From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Mon Sep 23 21:10:52 1996 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 01:04:15 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #154 tariqas-digest Monday, 23 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 154 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Imaan Joshi Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 06:00:16 +0800 Subject: Re: Strange Story At 14:36 22/09/96 -0700, you wrote: >Hello, as salaamu 'alaikum :-) >How strange Imaan's story was to me. She and I are so very far >apart in our experience of this world. Imagine what it would be like >for me to step into her shoes for a while. A different sex, >different culture, different world view, values; no doubt >shock would drive me mad! as I probably would in your world:-) > >I recall learning about the caste system as a young man. and >say "This is rubbish and we are not going to do it!"' because originally it started out as a good thing; pple who segregated themselves did not do so on basis of intelligence but rather on aptitude; originally they simply allied themselves to the "caste" according to their career preferances: studying-brahmin, warriors,-kshtriyas, trade-vayshnavis[ I think] and misc- some name I forget. Originally, there was complete freedom of movement within these for the offspring of these pple; after a while, brahmin could only learn from a brahmin, and was looked up to; I have male cousins who are totaly apathetic to religion, who have never really prayed a day in their lives, who fetched good wives because of "who" they are...who are they? Just men surely? >For example prior to Islam I was involved in a Shamanic tradition. >We has sweat lodges. Men and women took off all of their clothes >and crammed into a small hut bodies touching bodies. I won't >go into the details of the ritual but will say that it was >absolutely non-sexual. >You can see then, where it is most difficult for me to understand >the mentality that covers up something as innocent as a woman >hair for fear that it may some how be provocative when I have >danced naked with women and felt nothing but the common >bond of our humanity and fraility in this vast creation. > but that is where the difference lies, perhaps; the world we live in is no longer like that; like I was telling my mom the other day, what is a naked body? Nothing at all; it is only because we sell it now, because we create ...we advertise it that it has become the huge seller that it has; we can watch a primitive [ let us not go into the "are they really primitive " issue] pple, walking around almost naked and feel nothing, but watch an adult movie and we get all sweaty and bothered, or watch..I don't know, pronography, and wow, everyone has to have sex...it is not the body itself, it is the everything else, and the illusions being created. It is sad that we live in a world where a woman has to make herself as plain as possible to avid unwanted attention; I have been harrassed sexually more times than I care to count, and I was not even "asking" for it; prior to my hijaab, it was almost an everday thing; after hijaab, it has been resuced greatly...I still get the occasional looks [ and I look terrible in hijaab], and was followed once or twice, but what else is a woman to do, living in a world that she lives in today? You don't have to be attractive any longer to get attention. Just show some skin, or even some attitude, and that is enuff. Imaan Shivani Joshi sci30342@leonis.nus.sg He who painted you all by Himself will not leave you alone in your mad desire. [Jalaluddin Rumi] ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 07:13:43 +0800 Subject: Re: Nazarenes Nur wrote: >As for the term masihi (pl. masihiyyun), Arabic transcription of the Greek christianoi, and derived from the name Christ, al-Masih, it was only used according to the Muslim writer al-Sam'ani (12th c.) by Christians among themselves. > Hello Nur, thanks for the background of the Nazarene. It seemed to me, they are a Jewish sect which believed Christ as son of God. The Quran although honour them (Nasara / Nazarene?) as People of the Book, specifically clarify to them that Jesus is messenger of God and not son of God. Jesus Christ or Isa Al-Masih: In a hadith narrated by Annawwas bin Sam'an, Prophet Muhammad (saw) said about the coming of Al-Masih son of Mary to counter Dajjal. So, the tem Al-Masih was also used in Prophets time. It might be a coincidence with what has been said about the early Christian base in Syria, because the Prophet said Al-Masih son of Mary will appear or make himself known publicly in a place south of Damascus. salam maarof ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 07:43:55 +0800 Subject: Re: Where Kahuna fit in? Thank tanzen for the info about Kahuna. During my visit to French Guyana early this year, the one thing that fascinates me is the large variety of palms in the northern part the Amazon jungle. I've read somewhere that the