From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Mon Sep 23 21:09:09 1996 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 06:09:07 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #150 tariqas-digest Saturday, 21 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 150 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Aaron McEmrys Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:39:23 -0700 Subject: Re: Satan Asim Jalis wrote: > > Observing the thread on Satan and sex: It's interesting that most people > (myself included) can entertain the idea of God as a real entity, but > consider Satan to be a metaphor. Perhaps this is a result of ideas from > psychology which explain evil in terms of the subconsciousness and thus > make Satan obsolete. Also belief in Satan is not a part of most religious > creeds so his abrupt removal from the stage of human consciousness never > became quite as controversial as assertions about God not existing. > > Asim My mother was a big believer in Satan when I was young. When I was run over by a car and it appeared I might die without having accepted her brand of Jesus as my personal messiah, she began to see Satan as a metaphor. When I was on the mend, he became real again. Now she doesn't know what she believes, but she reads lots of books my sister (an atheist) lends her - and thinks about what she reads when she has the energy. love, Aaron ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:03:01 +0100 Subject: Changes and Transitions Until recently I have not had any desire to be a part of any organized religion, but feel drawn to a church, right now the Catholic church. My initiator says that sufi's can be of any religion. Most of my life has been in protestant lines, then the sufi order. I think i am open because i see us all as brothers and sister with some variations in styles. But this is a a strange turn of events to me. Any guidance or support would be appreciated because I am in a slightly vulnerable position of this time. I guess my question is can the sufi thing be compatible to being a catholic. I am just investigating at this time but wish mostly to find a career in spiritual service. Kaffea lalla ------------------------------ From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 20:13:52 -0400 Subject: Re: sex in full moon In a message dated 96-09-20 18:56:11 EDT, you write: > >This idea of 'love making'; I don't get it? You see, I have some >strong emotions about my wife. I call these emotions love. We have >sex. I do not 'love' her *more* while having it, so how could one call >it making love? >- >Michael J. Moore > > hello Michael and Carol and all, perhaps there are differences between 1. having sex 2. making love 3. making your wife Well, this is perhaps light-handed, too playful. So, let me try again: To some, the idea of making love vs. having sex is talking about the psychological or spiritual aspect of the process. (not a matter of putting part A in slot B and rubbing until completion, but an experience of connectedness with the beyond-all-concepts). The creation of the experience of love (love: sometimes referred to as God/Allah, as in some Sufi teachings) is something that can occur with one's spouse. Perhaps that will involve a deeper sense of the love between the two, perhaps not. That part depends a lot on what is going on between the two, whether there are conflicts or arguments or issues unresolved, whether these can be put aside, whether there is a sense of true intimacy, gentleness, and appreciation for the sacredness of this physicality-transformed-into-the-ineffible-beauty, etc. etc. just a thought. in peace, Jinavamsa ------------------------------ From: Craig Johannsen Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 18:15:29 -0700 Subject: Re: Changes and Transitions Hi Kaffea, I don't really know much about Catholicism, but I think that that, without having been influenced by Sufism in southern Sicily and elsewhere, Catholicism would never have had monks, nuns, monasteries, saints, rosary beads, and many other of its outward features. Since there is some much obvious external influence, I would suspect one would find a similar amount of influence on its inner traditions. Saint Francis is supposed to have been knowledgable of Sufi practises. Would someone better informed than me like to comment on the above -- especially on any additional influences or specific traditions they know of? Wa salaam, Craig ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:44:21 -0700 Subject: Re: Changes and Transitions Brother Craig wrote:=20 > I don't really know much about Catholicism, but > I think that that, without having been influenced > by Sufism in southern Sicily and elsewhere, Catholicism > would never have had monks, nuns, monasteries, saints, > rosary beads, and many other of its outward features. > Since there is some much obvious external influence, > I would suspect one would find a similar amount of influence > on its inner traditions. > Saint Francis is supposed to have been knowledgable of > Sufi practises. > Would someone better informed than me like to comment > on the above -- especially on any additional influences > or specific traditions they know of? i'm uncertain where this theme started (trying to follow earlier = posts)... the post referring to Idries Shah possibly? Personally, i = have always felt compelled to take