 -0700 Subject: Re: The Problem of Suffering Hello, Abdin Chande! Seeing that no one has taken the bait, I'll try my hand at one answer to "The Problem of Suffering". The questions you ask have ready answers for those truly seeking, seeking long enough. Let's only tackle your item c) below, as it seems the one that might bear the most fruit. > c) the working out of nature which is morally blind and does not > distinguish between good and bad when dishing out calamities (this > is, for instance, the view advanced in rabbi Kushner's book "When bad > Things happen to good people")... The "laws of nature" are morally blind. These laws establish the limits of materiality and movement. Life is simply matter moving in relationship to other matter. Let's accept these as our theory and the basis for further discussion. Okay? Now these laws permit life, and life has mamy, many levels. These levels determine what might be called degrees of consciousness of matter that make up materiality. At the level of humanity on earth we see that we have the power of choose in what we do. Some point can be made that up to half of what we do now is determined by what we did in the past. That is our choices presently are colored by our experiences. What gives us the power to make choices, i.e., appear to have what is popularly called "free will"? Each level of materiality, i.e., the created world, affects each other level. Nothing can be separated. Substance, matter has density of varying magnitudes. At the higher levels of consciousness this density is very low; at level of earth, middle to high; and at still lower levels, very dense, or even stillness. (Many images should come to mind as you envision to what these words point.) At levels of other than humanity creation is compelled to follow laws of nature. Some call these Laws of God, others Ray of Creation. These laws, thank Allah, have really never been given names. So, our choices have put us into the condition we find ourselves. Our thoughts, our words, and our deeds have produced here on earth something quite different than would have been produced if every element of manifestation followed exactly "The Laws". The environ we humans have created is of our own doings. We each are responsible for our part. Our part effects other humans, as well as animals, plants, and minerals, here and within our solar systems. Down to the short strokes (I trust)... each of us started life when "creator", coming from a will unknown, established the foundations of the create. (Of the non-create I have no knowledge, no experience.) So our spirits are individualized aspects of the creator's will, spirit, and have always existed as Absolute, as infinity. (We accept there is one infinity and that can be called God, Allah, Great Mysterious, is all and contains all.) What we have each thought and done over all time is reflected in what happens today, as a collective. Our suffering is determined by our past "wrong" choices and the reaction is in our "bones", part of the Law of Causality, Law of Three). What we each do has never been done isolated from our environment. When we each follow The Law, i.e, align our wills (individualized spirits, aspects of infinity) with that of the fate determined by Law, we will have fulfilled our destiny. We will have "right" thoughts, right words, and right deeds, and there will be no sickness, no pain, just bliss, Jesus' heaven on earth. As an after thought, consider the word "suffer". An ancient meaning of it is "to allow". We permit our suffering, in the collective as well as a person, because of our deeds, caused by our words and our thoughts. Right thoughts and we are in heaven; now, not in some afterlife. What we can understand is that we each are part of the whole and determine the quality of that whole. So if everyone of us did no hurt to our fellows heaven would be established now here on earth. Enough... let others pick of the pieces and the task. I hope what is said here has been useful, this I pray, according to Will of Absolute. Peace and love, tanzen ------------------------------ From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:29:14 -0400 Subject: Re: sex in full moon In a message dated 96-09-18 00:06:47 EDT, you write: >Sex is not only prohibited during full moon. It is also prohibited during >the 1st , middle and last day (full moon) in the Muslim Hijr calendar. >The reason for this is because these are the times when Satan have their >sex. It is also haram to have sex on the eves of Eidil Adha and Eidil Fitr. >Regards, >Noordin hello Noordin and all, speaking/writing here in what is either the daughter of all, granddaughter of all, richest and most wondrous of all, or most filthy bastard child of all languages, English (honor to this and other languages), let me say this: An interesting concept, this idea of Satan and sex. I do not believe that I was ever personally involved in satanic sex (at least this lifetime, at least insofar as I can remember), but then again, I am not exactly sure what that would even amount to (British-like understatement). What I am esp. wondering here is what such a presumably evil form of sex (in some sense or other of the term "evil") has to do with anyone else? I mean in a way that suggests that we shouldn't do what otherwise would be morally neutral or beneficial to do. And as someone pointed out, there is still the question of how we came to "learn" that this is a practice of Satan. How does one learn of such? I love abstraction and abstract or theoretical thinking, but this one is a bit difficult to connect with *anything* in experience for me. please teach well here. in peace, Jinavamsa ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:07:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: The Problem of Suffering Assalamu alaikum. On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Abdin Chande wrote: > Salaams to all! > > I wonder if anyone would be willing to share their insights on the > problem of suffering in the world from any religious or philosophical > standpoint/tradition, including Islam/sufism, Judaism, Christianity, > Hinduism, Budhism etc. Here are some of the questions that may guide > your response: is suffering a) a consequence of sins; > b) a test from God to strengthen faith (e.g. the story of Job); c) > the working out of nature which is morally blind and does not > distinguish between good and bad when dishing out calamities (this > is, for instance, the view advanced in rabbi Kushner's book "When bad > Things happen to good people"); d) the product of capitalism which > leads to the problem of alienation (Karl Marx)--and other secular > viewpoints informed by Freudianism, existentialism, utilitarianism > etc What about ethnic suffering--North & South American Indians, > Aborigines in Australia, Blacks in the U.S. etc--what is the meaning > of their suffering? Critics of religion argue that if God is > Good/merciful/in control etc why is evil/ atrocities allowed to take > place? Liberation theologians have wrestled with these thorny > questions (the conservativism of the Catholic church/establishment > notwithstanding). Why are some children born deformed, or people > (some rather than others) struck down by cancer, liver disease, > depression etc? Why is the restoration of justice promised in the > afterlife and not in this life? These are some of the questions as > well as objections that are usually raised when the problem of > suffering is discussed. I would like to suggest two additional possibilities: e) Suffering is only suffering when we are attached to it (Buddhism) f) Suffering, pain etc. are helpful in pointing out things that are wrong, so that we can do something about it (like LEARNING). As far as I can tell, this is the basic function of "pain," from one-celled organisms (which may avoid pressure, intense heat etc., so that they can continue to be around and reproduce) to humanity (which, if we don't learn necessary lessons from holocausts, disasters, poverty, inequality, disease, war, injustice, slavery, starvation, etc. etc. etc., will either keep getting these same unpleasant lessons till we DO learn, or kill ourselves before we "graduate"). Yours, Habib ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:07:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Most Beautiful Names - (10) Al-Jabbaar (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:25:44 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [Bryan Conn ] >From habib@world.std.com Tue Sep 17 21:25:42 1996 Return-Path: Received: from alpha.wright.edu by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id VAA27423; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:25:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pool012.Max9.Indianapolis.IN.DYNIP.ALTER.NET by alpha.wright.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/19Sep95-0858AM) id AA15995; Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:25:19 -0400 Message-Id: <323F4FA5.7F2@paladin.wright.edu> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:25:57 -0400 From: Bryan Conn X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Tariqas Subject: The Most Beautiful Names - (10) Al-Jabbaar Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Assalaamu Alaikum The following is from "The Most Beautiful Names" compiled by Sheik Tosun Bayrak, published by Threshold Books - Amana Books. ________________________________________________________________________ Bismillah ir-Rahmaan ir-Raheem In the name of Allah, the Beneficient, the Merciful ________________________________________________________________________ _ Al-Jabbar He is the Repairer of the broken, the Completer of the lacking, the one who can enforce His will without any opposition. _ _ Hz.'Ali (May Allah be pleased with him) used to pray, Ya Jabbira kulli _ _ _ _ kasirin wa ya musahilla kulli 'asirin -- "O Jabbar, the one who puts together all that is broken and the one who brings ease to every difficulty." At the same time He is the one who is able to enforce His will at all times and places without any opposition. This forcefulness makes submission a necessity. His forcefulness is within the destiny of all His creation. The sun cannot say, "I will not rise again." The wind cannot say, "I will not blow again." Yet man is given the choice. _ One finds al-Jabbar by knowing that the only place to go to repair one's broken hopes, to find peace in the confusion which one finds oneself, is to Allah. ________________________________________________________________________ Enjoy! And Allah keep you safe from set backs! Salaam, bryan - -- Birdsong brings relief to my longing. I am just as ecstatic as they are, but with nothing to say! Please, universal soul, practice some song, or something, through me! - Rumi via Coleman Barks ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:13:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: suffering (fwd) To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com From: Hamid Missoumi Subject: Suffering There is a story of children playing in the street and finding a bag of sweets. Quite unusually, the child who found the bag - and was holding to it - agreed to share the find. In the circle they formed, he started: you get 2, you nothing, you 5, etc... Obviously, this was not a fair split. The children argued for a while, and finally decided to refer the matter to the first ADULT who would come be, for HE surely would be more fair! Came Nasruddin... The children explained their dilemna, and Nasruddin agreed and put this condition: Would you agree to my decision, i.e. that I split things my way, OR would you rather have me do it GOD's way ? The children did not think too long - knowing Nasruddin's odd ways - and all agreed to GOD's WAY. So Nasruddin went in the circle they formed: you get 2, you nothing, you 5, etc... That was too much for the children who got really mad at Nasruddin... He explained however: You asked for this - God's way; look around you - that is how thing are for everything in this world: HAD YOU ASKED ME TO DO IT MY WAY, I WOULD HAVE SURELY GIVEN EACH 3 EXACTLY!!! Liberty, Equality, Fraternity, etc... are all OUR way, wishful thinking, a dream. But we will continue to ask WHY? Why Not ? ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:13:05 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Transliteration/translation On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Simon Bryquer wrote: > I am pointing this out to you, because I feel you not quite aware that > you even have these prejudices, seeing yourself as an objective student > of the Muslim faith -- but take my word, you have them, just look at them > instead of reactively becoming defensive. Assalamu alaikum, Many people living in Asian countries, for example, have never met any Jews (or Africans, or African-Americans, for that matter), which would tend to influence their view... Allah knows best. Is there really an "objective" view anyhow? I personally don't think such a thing really exists. I was speaking to a friend here (I live in Melbourne, Australia) a couple of days ago, who is from a Vietnamese background (her parents are Vietnamese but she was raised in Australia). She mentioned how, once when she went with her school on a trip to the Australian countryside, they stopped at a store to get refreshments. As she was buying her drink, she felt the people there were staring at her, and she felt very uncomfortable.... she thinks it was maybe because they hadn't even seen someone with an Asian background before, so, to them, she was strange and unusual. These things can work both ways.... People are often afraid of the unknown. Wassalam, Fariduddien ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:18:17 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Transliteration/translation Assalamu alaikum, On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Simon Bryquer wrote: > Salaams to one and all------- > > It's not the mere mention that the translator is Jewish -- but how it is > mentioned. If you believe how you use words are of no consequence -- > keep in mind that every misunderstanding, war and etc began with words. > And also in the beginning there was the WORD -- even in Islam: With all due respect, Simon, I agree with Asim that you seem to be a bit over-sensitive.... you are reading a heck of a lot of intention into words which, to me, doesn't seem to necessarily be there.... > REPEAT > > But then again you might share the same affinities as Zainuddin and > then, of course I understand your sentiments. Translation: disagree with my interpretation, and you can't win, because I will accuse you of being prejudiced too. > Then again they're not my prejudices and I don't have to live them. > So that closes this subject. See last comment. Peace, Fariduddien ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 09:32:06 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Transliteration/translation On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Michael J. Moore wrote: > Asim Jalis wrote: > > --snip-- > > I think it is > > appropriate to mention that a translator is Jewish. I mean if I have a copy > > of the Quran that has been translated by an atheist, then that is something > > I would like to know. --snip-- > > Asim > Why? Assalamu alaikum, I'm not Asim, but to me it seems relevent because I don't believe that "objectivity" truly exists... everyone interprets things in the light of his/her own experiences and knowledge. It would help to know something about a person's own experiences and knowledge and attitudes to get some idea of how they approach and interpret a text. With a religious text, you are (obviously) going to get a different interpretation from a Muslim as from a religious Christian, Jew, Hindu, etc. Heck, even among Muslims from different schools of thought you get different interpretations of some verses, so this just makes sense.... Every translation is an interpretation.... There is no such thing as an "objective" translation, IMHO.... To take a simple example, take 3rd/4th verse of al-Fatihah.... translating it as "Master of the Day of Doom," "Master of the Day of Judgement," or "Master of the Day of Religion" may reflect different emphases, which is a form of interpretation.... To take another example, in the Qur'an you might find the term "the hand of Allah"... someone who believed this literally, that Allah literally has a "hand," might translate it this way, as "the hand of Allah." Someone else, who interprets it metaphorically, might choose to translate it another way, like "Allah's help" for instance.... Peace, Fariduddien ------------------------------ From: James McCaig Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:54:34 -0400 Subject: Re: sex in full moon At 05:29 PM 9/18/96 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 96-09-18 00:06:47 EDT, you write: > >>Sex is not only prohibited during full moon. It is also prohibited during >>the 1st , middle and last day (full moon) in the Muslim Hijr calendar. >>The reason for this is because these are the times when Satan have their >>sex. It is also haram to have sex on the eves of Eidil Adha and Eidil Fitr. Are we to understand that Satan exists against the wishes of Allah? Shall we abandon the idea of La ella ha Il Allah Hu ?????? Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net ------------------------------ From: ASHA101@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 20:45:41 -0400 Subject: to Jinavasma re: sex in full moon Dear Jinavamasa, re:the strange bit about sayten, the full moon and sex prohibitions. you wrote: >>>this one is a bit difficult to connect with *anything* in experience for me.<<<<<<< I was just reading along and saw something that might be relevant. The subject was (partly) the Alam-al-Mithal, the Realm of the Creative Imagination, which is a plane of consciousness. That is not to explain what this notion full moon and saytan means but that such statements have ther meaning couched in refrences that require a knowledge of the palace of mirrors ... Anyway, the following was from a speach by Zia khan ... "...according to Pir-o-Murshid Inayat Khan, when the organized religions speak of the punishments of hell and the rewards of paradise, it is a reference to this world (Alam-al-Mithal), where everything has its counterpart. Every physical act, every thought, has a form, a subtle form which corresponds to it and arises out of it. Every form in this world, every movement, every gesture, everything which comes out of volition sends ripples into that world and creates that world, because that world was not created except by us. Which is why it is referred to as the "plane of creative imagination." .... - - Asha ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #146 *****************************