Amazon forest is much younger compared to the tropical rain forest of south-east Asia, and this might be true because I find less variety and less dense ferns compared to what we have here. But looking at the palms, and the forest, although it is almost like home, somehow spiritually I find it very different and strange. The feeling is almost as if they are different life forms. It makes me wonder whether that there's not only biological boundaries but also associated with it, spiritual boundaries on this planet. Kahuna (keeper of the secret)? It might have something to do wit it or might not. salam maarof ------------------------------ From: Hudoyo Hupudio Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 07:02:20 +0700 Subject: Re: Together sharing You >You are in my heart. You lead me many places, and even into churches, >synagogues, or mosques...or around a medicine wheel and in a Sufi Circle. >Your guidance is within. When I go here or there, I sometimes hear >People say do not, God is not there, that ritual is foolish, that is not >The way, that is false, and so many warnings are cried out. >Dear God, You are love. You lead and I follow you into all these places. >How many times I also have judged these humans of all their ways and teachings. >How wrong was i to decide the way anyone worships their Creator. How small has >Been my opionions of this or that. I am sure my Beloved Friend, that all who >live on the earth and commune with you in the sacred groves of the heart, are >Loved by you and have their life in You. >Kaffea Lalla Dear Kaffea, how beautiful! In the past I used to think, I am in You; Now I realize, You are in me; One day I hope to say, I and You are One. Hudoyo ------------------------------ From: Lilyan Kay Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 17:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Strange Story asalaam-u-aleikum Michael I am just wondering, how did you know that the women on the sidewalk were Muslims? Lily ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 20:25:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: to greet or not to greet women (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 00:51:13 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [Zainuddin Ismail ] >From habib@world.std.com Sun Sep 22 00:51:12 1996 Return-Path: Received: from stern.pacific.net.sg by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id AAA08383; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 00:51:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (max80ppp129.pacific.net.sg [203.120.80.129]) by stern.pacific.net.sg (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA13107 for ; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:50:42 +0800 (SGT) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:50:42 +0800 (SGT) Message-Id: <199609220450.MAA13107@stern.pacific.net.sg> X-Sender: sham@pacific.net.sg (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@europe.std.com From: Zainuddin Ismail Subject: Re: to greet or not to greet women Salam.Having a pleasant smile , a neighbourly smile for everybody helps to start others and oneself. Jarir told that the Prophet pbuh passed some women and gave them a salutation.Ahmad transmitted it. Qataada reported the Prophet as saying"When you enter a house salute its inmates and when yo8u come out and say farewell invoke a blessing of peace on them" Asma' daughter of Yazid said : God's messenger passed us by when we were with some women and gave us a salutation.(Abu Dawud, Ibn Majah and Darimi) "There is no good in sitting in roads except for one who guides people on their way , returns salutations,casts down his eyes and helps in loading animals " "When one of you comes to a group of people he should give a salutation and if he feels inclined to sit down he should do so ;then when he gets up he should give a salutation , for the former is not more of a duty than the latter" Unlike the Quran al Majeed , the Hadis literature is uncensored and have different levels of authenticity even in the six canonical works such as Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Majah, etc.It is better to read such Hadis subject it to the Quran , categorical facts of History or Science and one's own reason before spreading them because some seekers are easily depressed and affected by misreadings and distortions.When one comes to the Quran one common fallacy is to read it out of context. For example when it is stated in the Quran "Good women are those who are obedient" some people think that it relates to obedience to their husbands while it actually relates to Obedience to Allah .The word that is used for obedience in the Quran is "ta'at" and both men and women must be ta'at to Allah.Furthermore when the Quran states "that men are the qawwam of women " some people automatically interpret that it means that men have authority over women in society although the context of the verse very clearly relates to the family situation and even then it