Idries Shah's statements regarding = Sufism's influence upon European Christianity with a grain of salt. This = is not a criticism of his views, but simply that he almost never = provides any primary sources to support his statements, and consequently = there is no way to cross-reference. The reference to Francis of Assisi supposedly returning to Rome in a = patched frock or kirqa, which has led some to believe he became a Sufi = initiate, is really no more than a second-hand story that he returned to = Rome in a patched frock and nothing more. On the other hand, i can = provide primary sources to show that the investiture of a patched frock = as a sign of spiritual attainment and transmission predates Islam. It is = found in Theodoret of Cyrrhus's History of the Monks of Syria (circ. = early 5th century), an autobiographical travel diary of Theodoret's = travels visiting the living saints and tombs in Syria (this text has = been translated by Cistercian Press in Kalamazoo, Michigan). Theodoret = himself records his receiving the mantle, sewn with patched rags, from a = hermit mystic named James of Cyrhus. He also mentions another solitary = village priest named Maesymas who with great care would sew rags onto = his cloak. The earliest reference to a patched mantle i have found is = that St. Ephraem Syrus, the great Christian poet mystic of the 4th = century, wore one. Also Ephraem and another Syrian Christian poet named = Babai describe the meaning of the patches almost in the identical = symbolism found much later in al-Hujwiri's account of a Sufi dervish's = dream of Jesus wearing a patched frock -- the meaning being that each = patch represents a pang of suffering. (ie., Kashf al Mahjud) Then also, = according to Arthur Voobus's multi-volume history of early Syrian = Christian spirituality, two eastern Syrian patriarchs, Philoxenos of = Mabbug and the mystic poet Jacob of Sarug, (both in early 6th century) = wore patched mantles as signs of their ecclesiastical authority. Since my research in Syrian Christianity is primarily pre-Islam, i do = not know whether the middle-eastern Christian investiture of a patched = frock continued into the middle-ages. Blessings to all, Nur Richard Gale ------------------------------ From: Simon Bryquer Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 01:11:10 -0700 Subject: Re: Changes and Transitions Salaams to you Nur------------ This is unrelated, but you might know> Has recent scholarship revealed or given more exact background on the author of _The Cloud of Unknowing_? If there's anything I'd appreciate knowing ---- Salaams Simon ================================================================== Gale wrote: > > Brother Craig wrote: > > > I don't really know much about Catholicism, but > > I think that that, without having been influenced > > by Sufism in southern Sicily and elsewhere, Catholicism > > would never have had monks, nuns, monasteries, saints, > > rosary beads, and many other of its outward features. > > Since there is some much obvious external influence, > > I would suspect one would find a similar amount of influence > > on its inner traditions. > > > Saint Francis is supposed to have been knowledgable of > > Sufi practises. > > > Would someone better informed than me like to comment > > on the above -- especially on any additional influences > > or specific traditions they know of? > > i'm uncertain where this theme started (trying to follow earlier posts)... the post referring to Idries Shah possibly? Personally, i have always felt compelle > > The reference to Francis of Assisi supposedly returning to Rome in a patched frock or kirqa, which has led some to believe he became a Sufi initiate, is really > > Since my research in Syrian Christianity is primarily pre-Islam, i do not know whether the middle-eastern Christian investiture of a patched frock continued in > > Blessings to all, > > Nur Richard Gale ------------------------------ From: padenski@juno.com (Ruthie Roberts) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 22:29:48 PST Subject: Re: sex in full moon On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:53:34 -0700 "Michael J. Moore" > >This idea of 'love making'; I don't get it? You see, I have some >strong emotions about my wife. I call these emotions love. We have >sex. I do not 'love' her *more* while having it, so how could one call >it making love? >- >Michael J. Moore > IMHO, when two people love each other they show their feelings by touch, the spoken and unspoken word, by the melding of two souls that are united into a beautiful experience. Anyone can have sex, which can be meaningless, thereby resulting in lust. ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 13:57:26 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Transliteration/translation Salam.When we realise that the severe communal or racist values and attitudes became entrenched in the culture and popular religion of a particular community and when we compare the same to the situation in Singapore and Malaysia , we realise that relatively speaking this region is a multi-racial paradise.Government policies are done by an elite who may not necessarily represent the values of the masses despite elections so we have bumiputraism to redress the economic imbalance suffered by the indigenous people and the failure to admit Muslims into Singapore's National Service in the period immediately after Singapore was booted out of Malaysia because of the perceived "dual loyalty" of the Muslims. But as far as popular religion and popular culture is concerned racism and communalism did not reflect them unlike for example popular works such as Mein Kampf by Hitler and the powerfully written and popularly received anti-Jewish works of Luther for example.After hundreds of years of hardened hatred the result is the concentration camp.The same thing is happening in Bosnia and Kosova and Bulgaria and Western Thrace. Such hatred cannot be washed away by the blood of any sacrificial "lamb" .In my humble opinion it only underlines and exarcebates sinfulness.This is just my psychological assessment. At 07:06 9/21/96 +0800, you wrote: >I am thinking about the masses not about policies which are rationalised by >governments and which in their opinion serve a certain purpose.That is >another subject.The riots were simply the result of manipulation by >politicians during elections which were taken advantage of by gangsters and >political elements.The masses on their own do not have such agenda . >At 08:03 9/21/96 +1000, you wrote: >> >>Assalamu alaikum, >> >>On Sat, 21 Sep 1996, Zainuddin Ismail wrote: >> >>> Salam to you Simon. >>> This area including Malaysia and Singapore is remarkably free of deep seated >>> racial prejudices.Pogroms and holocausts , local equivalents of extreme >>> forms of Zionism or Arabism even male chauvinism or feminism hardly finds >>> any place in this area.The news that the locals drove Viet refugees into the >>> sea or that Malays lived in trees are as absurd as the view that Singapore >>> is in China. >> >>This is not really my understanding.... to my understanding, Malaysia has >>programs which favour Malays over Chinese in tertiary education, if I >>am not mistaken (though perhaps this can be interpreted as a form of >>"positive discrimination" or whatever it's called, I don't know). >>Similarly, I've heard things like in Singapore, in the compulsory >>national service (i.e. joining the army), ethnic Chinese have a greater >>likelihood to be made officers than ethnic Malays. Isn't this right? >>If these things are true, I wouldn't say the region is "remarkably >>free of racial prejudices" .... Then there were the Malaysian race riots >>(?) in the 1960s.... yes? >> >>[....reading further....] >> >>oh, you mean free of anti-Jewish prejudice.... >>I don't know anything about that in particular.... >> >>Peace, >> >>Fariduddien >> >> > > ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 14:07:11 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Desire Salam.Sometime ago I learned of a Sufi practice called The Witness.This involves observing one's thoughts and emotions -in a sense registering them - - as part of one's routine for eg on the bus , in a crowd , during prayer, in the toilet, on the bed and so on and so forth.Ultimately this practice of Self Witness becomes very ingrained and one wonders who is this Witness watching one's self.The process can be difficult because it makes us very self-conscious in the negative sense of the word, our negative emotions become aggravated particularly when we think that other people are watching us.Watch your own body language, your postures , the aura of your face, although one does not have to go as far as using bio-feedback machines. It is only later that we move from negative self-consciousness to self-control with the help of Dhikr and Fikr. Through this process we learn about what other people are going through.We can see the signs which appeared in us before."I know you are foolish because I was once foolish ...." Not recommended for those with depression or psychiatric disorders. At 09:48 9/20/96 -0700, you wrote: >Ryan wrote: >> >> > >> >Okay, this is a question for people here: how do you keep your mind in >> >control when you are on the street or on a bus? Dhikr? Anything else? >> > >> > >> >Asim >> >> This statement makes me wonder if controling sexual thoughts is really what >> one should do? I'm nineteen and have enough trouble just controling my >> sexual actions. Controling sexual thoughts! I'm sorry I just can't >> comprehend such a thing. Maybe a spiritual authority could tell us which >> one we should control: sexual thoughts or actions. >> >> thanks, Ryan >Hello Ryan, >We must not confuse controling thoughts with preventing thoughts. To >begin >to learn to control thoughts involves a technique called observation. >I am using 'observation' as a technical term. Learn to first Observe >your >thoughts. Create in your head, two selves, the 'observing self' and the >your thinking self. But rather than describe in detail this technique, >I will tell you it is from the teachings of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky. >They >got the teaching from the sufis and re-packaged it to be more acceptable >to the analytical western mind (IMHO). If you are interested enough >to read a book, let me know and I'll dig up a title. > >Anyway, once you learn how to observe your thoughts, this will give >you some control. You will be able to decide if that thought is useful >and if you want to 'go with that thought' or 'let that thought pass'. >Most people are 'being their thoughts'. A man says 'I am angry' before >he learns how to observe; after, he says 'I am having an angry thought'. > >Now do not underestimate the difficulty in establishing this 