does not mean authority but providing physical protection and other services which women in that period of society were not exposed to such as business life.Even then there are conditions mentioned in that very verse. The verse relating to position of women in society comes during the last revelation to the Prophet i.e in Surah Taubah in which it is stated and I quote from memory , so please check it out "The believing men and the believing women are the awliyya i.e the protectors, comrades, allies and friends of each other" At- At 22:55 9/21/96 -0400, you wrote: >Michael Moore wrote: >> >>I just don't know what to do with Muslim women. I mean, If I am walking down >>a sidewalk on a nice sunny day and a Muslim woman is comming towards me, >>what should I do? Ignore her? Give her salaams? What? > >Salaam aleikum! > >Your question raises another: How do you recognize, in a heterogeneous >culture, a Muslim woman on the sidewalk? "I see by your outfit that you >are a Muslim!"? ;-) There are many different ways of practicing the >fundamental principle of modesty, besides those that are characteristic >of predominantly Muslim cultures. > >And another question: Should there be any difference in the way we >interact with Muslim friends, acquaintances and strangers, and with >friends, acquaintances and strangers from other faiths? I don't think >so. I do feel that we should greet each other with sincerity, warmth, >respect, and sensitivity. For those who share an understanding of the >meaning of the words, a hand to the heart and a warm "Salaam aleikum!" >is one of the loveliest greetings I can think of. > >MFKimball@aol.com wrote: >> >> I don't think it is a good idea for us to base our behavior on what other >> people will think. As long as you act out of integrity and honesty, what >> other people think is their problem not yours. Please greet women, if that >> feels natural to you, with confidence and integrity, rather than ignore them >> out of paranoia. > >I agree! > >Rabia > > ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 20:27:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: The Problem of Suffering (fwd) From: Zainuddin Ismail Subject: Re: The Problem of Suffering Salamu 'alaikum waRahmatullahi waBarakatuhu Life is khayal in the words of Ibn Arabi r.a and our dreams are khayal within khayal but both forms have meaning.The Prophet said and I extract the meaning as I remember it :"Humanity is asleep.They awake (to the reality)when they die." God is Good and His Creation serves His Good Purpose.Evil and suffering is something that one philosophises about but I have yet to get a complete understanding of this .Perhaps Rumi can come to the rescue here. Only poetry which is the highest form of language can provide illumination and Rumi's Mathnawi known as the Persian Quran is a great commentary on Quranic thought. ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 20:29:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Changes and Transitions (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 06:06:11 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from [Zainuddin Ismail ] >From habib@world.std.com Sun Sep 22 06:06:10 1996 Return-Path: Received: from stern.pacific.net.sg by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id GAA12887; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 06:06:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (max80ppp73.pacific.net.sg [203.120.80.73]) by stern.pacific.net.sg (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA24237 for ; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 18:05:40 +0800 (SGT) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 18:05:40 +0800 (SGT) Message-Id: <199609221005.SAA24237@stern.pacific.net.sg> X-Sender: sham@pacific.net.sg X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@europe.std.com From: Zainuddin Ismail Subject: Re: Changes and Transitions Salam.How about writing to Idries Shah c/o Octogon Press so that he can defend his thesis? At 22:16 9/21/96 -0700, you wrote: >Greetings Craig, > >> Shah mentions a lot of other things, but no sources, so it's not very convincing >> from an academic point of view. > >IMHO, it is not solely an issue of academia for me but rather that someone is presenting what are presumably facts under a mantle of spiritual authority which can not be founded on the evidence at hand. Because Idries Shah is who he is, and i have the utmost respect for his teaching and storytelling, his historical speculations in the realm of comparative religion are therefore charged by his stature. At one time, i also was very much taken with the historical romance that Shah offers us, but i find that much of what he claims collapses under close scrutiny. > >Here are my responses to Shah's points about St. Francis, as you listed them: > >> 1. St. Francis spoke Provencal, the language of the troubadors > >It was also the language of a lot of jerks and thieves and screwy politicians and clergy. So what. The other speculation