'internal >observer'. It can take years to make it permentant because it is so >very easy to get sucked into our thoughts and identify with them. > >I have not even spoken about the technique of creating this observer and >without the technique, it is almost impossible to do. But this ommision >on my part is deliberate because I don't want to give the false >impression >that I am actually giving you enough information to do anything and >because >my explanation could never be as thorough and G&O's. > >I only want you to know that there is a Way to control thoughts but >it requires a lot of Work. > >Actions will follow from our level of attachment to our thoughts. If >we are strongly attached, then our thought will order us around like >a master to a slave. If we are detached from our thoughts then we >can see which are comming from shaytun and which from allah(swt) >and act accordingly. > >-Michael- > ------------------------------ From: Imaan Joshi Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 14:19:07 +0800 Subject: Re: sex in full moon At 22:29 20/09/96 PST, you wrote: > >On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:53:34 -0700 "Michael J. Moore" > >>This idea of 'love making'; I don't get it? You see, I have some >>strong emotions about my wife. I call these emotions love. We have >>sex. I do not 'love' her *more* while having it, so how could one call >>it making love? >>- >>Michael J. Moore >> > >IMHO, when two people love each other they show their feelings by touch, >the spoken and unspoken word, by the melding of two souls that are >united into a beautiful experience. Anyone can have sex, which can be >meaningless, thereby resulting in lust. > as salaamu 'alaikum May I add in my two cents' worth?:-) I am a student, and do not have a husband, but I do have many girlfriends who, along with me, prefer to use...euphemisms, if you will, to refer to such things; I remember a friend who was talking to a male friend and who melted when he used the words "make love"...I think, and I do not wish to speak for all women in general, but women tend to be more sensitive to such things, for some reason; it adds to the whole...picture; he is making love with you, it is more than just sex, more than just intercourse...of course perhaps part of it also has to do with [ and I speak from experience here of having had male friends who speak this way] not being referred to as just an object to be used. So perhaps when a man uses nice words, one might hope that he has good thought about the experience too:-), that it is *more* than just *sex*. A bit naive, I know, but...a girl can hope, can't she:-)? > > Imaan Shivani Joshi sci30342@leonis.nus.sg He who painted you all by Himself will not leave you alone in your mad desire. [Jalaluddin Rumi] ------------------------------ From: "Khalil S. Ohlander" Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 01:24:55 Subject: Re: 'Attar on Stage! I'll let you know; Erik. >Perhaps when you go, you will notice if it is being video taped. >If so, would you please let us know how to obtain a tape? >Or any other information such as other cities where it >will be performed would be appreciated. > >I have a great desire to see it; guess I'll have to work >on that. ;-) >-- >Michael J. Moore > > ------------------------------ From: Asim Jalis Date: Sat, 21 Sep 96 02:17:09 CDT Subject: Re: sex in full moon I had an interesting experience a few days ago. I was walking home from the university. Imagine a clear day with no humidity and a perfect reddish sunset. And in this light I saw two white butterflies circling each other forming through their flight a double-helix. Some sort of a mating ritual I assumed. But the butterflies looked so identical that it was impossible to tell the male from the female. And then the two butterflies looked like just one butterfly mating in itself. Or rather the self in its interminable conversation with itself. This probably makes no sense. Asim ------------------------------ From: Imaan Joshi Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 18:04:52 +0800 Subject: Limits.. as salaamu 'alaikum:-) from "And the Sky is not the Limit" by Amatullah Armstrong. Re: the degree of sacrifice and struggle and endeavour required for one beginning his spiritual work/journey... "And shown them the two highways? But he has made no haste on the path that is steep."[ Al Qur'an 90:10,11] "What separates man from Divine Reality is the slightest of barriers: God is infinitely close to man, but man is infinitely far from God. This barrier is, for man, a mountain; he stands before a mountain whihc, he must remove with his own hands. He digs away the earth, in vain; the mountain remains. Man, hoewver goes on digging, in the name of God. And the mountain vanishes. It was never there." [Frithjof Schuon-- Stations of Wisdom.] "But then one day, after long travail the lover sees the Beloved. Moreover, he realises that he has alwasy seen Him, but he had not been aware that he was seeing Him. For everyone sees the Beloved, since only He exists. The the lover comprehends the Truth of Certainty and he is annihilated in the Beloved. and lover, Beloved and Love are one." [W.C Chittick-- Fakhruddin 'Iraqi: Divine Flashes.] The novice must aspire to the ascent, though he must remain alertly aware of the shortcomings that for the moment prevent this aspiration from being realised. [Martin Lings--What is