that there is a direct connection between the troubadors and the Sufis is not an established fact. Because there are similarities between various spiritual traditions does not necessarily postulate a direct influence or transmission of one on the other. Didn't Jung try to describe such synchronization in history via his theory of a collective unconscious? > >> 2. He was a troubador and poet before starting the Franciscan order > >No evidence to support this whatsoever, and i do not recall anything like this in St. Bonaventure's Life of St. Francis. > >> 3. Some of his poetry resembles Rumi's > >This proves nothing - and personally i find no resemblance. Besides, was Rumi ever translated into Provencal in the middle ages? One in a billion likelihood. And can we really believe Francis knew Persian well enough to read Rumi to assume imitation? Moreover, Francis and Rumi were alive at the same time. Rumi was not only unknown to Europe but even to Muslim Spain then. Also, Francis followed a strict imitatio Christi of celibate, radical poverty through-and-through which was quite at odds with the religious behavior of Sufism. > >> 4. He travelled extensively in Spain, where Islam was a major influence and >> there were many Sufi orders > >Francis first major ecstatic encounter with God which would guide him for the remainder of his life of vision, ecstasy, poverty, the stigmata, and prophecy happened at the age of 25 before any travels. > >> 5. He travelled to Syria (hmmm. Syriac Christian influence as well as Sufism?) > >Any Christian visiting the Holy Lands would undoubtedly wish to make pilgrimage to the landmarks associated with Jesus's life, such as the Church of Mark where the last supper is alleged to have taken place and which has been run by the Syrian Church to this day (i happened to interview the patriarch of this church on the Syrian practice of the prayer of the heart some years ago). Francis would undoubtedly have met Syrian Christians of the Jacobite, Monophysite, Melekite rites who populated areas of Christian pilgrimage. > >> 6. He called his order the "Lesser Bretheren", while at that time the "Greater >> Bretheren" was known to be a Sufi order. > >i've never seen such a designation of "Greater" referring to the Brethren. If it is the historical Ikhwan al-Safa (the Brethren or Fellowship of Purity) from Basra that Shah is trying to make an association with, then it would not be correct to identify them with the classical Sufi tariqas because the Ikhwan were heavily influenced by Ismaeli Shi'ia and were a group unto themselves. On the other hand, the epistles (or some of them) of the Ikhwan were known by Ibn Arabi during his days in Spain. But the Ikhwan as a circle of initiates seems to have been limited to the Middle East. > >> 7. The caped frock worn by members of the order was identical to that worn >> by some Sufi orders in North Africa and Spain (?) > >i'm assuming you are referring to "cap" like a hood instead of "cape". This would have to be researched. Frocks with hoods were worn by monks long before Francis. > >> Did Syrian Christianity have a big influence on the ultimate form of the Catholic >> church? > >I would suspect the ideas of Syrian Christianity (especially via the corpus of texts composed under the pseudonym Dionysius the Aeropagite which now seem to have been composed by a Greek-speaking Monophysite Syrian mystic influenced by the late neoplatonism of Proclus in Alexandria) had some place in its shaping (especially through Thomas Aquinas). And of course the Dionysian writings were a major source of inspiration for Meister Eckhart, the author of the Cloud of Unknowing (the title of this text is taken from Dionysius), Erigenia, the Rhineland mystics, the Victorines, Jacob Boehme, the Italian Renaissance alchemists such as Pico and Ficino, etc. But so did Manichaeism due to the traces of it found in St. Augustine's works (especially the Two Cities). Otherwise, any direct influences would at best be very minimal since Syrian Monophystism and Nestorianism were both condemned before the shaping of what we now know as the Catholic Church. > >> Have you found any direct connections between Syrian Christianity and what >> ultimately became known as Sufism? > >i feel i have, but please accept my apologies that i do not feel compelled at this time to share very much about it because it remains part of my ongoing research, and especially with some 4th through 7th century Syrian Christian mystics who have written about a group of "perfected ones" known as the Friends of the Pact. The last historical reference i found of this Christian mystic group is by a Nestorian mystic near Mosul in modern day Iraq. > >> I find the idea that Sufism predated Islam very appealing, perhaps even an >> intuitively obvious truth, yet others in this list (yourself included?) would say that >> this is nonsense. > >i hope i am able to convey my difference between what my personal belief may be (ie. that Sufism predates the arrival of the Prophet Mohammad, pbuh) and what the historical evidence seems to point to (ie., Sufism as an outgrowth of Islamic piety). In addition, when approaching this from esoteric principles, it seems important to differentiate what are influences/adaptations in a cultural/social context from what is spiritual transmission from one tradition into another. The former we can determine from historical records such as literature and archeology; however, the latter, transmission, is not something to be determined horizontally but only vertically. The crux of the issue is really being very clear about this differentiation before proclaiming far-reaching conclusions. So although i feel very comfortable in stating that Syrian Christianity influenced early Sufism, i can not venture into the realm of saying that there was an esoteric transmission of Syrian spirituality into Islam. > >Blessings > >Nur > > > > > > ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:30:50 +0800 Subject: Re: Woman greeting men Someone wrote from Moscow, Idaho: >Usually though Moscow is a very safe place to live and I feel fortunate to >live here. And if it is night and I don't trust what i see i invariably walk >on the other side of the street, or am just a little more careful. My friend >John use to tell me when he saw a woman coming down the street towards him >at night, he would deliberately walk on the other side of the street when >approaching just out of courtesy to her. I think this is rare sensitivity as >a man. Any other thoughts about this. >Kaffea Lalla > Of all names, why did they choose to name the town, Moscow? Are all the men there behaved like John? salam maarof ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 20:32:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Take My Hand (poem) (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 17:37:15 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Non-member submission from ["Steve Phillips" ] >From habib@world.std.com Sun Sep 22 17:37:14 1996 Return-Path: Received: from transprt.com by europe.std.com (8.7.5/BZS-8-1.0) id RAA09497; Sun, 22 Sep 1996 17:37:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by transprt.com from localhost (router,SLmail95 V2.1); Sun, 22 Sep 1996 16:36:54 GMT Received: by transprt.com from transprt.com (166.82.247.104::mail daemon; unverified,SLmail95 V2.1); Sun, 22 Sep 1996 16:36:52 GMT From: "Steve Phillips" To: Subject: Take My Hand (poem) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 17:36:46 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19960922163654.0177e52d.in@transprt.com> Take My Hand Come with me where the pastel evening gathers whispers from afar, gathers spirit beings from another land, another time and watch the floodwaters of love rise and overflow the riverbanks and spread far out into the countryside. We shall see the river flowing into third story windows a whole world of roads, houses and cars submerged; tree tops peek above the surface, nervous birds chatter continually, amazed at this improbability. You and I will sit on the rooftop of a house and cherish what is in our hearts. Why should we worry about television sets and porcelain dishes, why worry about chairs and carpets and leather shoes. Why should we think of such paltry things when the whole spectacle of god's love is flowing everywhere with such beautiful abandon, calling to us to be free, to let go, to dive into the extravagant waters like sleek cormorants. Don't hold back, for the love in your heart is deeper even than the flooding river, let it flow over every soul you meet, the starving child and the greedy business man, the hollow rapist and the laborer shuffling bent over, the coughing diseased man with red eyes, the impoverished woman, and her scrawny son, even the murderer about to commit unthinkable acts, let your love wash them all and make them whole. Take my hand, we'll jump in with a blessing on our lips for the One who teaches us love, for the One who shakes our bodies like a rattle, so that we can learn to dance. In the water, we become water, lost in love, we become love, and abandon ourselves at last to each other. ------------------------------ From: mmm@indo.net.id (M. M. Medeiros) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:52:49 -0700 Subject: Re: Saytan having sex with one's wife [Re: to Jinavasma re: sex in full moon Greeting, Noordin, and peace, Please can you tell me what the pre-sexual activity verse is? Need this info badly. All best, Mansur = ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 12:22:24 +0800 Subject: Re: Take My Hand (poem) (fwd) Salam Steve, I like your gentle and soothing (compassionate?) observation of events. Can you provide the background to this poem? Do you write it in the middle of the night etc? I like to know more. Thank you maarof - --------------------------------- Take My Hand (by Steve Phillips) Come with me where the pastel evening gathers whispers from afar, gathers spirit beings from another land, another time