Sufism?] %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Imaan Shivani Joshi sci30342@leonis.nus.sg He who painted you all by Himself will not leave you alone in your mad desire. [Jalaluddin Rumi] ------------------------------ From: Imaan Joshi Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 18:04:55 +0800 Subject: Rumi as salaamu 'alaikum Since God kept me free from filth, how is it proper that he should give me filthy companions? God's justice has given everyone a mate from his own kind: the elephant an elephant, the gnat a gnat... @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Something to think about; for me at least; sometimes I wonder what it is that draws me to a certain kind of people...perhaps, this is why; sometimes we wonder why we stay with someone despite the extreme difficulty of putting up with them...perhaps this is why:-) A friend I have always complains that she has never been blessed with good friends, good working partners, good...anything. She says saometimes she envies others who have good in these things. But perhaps it is because on observation, one can see that when she has something that is good, she fails to appreciate; she always wants more, more , more...we all do, at one point or another, actually. But I seem to have lost sight of my point:-) so I shall end here, Insh'Allah:-) wasalaam. Imaan Shivani Joshi sci30342@leonis.nus.sg He who painted you all by Himself will not leave you alone in your mad desire. [Jalaluddin Rumi] ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 18:08:35 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Desire Salam.Bibliotherapy is just one technique which I believe in.And as Muslims because of the Quranic "Read in the name of your Rabb (Cherisher,Nourisher and Sustainer)the technique becomes even more viable.Get a Tafsir of the Quran preferably Muhammad Asad's .First is the step of reading the Arabic with the help of the transliteration.Then reading the translation and the commentary of the learned scholar.Beyond any doubt this helps in the discipline of the mind. 2)Secondly is the practice of Self-Witness that I had delineated earlier. 3)Meditating on the Names of Allah which are being posted regularly through our net by one great Lover of Allah is really helpful.During my very long perhaps four years of "Dark Night of the Soul" reciting the Surah al Ikhlas, the salawat and the Names of Allah that I understood such as Al-Wadood (All Loving) As-Salam (Author of Peace) Ar-Ra'uf (He Who is Full of Pity);helped tremendously.The fact that Allah enabled me to get out of that period made me realise that he is the Ghafur the Forgiver who erases the efects of sins some of which are truly blasphemous. At 09:48 9/20/96 -0700, you wrote: >Ryan wrote: >> >> > >> >Okay, this is a question for people here: how do you keep your mind in >> >control when you are on the street or on a bus? Dhikr? Anything else? >> > >> > >> >Asim >> >> This statement makes me wonder if controling sexual thoughts is really what >> one should do? I'm nineteen and have enough trouble just controling my >> sexual actions. Controling sexual thoughts! I'm sorry I just can't >> comprehend such a thing. Maybe a spiritual authority could tell us which >> one we should control: sexual thoughts or actions. >> >> thanks, Ryan >Hello Ryan, >We must not confuse controling thoughts with preventing thoughts. To >begin >to learn to control thoughts involves a technique called observation. >I am using 'observation' as a technical term. Learn to first Observe >your >thoughts. Create in your head, two selves, the 'observing self' and the >your thinking self. But rather than describe in detail this technique, >I will tell you it is from the teachings of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky. >They >got the teaching from the sufis and re-packaged it to be more acceptable >to the analytical western mind (IMHO). If you are interested enough >to read a book, let me know and I'll dig up a title. > >Anyway, once you learn how to observe your thoughts, this will give >you some control. You will be able to decide if that thought is useful >and if you want to 'go with that thought' or 'let that thought pass'. >Most people are 'being their thoughts'. A man says 'I am angry' before >he learns how to observe; after, he says 'I am having an angry thought'. > >Now do not underestimate the difficulty in establishing this 'internal >observer'. It can take years to make it permentant because it is so >very easy to get sucked into our thoughts and identify with them. > >I have not even spoken about the technique of creating this observer and >without the technique, it is almost impossible to do. But this ommision >on my part is deliberate because I don't want to give the false >impression >that I am actually giving you enough information to do anything and >because >my explanation could never be as thorough and G&O's. > >I only want you to know that there is a Way to control thoughts but >it requires a lot of Work. > >Actions will follow from our level of attachment to our thoughts. If >we are strongly attached, then our thought will order us around like >a master to a slave. If we are detached from our thoughts then we >can see which are comming from shaytun and which from allah(swt) >and act accordingly. > >-Michael- > ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #150 *****************************