and watch the floodwaters of love rise and overflow the riverbanks and spread far out into the countryside. We shall see the river flowing into third story windows a whole world of roads, houses and cars submerged; tree tops peek above the surface, nervous birds chatter continually, amazed at this improbability. You and I will sit on the rooftop of a house and cherish what is in our hearts. Why should we worry about television sets and porcelain dishes, why worry about chairs and carpets and leather shoes. Why should we think of such paltry things when the whole spectacle of god's love is flowing everywhere with such beautiful abandon, calling to us to be free, to let go, to dive into the extravagant waters like sleek cormorants. Don't hold back, for the love in your heart is deeper even than the flooding river, let it flow over every soul you meet, the starving child and the greedy business man, the hollow rapist and the laborer shuffling bent over, the coughing diseased man with red eyes, the impoverished woman, and her scrawny son, even the murderer about to commit unthinkable acts, let your love wash them all and make them whole. Take my hand, we'll jump in with a blessing on our lips for the One who teaches us love, for the One who shakes our bodies like a rattle, so that we can learn to dance. In the water, we become water, lost in love, we become love, and abandon ourselves at last to each other. ------------------------------ From: "M.I.S. DEPT" Date: Sun, 22 SEP 96 21:57:27 Subject: Re: Saytan having sex with one's wife [Re: to Jinavasma re: sex in full moon Salam Mansur, You may have missed my earlier posting on the dua before intercourse. I post it here again. It reads : Allah humma jannib nash shaitana wa janni bish shaitana ma razak tana Salam Noordin ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:02:21 +0800 Subject: Re: to greet or not to greet women Assalamualaikum Farid and Michelle, Thanks for such an informative posts on the Muslim activities in your respective areas. I live quite near to a surau (it is actually a mosque, but in Malaysia a mosque is where Friday prayer is held). It is quite big and can hold about a thousand people. The prayer hall is situated at the 2nd floor, while the below it are the offices and classrooms for 5-6 yrs old. There's also a big garden in the surau compound. However the "most" important part of the surau, where there is lot of mingling between men and women is the "kitchen area". Cooking sometimes done outside, and most of the time it is the men who cook. Almost every Saturday there will be cooking activity, and usually just for a simple reason of the surau having the weekly talk by guest speakers (always men). There are talks by women, but they are for women only. Sometimes I think it is rather comical that in the prayer hall, there is segregation (with curtain), but in the kitchen (eating department) it seemed everyone is happily shouting, talkative and cracking jokes. I think this human nature, we sometimes pretend to be pious in front of God (in prayer hall) but showed our true selves in front of food. salam :) maarof On Sun, 22 Sep 1996, Farid wrote: > >On Sat, 21 Sep 1996 MFKimball@aol.com wrote: > >> I find that it is very uncomfortable for me to be in mosques where men tend >> to act as if there are no women in the room. The very sad truth is that most >> mosques I have been to have been like this. I can imagine what it must have >> felt like for blacks when racism was so prevalent, and they were treated like >> non-people. It must have been similar to the Muslim gatherings I have been >> to. Even in some Sufi gatherings I have experineced this. When a few of us >> were gathering to leave the house where a Naqshbandi-Haqqani Sufi gathering >> took place, the host and his teenage son said goodbye to my husband, but not >> me. My gosh, to say goodbye is not a sexual act! I believe we are only >> fooling ourselves if we think this is not a form of discrimination against >> women. >> >> I recall the Prophet is said to have greeted people with a like greeting or >> one better than they had greeted him with. > >Assalamu alaikum, Michelle, > >Sometimes this behaviour is cultural.... Allah knows best if it is a form >of discrimination against women - to me, I think it probably depends on the >cultural context. In some cultures, it might be seen as such, in other >cultures, perhaps not, since in those cultures the women perhaps also do >not greet the men, Allah knows best (i.e. it wouldn't just be one way).... > >In our Islamic society at university, there was/is always a curtain >separating the women from the men. I felt this might be a form of >discrimination against women, perhaps, since maybe they couldn't see the >speaker etc. When I investigated further, to my surprise, I found out >many Muslim women liked the curtain, since it gave them a feeling of >privacy. > >Wassalam, > >Fariduddien > > > > ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #154 *****************************